Which chassis for IT ?

[zooracer]

I am going to build myself an ITB car, despite a lot of great advice I got from this forum. I know this sounds contradictory, but I really think this is best for me. I plan to use the car as a fun street and autocross car while I develop it for road racing. I have all the tools, garage, air tools, engine hoist, etc. and have been working on cars since I was a teen.
I am looking at used VW's and boy are they cheap ! I am thinking of a GTI rabbit for ITB or scirroco. I dont really care if it is for ITC or ITB, whatever chassis I decide on, I am just going on what I have read on here. Should I go with a 1500cc rabbit or scirroco for ITC, or a GTI for ITB ? Any preferences ? Should I go with an early chassis and then put a GTI motor in it for ITB ? I guess I prefer the 83 or 84 GTI since I think it would make a fun autocross car.
I guess I know to go with one that doesnt have a sunroof and obvious stuff like that.
I do plan to go to a couple of regionals to check out the cars and ask more questions before buying anything.
matt batson

[Bill Miller]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Should I go with an early chassis and then put a GTI motor in it for ITB ?</font>

Uh, you can't do that.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI
SCCA 279608

[zooracer]

Perhaps I made my post more complicated then was necessary.

If you were going to build an ITC or B car, what car would you start with ?

I had heard read some people swapping different motors and heads and such, say from hydr. lifters to solid lifters, and that if it was same type or model car you could swap back and forth. Apparently I was wrong. I will learn more as I get the rulebook at the next regional and speak to more racers.
Thanks

[itracer]

I'll start by saying I drive an ITB Scirocco. This is because I found a very reasonable priced used one.

My plan was, however, to build a Rabbit GTI or Golf for ITB. I have been very satisfied with the Scirocco performance, aero, etc. The only problem I foresee is there are fewer of the Sciroccos around for parts, etc.

The Rabbits have a plethora of spare parts at reasonable prices. JC Whitney even caries body parts for them.

The Golfs in ITB are another good choice, but the initial investment in the chassis may be higher than the Rabbits. They seem to have an aero advantage over the rabbits, but the Scirocco’s profile seems to keep up.

Definitely go to the races to check out what people have & what is available. I picked up a turnkey car, with a trailer for under $2,500. It was a pretty easy decision for me not to build, but you already said you were interested in building.

Since you live in FL, check some of the archive files, there was someone trying to “give” away Rabbit chassis(s) over a month ago.

Good luck!



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Jason
ITB 17 (NER SCCA)

[hornerdon]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Since you live in FL, check some of the archive files, there was someone trying to “give” away Rabbit chassis(s) over a month ago.</font>

That would be me. Here's what I have left.

(1) a Rabbit tub with a cage. Was converted to HP, so heater and stuff is gone, has a hole in the floor for a cell, has a sunroof, and is missing a door. It also has the oddball hingest that none of my other cars have, so a door might be hard to find. In my opinion, the only thing worthwhile is the cage, and it is not what I would build for myself. It's free, but it is an empty tub - hard to move.

(2) '83 GTI partially stripped - interior gone, some glass out. I started on it before I got my Scirocco. No sunroof, no rust. Some minor damage to one corner of the hood and cowl. Has a 1.8 engine with a blown head gasket. You can't have the close ratio tranny - that's the primary reason I bought it. I paid $100 and am keeping the tranny. Come and get it - free.

(3) An '82 Formula S, complete, untouched, with sunroof. Came originally with a 1.7; I was told it has a 1.8 in it, but frankly, I have never even opened the hood to look. No rust that I have seen, but I haven't looked very closely. I have a non-sunroof roof from a car I'm stripping. That car is rusty and will be scrapped, but the roof appears to be good. Come and get it - free.

There is one minor condition to the "free" stuff. I'm a white-haired old fart, and it's free as long as I don't expend any of my limited energy. The tranny is still in the GTI, I want it, but it would be a nice gesture to offer to help me pull it. The roof is still on the car to be scrapped - it would be a nice gesture to offer to cut it off (I can loan you a Sawzall). The cage is still in the empty tub - you have to take the whole thing to get the cage. There is also a cage in the car I'm stripping, but it isn't as nice, and has some illegalities. You can have it if you remove it. In fact, you could have that rusty tub complete with cage, but it would be useless for IT - the heater has been removed (and it wasn't even a production car - the former owner removed the heater and raced it in IT http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif ).

Here's a plan for a budget ITB car. Take the empty tub and remove the cage. Take the '82 and cut off the roof with sunroof. Install the cage. Weld on the non-sunroof roof. Take the GTI for spares. You might have to fool around with VIN tags.

Or, install the cage in the GTI (but this would be harder without cutting off the roof), and take the '82 for spares. You'll need to find and buy a CR tranny.

I've heard that when a VW blows the head gasket, there is a good chance that the head is warped, so the GTI engine I have may need a head.

I also have some extra doors, deck lids, etc., that will go with the cars.

Why free? (1) I have a space problem. (2) I have a Code Enforcement Department problem. (3) They were either free to me, or I have all the value out of them I want. (4) I like to help newbie young guys. (5) I'm moving to 5 acres in Okeechobee sometime in the next year (have to build the shop, first, then the house), and don't want to have to move this stuff -- limited energy, remember? http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

I do have a double axle open trailer I can loan to whoever gets the stuff, but I don't have time to load or deliver - at least, not for free.

Don't expect anything great - these cars have been sitting for almost a year, some have water in them, most are stuffed full of extra parts, nothing is usable without work, but there's some nuggets of gold buried in them if you have youth and energy.

Located in Port St. Lucie, Florida, about 2 hours or so South of Daytona and 2 hours North of Miami.

Last chance - I've already scrapped some cars, and the tubs with the cages in them are next to go to the scrap yard. I also have a convertible chassis, but it's being completely stripped for parts, it's missing a door, it's got some rust, and it's going to the scrap yard when I get done stripping it.

{Edit} I have had some inquiries from folks who have racing businesses and will make money from this stuff. In that case, I would expect some sort of offer - it isn't fair for me to give it away and you make money. It's free to someone who deserves it, who plans to use it to build a race car on a limited budget. If you take the stuff and don't do anything with it, I'll haunt you when I kick off.
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Don Horner
Port St. Lucie, FL
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by hornerdon (edited December 20, 2002).]

[zooracer]

Good point Jason about the rabbits being more common, thus parts availability is better than with the scirroco's.
A turnkey with trailer for under 2500 !!!!
If I could find something for under 4 g's with a trailer I would be ecstatic. I would certainly buy a built one if for a price this low.
Don, thanks for the offer with the free stuff. I am not a white haired senior citizen yet, but not quite youthful or energetic enough to take on a project so involved. I once did a body off restoration of a 71 VW squareback and half way into it I thought "what the heck did I get myself into !". I had been hoping that if I did build something that I would start with a somewhat complete street car, get it into excellent running condition, and then start modifying (stripping interior, buying coil overs, installing cage, etc.). I know the pro shops strip the car down to the tub and start from scratch, and this may be the only way to build a nationally competitive car, but it is too much for me.
I am certainly keeping my options open here. I may still buy a built car. It may even be model other than a VW (please no attacks of a personal nature http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif)
Bottom line is I get into it simply and somewhat cheaply, at first anyways.
I did notice that at the ARRC race there were no VW's in the top three of ITC or B.
Are they losing ground to the other models ?

[Knestis]

My perspective would tell me that Rabbits are now old enough that (a) parts are not going to continue to be easy to source for long, and (B) you can't build a clean, "just bolt it on" kind of car out of one anymore. Even a "good" one is going to be gungy enough and require enough work that you are likely to end up effectively doing the work that would be necessary with Don's Revell kits.

If you DO find one that is really clean, it might deserve to be left unmolested.

I would go one generation later - MkII Golf. The difference in donor car cost (what, $500 maybe?) will prove to be completely inconsequential once the project is done.

Kirk

[Vantage #51]

zooracer ,you might want to check the ARRC results closer, IT-B VW golf 2nd 3rd 4th and more.Enduro on sunday,Golf 1st thru 4th and more too.
VW's in 2/3 of the grid,and lots of info/support to help you get there.
Just my .02 worth.
Vantage #51

[zooracer]

Ok, golf (A2?) sounds good. I will be keeping my eyes out.
I was mistaken on the finish results at ARRC, I had a 2001 issue of GRM, so I guess it was last year that none were in the top three. But it sounds like they are still strong in class.
So far as condition of the vehicle, I would think that so long as there is no rust and it has not been in an accident it would be a good candidate. I wouldnt care too much about the interior, paint job, or suspension parts, since they will all be replaced or removed.
I really appreciate all the advice.

[Joe Craven]

I have a friend who was trying to sell his turnkey ITB Pinto with 6 new Toyo RA1s and trailer for under $1500. I had friends who were in the race car, but just weren't interested in racing a Pinto.

GTIs, lots of them ready to race on the west coast for under $3K.

Hmmm, I just finished building a GTI which just ran 2:03s at Sears Point on Toyos last month and I would have gone faster once I got out of traffic(2:02s) but the air dam worked too well and I overheated the brakes. Track record is 2:01 currently in SCCA. I'd probably sell it for $3K and it is gorgeous with new paint and graphics.

[Knestis]

I am a HUGE buy-don't-build advocate but, since you seem to have your heart set on this approach, take a look at a thing I penned out for another forum, at...

http://www.it2.evaluand.com/recipe.php

It talks specifically about an ITA CRX but the same logic applies to a Golf, if you are thinking of doing a gradual kind of build up.

It is probably pretty presumptious to think that I have the answers but please believe me when I say that I have personally dorked up the race car process pretty much every way possible. I just hate to see others suffer.

Kirk

[zooracer]

Believe me, my mind is definitely not made up on anything here. I am really just trying to explore the possibilities and take in as much as advice as possible. The whole point is that I learn from your experiences. Thank you.
I really appreciate the offers for cars. But before I can buy I at least need to sell my motocross bikes http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/rolleyes.gif
I am thinking more than a month, but no more than 3 before I am ready to buy.
Oh, and if you see a big guy with crew cut taking notes and looking over your shoulder at the races, dont worry it's just me http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

[DoorDoctor]

I have a 84 GTI and a 86 Golf and the rabbit has a fuel starve proplem that the golf does not.Just my .02

[uscrew96]

Buy someone elses and get the seat time!

[Tim]

How many 81-84 1.7 Rabbits are run as GTIs? Is the 1.7 competitive? if so with what engine mods? To be a GTI do you need to have the K-Jetronic or can you keep the CIS, which is best?

[itbracer6]

I am currently racing an 84 GTI. This is my 4th body in 7 years. I can tell you for a fact that the Gti parts are getting harder to find. Aftermarket fenders from J C Whittney are no longer available. I would have built a Golf had I not a garage full of Rabbit parts. It's great that you are looking to build a race car but kep in mind that you should not race what you cannot afford to loose! I've rolled 2, one on it's second weekend.

It's interesting that you are pondering the same question that is usually a deep discussion while towing to the track. Whats the next affordable/competitive ITB car? What will take the abuse of the track like a Rabbit or Honda?

[racer_tim]

Tim, you can't run the 1.7 as a GTI in ITB. You have to run it as a Rabbit, and follow the ITCS regarding prep work. Some have said that you can put a 1.8 with CIS and run it in ITB as a GTI, but then you might run into problems with the VIN number.

1.7 Rabbit, head 34x31, 13" rims, CIS, 2,050 lbs
1.8 GTI, head 40x33, 14" rims, K-Jet, 2,180 lbs

Oh, the 1.7 hast to use the solid front rotors.



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 ITB GTI, GP for 2002
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[Tim]

Tim, thanks. I guess my question really was - is the 1.7 at all competitive? Does the 130lbs make up for the difference in engine specs? Prolly not. I have an 84 shell and was just wondering what its worth if I move from C to B, I hear you about the vin numbers and I have read the ITCS, although I have heard that somewhere, someone might replace a GTI shell for a non-GTI shell if one were not available or build a non GTI into one for the sake of being competitive. Now I don't know anyone in SCCA that would do such a thing but I guess it could happen. Anyone ever hear of such a thing??

[Knestis]

I know for a fact that it has happened but, even though it is stupid that it is illegal, it is still illegal.

Kirk

[racer_tim]

The 1.7 was not the best engine. It's the same bore as a 1.6 but with a longer stroke. With the longer stroke, you can't rev it as high. that's why most have either stayed with the 1.6 or the 1.7. You don't hear of many running the 1.7.


Tim



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 ITB GTI, GP for 2002
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[racer_tim]

Oops, that was either the 1.6 or the 1.8.

Tim

[Corradoracer]

I have a friend that as a lot of experience in this V.W. discussion. His name is Frank Cervetto, and races a V.W. in Cal Club division of SCCA. He goes faster in a VW Rabbit, than any one I know. He is the tit's V.W. guy, whether it's a rabbit or scirocco, ITB or ITC, he know's how to make them handle and go!!!! 661-255-5281. Call him. you won't be sorry

[Jiveslug]

Ok, to throw a little wrench in this topic, what about the ITA versions of the Scirocco and GTi??? Anyone have an opinion as to which is better and why????

Oh, hey Joe Craven, does your friend still have that Pinto for sale???

Jive

[racer_tim]

The 16v Scirocco body is more aerodynamic, but it weighs 100 lbs more than the 16v GTI. Everything else is the same.

I think that it's a matter of what's out there, since I've seen both in ITA.



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 ITB GTI, GP for 2002
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[Eric Parham]

Scirocco 16V also gets bigger front brakes (10.1" vs. 9.4"), which is convenient for hauling down the mandated ballast... Scirocco 16V is still an A1, Golf 16V is an A2.

[Jiveslug]

Is there a significant difference between the performance capabilities of the A1 chassis vs. the A2?? There is a GTi that runs ITA down here in So Pac (I think its Raffi's) that is pretty quick. Im wondering if the Scirocco would be able to keep up. If the A2 chassis is the second generation, I also wondering if its a significant improvement over the A1.

Jive

[racer_tim]

Jive, there is lots of opinions as to which car is better. The A1 1.6 Scirocco ITC car is probably the best of the bunch, but A1 Scirocco chassis's are getting pretty hard to come by. The A2's have rear disk brakes, and better suspension geometry, but they are heavier.

I already had an A1 Rabbit the choice was pretty easy, but I started racing an A1 Scirocco in 93-94 and didn't convert the Rabbit until 1992, after it had almost 350k miles on it. Not all on the same motor/trans, but still has the original paint, and fenders.

Hope that this helps.




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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 LP GP Wabbit
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[16v]

Buy this! (http://www.briansgarage.com/fs.htm)

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the16v.com (http://the16v.com)
briansgarage.com (http://www.briansgarage.com)
motorsportvortex (http://www.motorsportvortex.com)

[Rex B]

Now there's a new choice: 16V GLI A2

I called Topeka about getting my '87 GLI 16V classified in IYA. I was told the Comp Board had discussed and OK'd it Jan 9.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Rex B:
Now there's a new choice: 16V GLI A2

I called Topeka about getting my '87 GLI 16V classified in IYA. I was told the Comp Board had discussed and OK'd it Jan 9.

Yeah, but they botched the specs. See my comments in the 944S thread.



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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI
SCCA 279608

[mogren]

It cost the same to build a ITC car as a ITB car or almost ITA VW. The for sale price is not near as much for ITC as ITB. Go as fast as you can forthe cash . it is a ton cheaper to buy than build. The A2 Golf/Jetta is the way to go , there are always plenty to race with and they are solid chassis. i have a S1 Scorocco that flies for cheap, check the adds.
The 16v will cost a ton to go midpack .03MM

[jcmgt2]

I have a 84 Scirocco, ITB, 2002 tech that I could let go cheap! [email protected] if interested! It has (1)set 14 and (3) sets 13 inch wheels.