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Bildon
01-13-2004, 12:54 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong...

The way I read the rule...cars with integral lights IN the bumpers/bumper covers (not mounted on top or hanging below) must stay intact. You can only cover them. Correct, or did I miss a fast track somewhere?

So these need to go back in...
http://bildon.com/lights.jpg

Bill Miller
01-13-2004, 07:28 AM
That's the way I read it.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

Knestis
01-13-2004, 11:07 AM
That's how I read it as well. However, I did replace the optional in-the-bumper foglights on my '96 GTI with the "dummy" inserts that came on non-fog versions. Not that I'm POSITIVE that any GTI's actually CAME w/o fogs... http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/confused.gif ...but the $80 that I got when I sold them on the 'Vortex offset the purchase of a toe gauge. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

K

Bildon
01-13-2004, 08:12 PM
OK... http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/eek.gif

http://bildon.com/lights2.jpg

Eric Parham
01-13-2004, 08:18 PM
Ah, those must be the optional "black paint" (only) bumper lights http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

Oh, wait a minute. If the "lights" were optional and only reflectors were standard, is the removal of just the reflectors permitted? I would not classify reflectors as "lights", although they might be required anyway. AFAIK, some of those "reflectors" barely even reflect, but are just there to cover up the unsightly tow hooks (hmmm, safety isuue?).

[This message has been edited by Eric Parham (edited January 13, 2004).]

Knestis
01-13-2004, 10:47 PM
Sorry, Eric - no rule that I know of gives permission to remove reflectors...

K

RSTPerformance
01-13-2004, 11:21 PM
I mentioned that to them... something about cost...

not my class didn't care....


Raymond

ITSRX7
01-14-2004, 10:33 AM
Just pulled a pic from the first race in April at NHIS - the debut of Brian's car - I must have been so mezmorized by the AWESOME paint and prep job he did, the front bumper holes got by me.

Those DEFINATELY have to be AT LEAST covered by by rule should have the fatory piece in there AND taped. If that were legal, us RX-7 guys would be getting A TON more cool air into the intake on the passenger side right behind those lenses!
http://www.flatout-motorsports.com/images/600_03110096.JPG

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)
http://www.flatout-motorsports.com/images/100_DSC_0014.JPG

[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited January 14, 2004).]

Eric Parham
01-15-2004, 12:14 PM
I'm not exactly sure what I'm looking at (owned a 1st gen rx7 and miatas, but never a 2nd gen), but it looks to me like the "bumper" lights on that 2nd gen are simply taped over rather than removed. The lower opening seems to be an opening in the spoiler (not "bumper"), which should be okay. If we're talking about the upper slatted-look (grill?) opening, I have no idea what that's supposed to be or actually is, but it seems to be above the "bumper", FWIW.

ITSRX7
01-15-2004, 12:36 PM
Eric,

I posted the picture to illustrate the holes that 'could' be open should someone choose to ignore the rule in this thread. Both the clear lens and the directional have to be taped (the clear one has clear tape) and BOTH have to be covered per the rules as they are in the pic.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited January 15, 2004).]

theenico
01-15-2004, 10:26 PM
Just for grins, does anyone actually know why Mazda put those clear lenses right in front of the retractable headlights?

There is a clue in the question. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

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Nico
KCRaceware (816) 257-7305
[email protected]

ITSRX7
01-16-2004, 09:03 PM
So you can 'flash' without having to raise the lights.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Bildon
01-20-2004, 01:34 PM
>> ... something about cost...

Actually the 'in bumper lights' are VERY expensive and hard to find and WILL be broken. This is another silly IT rule, IMHO.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bildon (edited January 20, 2004).]

ITSRX7
01-20-2004, 02:47 PM
I see no problem with broken lights in the bumper. Tape them over and they serve the same function - NO FRESH air in the engine bay.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

RSTPerformance
01-20-2004, 05:50 PM
Check out our sponsor Force 5 Automotive he has 4 or 5 that he is parting out. www.force5auto.com (http://www.force5auto.com) (they are not listed on his website but I have seen them, they are very clean cars, just worth more in parts than in whole)

Chris Simple is the owner, he is a very reasonable guy, tell him we sent you.

Raymond Blethen

Bildon
01-20-2004, 07:00 PM
Andy,
If I had pop up lights I might feel the same way. However on my Golf the round Euro lights have been a constant source of pain. They are not a simple 7" US spec light and replacement isn't cheap or easy. However your point is taping them... you can tape the hell out of the lights but once they catch a rock (or an RX7 http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif ) they cave in and are ugly and it eventually becomes impossible to tape over thin air.

So while your solution seems logical..it doesn't really work.

Sure I can continue to replace the lights after every few races. I understand the IT spirit http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif And that I shall continue to do.

- Bill

ITSRX7
01-20-2004, 07:14 PM
Here is my take:

Put a blocking plate in there and tape over it. It would be a weenie protest if someone wrote papers. The point is not to drop weight and not to have extra air.

If I was in your situation, I just might do the above.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Bildon
01-20-2004, 10:21 PM
http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/sly.gif
Hmmmmmm. Nahh, I'll just run 'em and smash 'em.

http://www.drivingitalia.net/forum/html//emoticons/eclipsee_steering.gif

RSTPerformance
01-21-2004, 07:28 AM
Andy-

That might be acceptable at home (IE: around people you know) but don't plan on going to the ARRC or plan on winnng a protest. unfortunatly someone will argue that you gain a performance advantage with the lower weight of the thin cardboard (or whatever other material you use) instead of glass...

I would think you would be found guilty as the line in the rules has to be drawn.

PS: on the BMW don't play grey areas like that, I would hate to see Nick get booted for something so little http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

Raymond

ITSRX7
01-21-2004, 07:58 AM
Raymond,

Don't worry about our cars - they are LEGAL. We work day and night to keep them that way. The last thing you want to do is win and be found illegal - it takes away everything you have worked for.

We are talking in the context of weekend to weekend Regional stuff here. I have said above, I would find one pair of lights, run them broken and keep taping them. Bill has stated they are ultra expensive and hard to find. In the real-world of local IT racing, providing a solution in the SPIRIT of the rules is a temporary solution.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Bildon
01-21-2004, 10:25 PM
http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/confused.gif ~~ Bill wonders why the ITS Mazda guys are spending so much time in the VW forum. ~~
Are they worried about the 207 HP ?

http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/cool.gif

ITSRX7
01-22-2004, 01:06 PM
Are you kidding me? I LOVE the Corrado and figure it can be a REAL FORCE in ITS. At that weight with that power it should be able to outrun an ITS RX-7 in a straight line. Now getting them to handle will be your job! Keep us up to date!

Besides, it's more of an ITAC presence than an Mazda...

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Bildon
01-24-2004, 02:58 PM
Yah, turning and breaking...it will be interesting. But I really just want to listen to the engine....so nice... http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

VR6 rev (http://www.houseofthud.com/rintintin/vr61-11.wav)

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bildon (edited January 24, 2004).]

Ralf
01-24-2004, 04:51 PM
EDIT:
Ended up building a small page showing a Corrado running in the Volkswagen Racing Series here in England. A small video of the car at speed also on the page.

http://www.geocities.com/ralf_lindow/Corrado.html


[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited January 24, 2004).]

RSTPerformance
01-29-2004, 08:51 PM
http://www.improvedtouring.com/chat2/

What about the Tow Hook on the 02 in the Golf III ITB page 3? I would like to add Tow hooks is this fine?

[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited January 29, 2004).]

RSTPerformance
01-29-2004, 08:53 PM
duplicate oops!

[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited January 29, 2004).]

Bildon
01-29-2004, 11:54 PM
Very good point there! That is the factory hook location and you must remove the light or reflector to screw it in. Interesting.

- Bill

ITSRX7
01-29-2004, 11:59 PM
There is something in the rules that states you can't do something prohibited to facilitate a legal modification. Unless it's specifically mentioned, that would be illegal.

AB

RSTPerformance
01-30-2004, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by ITSRX7:
There is something in the rules that states you can't do something prohibited to facilitate a legal modification. Unless it's specifically mentioned, that would be illegal.

AB

This one is a tough one since it is a legal tow hook and we need to use tow hooks all the time why wouldn't this be allowed. I would understand if I was to take out the lights and welded in my own tow hook but this is stock.

ITSRX7
01-31-2004, 10:54 AM
Just because it's stock doesn't mean it's legal. You CAN'T remove the bumper lights per the rules - show me someplace in the GCR a rule that superceeds the bumper light rule with specific reqard to factory tow hooks - it doesn't exist.

2004 ITCS - 7
D. No premitted component/modification shall additionally perform a prohibited function.

In this situation, you will have to weld up custom hooks like half of IT.

Rules are Rules. In this case it would give the car a competitive advantage - sorry!

AB

[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited January 31, 2004).]

itracer
01-31-2004, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by ITSRX7:
Here is my take:

Put a blocking plate in there and tape over it. It would be a weenie protest if someone wrote papers.

AB



If you look really close at the picture, he has the rest of the opening covered. It might even have the plastic of the lights/reflector under the tape. THe tape happens to be black. I guess it would be a "weenie protest."

Enjoy!

Jason
ITB Scirocco
Not the Jason that owns the car in question.

Eric Parham
02-01-2004, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by ITSRX7:
show me someplace in the GCR a rule that superceeds the bumper light rule with specific reqard to factory tow hooks

Hmmm, didn't find that... but, let's try this one:

"Any removable covers used to cover spare tires, tools, bins, etc., may be removed..." 2004 ITCS, section 9, subpart g.

On the Golf 3, for example, the tow hook comes in the *tool* bag, and must be reverse-threaded into the ONLY strengthened portion of the frame rail, which happens to be right behind the dummy reflector *cover*.

BTW, don't try towing by the bumper itself, because if just one of the four tiny bolts that holds it on is loose, it can tear right off the car (this, unfortunately, I know from experience).

Perhap it's a stretch to leave this *cover* off to make towing safer. But, not as much as the potential stretch of sheet metal and/or bumper retaining bolts, IMHO.

Knestis
02-01-2004, 09:37 AM
You should be a public defender Eric. I could have really used your help once when I was young and in trouble. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

I stood there with that nice, strong tow loop in my hand as well, picturing boring a hole in the reflector and poking it in there. I couldn't find any rule that allowed me to do that in either the SS or IT rules, however and I still haven't.

It would be an elegant solution but, weenie protest or not, it's a too-big stretch.

K

Dave Zaslow
02-01-2004, 10:25 AM
Nor could you carry the towing eye in the car as 17.31 states "A removable towing eye carried inside the car is not acceptable." It further states "These towing eyes shall be easily accesible without removal or manipulation of bodywork or other panels."

Personally I think that the factory engineered location for towing is probably better then one I can fab. I would suggest that the ITCS be modified to state:

"OEM removable Towing Eyes may be permanently mounted in the oem location. Where this requires the removal or manipulation of bodywork or other panels, those panels may be modified solely to allow the installation of the towing eye so that no removal or manipulation of bodywork or other panels is required . All other requirements of GCR section 17.31 shall apply."

Is this agreeable? Time for letters?

Now how about that rear tow hook that is tucked behind a removable panel? Anyone got language for that? The way that panel is held on, it may not survive the start of its first race :-)

Dave Zaslow

RSTPerformance
02-01-2004, 01:18 PM
Dave... are you implying that you have a new car? How about Joel? If so it looks like we will have 4+ VW in NE!

Eric Parham
02-02-2004, 11:44 PM
Kirk, Thanks http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

Dave, I like your proposal but worry that the stock front towing eye might protrude too much if left in place. I'd like to be able to put a hinged towing eye right there, though.

Raymond, after buying 5 A3-chassis cars (3 GTIs, 2 Jettas), and reselling just 1 Jetta, I'm still the proud owner of four (4) A3s (much to my neighbor's disappointment). I'll definitely be running an A3 this year, but it will probably be a VR6 in ITS (whether or not I scrape up the bucks for an 02A Quaife). Currently undecided on Jetta or GTI, though, although leaning towards GTI (even though it means moving an entire cage)...

P.S. -- Note the shadow cast by Jason's tow hook on p.3 of the "Golf 3 ITB" thread.


[This message has been edited by Eric Parham (edited February 02, 2004).]

Bildon
02-14-2004, 09:11 PM
...Meanwhile back at the ranch.

Simple solution to the broken light problem. Velcro! 3 strips on each light and then just slapped a thin peice of aluminum sheet on the front. Keeps the rocks from smashing the lights and is easily removable for when the rules nazis show up.

Oh, and I also put some 20 mil thick vinyl on the headlights to protect them. Griot sells it.

http://bildon.com/corradolights.jpg

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Bill Sulouff - Bildon Motorsport (http://www.bildon.com)
Volkswagen Racing Equipment
## 2003 ITB NYSRRC Champs ##

[This message has been edited by Bildon (edited February 14, 2004).]

ITSRX7
02-14-2004, 09:55 PM
Gorgeous.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967

Joe Murray
02-16-2004, 09:22 PM
I can't find any information regarding the in bumper lights issue in the ITCS section.
It is in the Touring category and Showroom section. What am I missing? http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/confused.gif

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ahondafor?

Bildon
02-16-2004, 11:32 PM
ITCS
Body/Structure 8.b.

Safety 10.5.g.

Joe Murray
02-17-2004, 09:00 PM
......duuuuh! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/redface.gif

Thanks.

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ahondafor?

Knestis
02-17-2004, 10:20 PM
Go to the stock car suppliers and buy a couple of Monte Carlo headlight stickers and cut them to fit on the aluminum bits...

K