Which Chassi is better?

[UltimateGSX]

My friend wants to build a new car, He wants to know which chassi is better a 92 HONDA CIVIC coupe or a 92+ HONDA CIVIC hatchback? In any way if one is better than the other we would like to know about it.

THANX

[Knestis]

Assuming that we are talking about building an Improved Touring car, there are a couple of considerations.

The first is whether you are talking about a DX or an Si/EX. Understand that members have to petition the SCCA competition board to have cars listed in IT, so not everything is always in the book...

The DX "3 door" (HB) and 4 door are listed - but the Coupe is not. They are in ITA and, while not completely outclassed, are not considered to be particularly competitive. There are a couple of guys who visit here who run the hatches.

The '92-94 Si (HB) and ''94-95 EX (Coupe, same engine as Si) are listed in ITS. They are not generally considered to be competitive either but I think they are cool cars, regardless. Take a look at
www.it2.evaluand.com (http://www.it2.evaluand.com) for some related info.

As a general rule of thumb, the lighter a car is in stock form, the lighter its rules-defined race weight is - and lighter is better. However, the Si is spec'd heavier than the Coupe, even though it probably starts life lighter. I don't believe that there is much to choose between the two options, otherwise.

Don't know if that helped at all...

Kirk

[UltimateGSX]

OK the car will be used in ITE so doesent matter what model it is si/dx/cx/lx it will have a different engine than stock. 1.8 B18C.



Originally posted by Knestis:
Assuming that we are talking about building an Improved Touring car, there are a couple of considerations.

The first is whether you are talking about a DX or an Si/EX. Understand that members have to petition the SCCA competition board to have cars listed in IT, so not everything is always in the book...

The DX "3 door" (HB) and 4 door are listed - but the Coupe is not. They are in ITA and, while not completely outclassed, are not considered to be particularly competitive. There are a couple of guys who visit here who run the hatches.

The '92-94 Si (HB) and ''94-95 EX (Coupe, same engine as Si) are listed in ITS. They are not generally considered to be competitive either but I think they are cool cars, regardless. Take a look at
www.it2.evaluand.com (http://www.it2.evaluand.com) for some related info.

As a general rule of thumb, the lighter a car is in stock form, the lighter its rules-defined race weight is - and lighter is better. However, the Si is spec'd heavier than the Coupe, even though it probably starts life lighter. I don't believe that there is much to choose between the two options, otherwise.

Don't know if that helped at all...

Kirk

[il8apex]

The hatchback has a better coefficient of drag. Build it.

-T

[Knestis]

...but make SURE that you know your region's ITE rules before you commit to anything. Some of them are oddly picky about things. If you haven't done so already (and you may have) you should visit the site of the East Coast Honda Challenge http://www.honda-challenge.com/ and spend some time in the road racing forums at Honda-Tech.com - http://www.honda-tech.com/zeroforum?id=19

Have fun!

K

[UltimateGSX]

WE allready have a 90 CRX with B18C running in ITE but want to build a newer body. like a the 92+ civic hatch or coupe, The CRX has a very bad weight distribution with the B18 motor in it most of the engine is hanging in front of the tires but the 92+ civic is further back thus resulting in better handling.



Originally posted by Knestis:
...but make SURE that you know your region's ITE rules before you commit to anything. Some of them are oddly picky about things. If you haven't done so already (and you may have) you should visit the site of the East Coast Honda Challenge http://www.honda-challenge.com/ and spend some time in the road racing forums at Honda-Tech.com - http://www.honda-tech.com/zeroforum?id=19

Have fun!

K

[jasonb]

Originally posted by UltimateGSX:
WE allready have a 90 CRX with B18C running in ITE but want to build a newer body. like a the 92+ civic hatch or coupe, The CRX has a very bad weight distribution with the B18 motor in it most of the engine is hanging in front of the tires but the 92+ civic is further back thus resulting in better handling.




I had no idea that a B series motor in a CRX was legal for ITE? How does it fare against the other ITE cars?

[dpmurray]

Legality depends on division. In the SE division this would be SPU. That also brings with it the need for Production or GT Car safety standards.

[UltimateGSX]

WE are in sopac division and its kind of competitive we got 2nd and 3rd numerous times. Vey fast car but still not enough to run with the turbo cars. Thats why we want to build on a more competitive chassi.


Originally posted by jasonb:
I had no idea that a B series motor in a CRX was legal for ITE? How does it fare against the other ITE cars?

[Knestis]

Originally posted by UltimateGSX:
...the 92+ civic is further back thus resulting in better handling.

This is all theoretical to me but it seems that, since you don't have to meet IT minimums in ITE (I don't think), the additional mass of a Coupe or HB would be a downside. I would be surprised if you can get one within a couple hundred pounds of a CRX, given similar lightening efforts.

Kirk

[happycorepuppy]

The coupe or HB will be significantly heavier than the CRX. Why can't you just add weight in the back of the CRX if weight balance is an issue?

[Knestis]

Physics is going to dictate that any balance improvement achieved by adding mass will be more than counteracted by the need to accelerate that mass - on throttle, brakes, and in the corners. I cannot imagine the trade-off being worth it on the watch.
Kirk

[UltimateGSX]

We are trying to get the car light as possible so it will go faster turn quicker. Why would we want to add weight to the car that is allready weighting in at 2350 lbs. We want to be under 2150 lbs. with a lighter roll cage and body components.

UltimateGSX


Originally posted by happycorepuppy:
The coupe or HB will be significantly heavier than the CRX. Why can't you just add weight in the back of the CRX if weight balance is an issue?

[Knestis]

Which is kind of why I am confused. I think it is safe to assume that, for any level of weight-loss effort, a CRX will be lighter than either a Coupe or HB - the effort required to get a Coupe to 2150 would result in a CRX that weighed what, less than 2000 pounds?

It's not my project and I am on record as not being an expert on the specifics of each year/model of Honda product but I would choose light over pretty much any similar chassis option.

I guess I should ask - is the engine actually in a different location, relative to the front wheel centerline, on a CRX and a '92 Coupe/HB? Maybe I am making some dumb assumptions. I am also operating on the understanding that there is no minimum weight for you guys in ITE. How confused am I?

Kirk

[happycorepuppy]

Originally posted by UltimateGSX:
We are trying to get the car light as possible so it will go faster turn quicker.
Then why choose a heavier car?

[UltimateGSX]

Even tought the CRX might get a little lighter the engine still is hanging too much off of the front wheels. We chose the coupe because it has better weight distribution the engine sits further back into the chassis. That’s why we chose that we could have chosen 94+ Integra too but that would result into even heavier car. So the 92+ civic is a better choice than a CRX It is closer to 65/45 weight distribution with the civic. And the CRX with the B18c engine getting like 70/30 weight distribution which one would you choose?

[/QUOTE]
Then why choose a heavier car?
[/QUOTE]



[This message has been edited by UltimateGSX (edited December 11, 2002).]

[Knestis]

Originally posted by UltimateGSX:
... And the CRX with the B18c engine getting like 70/30 weight distribution which one would you choose?

If the difference were more than 150#, I would go with the CRX but that is what makes racing interesting - different answerst to the same question. Have fun!

Kirk

[happycorepuppy]

Originally posted by UltimateGSX:
[B]It is closer to 65/45 weight distribution with the civic. And the CRX with the B18c engine getting like 70/30 weight distribution which one would you choose?
Well, I assume you mean 65/35. I'm almost positive the weight difference is much more than 100 lbs so I would just put 100 lbs in the back of the Rex and still be lighter with the same weight distribution. Actually, I would probably just run the CRX as light as possible even with the somewhat poor weight balance. IMO the power/weight would make up for it. If the heavier car was more like 55/45 I would agree with you, but not with this small of a difference.


[This message has been edited by happycorepuppy (edited December 13, 2002).]

[UltimateGSX]

I meant to type 55/45 with the 92+ civic not 65/45. sorry about the confusion. WE allready got a 92 civic coupe and the future looks great. A CRX will be for sale soon.

UltimateGSX


QUOTE]
Well, I assume you mean 65/35. I'm almost positive the weight difference is much more than 100 lbs so I would just put 100 lbs in the back of the Rex and still be lighter with the same weight distribution. Actually, I would probably just run the CRX as light as possible even with the somewhat poor weight balance. IMO the power/weight would make up for it. If the heavier car was more like 55/45 I would agree with you, but not with this small of a difference.


[This message has been edited by happycorepuppy (edited December 13, 2002).][/QUOTE]

[happycorepuppy]

Originally posted by UltimateGSX:
I meant to type 55/45 with the 92+ civic
The weight balance is really that good? I'm quite surprised! In that case, it really is a decision...