Oil Pumps

[Campbell]

Folks,

The engine I am putting together (.40 over) had been using a hydraulic lifter head, I am putting a solid lifter head on it. The oil pump is new, will it be okay for a solid lifter head? it is a Fabi oil pump. Does anyone know the VW OE 9 digit code for the solid lifter head oil pump? thanks

[Greg Amy]

Hello, Campbell.

First, is this an IT engine? If so, you may be doing illegal modifications. I am unaware of any car that allows updating and backdating of hydraulic versus mechanical heads.

That said, your existing pump will be fine. The pumps used on the hydraulic-head engines were higher volume to account for the lifters, and it does not hurt you to run that pump in a non-hydraulic lifter engine. Any additional volume/pressure will simply get dumped overboard at the pressure relief valve. In fact, it's possibly a dependability advantage.

The OE pump for the JH engine ('84 Rabbit GTi, non-hydraulic lifters) is 027 115 105E; the pump for the RD engine ('85 Golf GTi, hydraulic lifters) is 027 115 105.

Greg

[Campbell]

Greg,

Thanks for the info.. I am running a ITB car, an A1 VW. The block had been in a Golf that was wrecked, the prior owner had sold the head and had the block lying around. The engine stamping on it is so rusted you can't read the engine code, I am excited about it because it was bored out .40 over. The prior owner had bought the block from a junkyard and didn't know what it came out of. So I am putting the legal solid lifter head on it - I was tickled to find it had a windage tray and brand new oil pump in it so I was hoping I could use the pump without an issue.

Thanks

[Bill Miller]

Campbell,

While I don't think it should be an issue (purely my opinion), it may be. If you can't prove that it's the correct block for the car, you could have issues. But, based on the recent protest at LRP (documented here), it may not be an issue.

The only concern w/ the higher volume pump, is possibly extra pressure (not sure what the relief valve setting is), or possibly cavatation if the engine is a bit low on oil, due to the higher flow rate.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Eric Parham]

Originally posted by GregAmy:
I am unaware of any car that allows updating and backdating of hydraulic versus mechanical heads

I believe that as long as the Scirocco 1.8L 8V listing includes the 88 (which it does), the 88 hydraulic head is an allowed option to the 83-87 solid lifter head. I have called and verified this. The Bentley shows it as coming on top of the JH engine in the 88 Scirocco and Cabriolet, and this was never disputed.

Sciroccos did *lose* the right to use 10:1 pistons because of conflicting evidence (Bentley indicated JH at 8.5 with hydro head for 88-up) and/or lack of a clean specimen, but that did not affect the eligibility of the hydraulic head.


Originally posted by GregAmy:
That said, your existing pump will be fine. The pumps used on the hydraulic-head engines were higher volume to account for the lifters, and it does not hurt you to run that pump in a non-hydraulic lifter engine.

Have to disagree. In my experience, a high-volume pump often leads to too much oil accumulating on top of the head and causing problems (at least with tight engines at higher rpm).


Originally posted by GregAmy:
Any additional volume/pressure will simply get dumped overboard at the pressure relief valve. In fact, it's possibly a dependability advantage.

Makes sense, but I think the relief actually gets overloaded.


Originally posted by GregAmy:
The OE pump for the JH engine ('84 Rabbit GTi, non-hydraulic lifters) is 027 115 105E; the pump for the RD engine ('85 Golf GTi, hydraulic lifters) is 027 115 105.

Interesting. I do know that the original solid lifter pump had 25mm tall gears (relates to volume) and a 90psi pressure relief. The early hydraulic lifter pumps had at least 30mm gears and a 60psi relief. Later hydraulic lifter pumps had 36mm gears and a 60psi relief. When I actually tried to order a solid lifter pump a few years ago, everything the dealer listed or could get had at least 30mm gears. I've been saving and rebuliding the 25mm pumps for the racecar engines.

Edit: Correction, Bentley indicates:
JH at 8.5 with solid head for 85-87 (Scir & Cab)
JH at 8.5 with hydraulic head for 88-89 (Scir & Cab)
2H at 10.0 with hydraulic head for 90-93 (Cab only in the US)

BTW, the 83-84 is covered in the earlier Rabbit/Scirocco Bentley.

[This message has been edited by Eric Parham (edited November 08, 2004).]

[Campbell]

Eric,

What problems does having too much oil on the top cause, too little in the pan? I am not sure how the hydraulic lifters work, do they use that much more oil than solid lifters? Lastly, what does the "relief" valve do and where is it located?

Thanks, this is all new to me.

[joeg]

Too much oil on top causes parasitic power losses and takes oil away from where it is needed.

A pressure relif valve/spring is in the pump assembly to prevent dangerous HIGH pressure scenarios (like blowing off your oil filter or "reversing" your crank seals).

I have seen the filter blow-off; not nice.

Cheers.

[Eric Parham]

Yes, parsitic losses and particualrly that there's not enough oil left in the pan. Too much oil on top can also reach the vent and get pushed out into the overflow if there's *any* blowby. I've seen that problem averted by moving the vent to the block and using an oil separator, but I myself can't find enough support for that one in the rulebook. I have also seen the top oil getting past the intake valve seals in extreme situations. Just too many potential problems that can all be easily avoided by using the correct 25mm pump with the solid lifters, IMHO.

[Eric Parham]

In a hydraulic head, the lifters receive a steady stream of oil through orifices in the lifter bores, and stay pumped up that way (well, that's the idea anyway).

The pressure relief is the tiny hole and spring in the bottom plate of the VW oil pumps (above the pickup tube). It's usually peened in place with a tin cover.

[This message has been edited by Eric Parham (edited November 09, 2004).]

[Campbell]

I am getting ready to close up the botton end.. the engine has a windage tray and the oil pump didn't have one of the black deflectors on it however I have one I could put on it - for anyone that put a windage tray on your motor, did you still use the oil pick up deflector? thanks

[This message has been edited by Campbell (edited November 16, 2004).]

[Campbell]

Any recommendations on the oil pick up deflector? thanks

[racer14itc]

Originally posted by Campbell:
Any recommendations on the oil pick up deflector? thanks

Campbell,

I don't have any experience with the OEM pickup deflector, but I use a Schrick aluminum baffled pan, an OEM VW windage tray and one of these:

http://www.crank-scrapers.com/

MC

------------------
Mark Coffin
#14 GP BSI Racing/Airborn Coatings/The Shop VW
Scirocco
Zephyr Race Coaching and Consulting
http://pages.prodigy.net/Scirocco14gp

[VW16VRacer]

Shrick pan and the OEM windage tray 32mm pump with the restrictor to the head installed in the block. Never had problem!

Jon

[VW16VRacer]

FYI

VW/Audi has changed the spec on the oil filters for some of the 1.8/2.0. They have now speced the big diesel filter that will increase the oil by 1/2qt.

Just my .02 from an Audi tech