ECU rules applied to VWs

[Eric Parham]

For those who haven't noticed, there's an interesting discussion going on in the Rules&Regs section re: cleaning up the Engine Control Unit (ECU) rules. I'd like to point out that the current rules make it much harder and/or more expensive to tune a VW than to tune many other makes. This is because VW uses Mass-Airflow (MAF) meters while others use simple Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensors.

I like doing my own tuning. I don't want to be at the mercy of the chip tuners, and I don't have enough budget for an expensive ECU (e.g., Motec more than $3000). There are cheap alternative do-it-yourself ECUs (e.g., Megasquirt less than $200), but they use MAP sensors. The current rules do not allow the addition of a MAP sensor or wire.

[Knestis]

So what to do? I don't truly believe that there will be any changes in the ECU rule in the foreseeable future. Is there room for a reasonably affordable, effective solution for the Motronic VWs?

K

[Eric Parham]

Well, there *might* be room, but it would be a heck of a lot easier if we could use the cheap MAP-based systems. I think it really does take something on the order of a Motec to make use of a hotwire-type MAF as used on the Golf 3.

I have been trying to "adjust" the OEM Bosch computer. Some people know how but refuse to share. I've spent $900 already on the latest VAG-COM and a few different chips, and countless hours trying to figure out alternatives, but I'm still not able to even adjust the minor adaptation values. It seems that the chip makers should have freed this up for us, but chose not to so they could keep selling us more chips instead -- or..., maybe the chips have to be locked for emissions reasons -- not certain. To be honest, I'm a bit frustrated over the whole thing... For this much effort and expense and I still can't turn off my smog pump, tweak my fuel mixture or adjust my max speed cutout.

[Knestis]

Did you see http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1191064 ?

It sounds like you are operating on the assumption that aftermarket chips don't have limits on the adaptation channel values..."

I am at the VERY bottom of the learning curve on this issue but have at least the tiniest clue about how this stuff works in general.

How about the idea of creating a usegroup kind of organization to distribute the load and share information on this front?

I could even see cutting loose with some development dough if there was a chance that we could come up with something that could be commercialized somehow.

K

[VW16VRacer]

Eric

I have access to the information you may need. My sponsor does chip devolpment with a dyno and works closely with a well known tunner. Let me do some poking around and see what I can find. It would help if I know the ECU part number, what car it is going into and what you are after. It will then take some O2 sensor voltage readings to trim and do any final adjustments.

Jon Bonforte
Portland Or
ICSCC #99 EP

[This message has been edited by VW16VRacer (edited November 05, 2004).]

[Eric Parham]

Kirk: Thanks, I have seen that one. Unfortunately, it only works on 2001.5-2003 Golf 4 cars/ECUs (Bosch Motronic 7.x) that happen to have a bug (or back door) in the software (specifically, the KWP-2000 protocol). Revo's Lemmiwinks program only works on those cars. Our Golf IIIs don't have that(OBD 1 is Bosch Motronic 2.9; OBD2 is Bosch M5.9). However, I scoured the Earth and came up with the following 4 "secret codes" that may gain some minimal access to *some* of the Golf 3 ECUs basic adaptation values:

11463
07825
12233
01283

I haven't tried these on any of the 2.0s yet (I have '95, 96 and 97 ECUs), but the last one did allow me to reset the factory default adaptation channels on my 97 VR6. I still don't know what the other 7 adaptation channels control (just that the first does a reset of the others), but I believe that one is an idle speed offset, another is probably the road speed limiter, and there are probably a couple of fuel trim values too. I'm hoping that one turns out to change ignition timing offset, but not too optimistic at this point. Even with a chipped ECU, the adjustment range for the second channel was only from 123-133 out of what should have been 0-255. I think it may have changed the idle speed about 40 rpm (123 vs. 133), but not positive. The default was 128.

Jon: That sounds very exciting! Please do check with them and try to plead our case. I would certainly be willing to pay for enough info to allow us to tune the cars at the track (I would have no problem adding an eprom burner to my toolbox, but would of course prefer to flash them in-situ through the OBD port). The project car is starting off as an early 95 Golf with OBD1, but I do have enough stuff to convert it to 96 or 97 OBD2, if that would be easier to tune (which looks likely at this point).

P.S. -- I can copy down the various ECU numbers tomorrow. I might even have a 98 kicking around too.

[This message has been edited by Eric Parham (edited November 06, 2004).]

[Knestis]

From that same source...

Channel 1: Additive Engine Idle Speed Offset

This channel allows one to adjust the engine idle speed in steps of 10
rev/min.

Typical VAG control range : -50 rev/min to +50 rev/min
Maximum possible control range : -1280 rev/min to +1270 rev/min

Channel 2: Tweak on fuel enrichment based on increasing loads (i.e. accel pump)

This channel adjusts a fuel enrichment term that is proportional to load
rate of change and that acts to enrich full when the engine load is
increasing. This is equivalent to an accelerator pump function

Typical VAG control range : 100% to 110%
Maximum possible control range : 0% to 200%

Channel 3: Tweak on fuel enrichment based on decreasing loads

This is very similar in function to channel 2 but adjusts a term
that works to decrease fuel when engine load is decreasing.

Typical VAG control range : 90% to 100%
Maximum possible control range : 0% to 200%

Channel 4: Tweak on Startup Fuel Enrichment

This adjusts the startup fuel enrichment term.

Typical VAG control range : 100% to 110%
Maximum possible control range : 0% to 200%

Channel 5: Tweak on Warmup Fuel Enrichment

This adjusts the warmup fuel enrichment term.

Typical VAG control range : 90% to 100%
Maximum possible control range : 0% to 200%

Channel 6: Lambda Regulation

This tweaks a lambda regulation system's narrowband oxygen sensor
cycle time in steps of 10 milliseconds.

Typical VAG control range : -100 ms to +100 ms
Maximum possible control range : -1280 ms to + 1270 ms

Channel 7: Additive Offset On Speed Limiter

This is allows one to adjust the speed limiter in steps of 1 kmh.

Typical VAG control range : 0 kmh (no adjustment allowed)
Maximum possible control range : -128 kmh to + 127 kmh

Channel 8: Secondary Fuel Tweak

This adjusts the main fuel term.

Typical VAG control range : 100% to 110%
Maximum possible control range : 0% to 200%


Channel 9: Additive offset on ignition timing angle

Allows one to shift the ignition timing angle up or down in steps of
0.75 degrees.

Typical VAG control range : No adjustment allowed
Maximum possible control range : -96 Degrees to +95.25 Degrees

Channel 10: Primary Fuel Tweak

This adjust the main fuel term.

Typical VAG control range : No adjustment allowed
Maximum possible control range : -25% to +24.8%

Channel 11: Unused

Typical VAG control range : No adjustment allowed
Maximum possible control range : -128 to +127

Channel 12: Specified Engine Load Scaling Factor (Turbocharged cars only)

This factor allows one to scale the specified engine load. The default
value comes set at the maximum value, so specified engine loads can only
be reduced with this adaptation channel.

Typical VAG control range : only 100% allowed (no adjustment allowed)
Maximum possible control range : 0% to 100%

Channel 13: Control Bits

These control bits affect engine idle control.

Typical VAG control range : limited to 2 control bits
Maximum possible control range : 8 different control bits can be set
or cleared

Channel 14: Additive Offset To Idle Torque

This channel allows one to raise the minimum torque maintained at idle.

Typical VAG control range : 0 to 31 (arbitrary units)
Maximum possible control range : 0 to 255 (arbitrary units)

I'll start the process on my end by checking the numbers on my two ECMs as well.

K

[Eric Parham]

Just spent some time searching for my extra aftermarket chips -- no luck yet but I'll keep looking tomorrow. I'll try to check all of my ECUs too, with and without the various chips I've got. BTW, our M5.9 ECUs only have a total of 8 adaptation channels (0-7 in VAG-COM) and ch 0 is the reset, but I just noticed back on that revo source that many were not used on the naturally aspirated golf 4s, so maybe the ones that were might be the ones we got on the golf 3s. Might be a headstart, at least, to see if our channels 1-7 correspond to the M7 channels 1-3, 7-8, 9 or 10, and 13 or 14, as above.

p.s. -- the defaults on my chipped vr6 were:

ch 0: 000 (reset)
ch 1: 128 (could adjust from 123-133)
ch 2: 128
ch 3: 128
ch 4: 128
ch 5: 128
ch 6: 0
ch 7: 1

[This message has been edited by Eric Parham (edited November 06, 2004).]

[Knestis]

I posted something in the VAG-COM forum on the Vortex, and got a bite. Take a look at...

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zeropost?cmd=ts...show&id=1671365 (http://forums.vwvortex.com/zeropost?cmd=tshow&id=1671365)

How big is CT, again?

K

[Bill Miller]

Kirk,

Contact me off line, I need to speak w/ you about something.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Eric Parham]

Thanks Kirk, I have already made contact with Jeff. He shot down the non-invasive flashing idea for the Golf 3s, but we think we can work something out to get a basic map built and tuned with an in-car emulator. I may change my ice racing steed to a 2.0L OBD2 setup so we can try out tuning with the emulator. The emulator and modified computer box (hole for emulator connection)would have to be swapped out for a burned chip in a stock box for any SCCA racing.

I don't want to put my new Golf 3 on the ice because it would look like a war victim before next Spring (ice racers are generally better skilled but less lucky than SM drivers, for example), but I'll see if I can find something suitable (the ice racing cage rules are even stricter than IT).

Anyone know how to reach Tim Mullen from MA?

[Eric Parham]

BTW, my costs associated with tweaking the stock ECU are creeping up on 10x what the cost of a Megasquirt and MAP sensor ($150)would have been, and will have well exceeded $2000 by the time it's workable. Oh well, I'll stop complaining for now. Cheers!

[Knestis]

My ECM numbers are as follows:

021 906 259
0 261 204 831
[10.01.98]

037 906 259 J
0 261 204 514/515
[07.06.97]

The last I assume is a date. What is the significance of the others? Hardware P/N and a designation for the software version???

K

EDIT - 1996 GTI 2.0, OBD2, M5.9 engine management. I'm looking for a higher rev limit so I've got more latitude to pick shift points, and whatever area under the torque curve I can get. I'm less likely to be tuning at the track but would like to be able to optimize on the dyno without having to be swapping chips in and out...

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited November 06, 2004).]

[Eric Parham]

Originally posted by VW16VRacer:
... It would help if I know the ECU part number, what car it is going into and what you are after. ...

Jon,

Although the ITB project car is an early 95 Golf GL 2-door with OBD1 (M2.9), I have enough stuff here from a 96 to convert it to OBD2 (M5.9). I haven't checked for the M2.9 ECU #, but my 96 GTI 2.0 has Bosch ECU No. 037-906-259 (no letter version) and I have another ECU out of a 97 Jetta with Bosch ECU No. 037-906-259-N. I also have at least a Neuspeed P-chip that's supposed to work in one of these, I think.

What am I after? I want as much control as possible over the program and its maps, and I'd like to be able to tune it properly for various changes specific to a built ITB engine that will be run at various tracks in all types of weather and with potentially inconsistent fuels. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

[Eric Parham]

Using Kirk's format, my OBD2 2.0L ECU numbers are:

96 ECU:
037-906-259 (no letter)
0-261-203-719/720
06.02.96 (this is in dd/mm/yy format)

97 ECU:
037-906-259-N
0-261-204-635/636
05.05.97


Kirk,
Is the one that does not begin with "037" also a Bosch?

[Knestis]

Yup. "Bosch - Hecho en Mexico"

K

[VW16VRacer]

Eric

I have fowarded the information and should know in a day or so. Post or private e-mail?

Jon

[VW16VRacer]

Eric

I have fowarded the information and should know in a day or so. Post or private e-mail?

Jon

[Eric Parham]

Thanks. It's fine with me to post the info here. I guess the only reasons not to would be up to the tuner. I noticed that my email won't show in my IT.com profile. It's [email protected]

[Dave Zaslow]

From ETKA I got the following part numbers:

037 906 258 AS
>>>1H-S-999 000
"only KD" (don't know what this means)

037 906 259 and 037 906 259 J
1H-T-000 001 >>> 107 409 (obd1)

037 906 259 D
1H-T-107 410 >>> (obd2)

037 906 259 E
1H-T-107 410 >>> (obd2) "California"

Hope this is of some use.

Eric, how is it going?

Dave Z

[Knestis]

Anyone learning anything on this front? Updates?

K

[VW16VRacer]

Eric and Kirk

After a long talk with the software guys it turns out there is no real way to change the factory software with out burning a new chip with modified software. With out knowing exactly the process they told me that there is no way to do what we as racers want to do with the factory software. You can certanly do it with a chip reader and aftermarket software but it involves burning a new chip every time you want to change something. The things I think you are looking at with the VAG-COM is under channel 10 (Adaptation). These are simply adaptation channels and are not changeable, they are simply responses to the inputs and outputs of the ECU. If you both would like to have a chat about this subject off this fourm feel free to e-mail me at [email protected].

Jon

[Eric Parham]

Jon, thanks for checking. I was afraid of that, but still hopeful that one of those adaptation values might change the ignition timing, for example. Some of the values are changeable within tight ranges.

Kirk, I don't have any news to speak of, although I have been learning a lot about flash memories and general microcontroller coding. As a former controls engineer, I am actually amazed that all these automotive controllers are still using maps rather than adaptive algorithm controls. I just don't get it (yet). In addition, the Bosch stuff seems to be a lot more "tamper resistant" than almost everything else (and it doesn't help that lots of the disclosed info is only in German).

Hi Dave, it's good to hear from you http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif I saw Joel at the Glen and hoped to see you at Lime Rock for the NARRC runoffs. I managed to renew my license but I'm still rusty (ok, maybe not as rusty as my old Scirocco http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif. Hoping that some ice racing this winter will put the polish back on. How's the new car progressing?

Cheers,
Eric

[This message has been edited by Eric Parham (edited December 08, 2004).]

[Knestis]

Since the new year is just about here and I have to get off the stick on some of these projects, I thought I'd put this back up to see if there are any new developments.

I'd also be interested to know what other MkIII runners are doing for the interim, until we come up with an elegant solution - like off-the-shelf tuner chip options?

K

[pfcs]

Kirk-based on my experience withMk II Digifant efi I'd bet your best bet is to buckle down and do it yourself. If you're willing to spend many hours of trial and error on a test bench with an e-prom emulator amd some editing software, you can probably figure out where the full load tables are and discover which area of the tables affect what load/rpm value. Being able to street drive your car will be a major asset! I installed a wideband O2 and datalogged load, rpm, and A/F to a Palm pilot. Once you've cracked the tables, you can drive around with a laptop and the e-prom emulator in place of the chip. I made 3rd gear pulls to redline, checked my results roadside, edited values, then re-tested. Only when I was pretty satisfied did I go onto rt 80 and make a pull in 4th to 6700. Incidently, in my search for answers, I got involved with Jeff A-nice guy, and helpful-but the real answer demanded a personal comittment. And if you figure this out for A3, you'll be VERY popular and stand to make some $ or at least new friends. PS: I think Chris Albin must have made some progress-at the ARRC, he came over to me and wanted to know if I had a chip burner and laptop on me. Contact me at [email protected] if you need info.

------------------
phil hunt

[Knestis]

My current plan is to have Techtonics burn me a custom chip, based on my specs. They have been by far the most helpful, in terms of specific technical knowledge and willingness to talk about my plans, and make recommendations.

On a related point, I have a high-flow cat coming from rally specialists Davesport. It's going to be a muffler and allow me to pass state tests and avoid having to spoof the O2 sensors.

K

[Bildon]

I think you A3 Motronic guys and our Motronic 2.9 Corrado have a lot in common.
In reading this it looks like you guys are dong most of what we are doing...with one exception.

If you are looking for a way to tune your enignes without having to burn a new chip each time, and you do not want to go through the crazy process of re-wiring a MoTec into your stock ECU box then you may want to try a piggyback system.

We use the PerfectPower SMT6 unit for this. It allows full control over fuel and ignition as well as a number of other options that you can employ.

The system is of course illegal to run in races but we've found no better way to learn what the engine "NEEDS" when tuning on the dyno or at a test day. It's less than $300.

Once we've locked down the parameters we are going to go the same route as soem of you here have mentioned and burn ourselves a new chip with a couple custome maps.

Perhaps a humidity (Pocono monsoon) map and a race gas map.

We're a dealer if anyone wants one.

Here is some info on them:
http://perfectpower.canspeed.com/smt6.htm



------------------
Bill Sulouff - Bildon Motorsport (http://www.bildon.com)
Volkswagen Racing Equipment
## 2003 ITB NYSRRC Champs ##

[Dave Zaslow]

Someone with a lot more knowledge needs to have a chat with this person:

http://www.rocketchip.com

because he can do this:

http://yourpage.blazenet.net/jsr/comparison.gif

I rode in one of his chipped Jetta TDI's this weekend. It did make power.

If there is interest I will try to get his phone #.

Dave Z

[Bildon]

Dave,
By looking at the indiviudiual car make links it appears he's getting his maps from a Euro tuner (PS, Nm). Any idea who it is? Revo, Wetterauer?

For racing we probably want to be burning our own chips as a result of dyno testing.
We've found that street chips have assumptions and precautions which compromise maximizing power for long WOT pulls that we see in IT racing.

Then again, your other link suggests this guy is doing exactly that.
http://yourpage.blazenet.net/jsr/comparison.gif

I'd like to talk with him.

------------------
Bill Sulouff - Bildon Motorsport (http://www.bildon.com)
Volkswagen Racing Equipment

[Knestis]

I got my pseudo-custom chip installed, let it temperature cycle a few times, then took it for a drive this evening. (Street legal racecars are good like that.)

The butt dyno suggests it has more low- and mid-range squirt and it DOES rev at least to 7000rpm now.

There are two places at VIR where that is going to pay big dividends - where it used to be necessary to either do a poopy short upshift, get out of the throttle, or drive along hammering on the rev limiter for a while.

K

[Bildon]

How are you guys fairing with your ECU tuning? We're making steady progress with the M2.9.

We have pretty much been able to pull back "the curtain" on the whole program.

The OEM maps run ~14.7 AFR ALL the time except at WOT, then 12's down to safe, but "slow" 11's by redline. So there is a lot of room for improvement.

Contact me if any of you want help to reprogram your own stuff. Maybe we can put a small forum together to share what we learn with each other.


------------------
Bill Sulouff - Bildon Motorsport (http://www.bildon.com)
Volkswagen Racing Equipment

[Bildon]

2L and VR6 guys, can you tell me which ECU you have in your cars?

258P
258CD
258DG
258BJ
258J
258M



------------------
Bill Sulouff - Bildon Motorsport (http://www.bildon.com)
Volkswagen Racing Equipment

[Knestis]

I have a 037 906 259 J in the 2.0 and a spare that was supposed to be out of a four but the number suggests is actually a VR6:

021 906 259
0 261 204 831
[10.01.98]

It's for sale or trade, by the way, if anyone can use it.

K