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four27
11-07-2002, 12:24 PM
Interested to know how my fellow GSr ITS cars are doing around the country. I am not seeing very many GSR wins in the Fast Track.
Here in PDX Ore I find my car is a best 1.5 sec slower than the Z cars and as much as 3 seconds. I seem to be able to stay with them in the turns but they get me by 4 to 5 car lenths or more on the straights. I think we are being penalized to much with the weight at 2690. I run 60 pounds of ballast to get to the weight with half tank of fuel. We have no E36 cars runniung out here.

------------------
Ron Cramer
#55 94 GSR
ITS/RS

spsspeed
11-12-2002, 12:58 AM
Ron,

Down here in the Southeast there are mostly fast RX-7s and then once you get into Atlanta and north a few BMWs pop up.

We have won at Sebring, Roebling Road and Moroso. Most of those are pretty good handling tracks, although Sebring (long course) has a few long straights.

A couple of the other GSR (there are a total of 4 in Florida that I know of) they have won at Moroso and Homestead.

We don't have any fast Z cars so I can't compare against them, but the RX-7 I think whoever gets the best run out of the turn will be the fastest at the end of the straight. The BMW on the other hand are just fast in a straight line.

Tracks like VIR, Road Atlanta and Daytona they will have an advantage. They also have a couple more years of development time in them and good tuner shops like Bimmerworld making some good parts .

All the GSRs down here have about 50-100lbs of ballast that does not help at all. But overall I think the car is a great car, super fun to drive and a few more tweaks here and there and we will be all set.

Scott Seck
#38 ITS GSR

Greg Gauper
11-12-2002, 09:54 AM
Nathan Bonneau built a very fast one earlier in the year and won a few times in Cen-Div before rolling it at Road America half-way thru the season.

He's been too busy as crew for Real Time Racing's WC effort to get it back together for the second half of the season.

four27
11-12-2002, 12:43 PM
Scott, nice to hear from you. It was the article in Grassroots on your car that motivated me to build my 94 last year. The Z cars are loaded with tork and are very fast on turns. the good news is I do well against them in the rain--after all we are in Oregon!. I have made allot of changes in my car for 03 so we will see.

Would like to trade some specs with you if you are inclined. Let me know [email protected]

Catch22
11-15-2002, 09:14 PM
Well, after running my 94 GSR with the NASA Honda Challenge last year I've decided to do a few SARRC races in '03 to see how well I can do. I'll mostly be running at Road Atlanta.

I too agree that the 2690 is wayyyy too much weight for this car. I ran NASA last year at 2620lbs (1/2 tank) and I'm a 225lb driver. Geez am I ever NOT looking forward to adding that 70lb chunk of lead to my car
http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/frown.gif.

I agree with Scott. The car handles great and is a blast to drive, but it has nothing for the BMWs and RX7s down a long straight. I'd love to see the minimum weight dropped to about 2600, we'd really have a fighting chance then.

I have not run an SCCA race yet, but looking at my lap times compared to top region ITS cars on the same tracks in similar weather, I tend to be about 2 seconds off the fastest cars. Of course, that was at 2620lbs...

If anybody wants to put together a petition to get the weight dropped, I'd certainly get in line to sign it. But since I'm a rookie I won't try to start such a thing.

Scott G., who will likely be bugging Scott S. for tips all winter long.

Catch22
11-15-2002, 09:15 PM
Well, after running my 94 GSR with the NASA Honda Challenge last year I've decided to do a few SARRC races in '03 to see how well I can do. I'll mostly be running at Road Atlanta.

I too agree that the 2690 is wayyyy too much weight for this car. I ran NASA last year at 2620lbs (1/2 tank) and I'm a 225lb driver. Geez am I ever NOT looking forward to adding that 70lb chunk of lead to my car
http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/frown.gif.

I agree with Scott. The car handles great and is a blast to drive, but it has nothing for the BMWs and RX7s down a long straight. I'd love to see the minimum weight dropped to about 2600, we'd really have a fighting chance then.

I have not run an SCCA race yet, but looking at my lap times compared to top region ITS cars on the same tracks in similar weather, I tend to be about 2 seconds off the fastest cars. Of course, that was at 2620lbs...

If anybody wants to put together a petition to get the weight dropped, I'd certainly get in line to sign it. But since I'm a rookie I won't try to start such a thing.

Scott G., who will likely be bugging Scott S. for tips all winter long.

James Clay
11-18-2002, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by Catch22:
I have not run an SCCA race yet, but looking at my lap times compared to top region ITS cars on the same tracks in similar weather, I tend to be about 2 seconds off the fastest cars. Of course, that was at 2620lbs...

But since I'm a rookie I won't try to start such a thing.


2 seconds off the fastest cars or two seconds off the fastest drivers in the fastest cars? Scott S. runs well with the E36 cars from what I have seen.

------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
James Clay
http://www.bimmerworld.com
Engineered BMW Performance
World Challenge/SCCA/BMWCCA Racecar Rental
Genuine OEM and Used BMW Parts
(540) 639-9648
-----------------------------------------------------------

Catch22
11-18-2002, 03:16 PM
I was referring to typical SAARC results. Excluding the ARRC, where the ante always gets upped a bit.

Honestly, I don't see a legal, 2690lb, ITS GSR running 1:41s at Road Atlanta regardless of who is driving it. I think Fowler's best Prelude time is in the 1:43s and it has about the same power and a TON more torque than the GSR. It weighs 10lbs more, so that is basically a non-factor.

four27
11-18-2002, 03:43 PM
I heard a story that when the jGSR first came out they had it in ITA. the cars reportedly won going away and the SCCA then decided to move them to ITS and put a weight penalty to them. They claim the VTEC is the equilvelent of a cam. that may be true but it still only has 4 cylinders. Not sure if this story is true. there is a huge debate on most of the chat rooms about redoing IT categories. I wrote SCCA awhile back on the weight issue and suggested they drop the weight to 2590 and see what happens. No response. the best thing we can do for now is share car prep info. Scott S seems to be the go to guy on that subject.


Ron Cramer
#55 ITS GSR Oregon division

James Clay
11-18-2002, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by Catch22:
Honestly, I don't see a legal, 2690lb, ITS GSR running 1:41s at Road Atlanta regardless of who is driving it. I think Fowler's best Prelude time is in the 1:43s and it has about the same power and a TON more torque than the GSR. It weighs 10lbs more, so that is basically a non-factor.

Unfortunately, RA seems like it will always be the track for the ARRC and if doesn't favor the Honda. When I raced Tom last at Charlotte last year, his car was very quick and finished the sprint in front of me. Different cars will be better at different tracks.

------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
James Clay
http://www.bimmerworld.com
Engineered BMW Performance
World Challenge/SCCA/BMWCCA Racecar Rental
Genuine OEM and Used BMW Parts
(540) 639-9648
-----------------------------------------------------------

Catch22
11-18-2002, 05:11 PM
I agree James. Different tracks, different weather conditions, etc., etc., are all factors.

And I'll admit that I have a certain inherent bias towards the GSR because I have one. But I honestly look at the package as a whole and can't understand why it is saddled with so much weight. I've heard the "SCCA is scared of VTEC" argument and I don't buy that. The del sol has VTEC...

In the end, as a whole package, the GSR is an example of a car that could be made more competitive with a serious weight reduction. It's a great car with good power, but it has no torque and weak brakes (the exact same brakes found on the Civic EX and del sol, both of which are significantly lighter).

I don't want ANY car, including mine, to have a big advantage due to arbitrary weight rules. That doesn't bode well for any of us. I also don't want any car to have a big disadvantage due to arbitrary weight rules for the same reasons.

The GSR (again, only an example as there are others) is a perfect example of a car that carrys ALOT of extra weight and hasn't really done all that well. At least not well enough to justify the extra pounds. Scott S. has some top finishes but he certainly has not been dominant by any means.

No, I don't believe you can make EVERY car competitive. But there is no sense in taking a car that COULD be competitive and throwing 100lbs of lead in it for no apparent reason.

I hope I'm making sense. It's sometimes hard to express yourself via internet board.

James Clay
11-18-2002, 06:40 PM
You make sense and I hear you. What is the answer - SCCA won't make a competition adjustment. Seems like IT has outgrown its intended size and these issues should be handled similar to a national class...

------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
James Clay
http://www.bimmerworld.com
Engineered BMW Performance
World Challenge/SCCA/BMWCCA Racecar Rental
Genuine OEM and Used BMW Parts
(540) 639-9648
-----------------------------------------------------------

il8apex
11-18-2002, 06:42 PM
Catch22- Yeah, the Comp Board seems to be "scared of VTEC," and it doesn't make sense to me either. Do you know a VTEC Honda (Del Sols included) that is competitive in ITS? My '93 Civic EX is a bit outclassed, even running at a race weight of 2305 lbs. If I had some brakes I'd be a lot happier...

Still anxious to see how the GSR fares against others, like the 2nd Gen RX7. I would think that the Acuras could corner as well as they do at any weight. Pray for short straights!

-T

Catch22
11-18-2002, 06:56 PM
I personally think that there should be a weight system that takes 3 simple factors into consideration. In order...

1. Power to weight
2. Torque
3. Brakes

In essence, what you would do is start out trying to get the p/w ratio of every car within a certain class within a certain range. Say 14 to 16.5 for ITS, 16.5 to 19 for ITA, etc. Then you account for torque and brake performance by giving cars with low torque and weaker brakes a further weight reduction (or add weight to cars with more torque and better brakes).
Its simplistic, but it's something. It's especially beneficial in an environment where there are no competition adjustments.
Let's face it. "No Comp Adjustments" is fair as long as you get things right in the first place. Saddling a car with too much weight, making it uncompetitive, and then saying "sorry, we don't make adjustments" isn't beneficial to ANYONE.

Now, there will always be the "how do you get valid power numbers?" argument. Sure. I understand that there will always be people who understate what they're getting etc., etc. But let's be honest. Everyone in the IT community knows ABOUT what each car is getting power wise. One top car may have 5hp more and another may have 5 less, but you can still get close enough to the ballpark to make things work.

It benefits everyone to have all cars evenly matched. At least as evenly as possible. It's no fun for anybody, even the driver of the dominant car, for there to be a dominant car walking all over everyone.
We (well, most of us) don't get paid to do this. It's for fun. Close competition is more fun for everyone involved.

N Bonneau
11-18-2002, 09:31 PM
My 2 cents! I believe that the GSR is about 100 to 125lbs to heavy. My car is over 150 LBS under with my fat ass in the car "250". The brakes on the car are way undersized for the class. I know that SCCA Hates with a passion VTEC. And will never give it any kind of adjustment. But there should be saftey issues.

Catch22
11-18-2002, 09:41 PM
Therein lies the issue. How do you demonstrate that it needs 100 less pounds and who do you demonstrate it to?
Is the fact that the car really hasn't been terribly successful in 2 years and everybody is adding 75 to 100lbs to get it to minimum weight enough? Would adding Grand Am's weight (2400 w/o driver) to the equation help? How many licks does it take to get to the center of a...

Sorry, got carried away again.

I guess (again) that my whole point is that I understand that not all cars can or will be competitive. But it benefits no one to take a car that could be competitive and kill it with an arbitrary minimum weight.

Knestis
11-18-2002, 10:35 PM
You might not have been around yet when we played with it but take a look at http://www.evaluand.com/it2/weightform.htm and see what you think. The factors are a little arbitrary and you can't compare cars weights under the current system with those using this hypothetical formula, but it can be interesting to play with other ideas.

I am working on a new system that considers displacement, valve area, and valve train type...

Kirk

N Bonneau
11-18-2002, 10:53 PM
I think that SCCA didn't get the weight right when they classified the car in the begining. It sounded to me like they did not have all the right numbers to start with and are not willing to rectify the the problem. It's just like they are so reluctant to classify the GSR in EP.

Catch22
11-19-2002, 01:42 AM
Kirk,
Why does your formula change the multiplier for Variable Valve Timing cars? I have seen multiple dyno sheets on Honda VTEC cars prepared to or close to IT rules and the VVT cars see no more gain than non VVT cars.
This misconception may be the root of the SCCA saddling the GSR with so much weight.
<Caveman voice on> "Oooooo... VTEC Bad" <caveman voice off>.

From what I've seen, Well built GSRs can see about 170 to 180 hp at the wheels (yes, I know all dynos and all cars are different, thats why I put a 10hp range in there. Trust me, it's close).
Well built, front running CRX Sis can see as much as 115 to 120 at the wheels.

Stock stated Si power - 110
Stock stated GSR power - 172

The VTECs gains in IT trim aren't any better than the completely VTEC-free CRX.

Fact is that the Honda VTEC powerplants are so damned good from the factory that there aren't really any big time LEGAL gains in there. Nothing in the ballpark of what I've seen on 13B rotaries.
Hell, a friend of mine took a stock 150K mile 13b last year and baselined it at 129whp. Then added an open air intake (homemade job), header and 3" exhaust with no cat along with some magic exhaust port tuning (I have no clue here, but the motor was never opened up) and the car dynoed up (same dyno, same weather) at 160whp.
You'll never see gains that easy and cheap from a VTEC Honda.

Now where's that nasty VTEC monster? Under my bed maybe?
Putting it in the same "potential gains" category as a rotary is a big mistake. But this thought process could explain alot.

mavis
11-19-2002, 02:18 AM
Gotta put my two cents in here since I'm thinkng of building a GSR. Some of my sources from England (pro touring car series with VTEC engines and factory support) indicate that 190+hp is do-able with the GSR. Will advise once more info available


Also, with EXTENSIVE experience with SCCA and Volkswagen I would advise against wasting time with any petition about weight. We tried for 2 years to get the weight reduced for the A1 GTI with absolutely no results despite wide-based support.

Finally, check out the results in the Northeast region. There's a guy who seems to beat most all of the BMW's on a regular basis at Summitt. (Fast lap nearly always as fast as BMW). Got to agree with S. Seck. Once these things are tuned they're gonna be fine.

[This message has been edited by mavis (edited November 19, 2002).]

Catch22
11-19-2002, 02:47 AM
190whp?
Legally doable?

I certainly am dying to get that information. Please keep us posted.

Scott, who'll gladly take a legal 20hp gain.

Knestis
11-19-2002, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by Catch22:
Why does your formula change the multiplier for Variable Valve Timing cars?

Based on the limited information that I was able to coax out of folks, that was the best estimate that I could come up with, frankly. Your point about the older-tech engines actually seeing more of an increase under IT rules is making more and more sense to me, as I get additional data. The Mazdas (12a vs. 13b) seem to support your theory. As always, garbage in - garbage out, so (everyone) please feel welcome to share your information.

Kirk

Edit - remember that any arguments made against hobbling VTEC might apply to other manufacturers variable valve tricks as well.

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited November 19, 2002).]

Crack Monkey
11-19-2002, 12:01 PM
Stock 12a rotary puts ~90hp to the ground.
SRX7 12a rotary puts ~105hp to the ground.
ITA 12a rotary puts ~125hp to the ground.

I do not know what a stock 13b puts out, but most SpeedSource cars put ~180hp to the ground.

The rotary can be tuned for more peak power, but sacrifice a LOT of power below 5500rpm. The figures I posted are what people actually use (The highest SRX7 hp I've seen is 107rwhp, but it had nothing below 6000rpm).

I only posted this since Kirk's multipliers were mentioned.

[This message has been edited by Crack Monkey (edited November 19, 2002).]

Catch22
11-19-2002, 03:58 PM
I've only seen one stock 13B dyno result and as mentioned above it was 129. This would be in line with the factory claimed 150 at the crank.

So... a typically accepted 50whp gain for the 13b cars (and I've heard some have more than that) and if you believe a GSR can legally get 190 (which I don't) that's still 10 less at 40 (I've seen many stock GSR dyno pulls, including my own, and they turn around ~150whp).
A more reasonable estimation of LEGAL (I keep using that word don't I?) GSR power is ~175. Only a gain of 25. Half of the 13B.

Same multiplier? I think not.

And I realize it applies to ALL VVT motors, but I still stand by my logic that any manufacturer that puts the effort into VVT is going to have a damned good head on the car straight out the factory door. The gains we'll LEGALLY (there I go again) see will be minimal. Especially in comparison to a 13B rotary which pretty much everyone knows was seriously choked down from the factory and can be worked for HUGE gains.

At the end of the day, the 13B cars and the Integra GSR are going to have about the same hp and very little torque. The RX-7 will however have better brakes. So, if anything the GSR should at least be the same weight as the RX-7 but I'd think it should even be lighter due to the brakes.

Yes, I am biased. But again I'm trying to look at this from a purely logical perspective. That being "What advantage does the GSR have over the other top S cars to justify adding 75 to 100lbs of weight to it?" I just can't come up with anything.

Chris Wire
11-19-2002, 04:17 PM
Kirk,

Please don't use the 12a/13b engines to draw any conclusions about pistons engines, they are far too different to be of value to one another.

Due to the rather loud exhaust note of a rotary, they are horribly choked off at the factory with tiny exhausts and restrictive cast-iron manifolds. That's why the rotaries respond so well to a very open exhaust, coupled with a good intake system.

The japanese piston engines, OTOH, tend to be very good in production trim (I don't mean Production trim), therefore they tend to see smaller gains from the same IT-type mods.

------------------
Chris Wire
Team Wire Racing
ITS Mazda RX7 #35
[email protected]

Knestis
11-19-2002, 04:25 PM
Thanks for the info, guys. Added it to the notes for future iterations of the numbers...

Kirk

(Still searching for the unified IT theory)

four27
11-19-2002, 07:03 PM
Would be interesting to see what the GSR's are doing at your track. Below is the track records at Portland with no chicane. My best time was 123.5 Weight off the track was 2710. Track is 1.9 mile


AS 1.17 Camaro
ITS 1.20 240 z
T1 1.16 Viper
T2 1.20 camaro
ITA 1.24 ?


The typical ITS winner will be 121 and change and usually is a z car. How do the spreds look at your track for these class's

Catch22
11-19-2002, 08:12 PM
My lap times are from NASA races and tend to be 2 or 3 seconds off the top SCCA ITS times.

Scott S. does a little better than me but also tends to be a couple of seconds off the fast laps of the E36s and RX-7s at places like CMP, VIR and Road Atlanta.
He does better down in his home area at Sebring and such.

Rob May
11-19-2002, 08:23 PM
Scott Seck is GOD. What do you think Mike? Just razzing.

spsspeed
11-19-2002, 09:27 PM
First off, if Rob ever thinks he is driving my car again he is crazy.

As far as the weight of the GSR this is what I have been able to put together and will send to the Comp Board.

First just looking at all the Hondas in ITS:

1992 Honda Prelude Si

NADA Weight=2866 ITCS Weight = 2715

Difference = (-) 151

1994 Honda Del Sol VTEC

NADA Weight=2491 ITCS Weight = 2360

Difference = (-) 131

1994 Integra GSR

NADA Weight=2667 ITCS Weight=2690

Difference (+) 23

Anyone see a difference there. Now look at the E36 BMW

NADA Weight=3020 ITCS Weight=2850

Difference = (-)170

James Clay who could probably verify the manufacurers listed weight, is that correct?

But all the GSR owners need to start a letter writing compaign to the comp board since the GSR is being singled out with added weight and there must not be a consistent formula being used to determine the ITCS min. weight.

The ITCS weights are suppose to be calculated based on a un-biased method and in the case of the GSR it has been singled out and weighted down.

Scott Seck
#38 ITS GSR

Knestis
11-19-2002, 09:37 PM
Having looked at weight issues for almost three years non-stop now, a couple of hints?

** Take a look at the strand about the Corrado weight adjustment in the VW forum. I was amazed that this worked (the approach has failed for a number of other cars) but the guy who got the weight lowered must have hit some kind of a nerve.

** Whatever you do, don't make any claims based on (a) lack of competitiveness on the track, (B) lap times of the GSR or any of its competitors, or © any other argument based on competitiveness. The powers-that-be will use the "no guarantee of competitiveness" and/or "no competition adjustment" hammer on you if you give it to them to hit you with.

** Argue ONLY for an "errors and omissions" correction, based on the case that the weight was incorrectly established in the first place. The data presented above is a good start, probably but it is still a long shot.

I will be rooting for you!

Kirk

Catch22
11-19-2002, 09:40 PM
My hero
http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

Seriously. It looks like a pretty solid case to me.
I'm in on the letter writing. Should we do it individually or as sort of a group petition?

spsspeed
11-19-2002, 10:16 PM
I will write the letter tomorrow and anyone that wants a copy of it can send me an email and I will forward them a copy of it that you can send.

And Kirk is right SCCA has made an error in the ITCS weight of the GSR or they have un-fairly weighted the car down, which they are not suppose to do.

Email me at:

[email protected]

Scott Seck
#38 ITS GSR

Catch22
11-19-2002, 10:53 PM
You already know I'm waiting on mine.

I'm sure I can come up with a few other Honda racers that would support the initiative.

krshultz
11-19-2002, 11:01 PM
I'm up for the letter-writing campaign as well. Don't plan on venturing out of Honda Challenge for the next year or so due to finances, but just the same, I'd like to see the car weighted appropriately.

Greg Amy
11-19-2002, 11:34 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I'm in on the letter writing. Should we do it individually or as sort of a group petition?</font>

Hey, while you're at it, why don't you drop my car in there too, Nissan NX2000 at 2461 NADA versus 2490 ITS weight (+29 lbs) starting with 30 less horsepower than you guys have...

<grin>

We're all in the same boat, guys. I encourage you to try, though, because your success will literally open the floodgates for everyone else.

GregA

LTBMotorsports
11-19-2002, 11:38 PM
Please and Please don't mention the ITS Delsol in your letters to SCCA because I am happy with 2360lbs and I don't want to add any weight.
Only if I can run 15'' wheels I will be more happy !!!!!!!!!
Louis B.

Mike Dunn
11-20-2002, 01:05 AM
Rob,
I am going to plead the 5th on that one!!

I am all for dropping the weight for the GSR, lets do it. And as for Louis, we need all the handicap we can get against you dude.

--Mike

Catch22
11-20-2002, 01:15 AM
Louis will never make that weight anyway. Too much ballast behind the steering wheel. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

Scott, who can say that because he has his own ballast behind the wheel issue.

Rob May
11-20-2002, 11:37 AM
Scott, let me know, and I will write one too. Maybe send me a copy of what you are sending, and I'll rework it a little.

four27
11-20-2002, 01:26 PM
Scott, sign my name to that letter.

Ron Cramer

#55 ITS-GSR Oregon division.

LTBMotorsports
11-20-2002, 04:01 PM
CATCH 22 look who is talking at least I am still 20 lbs. less than you !!!lol!!! as for getting the car to the minimum weight well I have to let you guys find out the track, you will be surprised with the number. Scott Call me 1-888-346 7266

Louis B.


[This message has been edited by LTBMotorsports (edited November 20, 2002).]

Geezer
11-20-2002, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by Knestis:
...The powers-that-be will use the "no guarantee of competitiveness" and/or "no competition adjustment" hammer on you if you give it to them to hit you with.


O.K. I'm coming in late and this has probably been beat to death before, but...

How can the concept of "No Competition Adjustment" exist in the same rules structure with different minimum weights for each type of car? Different weights for different cars is nothing but a competition adjustment. I'm puzzled.

[This message has been edited by Geezer (edited November 20, 2002).]

Knestis
11-20-2002, 11:39 PM
"Competition adjustment" means a very particular thing in the context of SCCA club racing - as the process is applied to the Production classes, for example.

Generally speaking, when a car is too fast or too slow (as demonstrated on the track, typically at high-profile events like the SCCA RunOffs), it gets bigger or smaller venturis, more or less weight, or some other "adjustment" to the "competition".

Kirk

JayLfrye
12-11-2002, 06:17 PM
Scott email me [email protected] and I send a letter to Topeka. My guess is the Integra is about 180 lbs heavy. But, I'd be happy if they took off 100 lbs. Or added 100lbs to the E36.
Jay Frye



Originally posted by spsspeed:
First off, if Rob ever thinks he is driving my car again he is crazy.

As far as the weight of the GSR this is what I have been able to put together and will send to the Comp Board.

First just looking at all the Hondas in ITS:

1992 Honda Prelude Si

NADA Weight=2866 ITCS Weight = 2715

Difference = (-) 151

1994 Honda Del Sol VTEC

NADA Weight=2491 ITCS Weight = 2360

Difference = (-) 131

1994 Integra GSR

NADA Weight=2667 ITCS Weight=2690

Difference (+) 23

Anyone see a difference there. Now look at the E36 BMW

NADA Weight=3020 ITCS Weight=2850

Difference = (-)170

James Clay who could probably verify the manufacurers listed weight, is that correct?

But all the GSR owners need to start a letter writing compaign to the comp board since the GSR is being singled out with added weight and there must not be a consistent formula being used to determine the ITCS min. weight.

The ITCS weights are suppose to be calculated based on a un-biased method and in the case of the GSR it has been singled out and weighted down.

Scott Seck
#38 ITS GSR

Will
01-22-2003, 07:30 PM
For all those individuals looking to build their own Integra GSR,,,you can not build one for less than what we are selling our GSR and be able to win right away.

The two sister Acuras from this stable of three have had great success in 2002.

Alex Ratcliffe beat many Type Rs in HC with his GSR from us....
and
Paul Dubinsky won an ECR event overall in ITS in his GSR from us....

Here are the full details:

ITS ACURA INTEGRA - Fastest GSR in the Country. Has only had 10 Pro Races: 1 Victory and 4 Podiums. Watkins Glen- 2:17, Mugen Shocks, 4-1 Header, Full Cage, $22,500 Contact: Will Nonnamaker (330) 497-4484 ext 23 or [email protected]

Includes: Mugen Differential * 4-1 King Motorsports Header & Straight pipe exhaust * AEM cam gears * Fluidyne Radiator * Oil Cooler * Brake Ducts * Screened radiator shield * Seatbelts * Race Seat * Auto Meter Water Temp, Oil Temp and Oil Pressure Gauges. * Set of 6 Volk lightweight wheels (9 pounds) with 225-45-15 Hoosiers, * Hawk Brakes front and rear * Comptech Brake Lines * Comptech Spark Plug cover * Comptech Battery tie down bracket * Removable Wheel Spacers * Extra long Wheel Studs * AEM Fuel Pressure Regulator * Mugen Rear Swaybar * Comptech Rear Swaybar Mount Brace. * Comptech Front Strut Tower Brace * AEM Long Air Tube, with reflective wrap * Full Welded Rollcage, with NASCAR style Driver's side door bars, and rollbar padding * Energy Suspension Bushings * Mugen Suspension Camber Links front and rear * Fire Suppression System. * Accusump System with Aeroquip hose and fittings. * Drybrake Refuling System with discriminator valve. * Mugen single Adjustable Shocks, front and rear. * Eibach springs * Lightweight Battery. * Camera Mount on roll cage * Momo Steering Wheel with Mugen adapter/extender * Front and rear tow hooks * Radio wiring harness, with push button on steering wheel * Wide angle rear view mirror * Hood pins * Metal plate in place of glass sunroof