Radical Stuff

[ChrisP]

I’ve been reading these forums for a while and they have been a great help . I realize my solution is not allowed under the IT rules but maybe somebody can shed some light on the solution to see how viable it is.
Currently I race a stock engine Canadian 87 CRX DX with 86hp and 84ftlb, and some suspension work.

I run in a series called SOLO 1. Anyway, the way our classification has been re-worked the CRX has become uncompetitive so I have been trying to come up with ways to bring the car back to where it should be and stay in the same class.

The solution that I have come up with is converting my car to a SI so I get Fuel Injection. From there I would like to bolt up a ZC head and use the ZC intake and exhaust manifold.

So my question is:
1) Will it work?
2) What kind HP would I be looking at, 110hp, 120hp?
3) Any idea what the compression ratio would be?
Do you know anybody who has done it?


Thanks for the help.

[EDP]

The way you should go would be to install the 1st gen '86-'87 Acura Integra motor and trans. Over in Japan this was the Si motor. 1.6 1st gen "ZC" motor. It is pretty much a bolt in, if you have a Integra parts car. Plus the Integra has rear disc brakes that are a easy bolt it, with no mods. There are a few Honda site that show this sway.

Ed

[ChrisP]

yeah i would love to go that route. However my rules count that as a engine swap so i would be put into another class. It would cost a total of 7 prep points.

Currenlty i have 5 to work with.

What i proposed will take 4 points....


So, will the ZC head bolt onto the SI block?

[Chris Sawatsky]

A few things. To switch from dx carb'd to Si fuel injected, you'll have to replace everything from the gas tank up. The ZC head will NOT bolt onto the Si block.
And I don't think switching heads is cool with the rules either, if you want to stay in low classes

[ChrisP]

"To switch from dx carb'd to Si fuel injected, you'll have to replace everything from the gas tank up."
Yeah i know that.....

"The ZC head will NOT bolt onto the Si block. "

Wierd, i've been told by a few people that it will. Can you give me some numbers to say that it won't?


"And I don't think switching heads is cool with the rules either, if you want to stay in low classes"
As i said before i can do this and remain in my class. The head swap brakes down like this.

-1point: Intake swap to ZC
-1point: Proformence or ZC header
-2point: head swap.


I would really like to get some numbers or something that will say that it will not work or it will work.

BTW, Chris, are you a member of Honda Racing.ca??

[Chris Sawatsky]

I'm assuming you're talking aboot the d16a6 Si engine from the 88-91 crx.
lay the headgasket from the Si over the ZC one, you'll see what's up. One headbolt doesn't match, and the forward oil passages don't match.

Yeah I check out hondaracing.ca sometimes, not so much lately. The banter over there doesn't interest me too much, I was hoping to maybe find some enthusiasts out in my direction (manitoblah) but no such luck
Only ones I care to chat with from here are the old men that I race with http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

[EDP]

The d16a6 Si engine from the 88-91 crx is the 2nd gen of the ZC motor.

The 1st was the '86-'87. Yes from what I have seen and read you can bolt the 1st gen ZC to a 1st gen Si block.

Ed

[ChrisP]

Chris, i am talking about the 87 SI motor not the 2nd gen SI.

"The 1st was the '86-'87. Yes from what I have seen you can bolt the 1st gen ZC to a 1st gen Si block."

Thanks. However it seems my plan will not work becuase with the ZC head on the 87 SI block it will mess the compression ratio to much to see any benifits. ARG.

I was told this by a respected engine builder. oh well, looks like i need to come up with another plan.


Does anybody have any other ideas? Maybe another head swap that will work?


I am reluctant to put Webbers on my first gen becuase of the cost mainly.

[CRXfanatic]

Weber 34 DMTR, and a nasty little regrind from Webcam.

Headwork: shaving and porting.

A .040 overbore and slap in some d16a1 Teg pistons, or get some high compresion Wiseco Si pistons.

Or any combo of the above, if possible under the rules.

[This message has been edited by CRXfanatic (edited January 24, 2002).]

[ChrisP]

"Weber 34 DMTR, and a nasty little regrind from Webcam."
yeah, i know they work well and provide some nice power but for $1000US.....convert that to canadian......riiiiiight
Don't i wish!

"Headwork: shaving and porting."
Thinking about it.


"A .040 overbore and slap in some d16a1 Teg pistons, or get some high compresion Wiseco Si pistons. "

Nah, anything to the bottom end would cost me 4 prep points, silly rules.

[CRXfanatic]

The 34 DMTR is like $325, and the regrind is $200, last time I checked.

[ChrisP]

is the 34 DMTR the Dual side draft carb?

if not then which card is the 34 DMTR?

[solo2crx]

The 34 DMTR is a single downdraft setup similar to the older 32/36 DGV Weber downdrafts. They run under $400 for the carb and any adaptor plates you might need for your stock manufold. The Dual sidedrafts you are thinking about is a Weber 40mm DCOE setup or similar cabs such as Mikunni or Del Orto. The manifolds and carbs for that setup get just over $1000 new. If you get lucky you can find either setup used or you can get a race prepped stock carb from OPM or Rivergate Five Speed. That option eliminates alot of the emmisions controls and vaccum lines from the carb and improves the jetting and such.

If you were talking about finding a motor that was ready to swap or a donor car to swap from, converting your DX to FI, and then swapping in the motor you really need to look at the dual sidedraft option again. With the cost of all that will be needed to convert, trust me there will be lots of little stuff that adds up, you will easily get close to the cost of the Dual Webers.

You would see a huge gain from swapping to a 1st gen Si head, a Dual Carb setup, and a nice cam. My setup has bottom end work but I have a friend without bottom end work and the above setup is approx 140hp on his car. He has not had it on a dyno yet but Gtech and basic math on 0-60 and 1/4mile times put it real close to that.

Converting to FI would be great as it will make more power more reliably in the end but bang for the buck on a CRX DX is still working with the carbs. A DX will require all new fuel lines, fuel pump, and a complete rewire inside and out to use the Teg FI and computer.

Jason F.

[ChrisP]

Thanks Jason for clearing up the carb naming.

I looked into carbs for quite a while but i just can't justify $1000us, that's almost $2000 canada by the time i get it here. Used would really be the only option. However i haven't really seen anything come up.

So how much power would the 34 DMTR or the Rivergate stock carb build up produce?


"You would see a huge gain from swapping to a 1st gen Si head, a Dual Carb setup, and a nice cam. My setup has bottom end work but I have a friend without bottom end work and the above setup is approx 140hp on his car. He has not had it on a dyno yet but Gtech and basic math on 0-60 and 1/4mile times put it real close to that."

The canadian DX comes with the SI head http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif
Does your friend have a web page about the car? ifso, i beleive i've seen it before and i e-mailed him a few questions.

One reason i was looking at converting my car to SI was what the compression test showed on my current engine. 160 180 130 180. With any option i have to do something with the bottom end.

Here's the point break down for the carb swap.

2points- 40 DCOE carb swap
1point- Intake manifold
1point- Exhaust manifold
1point- Cam
So that's a 5 point total which would be 'ok' except for the cost......arg i hope some used stuff comes on the market.


How well would this setup work without, say, the Header or without the cam? i would think that if you take 1 thing out of the setup you would see a major power hit as the stock unit would be the restrictor. But i guess a Port&Polish would also be nessary for a complete top end.

All it takes is money and us students don't have the bigest of budgets http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

[solo2crx]

I understand the budget crunch thing. I bought my 87 two years ago as a quick project for autocross and then Solo I/ITC down the road. Money and life got in the way and the car has not been on the street yet. I did spent the two years searching and rounding up the best deals on used parts I could find which turned out to be a good thing as the car will be much nicer when done.

The single Weber downdraft or modified stock carb will get you a little more power over stock from what I understand. I have not run one personally so I don't have numbers. I think the biggest advantage is getting rid of the vacuum and emissions rats nest of a DX (which you don't have) to improve the performance, throttle response, etc... of the car under race conditions.

I can't remember if there is a web page for the car I mentioned but there are not to many dual carb 1st gens out there so it is probably him, his carbs are Mikunni's. He goes by CRXFanatic and does come buy this board on occasion. It is a silver grey 1st gen and he lives in the Northern US.

I would think that if you had to eliminate one if the items from your point list that the cam would cause the least loss of power. If the Canadian DX head is really the same as the US Si head then port matching with the intake and header is a good combo. Keeping the cam and eliminating the header would be less effective as the header would really take advantage of the increased flow from the dual 40mm side drafts.

These are thing I have learned or picked up after lots of web surfing and talking with other owners and racers so I am no expert. This is just some info to help out a little.


Later,
Jason F.

[ChrisP]

Thanks Jason.

i'll post some more questions when i figure out exactly what i'm going to do.

[CRXfanatic]

Chris, you should really stop by http://www.redpepperracing.com there are a whole bunch of Canadian 1st gen racer types there. Much more feedback is guaranteed via the 1st gen CRX forums there.

[ChrisP]

Tom made the suggustion that i go there a while back. i just decided to try it out last night as i had some time.

[gti_inprogress]

Chris there are different ZC engines. The GOOD ZC can only be had from overseas. Its a twin cam that looks alot like the 88-89 integra motors but has a diferent intake manifold and probably cam profiles.

The 86-87 integra motors are different than the 88-89 integra motors. the later having about 10hp more. the ZC from overseas had about 20 more hp than the 86-87 integra motors.

I beleive the heads will bolt up to the block of your DX. I have looked into this same sort of swap, difference being going from the 87 si head to a twin cam head.

The combustion chambers of the integra head were much larger than the 87 si head, our main reason for not doing the swap.

Email me I have parts from my 84 civic that I had the ZC motor in that I dont need anymore. they may be usefull to you.

Jeremy [email protected]

[This message has been edited by gti_inprogress (edited February 13, 2002).]

[ChrisP]

Thanks Jeremy.

I think i've found something else for this season. Hope it works out.