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Paul
08-05-2002, 10:38 PM
Hi All. I am thinking about what to build about a year out from now. One of the cars I am considering is the CRX for ITA. Does anyone have any advice about what model & options to start with and what to avoid? How are they from a cost stand point? I have run ITB and IT-7.
Thanks.
Paul

USGUYS
08-06-2002, 01:31 AM
Buy one; don't build one. If you must do it yourself, start with an 88 CRX-SI and install 91 front brakes and rear suspension and disc brakes. Budget for a Quaiffe diff and 4.73 final drive. The rest of the car is subject to much debate. You will start many treats as you get all kinds of advice.

Tom Blaney
08-06-2002, 12:33 PM
USGUYS:

I am curious about the conversion. Why use a 88 tub, is it much different that an 89-91, which has the rear disc that would warrent that much change.

I am running a 90 in ITA.

Tom

Chris Sawatsky
08-06-2002, 12:56 PM
the 88 is, I believe, 2-300 pounds lighter from factory, due to lack of side impact beams, and on US (as opposed to canadian) cars, no door mount seatbelt crap

I'm curious as to why switch to 90-91 front brakes?

B Breon
08-06-2002, 03:57 PM
Also, the 88 has a slightly different rear geometry that some find better for handling. Your results or setup may vary.

As for the calipers, what I have heard is it is getting hard to find competition pads in the 88-89 front caliper style as the pads for a 90-91 are different. I have heard the 90-91 style has more various options. Not sure about that. I run the 88's and the Hawk blues. I chose the 88's because rebuilt ones can be found for $20 vs. $65+ for the 90-91's. Piston size on both are the same as far as I can tell.

------------------
Brent Breon
Cendiv ITA #26
www.360racing.com

jasonb
08-06-2002, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by B Breon:
Also, the 88 has a slightly different rear geometry that some find better for handling. Your results or setup may vary.

As for the calipers, what I have heard is it is getting hard to find competition pads in the 88-89 front caliper style as the pads for a 90-91 are different. I have heard the 90-91 style has more various options. Not sure about that. I run the 88's and the Hawk blues. I chose the 88's because rebuilt ones can be found for $20 vs. $65+ for the 90-91's. Piston size on both are the same as far as I can tell.



Brent, do you know how the rear geometry is different? I have heard this from a few other people as well. What characteristics in the handling are changed?

TDRacing
08-07-2002, 03:20 AM
I think it has different real lower control arms. These arms were used in japan, but they were discontinued after 88 because the public commented that the car was kind of twitchy.

Tyson
08-07-2002, 04:20 AM
The 88-89 calipers actually are more practical as the pads are identical to later years of civics, whereas the 90-91 are only compatible with 88-90 Prelude S only.

The suspension of 88 are unique to the rest of the years, and yes some say are more desirable for performance (Honda even brought them back and used them for the Integra Type R). Im not sure if parts are equally available for 88 than 89-91, but I imagine they are.

Looking back, I would have rather built off of a 88 and updated parts as needed. But I think thats splitting hairs, but then again, we spends lots of money to split 1/10ths seconds.

Chris Sawatsky
08-07-2002, 09:48 AM
there's better shock availability for the 89-91 rear lower control arm style.

racer-025
08-07-2002, 09:56 AM
If you are to use an 88 model, I recommend upgrading the front brakes and the rear lower control arms to the newer model (89-91). The MAIN reason for this is because it is getting harder to find the performance parts for the 88 model. Many after market parts (ie; shocks, bushings/brake pads) have been discontinued for the 88 model.

BTW you can bolt on the lighter Canadian model doors to the US chassis. I've got 10 of them behind the garage just waiting for their turn for battle!

Jon Nelson
08-07-2002, 10:51 AM
Are there 5 cars without doors in Canada somewhere? I wouldn't mind having a spare shell someday.....

Jon

Tyson
08-07-2002, 03:01 PM
I asked around about putting 88 doors on my 90, and the response I got was that they dont line up well, very noticable gaps. Are US 88 and canadian doors different or the same and you are saying something contrary? I'd like to know. I need some ways of shaving weight.

Chris Sawatsky
08-07-2002, 03:20 PM
tyson, canadian crx's never came with door mounted seatbelts, so you can get a light(er) door that will fit your year of car. the 89-91 canadian doors still had side impact beams, though

Tyson
08-07-2002, 03:38 PM
right, so youre saying US 88 are the same as Canadian doors. but i was told 88's dont fit. but ill take racer025's word that they do indeed as confirmation that they do...

Knestis
08-07-2002, 04:09 PM
People just like to keep the rules NERDS busy, it seems...

Ignoring for a moment that Canadian clubs have adopted IT regulations, what rule allows the use of Canadian doors on an IT car running under SCCA sanction in the US? I think that the answer is "none" but if someone has seen something that NERD-boy here has missed?

Kirk

B Breon
08-07-2002, 04:14 PM
If the 88 canadian door is the same as an 88 US door and updating/backdating is allowed, I don't see why you couldn't put an 88 door on an 89-91 car. Unless it physically won't fit. But the key is the same as an 88 door. I mean, there are knockoff import replacment part doors out there that aren't maybe exact replicas in terms of seam seals, etc. but replacement parts are legal aren't they.

Now, if you want to put an 89-91 Canadian door on that doesn't have the door mounted belts to replace a 89-91 US door with door mounted belts, that might be a different issue.


------------------
Brent Breon
Cendiv ITA #26
www.360racing.com (http://www.360racing.com)

[This message has been edited by B Breon (edited August 07, 2002).]

Tyson
08-07-2002, 05:08 PM
Lets play True/False, help me understand this:

1. Canadian doors are the same from 88-91
2. US 88 doors are the same as 88-91 Canadian doors
3. US 88 doors fit US 90 crx.
4. You are allowed to use a car originally registered from Canada
5. Canadian parts are not legal in SCCA

Please number your responses.

slackerjay
08-07-2002, 06:20 PM
if i remember right, 89-91 front caliper piston is 3 mm larger than the 88. it's not much but every little bit helps.

~J

Knestis
08-07-2002, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by B Breon:
If the 88 canadian door is the same as an 88 US door and updating/backdating is allowed, I don't see why you couldn't put an 88 door on an 89-91 car.

...agreed, but the whole convesation started with "BTW you can bolt on the lighter Canadian model doors to the US chassis". Chris S. further explains that this is because they don't have the provision for door-mounted belts.

IF (and that is a big if) the Canadian doors were the same as the US-spec doors, then I would say bolt away - the result will be a car that will hit the track "as offered for sale in the United States". Evidence (and even recommendations?) here suggest that this is not the case and that there is an advantage to be gained using the doors from up north.

Tyson wants to shed some weight - don't we all - and he can do this within the up- and back-date rule, with US parts assemblies off of cars on his spec line, or parts that are the same as US parts. If the Canadian-model doors, regardless of year, are lighter than the US version of that same year then they are not the same. Using them would be cheating. Cheat-ing.

Any question about aftermarket parts would be a red herring at this point. If they are not the same as the OEM parts, then they would be illegal too. Am I the only one confused about why this is even being considered?

Kirk

Tyson
08-07-2002, 08:15 PM
Kirk, the point of using canadian doors is that they are source with a greater supply of 88 style doors. buts thats all assuming that in fact they are the same as 88, and that 88 do fit on non 88 cars. god forbid us for wanting to cheat.

are you missing the fact that 88 doors in the US ALSO did not have door mounted seat belts?

[This message has been edited by Tyson (edited August 07, 2002).]

Knestis
08-07-2002, 10:29 PM
Yes, I obviously am.

I should have prefaced my comment with "I don't know squat about Honda specifications, US or Canadian". I was taking the information in the strand as accurate (due to my lack of knowledge) and making an "IF" statement. It sounds like you and I are on the same page, Tyson, but I read (or misread) the earlier posts as saying that the Canadian parts were lighter.

I have now shanked two consecutive NERD shots into the kitty litter. I should switch to surfing porn sites since I am losing my touch...

Kirk

(who has now been demoted to NERD lacky, third class)

Paul
08-08-2002, 12:18 AM
Wow. I guess I opened up a can of worms.
So, if you all could do it again, would you get in to a CRX?
Paul

Jon Nelson
08-08-2002, 11:16 AM
There's one thing that might affect the whole legality of the update/backdate thing.

I'm not sure, but there was a minor trim difference on CRX's, I think at the 1990 model year. I don't know if the 88 doors are exactly the same as 89, or 90-91 doors.... the trim piece is slightly different, so the door skin itself might be slightly different.

As for the legality, I'd say, yeah, OK, as long as it's really an 88 style door you are after. BUT, 88's never had door beams, so you really would be better off (weight wise) with a set of true 88 doors, from either the US or Canada.

Canadian parts tend to be MUCH lighter, though, because of rust. I could hook someone up with a specially "lightened" body shell. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/redface.gif)

Does that make sense?

BTW, Kirk, don't get discouraged. At least you're trying. Just don't let anyone tell you Honda's came with carbon fibre hoods.

Tyson
08-08-2002, 02:43 PM
trim pieces dont make a difference in the sheetmetal. in fact, the fenders are the same for each year. you'll notice that the metals bends the same way, but in the later years, the trim is just smaller and doesnt cover as much of the detent, which actually gives the cleaner look.

racer-025
08-08-2002, 03:22 PM
Ok, lets stop the insanity. I do not believe you could legally bolt the Canadian doors on the 89-91 US car. This is because the 89-91 US cars did infact only come with the seat belt mounts on the doors. You could replace the 88 US doors with the 88-91 Canadian doors. I believe they are the same.

Now, let's throw the rule nerds a bone. SCCA does let us Canadian IT racers enter events south of the border using our Canadian cars that are built to IT specs. So, if I bring my 91 Canadian CRX into SCCA competition, lets say at LRP, doesn't that open up a can of worms to let ANYONE race the Canadian car? AND, wouldn't that allow any of you US folks use the Canadian model CRX and/or allow any doors put on your US cars?

Holy cow, we started something here, eh?

Type_RS_59
08-14-2002, 01:58 PM
I'm confused now. I have a 1989 CRX HF (US model) and I do not have door mounted seat belts. Does this mean that I also do not have door bars? Does it mean that Honda used the lighter 88/Canadian doors on the HF models to keep weight down because the car only had 62 HP. I have heard that the HF has 2.5 MPH bumpers which are lighter than the 5 MPH bumpers. So, is there a rule against starting with an HF shell? Or using HF bumpers?

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I have nothing clever or witty to say at this time...please check back later.

Tyson
08-14-2002, 02:22 PM
Racer, for the sake of discussion, how can you say that if canadian doors are the same as 88 US doors, that you cant use them in 89-91 car since it is under the update/backdate rule as i could put the 88 doors in 89-91 car? now this is assuming that 88 doors FIT on later US cars, which i have not got a confirmation from anyone here.

[This message has been edited by Tyson (edited August 14, 2002).]

Knestis
08-14-2002, 08:09 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">So, is there a rule against starting with an HF shell? Or using HF bumpers?</font>

The conversation started with the ITA CRX Si ('88-91) and the rules require that any car running under the specs from that "line" of the rulebook must start life as an Si.

Your '89 HF is actually listed in ITB, at 2030 pounds, which I had personally never noticed before. Things that make you go "hmmm".

Kirk

Chris Sawatsky
08-15-2002, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by Tyson:
[B] now this is assuming that 88 doors FIT on later US cars, which i have not got a confirmation from anyone here.

B]

they do not. slightly different fit

Tom Blaney
08-15-2002, 08:52 AM
Ok I give, do you guys like to inflict pain on yourselves.

Do you really go to all the trouble of locating canadian doors to save the weight of a few less BigMacs????

Do you really think it makes a difference?

Knestis
08-15-2002, 09:23 AM
No, but I like to get all riled up, screaming at my computer monitor, thinking about people doing it. Grrr. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/mad.gif

Kirk

Type_RS_59
08-15-2002, 09:40 AM
I can't believe the HF is classed in ITB at 2,030 lbs. What were they thinking? Stock, the thing weighs 1,800 lbs. and it can't get out of it's own way! I've gutted mine (behind the seats) and switched to smaller tires but there is no getting around the fact that it only has 62 HP, a 5,000 RPM red line, and breathes through an intake that you could clog with a quarter ($0.25)! The gear ratios are so widely spaced that it will do over 65 in second gear and 5th is useless below 70 MPH. Hey, at least I wouldn't have to spend big bucks on a LSD. It can't even spin the dry rotted street tires that are on it now in the rain.

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I have nothing clever or witty to say at this time...please check back later.

Tyson
08-15-2002, 12:52 PM
tom, its all for the sake of discussion. i like to know crx trivia. im a crx nut, if theres something i dont know about a crx, start convulsing and inflicting pain on myself and must go out and have a couple bigmacs if i dont know! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/mad.gif

Tom Blaney
08-15-2002, 01:37 PM
Wow, I guess I've been told

Greg Gauper
08-15-2002, 05:29 PM
So what do they call MacDonalds quarter pounders in Canada? Mac-Eighth Kilo burgers?

Tyson
08-15-2002, 05:33 PM
lol. way to bring it around full 360.

uscrew96
08-17-2002, 09:48 PM
nice one greg!

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Mike Machi crew chief USGUYS RACING

HiRcc#21
08-18-2002, 02:59 PM
Paul-
I would build your car. Shells are scarce, unless you have access or interest in buying an Si shell.
I have an 89 Si, and I have not had a problem with making the car light enough to compete.
Doors, brakes, blah blah blah, get on track with a Crx and the rest is all smiles.
The integra is supposed to be a crx killer, I have yet to see it, the 240 SX was supposed to kill the crx as well.
build a car and go have fun.
chris stiffler
neohio member since '89 and CRX ITA competitior and car builder.
****Just remember, use a lsd, final drive gear, and get a good stock bottom end, and use Dan Paramore Racing (dpr-racing.com) for your HP, and you will do well.
brakes are only good if you use them!
I use the 89 Si brakes and have developed a special pad with KFP (Canton, Ohio firm) and 3 inch ducts, no probs with them, no fade either, I use the stock 89 doors with Nascar door bars as well.
Unsprung weight is important, but if you throw the speed away in a corner or under braking think of the time you lost looking for "special" parts to make the car fast.
Keep in on track and in gear and you'll be just fine.
I love debates!
*** I have no friends due to my opinions. LOL

Gord Galloway
08-23-2002, 10:47 AM
I am not sure about the issue of legality for using the canadian doors however as long as you fell within your minimum weight why would this be a problem?

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Gordon Galloway
Honda CRXsi
IT2 #32

Greg Gauper
08-23-2002, 12:53 PM
Some people might claim it is a performance advantage to take the weight off high and outside (doors) and put it low and inside (ballast). Car still weighs the same, but a lower Cg and lower polar moment are usually a good thing.

Tyson
11-02-2002, 05:38 AM
btw, ive seen non seatbelt mounted doors (US 88, canadian, japanese) mounted on a US 89-91 chassis with no problems except removing the rocker panel hook and the upper B pillar-door supports.