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Grumpa
05-14-2004, 11:31 AM
What will a good, LEGAL, IT VW 1.6L motor put out horsepower and torque wise? Anyone have any experience using the zero weight oils and/or 15(?) weight gear lubes?

SamITC85
05-14-2004, 11:48 AM
I have heard between 90 and 100Hp with a full out IT motor with a dynoed exhuast and header, but not sure how true that is.

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Sam Rolfe
TBR Motorsports
#85 ITC VW Rabbit
#85 GP Scirocco

joeg
05-14-2004, 03:24 PM
At the wheels?

Bill Miller
05-14-2004, 06:00 PM
Joe, I think that 100hp number is pretty close, but that's at the crank, not the wheels. Stock hp was 75, but the 1.6 motors got the G-grind cam (.423" lift vs. .406" lift for the stock cam).

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

D. Shine
05-16-2004, 01:36 PM
I have built and tested many of these. The best ITC motor made 99.6 and the worse was 97.2HP on a SAE corrected dyno @ 230 degrees oil temp,210 degrees water and Mobil One 5W20. The O weight oil would occasionally lose prime and made no more power.The factory stock cam made as much power as the G and overfilling by .5 quarts lost 7 HP These are sensitive to exhaust and tail pipe length. We couldnt make 100 no matter what we tried (legally).

Dick Shine

Team Rocket
05-16-2004, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by D. Shine:
The best ITC motor made 99.6 and the worse was 97.2HP on a SAE corrected dyno @ 230 degrees oil temp,210 degrees water and Mobil One 5W20.

Dick Shine

I test, analyze, tune and quote performance for jet engines as a living. The way Dick presented his data is the way to quote performance - whether torque or horsepower, or even thrust. He gives the variability in the data collected (97.2 to 99.6), quotes it at "corrected" conditions (the measured torque is scaled for inlet temperature and pressure, so we're talking apples and apples over a range of ambient temperature) and gives the operating conditions for the engine (oil and water temp). This way, meaningful comparisons can be made between different engines on different days.

Kudos Dick. Your experience shows.

Jim Conaty

Bill Miller
05-16-2004, 04:28 PM
Dick,

Thanks much for the data! Would you car to offer your opinion as to why the G-grind gives no performance gains (at least in terms of absolute hp). Also, does it move the hp curve, vs. the stock cam?

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

67ITB
05-17-2004, 01:38 AM
Welcome “junior member Dick”,
Glad to see that we could pull you away from Vortex for a little while.

Now don’t let this site pull you away from helping Eli go fast while I am gone.

Good to see you post here. So many times I have wanted to here what YOU have to say about a subject here.

NOW GET BACK TO WORK!!!!!

Matt Bal

D. Shine
05-17-2004, 06:06 PM
I was as surprised as anyone to find the cam results,but because Gs are available new for little money and good originals are hard to find,I use the G. Of course Matt they make more power on Iraqi gas,but you havent sent any!
The head is really the difference in these motors. The power moves with the head when I swap them.The lesson is to get as fresh and virginal head as you can find! I reject heads that have previously been rebuilt because the seats are sunk too much.Most rebuilders also do a 3 angle grind rendering the head illegal for IT.

D. Shine
05-17-2004, 06:07 PM
I was as surprised as anyone to find the cam results,but because Gs are available new for little money and good originals are hard to find,I use the G. Of course Matt they make more power on Iraqi gas,but you havent sent any!
The head is really the difference in these motors. The power moves with the head when I swap them.The lesson is to get as fresh and virginal head as you can find! I reject heads that have previously been rebuilt because the seats are sunk too much.Most rebuilders also do a 3 angle grind rendering the head illegal for IT.

racer14itc
05-17-2004, 06:30 PM
Question for you Dick: when you "overfill" by a 1/2 quart, do you mean over the "full" mark on the dipstick? Or is there a specific level you recommend?

Thanks!

MC

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Mark Coffin
#14 GP BSI Racing/Airborn Coatings/The Shop VW
Scirocco
Zephyr Race Coaching and Consulting
http://pages.prodigy.net/Scirocco14gp

D. Shine
05-17-2004, 07:36 PM
GOOD question Mark! I really should have been more specific. I consider midway between the marks to be full.I use different panscraper setups and cant specify quantity.
I do customize the pump to follow the curve more accurately,but that info is proprietary.Sorry. How is the GP car going? I am building one for next year. Say HI to your dad for me.

Dick Shine

racer_tim
05-17-2004, 07:54 PM
Dick, without giving up too many secrets, what would be your recommended space between the bottom of the pan and the bottom of the oil pickup? Basically, how deep should the oil be at the pickup?

If that's a secret, I understand. There must be a fine line between starving and loosing #3 rod bearing and over-filling.

Welcome to the GP ranks. Now I just need to get a job, pay back my wife, and then get the Wabbit fixed and I'll be back out.



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

racer14itc
05-17-2004, 07:57 PM
Thanks, Dick! The GP car is doing fine, 2 national wins and 2nd place so far this season. We'll be headed to Mid-Ohio for the Runoffs if everything goes well.

My current engine has a puzzling problem: it has too much oil pressure! At start-up, it has 120+ psi. When the oil is warm (220º), it runs about 85-90 psi @ 7000 RPM. I've swapped pumps, still too high. These same pumps gave 60-70 psi hot in the previous motor. I know I'm giving up hp but not sure what to do. It's been like this for two seasons.The oil temps are fine (usually 180-190ºF back to the bearings). Maybe something in the internal oil passages is causing the high pressures?

Hopefully the next motor will be back to normal oil pressure.

I'll say hi to Dad for you. He's got my old ITC/GP Scirocco and plans on rebuilding it to run in HP sometime next season. He started eyeballing my GP car so I gave him something to distract him...

MC

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Mark Coffin
#14 GP BSI Racing/Airborn Coatings/The Shop VW
Scirocco
Zephyr Race Coaching and Consulting
http://pages.prodigy.net/Scirocco14gp

racer_tim
05-17-2004, 08:04 PM
Marc, what diamer are your connections to your oil cooler? I noticed my oil pressure increase when I had to change coolers (spun #3 rod bearing), and run smaller AN adapters to the cooler.

I too run over 100 psi cold, but down to 40-50 hot @ speed. This on my LP 1.8 11.0:1 motor



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

racer_tim
05-17-2004, 08:05 PM
fat fingers

[This message has been edited by racer_tim (edited May 18, 2004).]

racer14itc
05-17-2004, 08:54 PM
Tim,

They're -10AN fittings everywhere. Exact same oil cooler setup as the previous engine, which had 60-70 psi hot. Built this motor, all new bearings, different block/crank/rods/pistons etc., and now this one has super high oil pressure. Weird.

I read somewhere that if the intermediate shaft bearings' oil supply holes are partially covered (not aligned perfectly with the holes in the block) it can cause high oil pressure but I haven't had this motor apart since I built it to check.

MC

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Mark Coffin
#14 GP BSI Racing/Airborn Coatings/The Shop VW
Scirocco
Zephyr Race Coaching and Consulting
http://pages.prodigy.net/Scirocco14gp

D. Shine
05-17-2004, 09:32 PM
I always slightly misalign the aux shaft bearings to get more oil to the crank!I machine down the pump body and gears to lower volume and modify the pressure relief. 180-190 degrees is too cold and is keeping the pressure a little high. You are also wasting some power.
10 PSI per 1000RPM just like Smoky said is the best. I have run 8 PSI per 1000 RPM but I dont sleep well when I do this.This is better for Tims 1.8 with larger rod bearings.What oul do you guys use?

Dick Shine

racer_tim
05-17-2004, 10:04 PM
Dick, I run Kendall Synthetic. I still have some left over after their Dual Sponsorship thing ended a couple of years ago.

I also still have some 20-50 that I use in my other cars.



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

Bill Miller
05-18-2004, 07:01 AM
Mark,

I'll just throw this out. Is there any chance that you got an oil pump for a hydraulic lifter motor?


Dick,

While we're on the subject of oil pressure/levels, what are your thoughts on running an Accusump?

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

racer14itc
05-18-2004, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Mark,

I'll just throw this out. Is there any chance that you got an oil pump for a hydraulic lifter motor?


Dick,

While we're on the subject of oil pressure/levels, what are your thoughts on running an Accusump?



Considering no hydraulic head motor has ever even been on the premises, and the oil pumps I have all came out of used 1.6 motors, there's no chance this is a hydraulic head oil pump.

I've always used the (used) 1.6 oil pumps because I read/heard/was told somewhere that they use less horsepower than the high volume/aftermarket oil pumps. Maybe because they're broken in?

Dick mentioned earlier that used cylinder heads were less desirable because once they seats have been cut, the seats are sunk too much. Is it legal to replace the seats with new ones and get the seat height back to the original height? I would think so.

MC


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Mark Coffin
#14 GP BSI Racing/Airborn Coatings/The Shop VW
Scirocco
Zephyr Race Coaching and Consulting
http://pages.prodigy.net/Scirocco14gp

SamITC85
05-18-2004, 12:07 PM
Dick,
Who are you building the G car for, or is it a secret? I was curious if you had any ideas on how to tackle the suspension issue when lowering the car. I know your set-ups always worked but with the ability to relocate suspension points in prod I was wondering if you had any ideas. Its good to see you on the boards.
Just to say something about Dicks motors. I improved by 3 seconds at NHIS and LRP once I finally bit the bullet and had one built. It was the best money I have ever spent for the ITC car.

Grumpa
05-18-2004, 03:06 PM
I will pose another question, Dick. You are machining the pump and gear set to obtain a given flow rate at a given rpm to sufficiently lube the rotating mass while not consuming excess horsepower. Which is more important in your estimation, oil pressure or flow? Or is it more a question of balance of the two. While you're entertaining my lack of knowledge, synthetic or refined crude? How tight can the 1.6L be twisted? I ran a late season session at Putnam Park last year and the motor was pulling over 7200 rpm. How good is the Tech Tronic header? Thanks for your time.

Joe Craven
05-18-2004, 04:53 PM
Mark, my 1.8l GTI has too little oil pressure at the moment. I suspect that the aluminum shavings from the last head failure got pumped through the oil pump and reduced it's efficiency. I've put some 50wt oil in it and pressure is back up to normal.

I had an excessive oil pressure problem with my German Ford 2.0L with hot oil pressures at 130psi even with a functioning oil pump bypass. I checked the aux bearing, rod bearing, main bearings and finally replaced the hi volume pump with a stock one and put in synthetic 30wt oil. Pressure is still a bit high but runs at 60psi once warm which is where the bypass in the oil pump diverts oil.

What oil thickness are you running? Can we put thinner oil in our VWs?

Bill Miller
05-18-2004, 07:32 PM
Mark, was just trying to figure out why the pressure was so high. After spending lots of years in the IT world, I learned not to dismiss any possibility out of hand. I figured you would have made sure it was the right pump, but it didn't hurt to ask.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

D. Shine
05-18-2004, 07:49 PM
The pressure is really what matters! Luckily if you get the pressure right you will be at the right volume. Too large a pump will be high at low RPM and maybe right at redline and too small gives you burned out bearings.The early pumps had the volume almost right but the pressure relief was absurd,the later pumps have the pressure correct mostly but the volume is way too much and it spends its life at the relief point.I have to make them to get what I want.

Dick Shine

pfcs
05-22-2004, 12:33 AM
not that I care, but where is the rule allowing shortened oilpumps?

67ITB
05-22-2004, 01:41 AM
[quote]Originally posted by D. Shine:
[B] I was as surprised as anyone to find the cam results,but because Gs are available new for little money and good originals are hard to find,I use the G. Of course Matt they make more power on Iraqi gas,but you havent sent any!

Dick,
As soon as your slacker gets more D&D coffee on the way I will send the gas. FYI on my trip this week it’s going for about 4 cents a gallon in Baghdad. So it's worth it to ship.
Kim said she is paying $2.30 a gallon. I don’t think this gas has the octane to work with Yellow Pig

Matt Bal

Mark LaBarre
05-28-2004, 05:43 PM
In my case, that was caused by a piece of plastic that fell off an electrical connection and landed in the oil opening in the block before the filter housing was installed. Oiled Blackhawk down real good when I reved it before warming it up.