Opinions on First Car

[tom_sprecher]

First, I am new to this forum and the IT class. For more than 3 years I have been the crew chief for a CFC team that somehow mananged to become the 2004 SARRC champions. We want to add another car so I can drive as well.

I am leaning towards ITS or ITA and would like some opinions on what would be a good car to start with. A rear wheel drive car is preferred but I am open to all ideas at this point. Budget is about $15K for car, enclosed trailer, safety gear and any car specific required items. Timing wise, the goal is drivers school at Roebling next Feb.

Any and all suggestions would be much appreciated.


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Tom Sprecher

[Eagle7]

ITS RWD:
* BMW 325i - Top dog when well developed, but expensive. Hit with a restrictor plate this year.
* RX-7 - Probably 2nd in potential in the class. Easy to find cars and go-fast parts. Lots of information available. My favorite. Should fit your criteria.
* Z (240, 60, 80) - Good ones can run with the RX-7s. Harder to find parts.
* Porsche (I think the 944S is supposed be be competitive, but it might be hard to develop it.
* Others are less common and not commonly seen up front.

ITA RWD (I'm not as well versed in this class, especially since the realignment last winter):
* Miata?
* Fiero?
The CRX usually runs up front. RX-7 is not competitive.

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Marty Doane
ITS RX-7 #13
CenDiv WMR

[ITAMiata]

In ITA the Miata is doing well and is rwd. To see two ITA Miatas from the recent VIR race go to: http://homepage.mac.com/billh96007/PhotoAlbum140.html

Brett in the #74 car took pole for both races and finished 1st in the Sunday race (he broke something in the Sat. race). I was in the #38 car and took 2nd Sat. and 3rd Sunday.

Bill

[nicksofast12]

Send me an email. I have an RX-7 for sale and race in the SARRC series. I am sure you have seen my car before. We can arrange use of the car for the drivers school if you would like to get some seat time prior to making your decision.

I am also offering trackside support for the first few races to the purchaser of my car.

Nick Gurucharri

[nicksofast12]

My direct email is [email protected] or I may be reached at 786.302.2322. Located in Florida

[Knestis]

Nissan 240sx in ITA - rear drive, pretty reliable, should be reasonably competitive, lots of parts...

K

[Bill Miller]

What Kirk said. Just make sure you look at the S13 (12v). The S14 (16v DOHC) runs in ITS, and right now, doesn't run w/ the other ITS cars mentioned.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Ron Earp]

While not as learned as the other folks on this board, I just went through what you did for getting a first car. Don't do what I did and build an oddball car unless that is your nature.

Were I doing it all over again I think I would select the S14 240sx for S, or the 2nd Gen RX7 for S. With one car you'd get to have the fun of developing and maybe winning, with the other car you'd know it has the potential to run with the top dogs if you get it done right and you are able.



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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS

[cnewman]

Jeez, Tom, aren't you busy enough? http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

The one thing you didn't tell these guys was how tall you are. Miata's and Fiero's are going to be a little tight for you.

For me, the choices would be pretty simple.

For ITS: A second gen RX-7. It's plenty fast, and can be had fairly reasonably. The motor will run forever, unlike those FC motors you're used to. A lack of torque in the rotor-motor makes 'em feel a little slow off, but they're not. The CRB seems like they want to reel in the BMW, so this might be the car for the class.

For ITA: The 240SX. I don't know alot about these, all that matters is that they're RWD, and not a Honda!

The other thing I'd do, is forget about the enclosed trailer, and spend the extra money getting absolutely the best car I could afford. I'm sure Mark will let you you change into your suit in his shiny new trailer!

Chuck Newman
#57 BSI SM

[tom_sprecher]

Chuck,

We saw Court last race weekend at Savannah but you were no where to be found. What about the Kershaw ECR? You guys need to do another of those Low Country Boils like at the ARRC last year. Or we'll do the brats, burgers and beer.

Anyway, I want to drive now and Mark's car is pretty well settled out. He set a track lap record last weekend at Roebling for CFC with a 1:12.999. So, I figure it's time to get a car. At first I thought about SPO (3-4 yr old ARCA or Busch rollers start at $12-15k and there are dozens to choose from) but I need to walk before I run and SPO or GT1 would require me to sell my house for something with a larger and flat lot. My driveway is quite a hill to say the least and there is now way to get a GT1 or SPO up it.

Now an IT car could easily do it. I park the Harley in the basement and my wife still keeps her SUV in the other side. She's happy, I'm racing and we don't have to move. The trailer is parked at a RV storage site or on my new best friend's property so if anybody reading this needs a best friend call me so I can save $50 a month.

The BMW's seem to really dominate, but are too rich for my blood. Plus, I thought I read they are making them run restrictor plates soon. The 2nd gen RX-7 seems the way to go for ITS, but I have not seen to many for sale. 1st gen there seems to be a few available so I might run IT-7 on the cheap.

The 240sx looks interesting but seem few and far between on the track and might take a lot of development as well. Also, I heard the drifter crowd snaps up most cars that come up for sale.

So, I'll keep looking, asking questions and with a little help I hope to figure out IT? like I did CFC.



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Tom Sprecher

[Ron Earp]

Another one I forgot to mention, and is rear wheel drive, and is stil damn competitive - a 240z. Obtainable, lots of parts, and I consider them very reliable and not that expensive to run.

For me the major things are an "S" car and rear wheel drive, this might be a good choice. Our 260z is moving toward being competitive, against the 240zs, so I feel the 240s might be a nice choice.

I think BMWs should be running restrictors right now if I remember the rules correctly.

Ron

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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS

[Tristan Smith]

Tom, the S13 240sx's are great cars, but as mentioned above they are the car of choice for the drift and import crowd. Because of that, they are getting harder to find cheap and a lot of them are trashed if you do find one. But I highly recommend them. (Warning, do not use my results as a benchmark for the car's capabilities. I suck as a driver. Your results may vary.)
HA!



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Tristan Smith
Buffalo's Southwest Cafe
ITA Nissan 240sx #56

[DavidM]

Damn Tristan. If you suck, then I must really suck. Oh, wait...I do really suck, but I'm getting better. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif Tristan's suckiness netted him 5th in the SARRC in ITA last year. Wish I could suck like that.

Didn't somebody have an ITA 240SX for sale? Forget if I saw it here or in Sports Car or somewhere else, but pretty sure I saw one.

David

[tom_sprecher]

After looking at last years points it looks like Tristan sucks as much as he brags about being a great driver. 5th out of 22 possible is nothing to sneeze about. We had 4 possible, but formula classes are like that.

If the event that an IT7 car comes up where can I find the rules for that class?

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Tom Sprecher

[Tristan Smith]

Well, thanks for the good words. Actually Geoff Churchill is selling a partially built car. That's in the Atlanta Region SCCA Classifieds. You may want to at least give the ad a look-over. And David, you'll probably be passing me at the July race! See you then.

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Tristan Smith
Buffalo's Southwest Cafe
ITA Nissan 240sx #56

[This message has been edited by Tristan Smith (edited May 17, 2005).]

[Greg Amy]

Tom, if you can bear to drive a FWD car in ITA, I have a friend that's selling his primo-prep Saturn. It's this car:

http://www.teamscr.com/forsale.htm

...but he bought it from Walker and it's now in New England. Jeff drove it in two schools last year but he just has too many personal priorities to race it. This car is really prepped well, and I think it has a lot of potential in ITA. Hell, I wish I had the money to buy it myself!

It comes with everything listed on that web site plus 10 new tires, new hood, and a second exhaust that he fabricated for New Hampshire (the original one was too loud). I did the annual insepction on it a month ago, it's in great condition and the only thing I had to write him up for was lack of appropriate tow hooks. He's asking $10K, and it's worth every penny. jeff02740 at hotmail dot com

[slickS14]

Tom, I just posted my ITS 240sx (s14) for sale and it happens to be in your price range. The car is fully sorted and developed. I was on pole last SARRC event on Sat morning but DNF because of slight altercation with BMW that put me in sand trap. Sunday was third place. Don't be fooled, these cars are competitive but take alot of work to get them there, but I already did it. The car is race ready and has spares available as well. My contact info is Chris Newberry<[email protected]> or 404-314-5042. The car is located in Atlanta but I can meet you within a couple hundred miles for delivery. Enclosed trailer also available.

[nicksofast12]

Tom, I too have a racecar for sale. It is a 91' ITS Mazda RX-7. I am asking slightly above your price range but am sure we could work something out. The car is a consistant front runner and is extremely well sorted. I have been actively racing the car in the southeast since 00'. There is an extensive spares package included with the car. I am currently racing in Grand-am Cup with the new Mazda RX-8 and do not have the time to race the "S" car. [email protected] or 786.302.2322. I will deliver within reasonable distance...and provide trackside support at first several races anywhere in Southeast.

[zooracer]

Well, I wouldnt rule out miata's for ITA.
Even if your tall you may still fit. I'm 5'11" and fit easily in my street miata.
They are cheap, built like tanks, and are truly the most communicative street chassis I have ever driven, and I've owned everything from a 2004 cooper S to an 88 CRX SI. I used to think my first gen MR2 I had 10 years ago was the best chassis...
Also, I really think they can win at the ARRC. Like I've said, I've had a CRX SI, and I think the miata is faster and outhandles the honda.
Just look at some race results and see how many SM's beat ITA. These miatas are not prepared to the level of an ITA miata either.

[JeffYoung]

Zoo, see the post on the Mazda board about ITA Miatas. Twisty tracks, they win. HP tracks, the Integras, 240s and CRXs beat them more because of aero than anything else.

Still, a great first car, I agree. Totally trashable, predictable, great handler. Good car to learn to race in, although you will be spoiled by it.

[Knestis]

Here's an option...

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1251980

Not mine - just passing the word.

K

[zooracer]

I'm not argueing here, please dont take me wrong on this,
but,
I would think aero wise the miata would actually be better then the three cars you mentioned, right?
Also, Hp wise, I think a stock miata is just as fast as a stock 240 or crx, isnt it?
Now I know this may not add up to how much hp they can make in full IT trim, but there shouldnt really be that much difference in Hp after all the mods, should there?
How can the SM's do so well lap time wise with so much more restriction on their allowable modifications?
Am I taking my crazy pills again?
(loved that line from zoolander...)

[Ron Earp]

Check the Cd on the Miata - not good. I've driven one quite a bit and it tends to sort of hit a brick wall at some point above 100mph. I don't think hp wise a Miata stock is as fast as the others. A 1.6 has something like 125hp, while the 240sx has around 150. All I know is on the back straight at VIR you could settle in and read a book while it works up to speed. Not so in our 260z or any of those other S/A cars that have power.

SM's do well because they handle so well and can just about damn near outbrake everything in ITA and ITS. Drive one and you learn that it is a car that likes twisties and momentum. Screw up, lift at the wrong time, lose your momentum, and the pack passes you buy. At the higher speeds it just doesn't have so much pull and a lift, bad corner entry or exit can really slow your laptimes down.

On the VIR grand course, the 4.X mile length, the SM ran some 3:10s best if I recall. That put them solidly is A and S times, with the best S cars running like 3:05-3:02 or so. But, the grand course had basically a mile of track that definitely favored Miatas. When the track is run in its normal configuration there is a larger difference in laptimes.



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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS

[zooracer]

Okay, I guess so...
I wonder if anyone has CD spec's on these cars? I mean, with the size and shape of the miata (so low to the ground...) I just have a hard time believing this.
I could be wrong, no question about that.
So far as top speed goes, CD and torque are probably the most important. I know the 1.6 makes about 115hp and 100lbs torque, so maybe this is where the 240sx and crx's leave it behind.
I do remember the crx being pretty torquey...

[Ron Earp]

0.38 with the top up on a M spec, which has some soiler stuff the normal ones do not. Lowest I saw was 0.36, not specified if it was late model or not.

Modern cars:

350z 0.30
C6 Vette 0.28, 0.29
RX7 3rd Gen 0.34
Porsche 944 0.34
New Camry 0.28-0.29

My JH is a nasty 0.40. Typical fellow on a motorcycle runs around a 0.43 or so.

So completely smooth they are not, although they look like a smooth bar of soap.

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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS

[zooracer]

ouch, .38 is pretty bad.
My swift is .29, which isnt too bad. Just has a small motor and little torque...

Well, then I would consider SM. It's a drivers class, where car's are somewhat equal, bullet proof, and lot's of competition.

It's a class I'm seriously considering myself. Just be a couple of years, as I've got too much money tied up in my swift right now.

[tom_sprecher]

I appreciate all the responses but I don't have the cash to buy a car today, most likely after the SIC. Besides, the $15k is the entire start-up budget, not just the car. I'm a very patient man and when the right one comes along I'll know it. Hell, it took me two years to buy the Harley and had to drive down to Ft. Lauderdale to get it, but I saved $4k.

What about IT7?

[7racing]

Originally posted by tom_sprecher:
I appreciate all the responses but I don't have the cash to buy a car today, most likely after the SIC.

The 240sx looks interesting but seem few and far between on the track and might take a lot of development as well. Also, I heard the drifter crowd snaps up most cars that come up for sale.

I have a 89 240sx coupe (ITA) that we could talk about. It's built, developed, fast. Very competitive in the Northeast against the current crop of CRX and Integras. Give me a shout - 7racing(at)naisp(dot)net.

BTW, I can wait till your ready to buy.... http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

Jeremy

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I have a 89 240sx coupe (ITA) that we could talk about.</font>

Giving up already?? Or, you just setting up to buy a B13... http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

[lateapex911]

IT7 cars are just 1st gen cars prepped to ITA rules.

Good news, fun to drive, good engine longevity when properly built, cheap (for a racecar) to buy or maintain.

Bad news? IT7 does not run in all parts of the country, so you can't go everywhere. But you can always run in ITA if you don't mind getting blown off the straights...

(Jeremy...shoot me a message)

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited May 25, 2005).]

[tom_sprecher]

Thanks, Jake. It looks like IT7 is popular is the SEDiv which covers a lot of ground and I don't plan on going anywhere else.

I think for a beginners car, if like you said, IT7 cars are fun to drive and relatively cheap to buy and maintain, what's not to like? Plus, if I'am slow I can always blame it on the car http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/biggrin.gif



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Tom Sprecher
Team SuperTech

[7racing]

Originally posted by GregAmy:
Giving up already?? Or, you just setting up to buy a B13... http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif



I've got crazier plans than that. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

Jeremy

[jamsilvia]

Originally posted by rlearp:
I don't think hp wise a Miata stock is as fast as the others. A 1.6 has something like 125hp, while the 240sx has around 150. All I know is on the back straight at VIR you could settle in and read a book while it works up to speed.

I'd say that generally, the lower weight of the Miata makes up for a good bit of the HP deficit - tho not all of it. I run a ITS 240SX (stock 165k motor), and the VIR back straight seems to take forever as well.

joe

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by tom_sprecher:
Any and all suggestions would be much appreciated.


Hmmmmm.....get a fast one.

Seriously, come see us at CMP this weekend.

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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS

[tom_sprecher]

Ron, I'll see you there with beers in hand. You were the one with the liquor cabinet, right?

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Tom Sprecher
Team SuperTech

[This message has been edited by tom_sprecher (edited May 26, 2005).]

[Ron Earp]

Don't get too excited, it only holds four bottles but since it was installed by the previous owner of the trailer we felt obliged to put some in and get it ready. But it is there for the taking, have a drink! Mark Whight is quite excited since that means he gets G&Ts at the track!

R

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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited May 26, 2005).]

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by tom_sprecher:
Thanks, Jake. It looks like IT7 is popular is the SEDiv which covers a lot of ground and I don't plan on going anywhere else.

I think for a beginners car, if like you said, IT7 cars are fun to drive and relatively cheap to buy and maintain, what's not to like? Plus, if I'am slow I can always blame it on the car http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/biggrin.gif



Tom shoot me an email and I can fill you in on the ups and downs of RX-7 ownership and racing.



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

New-B ?

[This message has been edited by Ramblin' Wreck (edited June 23, 2005).]

I have noticed IT-A Fieros finishing well, but which would be more competitive IT-A or IT-B Fiero?

Thanx

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Eric W. Chance
2000 Mazda Miata C-Stock
1964 1/2 Mustang (For Sale)

[Gary L]

Fieros - I took a hard look at this car before I bought an ITB Volvo. Keep in mind there are 4 Fiero line entries, 2 for the V6 in ITA and 2 for the 4 cyl in ITB. Now... take a look at the minimum weights involved. In the case of the V6 ITA cars, we have to run the '88 model 220 lbs heavier than the 84-87. If you shift your attention to the two ITB cars, you find the '88 runs the *same* weight as the 84-87. Hmmmm. What's wrong with this picture? Is the '88 ITA car is being crapped on from a weight standpoint? Or is the '88 ITB car a sleeper? Or both?

FWIW, the '88 models (with either engine) have unquestionably better suspension and brakes than the '84-'87, especially given IT preparation limits.

Given this info, I would think the best choice of the bunch might be the ITB '88 4 cyl. I don't know if any '88 4 cyl cars are being raced ATM, but I do know of one that is (or at least was) being prepared.

Finally though, you need to consider the fact that the front suspension on the '88 Fiero was unique to that car (unlike the '84-87, which was off-the-shelf Chevette!). The unique pieces on the '88 include some high wear rate items, like the front hub/bearing assembly. This part was discontinued by GM years ago, with no suitable aftermarket replacement parts available. Actually, there are aftermarket hubs out there, but under racing conditions they last about as long as it takes to install them.


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Gary Learned
Volvo 142E

I recently asked someone who owned an IT-B Fiero he said that it was not very competitive. But as I look at IT-A it looks to me like the only disadvantage compared to CRXs and Miatas is weight. (Which I do realize is VERY important!) But it looks to me like it would do good considering it is mid-engine. I was also considering the fact that it is mostly plastic and would be cheaper to fix in the case of a wreck. I was also planning on autocrossing it as I build it. How competitive would the V-6 Fiero be in E-Stock/C-Street Prepared etc., and on in to SOLO I and some day IT-A? I realize that the object of IT is not to promise you a win in your class but with a good driver could a IT-A Fiero win?

Thank you very much
Forgive the questions im new to IT!!!

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Eric W. Chance
2000 Mazda Miata C-Stock
1964 1/2 Mustang (For Sale)

[lateapex911]

As it stands now, I doubt it.

Anytime you are on the same size tires as the other guy, you need to have a serious advantage in one area if you are deficit in another.

So, the question becomes, does the Fiero have enough power to outrun a 240SX? Wt. on the 240 is 2580, power is about 150 at the wheels. Crank is about 175 or so?

The Fiero weighs 2780, so you would want about 163 at the wheels, PLUS the amount needed to make up for the deficit in cornering speed and braking.

I think the CRX, the 240SX and the Integra are the class of the class with the new additions, the Sentra SER, the NX2000, the Neons, and the existing close but not quite Miatas nipping at the big dogs heels.

Thats SEVEN cars that are tough deals to get around.

So the question reverts to, "Can it win races??" And the answer is sure...depends on the field...

OK, that said, build the heck out of it, and see what happens! I love diversity, and who knows....the class might reward the effort.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Gary L]

FWIW, I can give you some data to peruse, admittedly at only one track. Last year, I took my street Fiero ('88 V6) to Hallett a few times for COMMA High Speed Touring events. With the following mods, I ended up running high 1:33's:

7" Kosei wheels
Used 205/50-15 R3S04 Hoosiers
Single adjustable Koni's (ca 1990)
Chopped stock springs
Decambered -3 deg fr -2.5 deg rr
Muffler removed
2980 lbs w/driver... repeat, 2980!

So, with a Fiero that was essentially stock, at 200 lbs over min weight, on used Hoosiers, we ran 3 seconds from the ITA lap record (Bob Stretch, 240SX 1:30.7). BTW, this is a 60k mile car that I've owned since new, so I know exactly what *is* stock and what isn't. For instance, the engine has never had the valve covers off. All emissions equipment was intact, including the converter. We were on stock suspension bushings, stock brake pads, nearly stock springs, etc, etc. Admittedly, I did NOT run the air conditioner. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

So yes, ...at Hallett... I'm of the opinion that a decently prepared and driven '88 V6 Fiero could do pretty well in ITA. And a bit of extrapolation tells me the ITB Fiero (again, an '88) could also be competitive there. The ITB lap record is a little over 2 seconds slower than ITA (Chris Albin, VW 1:32.9). The ITB Fiero would have significantly less power than the ITA car (stock numbers are 98hp vs 135hp, IIRC), but the car is also 230 lbs lighter.

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Gary Learned
Volvo 142E

[lateapex911]

interesting...

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]