Golf/Jetta 3 transaxles

[Eric Parham]

My '96 2-door came to me without a gearbox (or an engine, for that matter). The GCR lists a 1.21 3rd gear for G/J3 in both IT and SS. My '99 G/J3 Bentley manual only seems to list one gearbox with a 1.28 3rd gear for US 2L cars.

Based on the Rabbit GTI experience, I assume that this Bentley edition is incomplete. Does anyone know which gearbox code(s) have the gearset listed in the GCR? If the Bentley gearset is also(?) accurate, should we try to get it added to the IT specs as an alternate?

TIA,
Eric
[email protected]

[Bill Miller]

Eric,

Try www.scirocco.org (http://www.scirocco.org)

They have a chart w/ the tranny codes and gear ratios. I can't vouch for it being 100% accurate, but at least it might be a start.

Don't the A3 cars use the O2A or O2J (cable shifted boxes)?

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Eric Parham]

Thanks Bill. That's a good link on scirocco.org, but I didn't see what I was looking for.

Although the 6-cyl G/J3s used a cable-shifter box, many (but not all) 4-cyl G/J3s used an 020 rod-shifted box.

My *guess* is that all '93-'99.5 G/J3 2.0L cars sold in the US had the 020 rod-shifter box, but I could be wrong since I never had a 4-cyl G/J3 before this newest ITB project car.

This '96 4-cyl "GTI" definitely had an 020-type rod-shifter box, as the rods are still there http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

Haven't found the code(s) I need yet, but I'll have to check the ETKA CD next.

[This message has been edited by Eric Parham (edited November 17, 2003).]

[Greg Amy]

Eric, the Bentley is considered to be the official factory shop manual for Volkswagens. If there's any conflicts, I'm sure that tech must defer to the Bentley...

The ETKA (I've got v5) will only give you reference to gear ratios when crossed to a transaxle code; I don't think there's anything in there that will tell you what code is OEM for the chassis. For instance, I show that for the 1996 there were two gear ratios for the 1.8-2.0 liter, 55-85KW: 36/28 (1.286) for the ATH, AMC, CHD, CHE, DFP, and DFQ transaxle; and 37/27 (1.37) for the APW, CHB, and DFN transaxles.

I have no idea where SCCA got 1.21 from; no VW I'm aware of had that high of a third gear (except for the rip-snortin' 4-speed diesel Rabbits, at 1.06). I'd suggest that's a mistake.

Now, before you get to out of shape, Kirk Knestis *just* bought a 1996 Golf III. Kirk, what's your transaxle code (stamped on a flat machined area on the bottom front of the bell housing...?)

Greg

[Knestis]

It's got a Gemini 6-speed dog box in it. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

Seriously - I'll check tomorrow when it's light out.

K

[Bildon]

020 shaft shifted box for sure.
These cars came with all sorts in them. These were the "whatever is in the parts bin" years for VW.

I'd guess a CHD or DFQ is most common.
But 1.21 is wrong. Should be 1.29. That 1.37 (3rd) box look nice though. Can anyone verify a US, gas, G3 with these gears in it? APW, DFN, CHB?

3.67 3.45 1.94 1.37 1.03 0.85



------------------
Bill Sulouff - Bildon Motorsport (http://www.bildon.com)
Volkswagen Racing Equipment
## 2002 ITB NYSRRC Champs ##

[HOOSER 99]

For what its worth--
these are the codes on the two I have

94 DFQ
95 CHE they both have the same ratios
1.94 1,29 0.97 .080

jerry monaghan

[Knestis]

By the time I got the car to the shop it was dark and raining so I pooped out. I'll check this weekend when I'm painting the cage...

K

[Eric Parham]

A little more research turned up the following VW dealer part numbers for large-spline 020 Golf III tranny 3rd gears (note that this does not include the euro-only 16V at 1.44):

VW part no. = teeth = ratio:
020311131H = 37/27 = 1.37
020311131B = 36/28 = 1.29
020311131L = 35/29 = 1.21

Still no idea what the appropriate tranny codes are, though.

[This message has been edited by Eric Parham (edited November 19, 2003).]

[Greg Amy]

I found the following from the ETKA:

ATH: no data
AMC: 08/92-12/93 Golf
CHD: 08/92-07/95 Jetta
CHE: 08/92-12/93 Golf, 01/94-10/95 Golf, 08/92-07/93 Jetta
DFP: 12/95-07/96 Golf and Jetta
DFQ: 08/95-07/96 Golf and Jetta
APW: no data
CHB: 08/92-11/95 Golf, 08/93-07/95 Jetta
DFN: 08/95-07/96 Golf

[Eric Parham]

Another bit of info: The TDI models seem to have had the cable-shifter (non-020) tranny, and hence entirely different ratios.

[Eric Parham]

My local dealer has the 1.37 and the 1.29 in stock for a '95 Golf, but the 1.21 is NLA! I'll try to get them to document that and see where it goes. The price is about $140 each.

[Eric Parham]

Does anyone have easy access to a 1993 Golf "Citi", and if so, can we get the tranny code?

[Greg Amy]

In 1996 the 1.8 and 2.0 cars had the 020 rod shifter, and the 2.8 VR6 engines had the cable shifter.

You're looking for a whole transaxle, not just a third gear, correct? ANd you're trying to find the most optimal box to put into it? I'd suggest that the 1.28 third-gear transaxle is probably the only legal gearbox for your car. The other ones are probably for Canada or Mexico...

Seems like you're looking for a DFQ...

[Eric Parham]

Thanks Greg. That IS a "DFQ" as opposed to a "DQF" http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif BTW, I could also use some info/advice on flight issues (seriously, just getting started) http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif [email protected].

Yes, I want a whole gearbox, but the OEM gear part numbers and local dealer availability seem to be good clues as to what boxes actually came in the cars. Just to be clear, since I'm running IT rather than SS, it doesn't have to be from a '96 (assuming all eligible years 93-98 or 99.5 get added).

Since the Bentley shows the 1.29/.97/.81 DFQ box, I think you're right that it's OK to run one if that's what's inside (although I'd ask SCCA for an alternate equipment classification to be safe).

The 1.21/.97/.81 GCR-listed box really looks good on paper (smallest 3-5 span), which could make a difference with the proper final drive at a track like NHIS (very low and very high-speed corners). So, I'd most like to find one of those (i.e., one that matches the specs listed in the GCR, whatever code that might be). The discontinued part number for that 1.21 3rd gear seems to prove that they did exist at some point. I'm thinking it might have been in something like the Golf "Citi", but would love to know for certain (and the tranny code would be a start, as well as indenspensible for finding an affordable used one).

I'm also slightly excited about the possibility of a 1.37/1.03/.85 box (same 3-5 gear spacing as DFQ, but might not need an aftermarket R&P), especially since the US dealer carries the parts (indicating to me, anyway, that they probably go into a US box of as yet unknown code).

Just trying to figure it all out in advance, rather than next season when I won't have the time http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif Cheers!

[This message has been edited by Eric Parham (edited November 19, 2003).]

[Eric Parham]

Bill, watch out for that CHD box; it's a super-wide with 1.29/.91/.75!

[Knestis]

Links

http://www.kraftswerk.com/home.html

These resources reinforce that the CHE and DFQ are the only options for the '93-99 2.0 Golfs, and that the gearset is indeed 3.455, 1.944, 1.286, 0.969, 0.805 .

K

[Bildon]

We should try to figure out what parts are listed in ETKA and in dealer stock that are not in the Bentley and get the SCCA to amend the ITCS ASAP.

The last thing we need is for the first few ITB Golf 3s to hit the track to be found running "un-approved" parts. This goes for all parts not just gear sets.



------------------
Bill Sulouff - Bildon Motorsport (http://www.bildon.com)
Volkswagen Racing Equipment
## 2003 ITB NYSRRC Champs ##

[Eric Parham]

The Bentley for U.S. cars differs from the GCR for only 3rd gear, and both 3rd gears were OEM VW parts. Is one totally wrong, or are both simply incomplete? As close-ratio Rabbit GTI drivers well know, the Bentleys can be incomplete in particularly this area.

The AMC coded gearbox may have been relatively uncommon, but was certainly available during the model run as evidenced by my 1996 U.S. trunk label listing "AMC" (to be photographed and preserved).

Replacement parts for the DFQ (and CHE?) coded boxes are still available, and indicate the ratios (including 1.29 3rd) that Kirk listed above, which differ from the GCR only for 3rd gear. Note that the ETKA lists *replacement* parts, and not necessarily what originally came in the boxes.

Similar to the old Rabbit FF-code 4th gear situation, VW may have changed the 3rd gear ratio for one or more of the DFQ, CHE and/or AMC gearboxes during the run. This makes sense since the 1.21 3rd gear part number is NLA as a replacement part for any gearbox, but must have originally had an application.

I haven't found any evidence that the boxes with the 1.37 were available in the U.S. (possibly just Canada). That's not conclusive, but doesn't prevent our resolution of the remaining issue (gearsets with 1.29 and 1.21 3rd ratios).

Therefore, I'm planning to send a letter to the Comp Board asking that the alternate gearset (actually, just alternate 3rd gear of 1.29) that is listed in the Bentley be *added* to (NOT replace) the ITCS listed gearset.

Any further comments before I send the letter?

[This message has been edited by Eric Parham (edited December 01, 2003).]

[Knestis]

This is a comment only on the way I THINK the comp board thinks...

I would tend to think that it would be safer to propose that alternate TRANSMISSIONS be allowed, rather than alternate gearsets or 3rd gear pairs. This aligns with the up- and back-date philosophy of the ITCS and, if you simply cite the letter designators of US-model cars on the spec line FIRST, then detail what the ratios actually are, it will be less likely to make anyone anxious.

Just adding the one gear ratio makes it look like you are proposing the update/backdate of one part of an assembly.

K

[Dave Zaslow]

Kirk and Eric,

Thanks for dangling the question on Vortex.
I have gone through Etka and Bentley and too many website compilations of gearboxes and years. There are 9 trans codes (Etka)that could have come in an A3. I have found the following:

3.67, 3.45, 1.94, 1.29, 0.91, 0.75

ATH
8/92 - 12/93 Golf, 8/92 - 10/92 Jetta
CHD
8/92 - 12/95 Golf, 8/92 - 7/95 Jetta
DFP
12/95 - 7/96 Golf, 12/95 - 7/96 Jetta


3.67, 3.45, 1.94, 1.29, 0.97, 0.80

AMC
8/92 - 12/93 Golf, 8/92 - 10/92 Jetta
CHE
8/92 - 10/95 Golf, 8/94 - 7/93 Jetta
DFQ
8/95 - 7/96 Golf, 8/95 - 7/96 Jetta


3.67, 3.45, 1.94, 1.37, 1.03, 0.85

APW
8/92 - 12/93 Golf, 8/92 - 10/92 Jetta
CHB
8/92 - 11/95 Golf, 8/93 - 7/95 Jetta
DFN
8/95 - 7/96 Golf

Note that the years/models come from Etka and a good list created by [email protected].

I have checked with VW dealership techs and parts people asking "how do I know what trans came in what model"? There answer has always been "read the code on the tranny". This seems unreasonable. We either need the MVMA sheets (or their equivalent) for all of the years the A3 was made, or some equivalent authoritative source. I suggest we look for the brochures that were put out by VW during '93-'98 model years and see what differences there were for the different trim levels. Anyone know a friendly VW literature collector?

BTW I have started stripping a '95 Sport, CHE code box.

Should we start an A3UG?

Have Fun Kids!

Dave Z

[This message has been edited by Dave Zaslow (edited December 02, 2003).]

[Knestis]

I have web publishing and hosting if we want to start a dedicated discussion outside of this resource, or if anyone has resources that they want put up. Chances are that this venue will work OK however, unless someone really thinks it's worth the time to do otherwise...

K

[Greg Amy]

Where on Vortex are you guys chatting? I'd like to keep up to date.

If you move to somewhere besides here, please let me know. You just can't predict what class I might end up in next...

[Bob Burns]

> I would tend to think that it would be
> safer to propose that alternate
> TRANSMISSIONS be allowed, rather than
> alternate gearsets or 3rd gear pairs.

As a former Comp Board member and former Chairman of the IT Advisory Committee, I agree. Updates and backdates are supposed to be done as assemblies, not individual parts. Treat the alternate transmission proposal as if it was a very specific update/backdate request and it might get more favorable treatment.

Bob...

[Eric Parham]

Greg,

The Vortex thread raises more questions than it answers, but it's at: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1119672

[imported_Webmaster]

>>> Should we start an A3UG?

I think it would benefit those who are going to get an A3 down the road to continue discussions here. However if you really think you need a new forum elsewhere may I suggest:
http://www.volkswagenracer.com/Forums/

These forums are lying dormant until another website is finished. You can post whatever you like and you can request new catagories be added to suit your needs.


------------------
Webmaster - www.ImprovedTouring.com (http://www.ImprovedTouring.com)
http://www.ImprovedTouring.com/images/it_sig.gif

[Dave Zaslow]

Bill,

I bow to your wisdom. This forum is just fine.

Eric,

I think alternate transmissions would be given the hairy eyeball by the comp board. They did get a lot of flack on the classification itself. If all of the Golfs are on the same spec line, and we can find the models they came with, they would be defacto legal. There must be a souce of info somewhere....

Dave Z

[Eric Parham]

Dave,

I agree on all counts. I think that your brochure idea is the next good lead, but I haven't even found a single one yet. I'm considering posting a WTB ad on VWVortex.

At this stage, I now realize that it's probably not the right time to submit this to the Comp Board. When we hit the track next year, I, for one, will consider the GCR-listed gearbox (1.21/.97/.81), the Bentley-listed gearbox (1.29/.97/.81) and probably even the ETKA-listed gearbox (1.37/1.03/.85) as assemblies that should survive a protest in the presence of the respective documentation.

IMHO, any additions or deletions from that list should await discovery of additional highly-reliable information.

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Dave Zaslow:
Bill,

I bow to your wisdom. This forum is just fine.


For what it's worth... it definately makes it easier for your ITAC/CB/BoD representitives to keep up on the issues when all the different makes and models are included on the same website... Kind of like "one-stop-snooping"... http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX
http://home.comcast.net/~djjordan/Web/240_OR_041203_thumb.jpg

[Bob Burns]

Originally posted by Eric Parham:
At this stage, I now realize that it's probably not the right time to submit this to the Comp Board.
There is wisdom in your words. The Comp Board sometimes likes to see how new classifications or reclassifications play out before making changes. Unfortunately, it forces competitors to struggle along for a year or two while the data accumulates, but it's just part of the process. Let's see how many A3 Golfs hit the track before we start asking for things.

Bob...

[Knestis]

The short version of the problem however is that by using an OEM gearbox from another year car on the same spec line, an entrant might fall afoul of the ratio requirement from the ITCS.

This presumes that all of the MkIII Golfs do end up on listed as the "same car," following typical practice...

K

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Knestis:
The short version of the problem however is that by using an OEM gearbox from another year car on the same spec line, an entrant might fall afoul of the ratio requirement from the ITCS.

Kirk et.al.,

If all the cars are listed on the same spec line, as presumed above, then all the available ratios would have to be listed in the appropriate spec line box. I'll have to double-check this, but my understanding of the update/backdate rule is that, if the cars are listed on the same spec line, interchange of assemblies is allowed between years.

In the scenario you mention, if the years for the Golf III are all bunched together on the same spec line, then interchange between them should be legal...

See the spec line for the ITA BMW 325e/es, the ITA Buick Skyhawk V-6, or the ITA Mazda RX-3/RX-3SP as examples of how I understand the spec line would have to read...

If the documentation exists to show that the years in question came to the US with a number of different ratios, then you would have enough information to get them all listed on the spec line as I understand the process...

If that's wrong, feel free to tell me so! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX
http://home.comcast.net/~djjordan/Web/DJ_AV1.jpg

[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited December 05, 2003).]

[Knestis]

That's exactly the way I see it, D. but I can just as easily picture someone thinking that Golf III entrants are trying to do something sneaky if a request goes in specifically requesting that "alternate" gear ratios be listed.

It seems clear that it's an E&O issue - since the specs that have been there since the car was listed in A are incomplete but I may not be trusting enough of the system (surprise, huh?) to believe that the request won't raise some red flags, regardless of what documentation is submitted. (I'm kind of picturing a variation on "the weight is correct as listed" or a bad case of tablis permanensis setting in.)

How about this getting attached to the ITAC review process - already underway? - of the proposal that other year Golf IIIs be added to the ITB spec line?

K

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Knestis:
How about this getting attached to the ITAC review process - already underway? - of the proposal that other year Golf IIIs be added to the ITB spec line?

K

If you want to send me the documentation that lists the appropriate models, years, and ratios, I'd be happy to see that it gets processed...

[email protected]



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX
http://home.comcast.net/~djjordan/Web/DJ_AV1.jpg

[Knestis]

Ohhh, Eric...

[Knestis]

Finally - I have a CHE 06095. I did some gear charts using Gear Crasher (shareware from www.davesport.com) (http://www.davesport.com)) and the APW/CHB/DFN gearset looks to be the best, assuming that (a) it is OEM for US Golfs, and (B) it can be located.

K

[JOESELLSVW]

Hey Gang, It's been a while since I've chimed in here. After my auto-gymnastics routine in turn three at the first MARRS race this year, getting my car back to full prep was a little more of a challenge than I was up for at the time. I'm now seriously thinking about joining the A# in ITB ranks and wanted to know a current status on the 94 and newer cars. I watched the 12 Hr documentary on SPEED this weekend and I'm very much in the mood to prepare for 2004. I "took the rest of the year off" from road racing and did several autocroses. I was running a MINI Cooper in H Stock, as I now work for a MINI dealer..... this will make a fun IT CAR.. little slow for SSC, but with some camber adjustments and suspensions tweaks... fun car! If anyone can give me an update it'd be great.... Im going to call Denver, uh Topeka, but sometimes you can't get a reply or a voice to talk to. JOE

[Bill Miller]

Hey Joe,

Nice to see you posting here again! I looked for you at the Labor Day dbl. as I had the new HProd Rabbit out, but didn't see you on the entry list. Take if from personal experience, the Turn 3 shuffle is no fun!!! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/eek.gif


------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Eric Parham]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
If you want to send me the documentation that lists the appropriate models, years, and ratios, I'd be happy to see that it gets processed...

Thanks Darin, I'll email the pertinent documentation early next month (can't get to my Bentley manual or ETKA CD until then). Once received, please LMK if you need anything else.

[This message has been edited by Eric Parham (edited December 16, 2003).]