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View Full Version : Anyone Building 92-95 Civic DX For ITA?



danielbeeson
10-23-2001, 11:05 AM
Just curious on building 92-95 Civic DX For ITA? Has anyone started? Do you think it will be somewhat competive?

downingracing
10-23-2001, 02:52 PM
Dan,

Let me know when you are ready to start yours... I'm ready to help! Have they determined which model(s) will be classed?

I think it will be fine in ITA. (As long as you stay out of the "crashing" - I'm over it now... really)

I just started my conversion. Interior is gone (almost). Know anyone looking for good EX interior parts? Nice power sunroof, Pass. seat, back seat... Just looking for $$$$ to get the rest of the car done.

------------------
Matt Downing
www.downingracing.com (http://www.downingracing.com)

NoRaceCarYet
10-23-2001, 03:10 PM
How do we find out if the HB is intended for this class... (I think it's the car to have - not the Sedan).

K

danielbeeson
10-23-2001, 03:15 PM
I am not sure what (Models), I am sure we will find out in the next Fastrack?

We probably can call Sven at SCCA and see what models?

Matt... What class are you shooting for?

NoRaceCarYet
10-23-2001, 03:31 PM
OK, I e-mailed Sven...

downingracing
10-23-2001, 04:39 PM
Dan,

Starting to prep for ITS, but will change to LP Prod. as soon as specs are available!

I could prep for ITA, but I won't start that conversation again! VIN plates and all...

------------------
Matt Downing
www.downingracing.com (http://www.downingracing.com)

danielbeeson
10-23-2001, 04:42 PM
I also sent an e-mail to Sven and Aaron.
Maybe we can actually get a answer soon.

Matt... I am not aware of Prod. rules, what can you do to the motor and such?

il8apex
10-23-2001, 06:17 PM
Dan-

The Prod. motor is basically an IT motor. Not much else to be done, as I read it. Flywheel can be lightened I think, and the gearbox ratios are open (a big help for the Hondas, as other ratios literally plug right in!). I'm going from memory here, so please don't flame if I'm wrong!

The big difference is in the chassis. Reinforcement of the body structure is the biggie here, primary in shock towers, etc. The suspensions also gain a little leeway, especially in moving and reinforcing pickup points. All that strengthening makes for a much stronger body structure that transfers loads much better and allows the suspension to work as it should.

The part I really don't know is the limited prep. How limited is it? Any idea when we'll see the classification, Matt?

I'm becoming more and more curious about this, since a prep car more closely resembles something that could run in Group 2 Rally... I spent the weekend at the Lake Superior Pro Rally this weekend and it got me thinking I'd really like to do that some time!

-Tom

------------------
Tom Southworth

'93 Honda Civic
Currently prepping for IT Roadrace, CSP AutoX
Sponsors wanted!

downingracing
10-23-2001, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by il8apex:
Dan-

The part I really don't know is the limited prep. How limited is it? Any idea when we'll see the classification, Matt?
-Tom



Tom / Dan,

I think the difference in the motor is compression. You can do "whatever you need to" to raise the compression to the spec. I understand that to be running trick pistons, shaving the block and head, and some other tricks! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

I'm not sure when to expect the specs, but the sooner the better! I'm going to start the prep for ITS and see how far I get. I've got the trans w/ the welded diff and hoepfully a different final drive. The motor is "on hold" for now pending classification (and fund$).

Either way, I should be ready for VIR in March. (Regional/Enduro) Great track!

I'd like to run Nationals, but I'm not sure the first year for [prod. is a good time to switch.

My wife is not fond of me working on the car... She enjoys Showroom Stock and has hinted several times that if this turns into working on the car all the time, we will be getting a new SS car! I think this is a WIN/WIN situation for me!!!!!

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Matt Downing
www.downingracing.com (http://www.downingracing.com)

il8apex
10-23-2001, 09:22 PM
Lucky Dog! You know where I am if you dump the Civic... http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

-T

ITB#32VWGTi
10-24-2001, 11:03 AM
Dear Tom Southworth:
Off Topic,.. but I see from your email that you were at the SCCA Pro Rally (aka POR)last week.
I was too, I was spectating. What were you driving?
I was driving the Red Audi A4 with Texas plates.
I drove all the way from Austin TX. My god did you see the car that caught some serious air at the spectator stage (think jump) on the last day of the event?

Ron Vaughn
SW Div
83 VW/GTi/ITB



Originally posted by il8apex:
Dan-

I spent the weekend at the Lake Superior Pro Rally this weekend and it got me thinking I'd really like to do that some time!

-Tom

il8apex
10-24-2001, 12:55 PM
Shoot me an e-mail at [email protected] and I'll tell you about how I almost got hit!

-Tom

greg_umbay
10-24-2001, 08:34 PM
I am building my 94 DX CHB for ITA next year. I am not sure of the commpetativeness. I'll be glad to share my findings with you. [email protected]

In fact I was the one who petitioned the comp board for classifacation.

I get the digest version so I am usually late with reading up on the news here.

downingracing
10-25-2001, 08:16 AM
Dan, I've shown this picture to a few people and interest is growing. (THANKS to Dan for putting this together!) Maybe we'll see it (or something like it) on the track next year?!?!?!

http://members.aol.com/hoppy9898/ita.jpg

As you can see... I still have advertising space available! Contact [email protected] for a Sponsorship Information Packet!

------------------
Matt Downing
www.downingracing.com (http://www.downingracing.com)

danielbeeson
10-25-2001, 08:59 AM
Matt, thanks for the plug!
That was just a taste of what I can do!
If anyone is interested in having me
design there paint scheme for them I would
love to do it!

contact me:
[email protected]

NoRaceCarYet
10-25-2001, 12:23 PM
wow that's nice..
So, Hatchbacks are in! OK, that's on the list... it's down to SpecMiata or Civic..

K

Richy Gonzalez
10-25-2001, 12:59 PM
Matt,
Dude that's so cool looking. For second I wanted to dump my CRX and build a hatchback!

Daniel,
Is there charge? How much? I'm planning on painting my CRX similar to the BFGoodrich SoloI car. Green front (hood/bumper/fenders) and the rest yellow. There are too many yellow CRX's running around so I trying to be different.

------------------
Richy Gonzalez
ITA 89 CRX (http://communities.msn.com/TheGonzalezFamilyRichySheilaandNyah/projectitacrx.msnw) - 2002 Season

downingracing
10-25-2001, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by NoRaceCarYet:
wow that's nice..
So, Hatchbacks are in! OK, that's on the list... it's down to SpecMiata or Civic..

K

Not so fast... This is just "wishful thinking" at this point. Wait to get the specs in FastTrack before you buy anything.

The only thing for sure is that I'll be having Dan design my paint for whatever I end up with!

Dan, If you get free time, what can you do with the EX? I'm open to any colors/designs. Just want to make sure the Cera.Net logos will look OK. (And you know I like Red...)

------------------
Matt Downing
www.downingracing.com (http://www.downingracing.com)

[This message has been edited by downingracing (edited October 25, 2001).]

danielbeeson
10-25-2001, 01:23 PM
Richy Gonzalez wrote: Daniel,Is there charge? How much? I'm planning on painting my CRX similar to the BFGoodrich SoloI car.Green front (hood/bumper/fenders) and the rest yellow.There are too many yellow CRX's running around so I trying to be different.

Matt wrote: Dan, If you get free time, what can you do with the EX? I'm open to any colors/designs. Just want to make sure the Cera.Net logos will look OK. (And you know I like Red...)

I just talked to "NoRaceCarYet" and as I told him: $30.00 for a basic design and $50.00 for a much more elaborate design. I think that will fit everyone's budget?

Richy, That's no problem, I would just need some basic info from you to get started!

Matt, I'll get started right away. Buy the way, I would love to post some of my designs on this site, (If I am aloud) How do I attach files to my post?

lb2
10-25-2001, 02:29 PM
Guys you need to wait before start building that car, we need to see the weight ??? I would say it has to be under 2100 lbs to be competitive in ITA.
Louis Boustani

NoRaceCarYet
10-25-2001, 02:48 PM
http://forums.improvedtouring.com/it/ubbcode.html Follow this to the UBBCode information page.

[This message has been edited by NoRaceCarYet (edited October 25, 2001).]

NoRaceCarYet
10-25-2001, 02:52 PM
Just think of the sponsorship potential of a newer body style Honda in So.Cal. (Ohmigod! ... I got goose bumps!) http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

2100 pounds... as much as 2200 - 2300... but at 2300 it becomes an "also-ran"

downingracing
10-25-2001, 05:34 PM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Matt, I'll get started right away. Buy the way, I would love to post some of my designs on this site, (If I am aloud) How do I attach files to my post?</font>[/b]

No rush Dan. I'm just considering my options... Paint will be dependant on how much $$ the motor costs!

http://forums.improvedtouring.com/it/ubbcode.html

This link will take you to the page with all the answers.

(You might be looking at some good part-time income!)

See ya



------------------
Matt Downing
www.downingracing.com (http://www.downingracing.com)

p.keane
10-25-2001, 05:52 PM
You guys should try to get something in writing from the Comp Board stating the Civic will stay in ITA. Take it from me, if your Honda goes to fast the board will move it to ITS. I just went through a year long battle over the Accord and lost."Competition potential" and "Honda's race better than the sum of their parts" was their basis. It is a real pain in the a-- to spend three years developing a car to have it taken away on potential.

JohnW
10-25-2001, 06:54 PM
.........p.keane is 100% right!!!!!

Get it in writing!!! What happened to the ITB Accord is total B.S. and you bet I'll be pulling for the Accords at the ARRC.

Weight also..... if the car is @ 2300 plus... big problems.

" Hondas race better than the sum of their parts"..... did they really use that? You have got to be kidding!!!!! What kind of logic is that? Christ.. maybe I better go race with another club.

downingracing
10-26-2001, 07:25 AM
The weight for the EX in ITS is 2305. It will be interesting to see what the weight for the ITA car is...

The only thing going for us is that the DX is not a VTEC. The Comp. Board REALLY has an issue with the VTEC! It took me 7 MONTHS to get them to consider the Limited Prep. Prod. classification because of "competition potential" (I still don't know what that means!)

Hopefully the weight for the DX will be around 2000 - 2100. Hurry up and wait...


------------------
Matt Downing
www.downingracing.com (http://www.downingracing.com)

danielbeeson
10-26-2001, 11:10 AM
To: Anthony Machi
From: Dan Beeson

Anthony, I keep getting a "Undeliverable E-mail" maessage evry time I send you a reply. Let me know if you are recieving my e-mails.

Thanks, Dan Beeson

downingracing
10-26-2001, 02:23 PM
This is the ITS version...

http://members.aol.com/hoppy9898/ex.jpg

"Design by Dan"

Hopefully you can see this car in 2002...


------------------
Matt Downing
www.downingracing.com (http://www.downingracing.com)

Knestis
10-26-2001, 09:24 PM
VERY nice work, Dan--both design and graphic execution. If looks would put Downing on the pole, he'd be there!

My bachelor's degree was in Industrial Design and I used to have about $300 worth of markers to do illustrations with. I am officially a dinosaur.

Again, nice work...

Kirk

downingracing
10-28-2001, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by Knestis:
VERY nice work, Dan--both design and graphic execution. If looks would put Downing on the pole, he'd be there!
Kirk

If you can't be fast, you might as well look good!!!

Still working on the motor options... Trans should be done by Dec. and suspension is a Christmas present to myself!

"Looking forward to 2002"



------------------
Matt Downing
www.downingracing.com (http://www.downingracing.com)

danielbeeson
10-29-2001, 10:09 AM
Thanks Kirk...
These were done on the computer. I used to do them with markers as well, but times are a changing. If anyone is interested in having me design there paint scheme, contact me. [email protected]

Thanks again

Bill Miller
10-29-2001, 10:39 AM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">The big difference is in the chassis. Reinforcement of the body structure is the biggie here, primary in shock towers, etc. The suspensions also gain a little leeway, especially in moving and reinforcing pickup points. </font>

Tom, you should check the rules again. If you're talking about a limited prep car, you can't do anything to the suspension p/u points. At best, you're allowed an alternate or reinforced lower control arm. You can only move/alter/reinforce the p/u points in a full-prep car.

And to add further confusion to the mix. The rumor is is that the CB considers the ball joint a p/u point, so you can't add a ball joint spacer or modify the knuckle where it attaches.

And BTW, I think the 'competition potential' arguement is BS. If the car proves to be too fast for a class, move it up. But don't do it based on theoretical performance. If Denver (Topeka?) would get off their collective asses and come up w/ a reasonable formula for classifying IT cars, it would make this whole thing a lot easier.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI

il8apex
10-29-2001, 11:31 AM
Bill-

Yeah, a full prep car is what I was referring to. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

I don't know if I should take up room here or find the Prod. BBS, but is the ball joint really a pick-up point? No knuckle modification? That would mean no (or very little) roll center modification...

And along the same lines, does the comp board let you change the type of pick-up, like from a pillow mount to a spherical bearing? I've heard of IT guys doing this...

-T

Bill Miller
10-29-2001, 06:26 PM
Tom,

Yeah, kind of hard to believe that someone's trying to claim a ball joint is a pickup point, but that's what the story is.

To answer your question, there's not much you can do to a FWD strut car to help the roll center. For a VW, that limits ride height to ~5". Compared to some of the 510's and such that I've seen in GProd, the things will look like SUV's!!!

The only thing you're allowed in l-p is different bushings and alternate or reinforced control arms. The mounts have to remain as stock.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI

Knestis
12-15-2001, 11:00 PM
Any updates on ITA DXs? Has there been any indication of the spec weights and/or clarification of whether both body styles are listed?

Thanks for any new info...

Best,

Kirk

Knestis
01-08-2002, 09:12 PM
Public thanks to Greg U. for forwarding me the specs on the ITA Civic DX, in advance of GCR deliveries. Having said that...

>> 2330 POUNDS ? <<

For a NON-VTEC, 1500cc, 16v, SOHC engine that makes 102hp and 98ft-lb of torque in stock form. In ITA. Argh.

Setting aside all of the wacky crap that surfaces if we compare BETWEEN manufacturers for a moment - comparing apples to apples - this is almost 200# heavier than the '88-91 CRX, which has 100cc more displacement in an engine of similar specs. The CRX IT-spec weight is 150# lighter than stock curb, while the DX race weight is more than 100# HEAVIER THAN STOCK (data from the same source). Maybe the CRX has to be lighter because it punches a smaller hole in the air, huh?

Those of you familiar with my ramblings know that I am reasonably agreeable but I have officially lost ALL confidence in the people making these decisions. It would have been painfully easy to do anything besides be stupid in this case, given all of the other Honda models classified and the body of race knowledge built up around them.

To heck with "racing better than the sum of its parts". The new standard appears to be "racing better than the SQUARE of the sum of its parts". If I have missed something or am ignorant of a pertinent fact in this case, I will write a lengthy, public apology - until then, those responsible can bite me.

Kirk

JohnW
01-08-2002, 09:51 PM
Kirk....

Your right.

I couldn't of said it better myself.

How did they come up with 2300 lbs???????

Bill Miller
01-09-2002, 09:36 AM
Kirk,

Now you understand the frustration I have re: VW weights. Courtesy of several people, I have a large body of information that documents what the VW weights are. This ranges from mfg. sales brochures to NADA data, to certified weigthts in race trim (by a chief scruitineer) to MVMA data. Interestingly enough, I've also got a letter from the former head of the IT Advisory Committee that states that MVMA weights are "considered gospel in the industry". Yet I've also heard other SCCA officials claim that MVMA data from VW, BMW, and Porsche was suspect.

I've submitted the information again, and have been told that it will be on the CB agenda.

As far as the Honda in question goes, I have no idea how that weight was arrived at. I do see this as just one more piece of supporting evidence that points to the need for a public, universaly-applied set of guidelines for classifying and setting the spec weight for IT cars (I won't even go into Prod). It may be premature to go after the ability to adjust weights based on performance/results, but the time has come for the establishement (and use) of the previously mentioned guidelines.

I'd be curious as to what answers anyone has gotten as to how the Civic DX weight was arrived at.

On a side note, I asked on the Prod BB how L-P car classifications were made, and how spec weights were set, and, while the board is frequented by at least one CB member, I have gotten no information as to how. Oh well.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI

davew
01-09-2002, 11:43 AM
FYI: Roger Foo's yellow Pro Spec 94 civic dx hatch is for sale. I think he is only asking $6k or less for the full rolling chassis w/ cage, seat, suspension, wheels/tires, halon, etc etc...with the right motor it could be very competive, and I can't think of any mods done to it that would keep it from being legal in IT...nothing beyond very minor things atleast. his email is:

[email protected]

if anybody is interetested in it...

downingracing
01-09-2002, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Kirk,

On a side note, I asked on the Prod BB how L-P car classifications were made, and how spec weights were set, and, while the board is frequented by at least one CB member, I have gotten no information as to how. Oh well.



When you get in contact with someone, ask about the 94 Civic EX. They put it in LP E Prod. No chance for it to be competitive.

Thanks!

NoRaceCarYet
01-09-2002, 01:14 PM
K!

bummer - I am looking at a "C" CRX...

I was hoping for some easy sponsorship with the Civic - I live in the heart of slammed-Civic Country - South Orange County, CA..

K (the lesser)

Tyson
01-09-2002, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by davew:
FYI: Roger Foo's yellow Pro Spec 94 civic dx hatch is for sale. I think he is only asking $6k or less for the full rolling chassis w/ cage, seat, suspension, wheels/tires, halon, etc etc...with the right motor it could be very competive, and I can't think of any mods done to it that would keep it from being legal in IT...nothing beyond very minor things atleast. his email is:

[email protected]

if anybody is interetested in it...

I thought he had a B16 in it....

NoRaceCarYet
01-09-2002, 03:12 PM
If by that you mean a Type R motor, you're right. But the post indicates the car is being sold without the motor.

davew
01-09-2002, 03:17 PM
he was running a B16A in it last season from a 99 civic si. scca/svwc pro rules don't allow the B18C since it never came in a civic anywhere...

but yeah, he is selling it without the motor as a rolling chassis...also w/o the alcon big brakes up front.

dave w

Crack Monkey
01-09-2002, 05:39 PM
2300lbs? You've gotta be kidding? How on earth does the hatchback weigh MORE than the coupe?

The coupe has a heavier engine, a sunroof, a trunk, larger wheels, larger brakes, and potentialy heavier interior (not sure how that would weigh once both are gutted to IT spec)!

No competition adjustments my ass!
Thanks god I race a Spec RX-7 where my car weighs the same as all the others.