Building a Budget?

[67ITB]

I am in the process of trying to provide my significant other with a best “guesstimate” of my expenses for a season of racing. And although I know the money goes out I can’t seem to be able to break it down into line items, and put it in a spreadsheet.

I know that some purchases are one-time expenses (generator) and others are reoccurring (entry fees) but I cant for the life of me come up with a list that reflects what I actually spend money on.

Do any of you have a list or spread sheet that you use to track your racing expenses? I am not looking to see how much you spend!!!! Only what some of the items are that you spend money on, so that I can develop an accurate budget?

Thanks in advance for your help

Matt Bal

[RacerBowie]

Email me at bowieg (at) lifelinkfound (dot) org and I will pass along my VERY comprehensive Spreadsheet.

Bowie

[zracre]

What kind of car? expenses can vary alot depending on tires etc....the biggest expense other than the car and keeping tires on it are travel expenses....email me too at [email protected] and i can send you some of my expense breakdowns. good luck!!


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Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[almracing]

Racing Budget = Way More than you should be spending on a hobby. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

Anthony R.
ITA #86 NER

[MMiskoe]

While you're still at the parts store, just write on the slip somethign that will remind you it was a purchase for the racecar and then throw it in a pile. When the pile is big enough (or when you spouse yells at you to clean off the desk) tally them up. Also get a credit card that is only for racing. Try to put everything for the racecar on it, then just look at the monthly statement.

This will obviously take a season or two to figure out where the money gets spent. You might be surprised what you spent the most money on at the end of a season (entries?).

If you do it on a spread sheet, resist the temptation to sum the column with the dollar amounts in it. Much easier to stomach the individual items if you don't see what they total to. Definetly don't start adding up all the seasons into a lifetime total.

[OTLimit]

I have threatened to put Chris on a single credit card, but it hasn't happened yet. I would have to be the one to call of his suppliers and change the card on file for this to actually work. And he really doesn't want to know the total anyway....I've come close to figuring it out a couple of times, and it gets real quiet around here. But the one credit card would really be the way to do it.

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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

[zooracer]

basically, you have to realize that you will never be a wealthy man if your racing, your always going to be hurting for money, and will probably die poor.
If this is worth it to you, then what is the point of trying to figure out exactly how much you spend?
I certainly cleared this with the miss long before we tied the knot...
Just race within your budgetary limits. Meaning, dont spend money on the car if you cant make next months mortgage, and you'll be fine.
If your wife objects to large amounts of money going out the door for a hobby, then showing her on paper exactly what your going to spend probably isnt going to help matters.
There is always bicycle racing. The tires last a lot longer...

[lateapex911]

First the war in Iraq, and now this! man.....you haven't had it easy lately have you?? http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

Kidding, of course, although the budget thingy would have me longing to get shot at again! LOL

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[67ITB]

Thank you all for your advice and especially to those that sent spread sheets to help track expenses.

Jake,
At least with the bullets flying I could wear a Kevlar vest to stop them…….
She keeps reminding me that I am worth more to her over there!!!
And I keep telling her that I am going to go back to Iraq where it’s peaceful!!!

Matt

[Andy Bettencourt]

Matt,

I'll show you what we have at NHIS, you bring the MRE's and I'll supply the beer.

http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[joeg]

While I have no budget, I do know what I spend on racing.

I do not like to share the annual figures because it sort of scares people away...literally...from venturing into the sport.

Remember, this is a pastime, diversion and hobby. If you can afford it, go for it; if not, try it at asmaller scale.

Most people can afford a car. it is the running, "per event" and maintenance costs that are high.

Cheers.

Cheers.

[Knestis]

Don't neglect the incidentals - all of the crap that gets lost (or you can hide) in a long receipt from Lowes or Home Despot: Bins, buckets, cords, lights, fans, tools, tarp stakes, hold-down straps, chairs, coolers, cleaners, gloves, fuel cans, bits of hardware, wiring connectors, umbrellas, etc., etc., etc.

It's VERY easy to carry $50 of crap to the register in a visit. Do that 3 times a week and you've increased your racing expenditures by $1800 for the year.

The same goes for brake cleaner, latex gloves, rags and other shop consummables.

It's also pretty impressive how quickly the installation of a $30 part can become a $60 project. That's what I spent installing my master cut-off switch, after I got done buying thick wire, connectors, HD strink wrap, hardware, sealant, and insulating goo for the terminals. That isn't counting the new step bit (another $30 or so) to replace the one that I couldn't find when I needed it.

I have personal issues about the whole budget thing because, as was alluded to above, I think we understate them pretty drastically - for a variety of reasons. This makes it all the easier for a newbie club racer to get in over his/her head, as they are misled by those of us who have been doing it for a while.

I used to race with a guy who built one of the very first IT cars in the US - it was actually a GRM project car, if I remember correctly. He used to take it to car shows and tell people that they could duplicate it for something like $3000. When it went up for sale later, oddly, it was suddenly almost twice that.

The "replacement price" of my Golf is right around $18,000 - not including the value of my or Cameron's labor. People are going to look at that and think, "That's WAY too much! I could buy a competitive ITS car for that!" but they'd be ignoring the fact that this total includes all new brake calipers, CV joints, tie rods, ball joints, hubs (three pairs by now), uprights, bearings, engine mounts, water pump, gaskets, belts, hoses (they are insanely expensive on this car!), and a bunch of other piddly stuff.

Racing a car while waiting for old OE parts to break is what we call "false economy." I've had [two] mechanical failure[s] in 1.5 seasons - when I couldn't start a run at a Rallycross because a nut fell off of the shift linkage. We finish enduros because we replace parts before they fail. Why would you spend entry fee money otherwise? [EDIT - needed to include the bearing problem at Summit.]

It also includes starting with a car that wasn't a basket case (no bodywork or paint to do), a comprehensive cage (~$2000), a really good seat (~$1000), and top-notch safety equipment.

All of this - including accurate accounting of the first year's real expenses - translates into a per-track-hour cost that approach $300. This includes depreciation of the car to zero over three years (a very sensible assumption, looking across the game) but not including hotels or entry fees.

I also didn't include sunk costs specific to the fact that I bought Showroom Stock-specific parts (like new OE struts) but that is balanced by the fact that I didn't include revenues generated by the sale of bits that came OFF of the car when I IT'd it.

You do NOT want to enter into this game fiscally uninformed. Honestly - SCCA racing has busted up marriages (I could point to two, that I actually watched fall apart) and put lots of people badly into debt.

K

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited June 29, 2005).]

[gsbaker]

I would estimate that $20K is needed to get into racing. This includes a car that is complete and safe, and a driver that is complete (licensed) and safe.

Everytime you say, "Let's go to the track," it's $500, if not more--potentially a lot more depending on your lifestyle and what breaks.

Purpose-built race cars are cheaper. You can find used FVs for under $5K. It costs about $18K to get into a SRF, but you can sell it a couple years later for $16K.

Road racers, BTW, spend twice as much as do drag and oval racers.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[67ITB]

Andy,
I will gladly drink your beer!!! and I will bring the MRE’s but you MUST eat them!!!

Kirk,
I think you hit the nail on the head with your trips to Lowes, Home Depot and Sears,
Not to mention the trailer shop and then there is the tow vehicle………

Those are exactly the costs I am trying to track, as it appears that every time I go out I drop 100 bucks on “something” that I “need” from…(insert favorite store).

I follow your same logic on vehicle maintenance and spend a lot of time replacing parts in the shop so that I can sit in my chair and relax while at the track. My car uses the (Dick Shine) “Navy Flotation” test for any questionable parts…. If you question a part, toss it in a bucket of water and if it sinks it needs to be replaced. After years and years of racing these cars Dick has us (Eli and I) on a vigorous preventative maintenance schedule.

Thanks again for the pointers (I see where that $$ is going)

Matt Bal

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by 67ITB:
Andy,
I will gladly drink your beer!!! and I will bring the MRE’s but you MUST eat them!!!

Kirk,
I think you hit the nail on the head with your trips to Lowes, Home Depot and Sears,
Not to mention the trailer shop and then there is the tow vehicle………

Those are exactly the costs I am trying to track, as it appears that every time I go out I drop 100 bucks on “something” that I “need” from…(insert favorite store).

I follow your same logic on vehicle maintenance and spend a lot of time replacing parts in the shop so that I can sit in my chair and relax while at the track. My car uses the (Dick Shine) “Navy Flotation” test for any questionable parts…. If you question a part, toss it in a bucket of water and if it sinks it needs to be replaced. After years and years of racing these cars Dick has us (Eli and I) on a vigorous preventative maintenance schedule.

Thanks again for the pointers (I see where that $$ is going)

Matt Bal

The dedicated credit card is a good way to keep track of the expenses. And, if you're diligent in using it for ALL the racing expenditures. An extension of that concept, is to set your annual racing budget, and have the card limit set to that. Granted, you should be paying the card bills as they come in (credit card racing is a very BAD thing!), but it will certainly give you an idea of where you are, vis-a-vis your annual budget.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[DavidM]

I definitely haven't been at this long enough to know what it takes over the long run, but I think you have to divide expenses into two categories: 1) startup costs 2) on-going costs. I'm still in the startup phase and don't even want to think about how much I've spent to put together everything (I could add it up as I keep everything in Quicken and have a "racing" category, but I think I'd get depressed). I look at most of it as a one time expense, though. At least I sure hope I never need another trailer (and everything in it) or tow vehicle. Then there's the on-going costs of going to a race and maintaining the car. That's your yearly budget. Once you're past the startup phase you just have to look at how much you can spend on racing each year and let that determine how many races you can make. At least that's how I'm approaching it.

David

[JamesB]

David,


what you have just mentioned is exactly what I am going through. Between changing my vehicals for a TV, safety gear, the car, trailer, random gear I need. I have a healthy investment, but not as bad since I already have most of the paddock stuff from my track days and autocrossing.

Then next season is just building my budget to see how many of the races I can afford to make.

I dont even tally what I spent on cars in the years go past, if I did I would cry.

[JLawton]

Originally posted by 67ITB:
I am in the process of trying to provide my significant other with a best “guesstimate” of my expenses for a season of racing.

Lie, lie, lie!!! My wife has found that ignorance is bliss!!

Spread sheet on the way.......


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Jeff L
#74 ITB GTi

[gran racing]

$20K to get into racing?? http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/eek.gif

When looking at a racing budget, there is a big difference between need and want. A generator, nice trailer, race built engine, using Hoosiers are all great but not necessary. But I guess that's why I'm still using a tow dolly. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/frown.gif The best thing for a new person it simply get a car that is track safe and won't break all of the time then spend as much money on becoming a better driver.

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[JamesB]

I wouldnt say you need 20k. But other then selling my frontier and buying something that has a towing capacity like a 1/2 ton or 3/4 ton (running an open deck so I dont need a lot.) Which I only plan not to exceed my current car payment so thats not as big an issue.

But so far the car, safety gear, motor rebuild (stock not to max spec), trailer, random items, fees and other some such I would say its just over 8k initial outlay to get the car shake it down at an HPDE and go to the Fall drivers school.

[emwavey]

"gran racing: $20K to get into racing??
When looking at a racing budget, there is a big difference between need and want..."

6500 - ITA CRX shipped w/spares
2200 - open trailer
7200 - Suburban 1500
_700 - shocks, new tires
_500 - FIA seat
_750 - three layer suit on closeout sale, gloves, socks, shoes, balaclava
_600 - 4 Toyos, shaved, mounted and balanced
1000 - miscellanious maintenance costs, starer, oil, brakes, fluid, new roll bar pads, window net, seat belts, starter, racer tape...

Not to mention the helmet I already had, the jack, jack stands, tools...

+ 2 SCCA Schools & 2 race weekends.

I don't know, 20K doesn't sound that far off for start up... sure I splurged on certain things and could have purchased a tow dolly, but in the grand scheme of things the trailer really wasn't that much more expensive.
[edit] forgot I sold the other CRX for $1800 in order to purchase a trailer. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

It has also taken me almost 2 years to get to the point where I'm at now... aquiring things along the way and not going overboard and spending more then I, sorry we, make.



[This message has been edited by emwavey (edited June 30, 2005).]

[gsbaker]

I agree with Matt. I don't believe one must spend $20K, but I'll bet most road racers do whether they know it or not.

Converting any production-based car to a race car seems to run $10K, including the base car. Then you have to get your safety gear, find some way to transport the race car, buy pit "stuff" like tools and supplies, throw in the cost of attending a couple of schools, etc. If you already have some of the "stuff" lying around fine, but from the time the average person says, "I wanna be a race car driver!" until the time they actually do it is going to take two years and $10-20K. Unless you rent. That's a different story.

Now, if you buy that FV I saw in the regional SCCA publication for $2K and put it on a dolly, you're under 5 grand.

(See the FAQ section at SpecMiata.com. People have offered some very detailed cost analyses and most total between $10K and $18K for the car.)

The only cash positive racer I ever met was an old guy who used to show up at the drag strip for Wednesday night bracket racing with his 1963 Chevy II--6 cyl, automatic, completely stock, driven to the track. His ETs never varied more than a couple hundredths and every week he took home $50.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gran racing]

I'm not trying to minimize the cost of racing, especially if you want to be up front. The other thing people need to look at is the car they choose. Typically the faster you go the more it costs. One of my biggest expenses is tires. BUT...it is not too difficult to find a decent already built car for $3,500. Will it run up front in that current state? No. But will it get you on the track and you can still have a blast? Yup. Of course there are many other expenses in addition to that that one needs to count on. I've raced mid-pack ITA and had an absolute blast especially racing Jake F. with our previous .005 difference in qualifying lap times! Now I'm fortunate (knock on wood) to be running towards the front of the pack. Honestly, the fun factor really isn't much different just more expensive.

Ray and Steve have often talked about their low budgets in previous posts. They seem to do "o.k.". (Alright, just a littler better than that.) To duplicate my car in it’s current state, one could do it for $8,000. I know Ray and Steve said their cars could be done for the same price range.

For my first school I used the stock suspension. I also have a friend now running his Miata with a stock suspension. Will he be very competitive that way? No but he has a huge smile on his face when he comes off the track. How many vehicles can tow 3,000 lbs? There are many out there. Again not optimum but there are many car / tow dollies that will put you at this weight. I will say Kirk brought up a great point that people do have to think about - all of the little trips to Home Depot that expenses can be hidden from one's mind. When going the cheap route, one also has to go into it understanding that you will need to put much time and effort into your hobby and car and it will be more than one might anticipate. But I personally do not attribute a dollar figure with the time I spend on my hobby and car. That would be kinda like thinking about the cost of playing basketball and counting the hours spent practicing free throws into the cost analogy.

As long as a person can go into the sport and really control their costs and recognize what is needed to race versus what they would like; understand things will break and require replacement; recognize that things can add up quickly; take advantage of the many ways to reduce costs, club racing can be done on a modest budget. Yeah I know, define modest…

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[Bill Miller]

While it's possible to get a car, and get it on the track for $5k (I've seen Spec 7's that you can drive to the track for $3k), there's a point that I refer to as 'critical mass'. While some of the things may fall into the "want" rather than the "need" category, I would suggest getting some of the "want" things that will make your weekend a more enjoyable experience. There's enough going on in a race weekend that you don't need the added stress of a marginal tow vehicle/marginal race car/marginal paddock configuration/etc.

I'd suggest that anyone thinking of getting in put a decent canopy on the "must" list. Other stuff that will make your life a little easier at the track, will go a loooong way towards making it a fun weekend. This is especially true if you're trying to convince a spouse/gf/so that it's something that they want to do as well.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Racerlinn]

Some very round numbers from my foray into Club Racing this year:
Car (already owned it) - worth about $3000 at best
Personal safety gear and car safety equipment prep - $2000
New Tires and extra set of wheels - $600
So I was at $5600 ($2600 outlay) and ready with a legal car to go to school.
Double School / Race weekend at Gateway in March (brrr...) costs - $1100
Double Regional at IRP in May to complete my rookie requirements plus other incidentals - $500
So it cost $7200 ($4200 outlay) to go from guy with a Solo2 car to licensed club racer. Now keep in mind that I am certainly middle-of-the-ITA-pack fodder, but it sure is fun racing with the ITB's and Spec Miatas! And the $400 so far in Kumho bucks is a nice windfall as well... http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/biggrin.gif

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Steve Linn
'92 ITA Sentra SE-R
www.indyscca.org (http://www.indyscca.org)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v366/Racerlinn/SideSER2.jpg

[zracre]

It all boils down to.....IT IS EXPENSIVE!!! It's too bad our sport has not progressed like roundy round or drag racing with purse money to help get to the next level...pro IT just does not pay enough and I have not seen a cheap way of doing this even with an inexpensive car. I bought my ITB GTI for 2500 spent 1000 on it and did well, but the expenses to get to the track, stay there, enter, race and get home are alot...unless you have parents that support, a rich spouse/family member, the magical sponsor or a high paying job...good luck winning on a regular basis and racing alot.

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Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[emwavey]

Just brainstorming here: What do you (I) really need?

I have wondered if I was doing the "right thing". Before purchasing the yellow ITA CRX, I'd considered building the double-duty daily driver/autocross CRX. Everyone says it's more expensive to build then to buy. I did my homework, priced different options out and it seemed like that was the case.

I've recently witnessed a few IT cars driven to the track... one is an ITA Neon, and Kirk's ITB Veedub. I also have a brother-in-law who races with PCA who, until recently, drove his car back and forth to the track. Somehow the idea of driving an IT car on the street is pretty dern cool, but the thing that kept me from doing this was two-fold.

One I would have spent almost as much on the street CRX to make it legal for IT racing, not to mention the time. The other, main reason was the safety concern many have expressed about driving a car on the street with a full cage... head to bars without a helmet.

I suppose one could wear their race helmet on the street, or wear one of those barely legal turtleshell helmets...

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-dave
nerdsracing.com (http://www.nerdsracing.com)
8)

[This message has been edited by emwavey (edited June 30, 2005).]

[JamesB]

The Neon you mention is WDCR's very own Lauren co-cheif of Pit. MARRS 4 was her first novice race. She does drive the car, but she keeps safe distance from others. I asked her about the cage and she said its a risk she can take to ease the cost of racing. Baltimore to Summit point isnt that bad, but I wonder about driving as far as VIR or the glen in a car like that.

[Bill Miller]

Hey, Kirk drove Pablo from Summit Point back to NC!

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Jiveslug]

Believe me, as one who has lurked on the fringes of the IT community for a few years now, I understand how racing can become so expensive. The trick for those who need to do it on a budget is to select a car that is relatively inexpensive and as bulletproof as possible. It may not be the fastest thing out there, but you will have fun, get plenty of track time, and when you start becoming a better driver, your car will “become” that much faster. I MAY be buying my donor next weekend, and I chose that car because of the factors I mentioned above. Its going to be an ITB Toyota. The one Im looking at is a good runner for $500 asking price. These old Toys are pretty much impossible to kill. Believe me, my friend who is helping me with the build owned one and ran it for 2 years without changing the oil, just to see if it could take it. We also have a couple of build strategies that will help reduce the pain from hemorrhaging cash. One is Ebay! Can you say Weber 32/36 for 50 bucks? It may need a rebuild, but even then its much less expensive than a new one. You can get by with good used parts for some things on your racer (NOT safety gear, however!) Also, you can do a progressive build. Start out the first year with just the necessary parts and a few “wants.” As you get better and faster, you can start adding more want parts. This way it takes a few years to fully build the car, but it spreads the cost out over time and teaches you to be a progressively better driver in the process.

Would I LOVE to race an Alfa Romeo or something? Absolutely. Am I willing to spend 5x the cash on a car that will break down 5x as much for my first car? Hell no. It still costs a lot of money to get into racing, but you can use your head to keep the costs under control.

On a side note, if you have a buddy who owns a truck or SUV that can tow, wrangle him into being a “crewmember.” Helps get rid of the cost of the tow vehicle. Heh.

Did I also mention that before I married my wife, I made her promise to God and everything that she loves and holds dear that she would let me race before I turned 35? That’s yet another good tactic to use…..

Im not a manipulative bastard, I swear!

[Knestis]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Hey, Kirk drove Pablo from Summit Point back to NC!



When we stopped for dinner, Cameron looked fresh as a daisy, getting out of my air-conditioned Honda street car. I looked like someone had pulled me ass-first through a sewer pipe.

But the car behaved perfectly well on the way home. I frankly don't worry very hard about the rollcage thing. How much padding do you have between your skull and the B-pillar of your street car (pre-side curtain airbag, that is)? Or the road if it were on the other side of the roof? At least I know I have SFI padding on the tubular parts I can get to.

K

[emwavey]

Originally posted by Knestis:
...I looked like someone had pulled me ass-first through a sewer pipe.


LOL

Way back in the 70's having been in a Chevy II that ran 10s, as a kid sitting on a milk crate... and eventually in the trunk, yeah I wonder how I survived. A rollcage on the street seems like child's play. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

I'm relatively new to the SCCA and for that matter club racing. Did folks used to drive their cars to the track more frequently back then?

Thinking about James Dean, Porsches, Brock Yates and stuff.

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-dave
nerdsracing.com (http://www.nerdsracing.com)
8)

[This message has been edited by emwavey (edited July 01, 2005).]

[Jiveslug]

Originally posted by Knestis:
When we stopped for dinner, Cameron looked fresh as a daisy, getting out of my air-conditioned Honda street car. I looked like someone had pulled me ass-first through a sewer pipe.


You have been in rare form the last few days there, Kirk. Heh.

[DavidM]

I think the best way to approach things is by figuring out how much you *can* spend not how much is it going to cost. If you've only got $10k to spend then you'd better make sure that's all you spend and purchase accordingly. I probably tossed ideas around in my head and saved up for a year or more before I pulled the trigger. I'm a firm believer in spending a lot of time planning before doing things. Figure out your budget, do as much research as you can, determine what you *have* to get, and then go for it.

I think it's pretty intimidating putting together a racing setup for the first time, which is what I'm still doing. There's a lot of stuff to think about and a lot to learn. I personally don't think I could've done it without the information I found on these forums or without meeting up with some fellow IT racers (thanks Tristan and Bowie). Beyond the dollars you need to think about how much time you have as well cause this stuff takes a lot of time. My yard looks like crap at the moment http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif.

David

[jc836]

Canopy-did someone mention canopy-Go directly to Dick's Sporting Goods and for $50 get one today. We did it on Tuesday. The unit is made for them by the same folks that make Quik Shade. All-steel construction with a very nice cover panel. Easy to set up. If I can do it alone anyone can. It is another in the long list of budgeted line items that we debated until sunburn got us at BeaveRun this year. See how things can and do escalate. Oh-and did I mention that there are some very specialized tools one should have to make life a lot easier both at home and at the track.

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Grandpa's toys-modded suspensions and a few other tweaks
'89 CRX Si-SCCA ITA #99
'03 Dodge Dakota Club Cab V8-Patriot Blue gonna tow

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Jiveslug:
You have been in rare form the last few days there, Kirk. Heh.

Yep. Kirk's on a roll. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

G

[lateapex911]

My first car was my street car that I had purchased a year earlier for $1K, and I drove it to every race my first year. One set of Toyos, a bolt on muffler, a suspension kit and a exhaust system.... and a tent.

Life was good.

Sold the car after its 6th race, (my first "pro" race and my highest finish ever, where I won actual cash.(...for about 4K.

So I got lucky... LOL

But it CAN be done, and I wouldn't trade that first year for anything.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]