The time has come to force a change

once again I sat and watched as the ITA CRX's and now ITA Civics mopped up the ITS field at buttonwillow and Sears point(also new track record first time out), are they illegal? I dont think so.. yes some of them are very good drivers but dosnt account for beating very good ITS RX7 drivers that have been at it for several years.. these cars HAVE BEEN MISCLASSIFIED and its time we stood up to SCCA and force them to move them to ITS or change the weight in ITCS. one person can do little, we as a large group can inundate the comp board with email for this change and not stop until its done. I will put together some letters to the board in different wording, you guys pick one, change whatever you like and email them on to the address below. any good suggestions for the letters just copy, change, repost here so all can view for their own use.

[email protected]

oh and one more thing, be sure to put your SCCA member number next to your name so they can verify all the letters are not coming from one source.

------------------
Daryl Brightwell
ITA Mazda #77
SFR, NORPAC
CSCC, SOPAC

[This message has been edited by 7'sRracing (edited September 03, 2002).]

[balz]

Best thing that ever happened down here(SEDiv) to that point was the creation of IT-7. It levels the field somewhat and provides for a lot of fun competition.

Ask Sam Henderson what he did to make the local region realize that a change was needed. It is a "neat" story.



------------------
Balz
#67 IT-7
www.balz.myip.org
"I live my life one Apex (seal) at a time"

[RacerBowie]

Forget about the CRXs.... the new "car to have" in ITA seems to be the 240sx. The fastest one at Rd. Atlanta this weekend was running with the E36 BMWs in ITS! Granted this is a car that is prepared to the limit of the rules with a very good driver, but MAN, that is over 2 seconds a lap ahead of the rest of ITA!

[racer14itc]

What about the guys who have built and are racing ITA CRX's and Civics? Don't they have a say in this?

While I don't agree with the socialistic, feel-good philosophy of IT7 (an ITA car) and Spec Miata (another ITA car), if it makes more people want to race them then that's a good thing.

For those of you who are discontented with the "we won't guarantee your car competitiveness" in IT racing, have you though about limited prep production? There, competition adjustments are allowed and the prep level isn't much more than an all out IT car.

Mark Coffin
a.k.a. racer14itc
#14 GP VW Scirocco

"What about the guys who have built and are racing ITA CRX's and Civics? Don't they have a say in this?"

NO, they have rooms full of trophys and track records already, they ARE competitive in ITS now, what part of "misclassified" dont you understand?.
I have nothing against anyone, SCCA just made a mistake as they have reclassified cars in the past so should they now.

Event: Dbl Regional 5/25/02, 5/26/02
Run: Group 5 RACE Sun Official
Date: 5/26/2002
Time: 11:47:00 AM

Pos. No. Name Laps Total Diff. Time Best Laptime In Lap Speed Class Region/Hometown Car/ Color Reg. No. CL
1 68 Kurt Sollberger 19 26:36.3 01:16.6 4 78.413 T1 CC Laguna Beach Dodge 00 Black 274524 1

2 2 Brian Winch 19 27:09.4 33.072 01:18.8 5 76.822 ITS SD San Diego Mazda/Black 19419 1
3
1 Dennis Parker 19 27:16.5 40.227 (best lap)01:19.1 4 76.486 ITS CC AZ /Parker,AZ Mazda/ Black 236262 2

4 10 Bernardo Martinez 19 27:28.3 52.008 (best lap) 01:18.8 5 75.939 ITA CC /Redondo Beach Honda/ Red 2908 1

5 83 Lerner Preston 19 27:31.1 54.772 (best lap)01:19.8 13 75.812 ITS CC Burbank Nissan/ Red 237642 3

6 22 Raffi Kazanjian 19 27:35.8 59.481 (best lap)01:20.5 13 75.597 ITA CC VW/ Blue

Event: DBL Reg CSCC/SD 6/29-30/02
Run: Race Group 1 Sunday Official
Date: 6/30/02
Time: 11:34:00 AM

Pos. No. Name Laps Total Diff. Time Best Laptime In Lap Speed Class Region/Hometown Car/Color Reg. No. CL
1 10 Bernardo Martinez 18 29:38.5 01:36.7 2 91.088 ITA CC /Redondo Beach Honda/ Red 2908 1

2 6 Roger Sather 18 29:39.5 0.992 01:37.0 2 91.037 ITS CC/SD/NV/ San Diego Mazda/Silver 219993 1

3 13 Rich Hays 18 29:39.8 1.253 01:36.9 2 91.024 ITA CC Honda /Yellow 247674 2

4 2 Brian Winch 18 29:42.0 3.504 01:37.2 3 90.909 ITS CC /Escondido Mazda/ Black 149519 2

5 19 Steve Ellsworth 18 29:54.5 16.038 01:38.3 5 90.274 ITA CC Redondo Beach Honda White 304204 3

6 29 Mark Kalemkiarian 18 30:05.9 27.376 01:38.2 3 89.707 ITS


Event: Dbl Regional 5/25/02, 5/26/02
Run: Group 5 RACE Official
Date: 5/25/2002
Time: 11:59:00 AM

Pos. No. Name Laps Total Diff. Time Best Laptime In Lap Class Nat. Additional Data Reg. No. CL
1 6 Roger Sather 19 25:55.1 01:18.6 14 ITS CC/SD/NV/ San Diego Mazda/Silver 219993 1

2 1 Dennis Parker 19 25:57.6 2.461 01:19.1 17 ITS CC AZ /Parker,AZ Mazda/ Black 236262 2

3 10 Bernardo Martinez 19 25:59.5 4.356 01:19.1 12 ITA CC /Redondo Beach Honda/ Red 2908 1

4 83 Lerner Preston 19 26:13.2 18.054 01:19.7 9 ITS CC Burbank Nissan/ Red 237642 3

5 0 Alan Ward 19 26:14.6 19.468 01:19.3 17 ITS CC West Covina Nissan Tan 224426 4

6 14 Scott Kuhn 19 26:22.0 26.882 01:20.3 2 ITS

[racer14itc]

According to results at the ARRC (admittedly not a perfect sample but closest thing we have to common variables in the experiment), the fastest ITA CRX's are quite a bit behind the fastest ITS cars. So I don't see them changing the classifications.

Good luck with your letter writing campaign, though, Daryl.

MC

[lateapex911]

I would certainly agree that the world has been turned upside down in IT land by recent classifications. And then, just to throw salt in the wounds, the free ECM rule comes along, which benefits mostly those who didn't need it!

But, and I'm sure some who know me will be surprised to see this in writing, I don't think moving the CRX and the 240 to S is the solution. What then do you do with the all dominant BMW? Move it to...........? I hear your case, but I think that at different tracks the results are different....but not different enough that the cars aren't overdogs.

And in the future, what happens when the Shogun 4000 is classed in B and whumps the B class? Move it to A where it will be mid pack?

There needs (desparately) to be a mechanism to re-adjust cars that exceed the performance the Comp Board expects when they classify models initially. I think the BMW is a great example, and the CRX and 240 as well, to a lesser degree.

I would prefer that we draft a letter as a whole, and get it signed by all the guys at the track, that petitions the board for a CHANGE in PHILOSOPHY. A philosophy that allows post classification adjustments to fix grevious errors. Not to the level of Prod or GT, but on a limited, and tightly controlled basis.

The suggestion would be to create once a year adjustment periods for cars after the initial classifications, where obvious overdogs are brought back in check, with the mechanism being the ubiquitous weight adjustment. Too many people lose hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars when their cars are relegated to the midpack at the introduction of a misclassed new model.

And yes, I'm fully aware of the first line of the bible..."Thou shall not be guaranteed competitiveness". Maybe not...but we should be protected from getting burned.

Low cost, competitive and fun racing is the category philosophy....it should NOT be another car of the year category !

Of course, I would not expect the drivers of cars that get an extra 50 lbs or so to be happy, but the goal should be to keep these cars at the front....just not two seconds a lap out in front! The downside to those drivers is far smaller than the downside to the entire class if the situation is left as is.

And no, the limited prep Prod route is not a good solution.....many guys work on their cars enough, and don't want to add more time to that, and the thought and expense of going to slicks turns them off as well.

I've made the case before that the "no comp adjustments" philosophy argument is already bunk, as rule changes such as the ECM rule shuffle and adjust the competitive deck. And I feel strongly that to not allow the Board a "second chance" at properly classification, based on the existing, and flawed philosophy, is doing a disservice to the membership.

Time has come to re-examine the foundation, before the building caves in.


PS....this thread might be better in Rules and Regs"

------------------
Jake Gulick
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited September 03, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited September 03, 2002).]

[balz]

Well said. I actually would love to run my IT-7 in the bigger pack of ITA cars. But I would also like to be more competitive doing it. I like the "low cost" approach to racing. But I have to be honest...I am probably pretty spoiled being able to run in a class that is pretty even.

It is honestly one of the reasons I chose to run in that class.



------------------
Balz
#67 IT-7
www.balz.myip.org
"I live my life one Apex (seal) at a time"

[Quickshoe]

Yes Daryl it is probably time for a change.

Maybe you should buy a CRX or 240SX or change your car to a Pro7/Spec7/IT7. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
(If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.)

Looking at results within Cal Club, Bernardo is very fast at every track he visits. He often only has 1, if any, ITS cars finish in front of him. The typical response is "well the ITS field must have been weak." I disagree, I don't know what is 'unique' about our tracks but his times at Willow are less than .5 second off the ITS track record, which has stood for 5+ years. His times are within the same second as GT5 and FV records. Over 3 seconds a lap faster than the ITB record. My hat's off to him, he's done his homework.

As far as the "guarantee competitiveness line..." it is there so that they have a response to deny reclassification pleas. If the idea was not to attempt to make it an even playing field why not just make one IT class?

edited for content




[This message has been edited by 7'sRracing (edited September 04, 2002).]

[lateapex911]

Daryl-

A couple points....

I think your letter should have a clear "call to action" that the comp board can respond to. I was unsure if you wanted to reclass the CRXs or if you are requesting comp changes.

I like the idea of the power of numbers, but I think that it will need to be actually signed, as opposed to "reported" results from a source such as this.

Maybe we can use this forum to state, and then refine a petition to the board that can be copied as information sheets, and handed to actual competitors at races. Once they have a chance to understand it, they can sign a petition which wuold be sent to a central administrator person, then presented to the board.

Keep in mind that this is the discussion of a MAJOR change, in an organization that is (in)famous for its galatial change rate. It will be an uphill and protracted battle. To that end, the strategy, as I see it is to pare the concept down to it's absolute minimum....the less change to the existing structure the better the chances of acceptance.

Also, I believe a IT advisory commitee already exists, so that item should be modified.


I think we should move this thread to the mainstream part of the board....

------------------
Jake Gulick
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Harry]

In an previous post I noted that the 1st, 2nd & 3rd place cars in ITC at the ARRC based on their lap times would have finished fourth, fifth and sixth in the ITB ARRC race. Everyone replied those Hondas were just well sorted with good drivers that can run lap time just short of the three fastest ITB cars. Your not going to convince me that out of 20 some odd ITB cars at the ARRC only three could run faster than the top three fastest ITC cars! It's not just Hondas in ITA!! In '95 our 510 bricks (Bad Al's & my 510)beat Rebstock & Clevelands Hondas. Today the Hondas are all running 2+ seconds faster a lap. I no longer race SCCA as we have 10+ races at Hallett a year in a local race organization that's 1/3 the entry fee with triple the track time. SCCA needs to listen up!!
Harry

[RacerBowie]

7's:

I strongly disagree with you! The CRX's have been dominant in ITA for the last few years, but the rest of the class has caught up to them... THAT IS LIFE! when they first came to ITA, they raised the bar for the class, and made it harder for the RX7s to compete. Life marches on. Even now a very well-prepared and well-driven 12A rx7 CAN RUN near (or at)the front of a decent pack of newer ITA cars.

I have spent the last 4 years developing the miata as an ITA car. Just now it is to the point where it can run with pretty much any CRX. Then we could talk about the 240sx, which currently dominates ITA at "horsepower" tracks.... that is fine, not all tracks are horsepower tracks, that is why most series are run at several tracks.

Isn't that the whole point of IT racing? Isn't that why cars are allowed in once they become 5 years old? New cars and new blood are good for racing. It has been impossible to buy a new 12a RX7 for nearly 20 years!!! Couldn't this just be a case of time marching on, and "no guarantee of competitiveness"?

I personally hope the competition board will pay little to no attention to your letter. I completely understand your feelings, but I don't feel your arguement is valid.

Bowie Gray
ITA Mazda Miata

[Knestis]

Consider another option - ask for IT2 to become a reality. Some considerations, in no particular order...

1. The CB has to be politically responsive to members and can't just piss off a bunch of car owners. Reclassification or 500# of lead will do that but a new class hurts pretty much nobody (except the race day schedule, perhaps). SM came to be because of this reality.

2. IT2, plunked between A and S solves the problems created by the ubercars in A and the unterhunds in S. Pull the Nissans and Hondas out of A and the rest of the post-1990 125-140hp sedans and hatches out of S, and you got yourself a race.

3. The resulting IT2 class would make a nice, homogenous field of cars, with similar characteristics - easy to police and adjust if necessary.

4. With the introduction of a new class could come subtle modifications of philosophy if, from the outset, weights in IT2 are TRULY defined by hardware configuration formula - rather than starting with stock weights and a Magic 8 Ball. Again, you are not changing things for existing cars.

5. The marketing potential of this option is also huge, although SCCA may just be too far behind the import car curve to ever capitalize on it at this point.

Food for thought...

Kirk
www.2litre.itgo.com (http://www.2litre.itgo.com)

Edit - PS: Based on the current (simple) iteration of the "Miller Ratio" formula, an IT2 CRX would weigh 2257# with driver.



[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited September 04, 2002).]

im listening, the reason I started here was to get all of your views before making a move.

[Karl Bocchieri]

One way to get some HP to compete with the other cars in the class would be port matching.
Why are rotarys not alowed to do what every other engine is allowed? Why is the SCCA so against this?
You ITA guys are not happy with what's going on in your class. Being a ITS driver I also see how the new rules favor certain cars at the expense of others in my class.
I think the BMW's will become the CRX's of ITS in a year or two. With the new ECM rules and 16" tires they just get faster.

What I dont understand is,
BMW's came with 15" wheels stock and 16" optional, 16" allowed for racing.
944's came with 15 in wheels stock and 16" optional, 16" allowed for racing.
RX-7 came with 15" wheels stock and 16" optional on the GTUs model, we get to use every high performance part of that package (axle raito, different trans ratio, low drag body pieces, ect) EXCEPT the 16" wheels. What's wrong with this picture?

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by Karl Bocchieri:
...port matching. Why are rotarys not alowed to do what every other engine is allowed?...

Here's my guess. The distance from the intake/exhaust manifold to the combustion chamber is close to an inch (by memory only). The port size and shape in a rotary engine are very much like valves and cams in a piston engine. The width of the port is like the size of the valve, the height of the port is like the duration of a cam and its timing. Allowing porting in a rotary would be like allowing any cam and valve size.

Rotaries also respond to some other mods more so than piston motors. They are extremely loud, therefore they have a very restrictive factory exhaust system. Simply pulling the stock exhaust and bolting on a good exhaust system can be a 25-30% power increase. No piston engines can do this.
If I remember correctly, I might have gained 7% on my MkI MR2, the header alone was about $400. Just means it was much closer to optimum stock.

So 'they' get to port match, 'we' don't. They get the ECU stuff, us 12a's don't, we get a 30HP increase when putting on a $130 header...

[dickita15]

a couple of years ago we asked the comp board to be able to just port the intake manifold like other it car but not the block on out 12a's. the comp board said no. in conversation after i was told that half the board thought it would not help us and half thought it would be too much. it was suggested that we would have to do testing of the changes on a dyno and submit the results if we wanted to try again.
dick

[racer-025]

7's;

I have to disagree with your views as well (on the ITA CRX thing). This is not just because I own an ITA CRX. I also own an ITB Suzuki Swift in which I am developing into a front running ITB car. Some folks want my Swift into ITA as well. But it's only a 1.3 litre. Seems quite ridicules to see such a small car in ITA.

I believe you should consider (theory) to move your RX7 down into ITA. I've been jumping up & down trying to convince anyone and everyone to move cars DOWN, not UP. IMO, I think moving cars up is crazy. With all the new fast cars becomming eligable for IT competition, all of them are getting thrown into ITS (hence IT2 - hi Kirk). Every 5-7 years, cars need to be moved into the next lower class. If we all know about this procedure prior to building/buying a race car, then it wouldn't be an issue. Those people racing ITC cars would move down too into a lower class. If the value of the car reduces as it gets lowered, so beit!

If this were the NEW IT rules, then the new, fast cars would have a place to race (competitively speaking). People would start building cars like the '92 Civic Si (125hp). IMO, this car should be an ITA car. The CRX Si should be a ITB car, and so on.

People - WAKE UP! cars are getting faster - much faster, not slower.

[balz]

Race -025....

Well Said....I agree with you....that is why there should be a new class recognized all over the country called IT-7.

Move us down from ITA to IT-7 nationally.

Living in the SEDiv is about like being raised in America. You don't know how good you have it until you listen to the issues in other countries (regions).

I think the SEDiv was smart to adopt IT-7. It is one of the quickest growing classes around, next to ITS.



------------------
Balz
#67 IT-7
www.balz.myip.org
"I live my life one Apex (seal) at a time"

racedude, I am in ITA now(1st gen rx7) and it would kill any known ITB car. sopac has pro7 so IT7 is out of the question. will probly go E/P if no change happens, possibly ITS 2nd gen rx7. just put a new motor in today that will be the real test against the hondas, cant do any more legally than has been done to this motor. we'll see.

[racer-025]

I stand corrected. I just assumed you had a 2nd gen ITS RX7. But here locally, a few years back a fellow had a National level 1st gen ITA RX7 that was very well developed. It was a front running car that kicked some very good CRX's including mine. It ran a 1:18.95 which is our local track's ITA record. That was 5 years ago. The best CRX did a 1:19.01 and I ran a best of 1:19.58.

So, I believe a high level RX7 with a quality driver could hold their own with the CRX's. And my main point here is that we should be trying to level out the field by moving cars down, not up. Good luck chasing the Rexes!

[balz]

You said it all when you said ... THAT WAS 5 YEARS AGO. Your "assumption" is correct, if you roll the clock back 5 years.

Balz

[Knestis]

I think that I have been sympathetic to the plight of the RXs in ITA so give some thought to options that, if it does become necessary to create new classes, doesn't create one-marque classes.

I appreciate the allure of taking variations in cars out of driver competitiveness but the club just can't support a spec class for every make. We also limit the number of cars in any spec class by telling drivers interested in other makes that they can't play.

If IT2 siphoned off the too-fast FWD cars (Acura, Hondas, Nissans) wouldn't that return A to something like the status quo? There are other newer cars that are a better performance match to ITA-minus-Hondas-et-al, that should be allowed to play but the top end of the curve would go away.

Something to think about.

Kirk