View Full Version : Fools who can't/won't read

10-01-2001, 03:32 PM
Why do you "kind" folks keep answering questions whose answers are just jumping out at you in the GCR (rule book for those of you who haven't heard)? Do you really want people who are either too lazy or too dumb to do even the most basic of research out there beside you (while they're being lapped) on the track? Lets not be "enablers" here.

10-01-2001, 03:55 PM
I beleive that we should always promote our sport and SCCA racing, generally. Promotion, above all else, requires that we be polite.
Most reply posts to novice-like or even silly inquiries I have seen do recommend that the person with the question get a copy of the GCR.

Remember, let's always try to be good ambassadors.


Dead Skunk
10-01-2001, 04:11 PM
I wish there had been a site like this when I started racing. I know I asked a lot of questions of people at the track that ,in hindsight , were pretty simple to answer and were in the GCR that I had there with me.Now, a few years later, I answer questions of the same nature from people who will become front runners and close competitors, just as I did. There is absolutely nothing wrong with mentoring newcomers. At some point ,when the new guy is close enough to my back bumper ,we start sharing info. This isn't F1, close competition makes it fun, and I believe it's in all our best interests to help whenever we can.

Warren Martin
Dead Skunk Racing

Bill Miller
10-01-2001, 05:23 PM

What difference does it make to you if the people here provide readily available information to others?

MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI

10-01-2001, 09:31 PM
ITPERSON, sharing info on this site would be just like sharing info, parts & a helping hand to someone at the track who required assistance to make his/her practice, qualifying or race session. Most people don't have $200 race fee & other costs to throw away for not making a session. At least I don't.

It's fun to most of us & part of the whole picture.

Meeting people is fun & thats why I use my full name, divison & class in the name block.

Have Fun

David Dewhurst
CenDiv Milwaukee Region Spec-7 #14

Ryan Williams
10-02-2001, 12:38 AM
In general, most questions are never considered to be "dumb", and I believe that many areas of the GCR, ITCS, etc. are "gray" in definition. The purpose of this forum is to help each other and to exchange ideas, resulting in the promotion of the sport.

Although I now run a Wabbit in SCCA production, I am still a big supporter and fan of IT racing. Don't knock it unless you are driving in F1. Regards, Ryan Williams.

Bill Miller
10-02-2001, 08:39 AM
Seems that this was ITPERSON's one and only post to this board. Interesting how he/she jumps all over people for helping others when he/she hasn't contributed anything at all to this board. Seems that his/her sole intention was to stir shit. I think it's also very telling that he/she was only big enough to denigrate people from behind an anonymous persona.

So ITPERSON, in a word, you have no credibility here.

MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI

10-03-2001, 09:43 AM
The point of my post is while it’s great and very satisfying to help people, they should at least put in a BASIC effort to help themselves.

Sometimes we forget that motor racing is a demanding and dangerous sport. The people involved should be both competent and willing to work hard at their craft, not run to others for the obvious. There will be a time when they won’t have that luxury (crutch) available - “Gee, my car’s spinning, what should I do now?” …“Well, please don’t hit me!”

Yes, this is my first post, but I’ve been reading this stuff for a long time and just couldn’t hold back any longer. And if Bill wants to look at a blunt, from the gut opinion that he doesn’t agree with as just stirring up shit, well that’s his prerogative.

I wonder how many people out there agree but won’t respond for fear that you people will bite their heads off!

10-03-2001, 10:34 AM
Name: ALan Lourenco
Region: NER
Class: ITB
Age: 22
Years involved in SCCA: Second year as crew; first full year as racer

I have learned more from people than I ever could from the GCR. If you have not noticed ITPERSON, even those who are extremely knowledgable of the GCR, they are still disputing/discussing points that lay within. If it were not for the "nice" people answering my "stupid" and "obvious" questions, I do not think I would involved in the sport. I agree with Bill and the rest when we say that we would love to grow the sport and share knowledge with others.

ITPERSON, please look back to when you first started racing, and see if you had any "obvious" questions or did you know all. I agree that some of the questions asked are a bit redundant, but not everyone may be as "smart/intuitive" as the next.

"Sometimes we forget that motor racing is a demanding and dangerous sport. The people involved should be both competent and willing to work hard at their craft, not run to others for the obvious. There will be a time when they won’t have that luxury (crutch) available - “Gee, my car’s spinning, what should I do now?” …“Well, please don’t hit me!” " quote from ITPERSON

This has got to be the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. The poeple whom I associate with in the SCCA DO NOT forget that this is a dangerous sport and that it is physically, emotionally, socially, and financially demanding. These are the points we try to drive home to the newcomers, that this is not an easy road to take, but it is well worth it to many.

Here is a way to look at your opinion ITPERSON,
imagine you are eight years old, see a new game being played at recess, and you walk up to one of the people playing and ask am I allowed to play and how to play? That person turns and tell you to go scratch.

I do not think we will promote the SCCA with that attitude.
Special thanks to all those who have answered my "obvious" questions.


10-03-2001, 11:24 AM
From my little corner of the world, I can see both sides of this issue, to a degree...

I have benefitted from information that it.com folks have been willing to share (like what is the listed weight of that Oldsmobile!). I will be returning to this game in a year or two and want to make informed decisions but am not thrilled about buying a GCR that won't be current when I really need it. Graduate school makes you stingy, I guess.

Having said that, providing answers CAN lead to the spreading of misinformation or, in the case of this organization, interpretations that might not be universally held. We might be doing a disservice to people who are starting out, if we don't encourage them to read and understand the rules--as wobbly as they might be--so they can go into any issue from a defensible position. "Some guy in improvedtouring.com told me it was legal" won't carry much weight if the tech-shed doody gets deep!

The best answer is a balance and I think we have seen it here, in both the number of answers to questions that COULD be found in a quick review of the GCR and the number of times that folks have been cautioned to get the rule book before they start cutting!

Of course, the best answer (short of a really well-written, compehensive set of rules) would be some kind of "official" forum that would allow IT entrants to get interpretations (beyond answers from the rulebook) in writing from those empowered to make them. It would also help if the GCR didn't represent a revenue stream for the corporation--there would be no disincetive to putting it on line were that the case.

Best to all,


10-03-2001, 11:51 AM
Alan, you’re still not getting it. Sure, everyone is new at one time. And everyone has questions that may seem silly to some. But the point you’re missing is that people should first put in a little effort to find out for themselves and then ask if needed.

It’s not about turning new people away. It’s not about not helping people. I help people. It’s about people taking a little responsibility.

And if anyone thinks they don’t need a GCR, I’d like to see the reaction if a driver went up to a Scrutineer or a Steward and volunteered that he didn’t have one. No (additional) offense, but if one doesn’t want to invest in a GCR (or doesn’t have ready access to one), maybe he should settle for Speedvision. It’s just one of the many costs of racing.

10-03-2001, 12:20 PM
I apologize to all those who see this post turning into a silly arguement, but work is a little slow, so I have the time.

ITPERSON, you say the person must put in a little effort; they know of the SCCA, they found this website, they know they have a car that can be raced (possibly), I think that counts as effort. Just to clear the air and to agree with Knestis, there is a point where people should take the advice, like "get a GCR and read". I can agree with you on that, but a lot has to do with that first impression.

I do agree with you 110% that all RACING participants should own an updated version of the GCR. I have had encounters with ill-informed racers who could not back their opinion with facts.

ITPERSON, Just out of curiousity (no evil intentions meant by this question); how long have you been involved in racing, at what level, and what aspect (rally, road race, autx etc)


Bill Miller
10-03-2001, 01:03 PM

Well, you registered for this BB on 10/1/01, yet you say you've been reading this stuff for a long time. I'm curious as to why you chose not to register right away, so you could contribute to the discussions.

You certainly have done nothing to help any of the people here out (by virtue of the fact that you haven't posted anything until this topic).

To many, this site may be one of the first places that they come to get information about possibly getting into racing. And, while this forum is called Improved Touring, it is not exclusively an SCCA forum. As a matter of fact NASA advertises on this site.

And who are you to decide what is an 'acceptable' level of research for someone to do before they can ask questions? I fail to see why it should matter to you at all if others are willing to answer people's questions. You certainly haven't had to put yourself out to do it.

And, as Kirk has pointed out, and you would know if you did some research, most of the responses to 'newbie' questions have the standard "you really should get a copy of the rule book" clause in them. Sometimes you don't realize how little you know or how wrong you are until you ask.

There's an old saying that goes "The only dumb question is the one you don't ask." I also don't think it's been the case that anyone has been 'lazy' and not availed themselves of other sources of information. I see people here who are looking for good information so they can build their cars right. One of the beauties of the internet is that we have access to much more immediate means of communication and access to tons of information at our fingertips. I think that's a great thing.

And, while your opinion may have been blunt and from the gut, it was also demeaning and deriding. In case you haven't figured it out, insulting people when you introduce yourself to them tends not to leave a very good impression.

Since you posted this in the VW forum, I can only assume that you have (race?) a VW. I've been involved w/ VW's for over 20 years, going back to air cooled beetles. In all those years, I've VW folks to be friendly, open, and generally good-natured people, always willing to lend a hand or answer a question. You seem to be about as far from that as I can imagine.

I would be curious as well as how long, and to what capacity you're involved in racing.

MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI

10-03-2001, 01:40 PM
I love stupid questions, I say keep them coming.

I helped some nice folks who wanted to initiate a mentoring program for MCSCC a couple of years back, as a mentor myself I found it to be very rewarding for those involved.

Just because the GCR says X, and you can understand how to do X and researching X and all that goes with X is easy, sometimes in the pondering of X, a question to others about the "reality" of X is in itself revealing and can be part of the "growth" and "joining in" that comes with new membership.

Some people come to race, some come to join a club and join in...

I am a Joiner inerer... I also race and used to do well before I stopped.


Bill Miller
10-03-2001, 02:39 PM
And it would be much easier if the rules in the GCR were clear and direct. Problem is, they're not. They are, at times, grossly vagues, not to mention internally inconsistant, and leave room for interpretation that is so large, you could drive a truck through.

MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI

10-03-2001, 06:40 PM

That is so right... I think the rules were written by Lawyers who were "funnin" with us. Have you read the Prod Rules???? (ohmigodIthinki'mconfused)

Personally I find the new rules for SpecMiata and Rx7 to be cut and dried...

As rules become more and more to the point, I think the club will benefit.

10-03-2001, 10:06 PM
Since the theme of this strand is "personal responsibility", it might be appropriate to add my opinion that the IT community (if there is such a thing) is partially to blame for the wobbly, interpretation-laden nature of the IT rules. If we REALLY adhered to the "if it doesn't say you CAN, then you CAN'T" philosphy that was explicit when the category came into being, it would not be necessary to have the current hodge-podge of interpretations and/or actual written rules that sometimes even cross the line to define what "can't be done".

Warning--this opinion may cause side effects including blindness, nausea or vomiting.

Bill Miller
10-04-2001, 07:54 AM
Nice thought Kirk, but totally unrealistic. In racing, there will always be people who will do whatever it takes to win. And if that means cheating, then they'll cheat. I'm surprised that it happens at a level where we're all supposed to be doing this for 'fun', but it does.

As I said in another post, the loose, gray rules are only a temptation to push them. And because of this loosness, there are also there are solid arguements that support various interpretations.

BTW, this problem is not unique to the IT community. Some of you guys should (and I know some of you do) see the discussions on the Production site.

MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI

Dave Ebersole
10-04-2001, 11:10 AM
Bill, I hate to ask a stupid question, (sorry, ITPERSON) but do you have the link handy for the Production site?
Dave Ebersole
"Asker of stupid questions"

10-04-2001, 12:45 PM
Dave Ebersole, no question is stupid if you do not know the answer. Anyway go to "h-production-scca.com/".

Have Fun

David Dewhurst
CenDiv Milwaukee Region Spec-7 #14

[This message has been edited by ddewhurst (edited October 04, 2001).]

Dan C
10-04-2001, 05:43 PM
I'd just like to say a big thank you to all those who have put up with, and answered, my newbie questions.

He's right, I don't own a GCR, nor am I a SCCA member, nor do I even have a car to race. But I'm hoping to make the move from 'speedvision' to club racer, and in no small part, the friendly and helpful folks on this board have motivated me to do so.

I think I might see your point, ITPERSON, if persons were posting questions asking for GCR rules recited line by line, or were actually trying to get by without buying the book. But clearly, most are trying to get a better understanding of what is involved, how others interpret the rules, and what works best. Still sounds like a good idea to me http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

I have no doubt then when I join, and build or buy my first car, one of the prerequesite purchases will be the GCR. And I have no doubt that after the purchase, I will continue to post questions in the hopes of bettering the sport for myself and anyone else who might gain insight from the postings.

No number
No car
No experience
Grateful poster/reader on it.com

10-04-2001, 10:11 PM

Let me encourage you to get started now rather than later. Eat saltines and ketchup for lunch for a couple of weeks (old college trick when we were broke, packages of saltines and ketchup are free), and put the savings to your SCCA membership - around $65 most places. Get the app at scca.org. While you're at it, find out what region you're in, and use the link onthe national site to get to their website.

Next, find out where they race, and when the next race is. Show up at the track around 7:30 AM on Saturday, and tell the first person you see that you want to learn to be a corner marshal. Wham! Before you know it, you'll be in the middle of the greatest group of people you've met. You'll learn more in that first weekend than you ever thought possible. It will all come together and start making sense.

If you have any money left, wander to the region's merchandise booth, and see if they have a GCR for sale. Buy it now. If you don't want to spend the money, ask one of the racers for their last-year's book. Learn to read it now, 'cause you won't believe how goofy it can get in a few places. Like most of the guys on this site, mine's falling apart and worn from 8 months of constant use.

Good luck, and start building experience now. The car can come later.


10-05-2001, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by Bill Miller:
And it would be much easier if the rules in the GCR were clear and direct. Problem is, they're not.

Not only that, but there are a lot of $20 words that a culchie (hehe...any paddymen out there?) like me doesn't understand. I wish they'd use words with no more than 3 syllables.

dead...for now