1.8 8v cis-e that won't rev past 5000rpm

[spike]

I had my ITB golf out this weekend for the first time ever. (Trackday with PDA @ Limerock) that car was running OK @ idle the egt read 895 & the wb 10.5 on the first lap I went easy to let everything warm-up ect.
after the second lap the car would not pull
Over 5000rpm, egt 1285 wb 21.
I was told ,I want the egt to be apx. 1250 @ 6000rpm and the wb 12.5
But the engine was flat @ 4000 and would not rev over 5000 .
when I came in I pulled the plugs, like new
as if I pulled out of the box. no carbon, no
White frost tips.
Note: I do have the 02 sensor disconnected.
I think I have a fuel pump problem and I am
Ordering a CIS tester to night.
I would appreciate any help your could offer
spike

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87 ITB Golf
True speed is in the turns

[Bill Miller]

I don't really know much about the CIS-E systems, but I believe that they have a knock sensor that retards the timing, if it detects detonation. What's your ignition timing set at (total advance)? Also, if you're having a fuel delivery problem, the car may have been leaning out at the top, and therefore, starting to detonate. The knock sensor may have saved you in this case.

BTW, I assume the WB reading of 21 was a typo.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[racer_tim]

I agree with Bill, or the cam belt moved a tooth.

I'd check cam and ignition timing. Will it rev over 5,000 rpm with no load? Might also check for electrical issues. Might not be getting enough voltage to get the coil to put out 5,000 rpm's.



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

racer_tim @ yahoo dot com

[RSTPerformance]

Is it not pulling under load or not?
Is it worse or is it a problem that is constant?

Did it ever rev past 5,000 rpm's ???

More details and we can probably help you a little better.

Raymond

[Knestis]

I'd start with the coil but that's my answer for everything mysterious and engine-related.

K

[bubba]

Make sure that you have power and ground to your computer. If not you will be in a limp home mode.Sounds like that is where you are now.

[shwah]

I had a very similar experience with my ITB Golf's first outing. It was an excercise in patience to get through that first weekend.

We determined that it was a fueling issue, and went through the whole system. New pumps, swapped tank (seemed a bit gunky in the old one), new filter, and went to the dyno. The car was still running lean, we made a fuel enrichment device and it runs great now.

It was running lean enough that I am lucky to not have broken at that first event. However we gained 20+hp over the pitiful state of tune that we started in.

HTH

Chris

[Team Rocket]

I'm in the cam belt skipped a tooth camp. I had similar symptoms. Engine wouldn't pull past 5K or so. All the power in the low end of the band. Check the alignment marks!

Jim

[spike]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
I don't really know much about the CIS-E systems, but I believe that they have a knock sensor that retards the timing, if it detects detonation. What's your ignition timing set at (total advance)? Also, if you're having a fuel delivery problem, the car may have been leaning out at the top, and therefore, starting to detonate. The knock sensor may have saved you in this case.

BTW, I assume the WB reading of 21 was a typo.




[This message has been edited by spike (edited April 12, 2005).]

[spike]

Originally posted by spike:


[This message has been edited by spike (edited April 12, 2005).]

24deg's total locked out
21wb was not a typo
no knock sensor

[This message has been edited by spike (edited April 12, 2005).]

[spike]

Originally posted by racer_tim:
I agree with Bill, or the cam belt moved a tooth.

I'd check cam and ignition timing. Will it rev over 5,000 rpm with no load? Might also check for electrical issues. Might not be getting enough voltage to get the coil to put out 5,000 rpm's.



it would rev to red line with noload

[This message has been edited by spike (edited April 12, 2005).]

[spike]

I emailed BSI they said to check the full throttle switch and the fuel press.
Please keep your ideas coming. I will check what sever suggested.
I will be working on the car on Saturday.
Thanks everyone.

[Corradoracer]

Basic checks
1) Check base engine timing make sure all your timing marks line up.
2) Set ignition timing and perform computed timing check, Make sure knock sensor box vacuum hose is attached to the control unit (right side of cowl)
3) Check fuel pump output out of tank and check fuel pump output out of main fuel pump. Tank pump is low-pressure high output feed pump.
4) Control fuel pressure should be 5.5 bar. Multiply this by 14.7 to get Psi.
5) Check Electro Hydraulic actuator with an amp meter hooked up in series with the actuator. At idle stock setting is 10 mil. Amps and at party throttle it should be fluctuating from 10-7 mil amps stock. When you apply the throttle switch you should see fuel enrichment on your meter.
6) Check base mixture with the car at normal operating temperature.
7) You can make an easy wire adapter by using an old 3-wire oxygen sensor plug end and a GM or Ford fuel injector terminal end. When you make this adapter it makes diagnostics very easy.

If you want you can contact me at 805 965-6142



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Gary Semerdjian
#98 Corrado ITS

[Campbell]

As mentioned, sounds like a distributor issue but I would also check your cylinder compression to be sure you have engine integrity - that would limit your rpms under load also.

Is your fuel pump new? With no knock sensor your distributor advance function probably doesn't work (I don't run a CIS-E but I have helped troubleshoot them a time or two)so you may want to set your timing at 32 btdc, 24 may not be enough.

good luck

[Mark LaBarre]

Why do you have your O2 sensor disconected?

mark

[psykokid]

another thing you could check may be the ICM.. that can cause all sorts of silly problems when it goes..

[spike]

Originally posted by Mark LaBarre:
Why do you have your O2 sensor disconected?

mark

this is the setup BSI told me to run

[spike]

Originally posted by psykokid:
another thing you could check may be the ICM.. that can cause all sorts of silly problems when it goes..

what is the ICM?

[shwah]

ignition control module

[psykokid]

the ignition control module. the correct name is iirc ignition control unit (ICU) looks something like this: http://germanautoparts.com/image/B6135230590993129419

its up in rain tray near the jetronic ecu on mk2 cars.

we recently had to debug some stuff off of a freinds recently acquired mk2 jetta GLI. his car tended to hit a brick wall at certain RPMs.. turns out both the fuel distributor and the main fuel pump were on their respective ways out.. swapped them out with spares we had about and everything worked as it should..

[Eric Parham]

87 GOLFS with FI came in at least 3 flavors:

1) CIS-E (with and without knock control)
2) CIS-Lambda
3) Digifant

If CIS-Lambda (black fuel distributor), I'd suspect the frequency valve.

If CIS-E (silver fuel distributor) WITH knock sensor, I'd start by checking the knock sensor circuit.

If CIS-E WITHOUT knock sensor, it might be the rev-limiting fuel pump relay or it's signal from the ignition.

If 49-state Digifant, I'd sell it http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

Oh, and with any of the above, it might well be a weak in-tank fuel pre-pump. They're actually pretty easy to change. This won't always show up in a pressure test since it only seems to limit fuel volume, and sometimes a strong main pump masks the symptoms.

[This message has been edited by Eric Parham (edited May 12, 2005).]

[VW16VRacer]

Not to be picky but the picture above is not a actual "control module". It is the coil final stage that boost's the voltage to the coil. The actual ignition control module is the knock box. I like the in-tank fuel pump test. Pull the cover over the fuel tank and remove the hose with the arrow pointing out, most likely a black hose and install a fuel line to a catch bucket in it's place. Jump the fuel pump relay and there should be fuel in your catch bucket(low presure, high volume). If not check to see that ther is 12V at the larger of the two wires in the plug, one is power and might be red with a black stripe and the brown ground, the other smaller wires are for the signal wires for the sender. If you have 12V with the fuel pump replay jumped then pull the sender unit and replace the pump and pick up screen. If I am reading your post correctly WB (wide band O2 sensor) is reading 21 then you are LEAN and have a fuel problem, a ignition problem would show up a rich, 11 or smaller. Also check the inlet banjo bolt to the fuel dist. from the main fuel pump. There is a micro filter in the bolt itself and should of been replaced/removed at the cars first service if the dealer was doing is job way back in the cars early days. This is the banjo bolt on the side of the fuel dist. not the check valve at the main pump. If it is there and/or plugged then take a small screwdriver and pry it out, make sure you get the whole thing out and cleaned up and put the banjo bolt back in. It was installed at the factory to remove debris when the car was built. If you went to the dealer and got a replacement bolt there would be no filter in it and you can not get a replacement with a filter, just as easy to remove it. Just my .02

Jon

[pfcs]

got a 2dr golf with digifant-rust free shell?

sell it to Phil! (better yet, give it)

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phil hunt

[Vantage #51]

Eric, our best results both on track and at the dyno are with the Digifant,try it, you might like the results.
Drek

[Vantage #51]

thats Derek,guys.

[spike]

Well, after doing every test in the manual and passing all but one.
no Ma from the pcu I replaced the ECU and the mixture is now 12.5 @6000rpm
I have not driven the car yet.( I really don't want to blast down my street!)

Question: The ECU I got has a red label and a different PN# then the one that was in the car.
Removed from a 88 cis-e Jettta.
my old ECU was green label 87 GTI

thanks for your help
spike

[zracre]

just make sure the control pressure is good and the warm up regulator is good too...too much fuel pressure and it will be lean too little and its rich...i made a fuel pressure regulator out of an old warm up regulator...it is easy and with a permanent fuel pressure guage under the hood you can adjust at the dyno or track...good luck

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Evan Darling
ITA Integra