Q: VW Enthusiast choices?

[Bildon]

Question:
In say, 5 years, when the old A1 and A2 GTIs become obsolete in ITB...what do you VW guys envision racing?

Will you stay in "B"?
Will you go to NASAs GTI Cup?
Will you go to Ltd Prod?
Will you build a new car? If so, what?



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Bill Sulouff - Bildon Motorsport (http://www.bildon.com)
Volkswagen Racing Equipment
## 2002 ITB NYSRRC Champs ##

[JohnRW]

Do you mean 'obsolete' in terms of being no longer competitive, or 'obsolete' as in 'dropped from the GCR' ?

There are cars from the late 1960's and early 1970's still listed (and, in the case of Z cars and Volvo's...still winning). Why would a car in production from the 80's fall out of the IT GCR in the next 5 years ?

There is a tremendous amount of squawking in the Production classes about simply combining classes, and it doesn't really involve that many competitors & cars. I would guess that the much larger (and equally vocal) IT classes would not take kindly to elimination of a good, reliable & competitive chassis.

[Knestis]

As a LONG time VW fan/driver/racer I have already pretty much committed to racing a Honda product in 2004 - although if the GolfIII does end up in ITB, I will very quickly re-assess the situation.

One criteria for my decision is that the tub must be not more than one generation older than the current new street car model. This is the case so that (a) the car is not perceived as being "old" by the young people targeted by the educational efforts that I tie into my racing, (B) I will be able to get longer-term use out of it, before parts get scarce/expensive, and © the car has maximum appeal for promotional use with marketing partners.

These concerns outweigh brand loyalty or experience with a particular marque in my mind.

K

EDIT - in reply to John's post, Club Racing has proven that it is quite willing to keep a car on the roles well after it is reasonable to do so (given the practical considertions involved).

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited May 14, 2003).]

[racer_tim]

Originally posted by Bildon:
Question:
In say, 5 years, when the old A1 and A2 GTIs become obsolete in ITB...what do you VW guys envision racing? Will you go to Ltd Prod?


Bill, already done that. Converted the car to LP GP.

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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 LP GP Wabbit
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[This message has been edited by racer_tim (edited May 14, 2003).]

[Bildon]

John, I mean as newer cars inevitably obsolete the older cars. My 1.8 GTI vs. my 1.8 MGB is an example of engineering progress.

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Bill Sulouff - Bildon Motorsport (http://www.bildon.com)
Volkswagen Racing Equipment
## 2002 ITB NYSRRC Champs ##

[evanwebb]

Hey Bill! I guess my carbureted ITC Scirocco is probably not the way I want to go in the long run, and hence I am building an ITB Volvo 142. Fast, RWD, bricklike...

[racer_tim]

Originally posted by evanwebb:
Hey Bill! I guess my carbureted ITC Scirocco is probably not the way I want to go in the long run, and hence I am building an ITB Volvo 142. Fast, RWD, bricklike...

That would be a great car for LP HP.

Tim

[evanwebb]

I'm thinking about it for LPHP, but I'm not sure if I want to spend the money there, it would be a few $K just to get going... But Mark Coffin seems to be enjoying GP, so I'm thinking about it... I'd have to figure out how to get rid of 200 lb from the car...

[Bill Miller]

Well, since it looks like the deal on my ITB Rabbit GTI is just about closed, I'd have to say that I'll probably be racing a Prod car. Can't say if it'll be full prep or l-p by then, but pretty sure it'll be a VW. Unless of course, SM's are $3k - $5k! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/eek.gif

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI
SCCA 279608

[racer_tim]

Evanwebb, it's not that expensive to convert. You do need some safety things if you don't have those in your car now. Fuel Cell, Firesystem (not just a bottle) windshield clips, rear window straps, remove the headlights and all door glass.

That's about it. Of course, you can do some additional performance upgrades, but the suspension is still IT and so is the head. Higher compression and better cam is the only thing that is different than IT.

Oh yea, slicks, but you can still use your 13x6 rims.

To loose the 200 lbs, is quite easy. Replace the hood and hatch with fiberglass, and replace the rear side windows and the rear window with Lexan. That would save you 200 lbs right off the bat. You could also remove both bumpers as well.



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 LP GP Wabbit
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[GTI Cup]

Originally posted by racer_tim:
Evanwebb, it's not that expensive to convert. You do need some safety things if you don't have those in your car now. Fuel Cell, Firesystem (not just a bottle) windshield clips, rear window straps, remove the headlights and all door glass.

That's about it. Of course, you can do some additional performance upgrades, but the suspension is still IT and so is the head. Higher compression and better cam is the only thing that is different than IT.

Oh yea, slicks, but you can still use your 13x6 rims.

To loose the 200 lbs, is quite easy. Replace the hood and hatch with fiberglass, and replace the rear side windows and the rear window with Lexan. That would save you 200 lbs right off the bat. You could also remove both bumpers as well.

Whoa! Seems a lot less complicated than I originally thought. This is definitely an option for me in the next year or so.


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Glenn
MARRS ITB #07 (http://www.geocities.com/gt1vr6/veedubs.html)

[Bill Miller]

Glenn,

I talked to you about this 2 years ago at Summit Point. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI
SCCA 279608

[Knestis]

Let's not ignore the bigger question behind Bill's inquiry - "Who is worried enough about VW products being left in the IT wasteland, that they are willing to write a note to the Comp Board supporting the Golf III move to ITB?" Anyone? Bueller?

There is a WORLD of difference between spending X thousand dollars to reach some level of competitiveness in IT and spending the same dough for the opportunity to make up the numbers in a Production class.

I freely admit that I am not a P-car fan but doesn't anyone understand the order of magnitude cost difference required to reach the same level of competitiveness? I particularly like "Oh yea, slicks..." Last time I had anything to do with slick-shod race cars, I remember donut money flying out of wallets like monkeys out of... Well, you know. We had two non-repairable flats in one weekend on an S2000 and - ka-ching!

VW products have had a place in IT since its inception and it would be a shame for that to change.

K

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited May 15, 2003).]

[racer_tim]

Sorry Kirk, I didn't mean to piss anybody off. I'm a die hard VW fan and have owned at least 4 VW's since 1981. I was just pointing out other options for IT folks to go.

The main reason that I converted to another class (read not better or upper) was "quality of track time", plain and simple. Most of the regions will allow up to the max # of cars on track per the GCR, and that means a lot of banging and grinding for the IT group. You just don't get that with $100k GT1 cars and the like that normally are grouped with the small bore production cars.

If I could do it over again, I would build a LP GP VW and also have an IT VW as well. Seems like the A1 Scirocco in ITC and/or LP HP is the car to have.

Oh well, I'll just have to keep flogging around with my Energizer Bunny.



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 LP GP Wabbit
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[Knestis]

I'm certainly not pissed off, Tim - no problem there - and I truly do respect your logic for running Production. I just worry that presenting LP as an alternative to Improved Touring, rather than addressing the issues in IT, is comparing apples and oranges and can be misleading to people who don't have the experience to know otherwise.

K

[JohnRW]

Bill - to get back to your original question (but a slight tilt from the "VW-only" side)(warning - the following was dashed off in about 20 minutes...logic is somewhat questionable):

IT needs to keep one or two classes where older, cheap and reliable 'grocery-getters' can race, and be reasonably competitive. 944's, BMW's and RX-7's are fine for some, but there needs to be room for the 'budget racer'. That's what made IT fields HUGE in the 80's and 90's, and that's what attracted people like me to it - HUGE fields, CHEAP cars. I still have several friends who are functionally semi-unemployed (just invented a new employment status category), who still manage to race in IT. You can't do that in Prod or GT or open-wheel thingys.

There are the 'marque-conscious', who will only drive certain kinds of cars. They are offset by people like me, who would race Roto-Rooter trucks if there was a big field of Roto-Rooter trucks to play with. Think of it as "VW Guys" vs. "Guys who race VW's". Don't know what the percentage is of either, but I'd speculate that it's 50%-50%.

There are a lot of cheap little buckets from the 80's and 90's that were never classified in Showroom Stock, which raises a "chicken-egg conundrum". They won't be classified in IT until somebody asks that they be classified, and nobody will take the effort to do the legwork and research to ask for classification if there is no reasonable assurance that they will eventually get classified, and classified in something where they have even a slight chance.

What to do ? Since there is new thinking going on in the Nat'l Comp Board, why not include in the discussions the easy/speedy addition of cars to the ITCS, in classes where they would have a slight chance. Don't do what was done with the Neons and Nissans from SSB & SSC...dumping them into ITS might have massaged the bruised egos of former Comp Board members who got their asses handed to them on the track, but it sure didn't put them in a class where they had any hope of competition potential. Counter to the current GCR class philosophy, IT needs address competition potential (maybe underway now) and also more rapidly add newer cars. Lengthening of the SS 'life-window' to 10 years shouldn't stop newish cars from entering IT.

New car classification needs to be continuous. Although there are 35 year old cars classified in IT, I'm not advocating that we build a system that keeps them all at the front of the pack. (Kirk - curious about your edited comment "...well after it is reasonable to do so..." - could you expand on that ?) We can't get into the situation that the Prod guys are in now, with a core of people trying to preserve the investment they've made for 30-40 years by barely cracking the door on newer stuff that could beat them silly. IT should be different. Cars get old. Cheap cars are disposable, so nobody really gets gored hard. If there are a few classes for cheap, reliable cars at the bottom of IT, and new cars are continuously added to the ITCS, IT will stay healthy for a good long time.

Back when Gremlins were classified in ITA, me & Mikey scoured the planet for a non-rusty Gremlin X...258 cu in straight six, big freakin discs up front. Could have been a killer car, even if it was all straight line speed. We never got to find out if you could even get one of the freakin things to 'turn', as we never found a solid one. Where are the Gremlin-replacements from the 80's & 90's in IT ? Where are the Opel-replacements ?

[Knestis]

You make precisely the point that the IT2 idea tries to address, John - the most popular cars on US roads in the 1990s are not listed where they do anyone any good in IT...

My comment about the Production classes keeping cars around longer than makes sense goes to the standard that keeps a car on the rolls as long as anyone (1 person even) wants to race it. Think the Gremlin was rare? Try finding a Turner.

At some point, a car becomes "vintage," defined not by its age but by scarcity. I know that it is counter to the traditions of the "club" but if it is detrimental to the livelihood of a class to keep an old car on the list, it should be dropped.

This is the basis of one of my concerns about competition adjustments (bleah). If I am running a 1968 Ford Cortina in ITC, I can expect that it will be given a chance to be competitive, right? If I successfully petition the Comp Board for allowances (or handicaps on other cars) and my Cortina gets really competitive, what are the chances that others could build one? Where will the chassis come from?

Say competition adjustments (bleah) come to be, the original GTI gets a weight break, and it suddenly becomes the car to have in ITB - what happens? We end up with an increasingly rare car being the hot ticket: Not a key to growth of the class. This is of course the opposite of what Bill S. (and others) are worried about...

Kirk


[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited May 16, 2003).]

[Bill Miller]

Kirk,

I'm not entirely convinced that's what they're 'worried' about. My take on making that Cortina the car to have in ITC, is that it would undergo subsequent adjustment(s) that would not make it the car to have. IMHO, that's the whole point of comp. adjustments, to eliminate the whole concept of the car to have (and yes, I know that it hasn't really worked in Prod either).

And, I know I'm probably going to regret selling my ITB Rabbit GTI when either it gets a weight break or gets moved to ITC! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI
SCCA 279608

[racerdrew43]

Hi Bill,
I'm guessing you've asked the question in an attempt to continue to serve your customers. With that in mind, and If I were asking the same question, I would be looking ahead to the newer cars such as the Golf III. The older cars have reached a high level of development. Having parts available for the older cars is a great thing, especially the rare stuff and there is certainly room for development in the IT to LP or P market, but for the long term, the newer cars will have to be embraced. Build a newer car that is competitive and you'll have opened a whole new happy can of worms (IMO).