Keep my ITA MR2 or build ITS 240SX

[pimpm3]

Me and my co-driver are having a hard time deciding what to do. We currently have a 1985 MR2 that we did the drivers school at roebling in and raced three times last year with in ITA. The car runs well and has a perfect body and cage but is in need of new shocks, and a serious weight reduction. We got the car as a first race car and it has served us well but I would like something that is a little newer with more aftermarket support and is larger inside (I am 6'3" and feel a little cramped in the MR2) We have a 1993 240SX coupe that we recently aquired and are thinking of building up for ITS. My question is am I crazy? Should I keep my perfectly good reliable MR2 or should I embark on another project and build up the 240SX.

Here is a pic of the MR2 in question

http://www.warehousemotors.com/store/viewe...=29-29-65-1.jpg (http://www.warehousemotors.com/store/viewer.asp?image=29-29-65-1.jpg)

[lateapex911]

Do you want to spend all the money, and all the time to build, and have it win???

I have never seen an ITS 240 be really strong in a real field of quality cars...

A lot of $ and a difficult build for a questionable outcome.

Be positive of where you want to wind up, competitivness-wise.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Jake]

Nice MR2! If you are looking for something more competitive, an ITS 240 is not the answer. As for room, get a Kirkey Seat and mount it to the floor - my MR2 has tons of room inside.

www.racerjake.com (http://www.racerjake.com)

[Knestis]

If you want to build a 240, do the ITA version. It should be a reasonable choice, whereas the S version is a steep uphill climb.

K

[pimpm3]

Thanks

My thinking with the 1993 240SX is that it is free. I bought it as a parts car for my street car (I needed the entire interior). It has a certificate of destruction, which means that it can't be sold or registered. It runs strong and only has 100K on it. I have the entire front end which is what was damaged on the car since I converted my street car to a Japenese front end. (The car needs a core support, a hood, and a left fender which I have left over.) I add the new brakes (which I removed from my street car when I converted it to a five lug), the JDM LSD that came with my front clip that I didn't use and I have a nice running car that cost me nothing but my time. I can get a bolt in autopower cage for 670.00 plus shipping, a Kirky seat and a new harness for another $350.00. Add another 1000.00 For Koni's and Ground controls and I have a fun yet non competitive ITS car.

I understand I will not be competitive but I will be on the track and improving my driving skills while having a good time which is what this is all about. I understand going fast costs money but I think I can pull this off and have a good time.

Also keep in mind I am used to driving my non competitive MR2 which isn't fast either... http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by pimpm3 (edited June 01, 2005).]

[lateapex911]

OK, as long as you are Ok with running mid pack at a competitive event....

But remember, this statement, "At least I'll be out there running for little money", is the trap that so many of us a have slipped into, but then years later we have poured a little here, a little there to make the car the best it can be, and we have a car that is worth as much as it is competitive.

Maybe the car fits the NASA class grouping better, or EMRA, and that would be cool.

Or maybe it would be a great sell to the drifter crowd, and allow you to invest in something that will give you better long term satisfaction and value.

It sounds though, that you are pretty set with the plan and are OK with the probable result, so thats cool. Keep us in the loop!

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Knestis]

Buy someone who's built a race car a beer or three and revisit your budget estimates. The initial cost of the box that all of the parts go in - the shell - typically disappears pretty quickly when building a racing car.

That said, I hadn't considered the drift answer. If you haven't seen one, try to catch the D1 events that are getting aired (someplace goofy, like the Outdoor channel?). Rhys Millen has discovered that it's easier to be a "pro racer" doing that than rallying, road racing, offroad, or Pike's Peak.

K

[gran racing]

Sorry, but you have me a bit confused...


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">My thinking with the 1993 240SX is that it is free.</font> You also state that the car is unbuilt and would need a bunch of things to make it IT legal.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">We currently have a 1985 MR2...</font> By the way, it does look very nice!

My feeling is that if you are o.k. with not being a front runner and these are your only two cars (versus buying a competitive already built car), why move away from the MR2? If costs are a concern at all, this holds true even more so. Just remember, typically the faster you go the more expensive it gets. Jake drives me absolutely nuts with his darn MR2!!! The MR2 is so well balanced and lite on tires, brakes and other parts. While I'm replacing tires after every 3 races, he does it after each season. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/rolleyes.gif The MR2 is so easy on tires he even switched to the autocross Hoosiers this year. Also, you already know what you have with the MR2. Weight reduction is cheap. Some good shocks isn't that bad as well as a used Kirkey seat.

The other thing...the ITS 240 is not competitive and doesn't have a shot of being so (no move to ITA). Now the MR2, who knows? I still feel that someday it just may move to ITB with some weight - less reduction work for ya http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif. Yes I know, that may be a long shot but it is still a shot.

Just some food for thought.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[benspeed]

Keep that MR2 and put the time into the track! A lengthy build for a car that you won't be able to sell and will not move you up to the front is a bad outcome for a large time investment. MR2 to ITB would be a very cool outcome. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/biggrin.gif

[jhooten]

Another vote for keeping the MR2. Take the money you would use to build the 240 and do the needed work on the MR2 and buy a bunch of track time and you will be better off in the long run.

But that is just my opinion.

[ITANorm]

If it's any consolation, I think the MR2 can be made more competitive in A than the 240 can in S.

The MR2 can be gotten down to legal weight - unless you weigh well over 200#; especially an '85 hardtop.

------------------
Norm - #55 ITA, '86 MR2. [email protected]
http://home.alltel.net/jberry/img107.jpg
Website: home.alltel.net/jberry (http://home.alltel.net/jberry)

[Banzai240]

You guys putting down the 240SX for ITS need to go back and really read the rules...

First, no one has REALLY made an all out attempt to make the car competitive.

Second, if you look at the stock specs for the cars, the earlier models ('91-'94) have a curb weight that is MUCH more condusive to actually making the minimum weight. Additionally, these earlier cars have the option of running the longer duration cam from the '91 model.

There is no way that an S14 will be competitive at the top level against a BMW or an RX-7, but it otherwise has the mechanical ability to be competive... AND, it's a hell of a lot better looking than either of those cars! http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
http://home.comcast.net/~djjordan/Web/DJ_AV1.jpg

[turboICE]

The DOHC S13 is lighter if you find a coupe - the hatchback still weighs an awful lot for ITS racing.

Other than bumper covers and the motor the chasis is the same for the S13 DOHC and SOHC. If someone had a 91 shell could it be legally built as an ITA car? (I doubt it in an absolute technical sense, but was wondering about this until I finally found a couple '89 coupe shells and was thinking about a '91 coupe shell briefly.)

[erlrich]

Originally posted by turboICE:
The DOHC S13 is lighter if you find a coupe - the hatchback still weighs an awful lot for ITS racing.


Sorry for the slight highjack, but I've seen this comment numerous times from different sources, and was just wondering if anyone has verifiable numbers for the weight difference between the HB & coupe. The only thing I've ever found was a FAQ section on the 240SX.org website, which shows approx. 25 - 30 lbs. between the two (in both the SOHC & DOHC versions), which I don't consider to be significant.

Cheers
Earl

[Banzai240]

I have the Manufactures specification sheets for the '91-'94 and the '95-'98 cars, and the curb weight listed for the earlier models is around 2650lbs, vs. over 2800lbs for the later models...

My car in race trim is 2750lbs with me in it (I'm 225lbs), and I think I might be able to shave another 60lbs or so from it with some work... perhaps a bit more with a really well thought out fuel cell installation... so I suppose it IS possible to make the 2650lbs minimum weight... It would be a LOT easier if you were starting from that weight in the first place...

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
http://home.comcast.net/~djjordan/Web/DJ_AV1.jpg

[pimpm3]

I talked with my co driver today and I think we are going to keep the MR2. I need to make a few changes to the cage (put the rear bars throuh the rear window to the rear strut mounts, and convert the drivers side impact bar to a NASCAR Bar to get a little more impact protection) and we are going to buy new Tokicos and a set of Ground Control Coilovers. I figure that I can sell the 1993 240SX to some one who wants a drift/ITS car and rcoupe some of the new MR2 Suspension cost.

It is a Coupe by the way with no sunroof if anyone is intrested... Make me an offer http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

[slickS14]

I have an S14 for sale that IS an all out ITS racecar. It is very competitive in the southeast and I have it at minimum weight no problem.
Darin, you have mentioned the weight thing before but my 95 base model that I began with has no weight issues and I'm 190lbs. The last time weight of these cars was discussed on these forums you were talking about your car being heavy then shortly after that you were posting questions about which header and exhaust was recommended. That is misleading to people that are considering these cars a racecar in my opinion. I have also spent many hours on a chassi dyno, scales, test days and races with my car to get it competitive, that's just what it takes, not just some bolt ons. In the last four SARRC races I have competed in, the car did not qualify out of the top 7 and did not finish out of the top three. I really don't see where everyone has this idea that the S14 isn't competitive in ITS. No, it's not dominant like a top E36 or maybe a small handful of RX7s but it is fun, dependable, handles well and runs in the front if driven hard enough. The only thing my car is lacking is an expensive shock package, currently running Koni Yellows, and still very competitive. The more I read these forums the more I see the line between competitive and dominant blurred.

[Ron Earp]

Is that the black one with green flames? If so, that car is quite fast and I've watched it numerous times, pulling for it to put a BMW behind it, which has happened on occassion. Finishes have been good and it looks like the car is close to being very well sorted and on top of the game. ITS 240sx is definitely competitive, at least that one is!


------------------
Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS
Email: "rlearp at gt40s.com"

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited June 02, 2005).]

[slickS14]

I forgot - PimpM3 - can you e-mail some pics and specifics to me - newby211<at>bellsouth<dot>net or call me at 404.314.5042
I'm interested in it

[slickS14]

Ron, yes that's mine. It can be seen at www.newberryracing.com (http://www.newberryracing.com). What happened to you Sunday? I looked for you in the paddock to introduce myself and put a face to a computer name but you were MIA.

[Jake]

pimp - good choice in keeping the two! I have the tokico/GC combo and it is a great setup for the $. If you need any help on how to setup your car right and do it on the cheap - please visit my site or contact me directly.

Jake
www.racerjake.com (http://www.racerjake.com)

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by slickS14:
I have also spent many hours on a chassi dyno, scales, test days and races with my car to get it competitive, that's just what it takes, not just some bolt ons.

Why do you feel I need to be told this?? I suppose you think I don't KNOW what it takes to be competitive with one of these??? I ask about a header and you think I only do bolt-ons??? Maybe you should ask me about the developement next time...

I'm happy that your base model car doesn't have any weight problems... that's great... The fact is that My, and my best friends, ex-TEAM NISSAN World Challenge 1996 and 1998 SE models do... And, like I said before, including in the post up above, I believe there are some additional ways to get some more weight out...

Maybe Nissan hid some lead in the cage some where that I'm not aware of to make weight for World Challenge... http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/rolleyes.gif

AND, to quote what I said previously:


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">There is no way that an S14 will be competitive at the top level against a BMW or an RX-7, but it otherwise has the mechanical ability to be competive... AND, it's a hell of a lot better looking than either of those cars!</font>

Isn't that EXACTLY what you just said??? I don't see how I've mislead anyone... What WOULD be misleading is to tell them these cars do NOT have potential weight issues, and then have them have the same kind of weight issues that mine has...

So, to be specific, apparently, what it takes to make weight with one of these cars is to get a BASE model, 4-lug car and begin working with that... which I believe is what Mr. SlickS14 has done... If he has any other suggestions, I'm sure he'll be forthright and share them here...

Also, to answer the posters original question... I'd go with the S14 for many reasons, not the least of which is that it's a WAY cooler looking car in my opinion, has gobs of torque, and I believe it has the potential to run up front if you are willing to develop it and can really drive! http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
http://home.comcast.net/~djjordan/Web/DJ_AV1.jpg

[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited June 04, 2005).]

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by slickS14:
Ron, yes that's mine. It can be seen at www.newberryracing.com (http://www.newberryracing.com). What happened to you Sunday? I looked for you in the paddock to introduce myself and put a face to a computer name but you were MIA.

Chris,

I would have liked to have chatted with you about a 240sx since I really like that car a lot and am entertaining it for my "modern" car after the JH.

Jeff and I packed it in early because our LSD let go along with, we think, our clutch - it appears the hit at Roebling did a lot more than just the visible damage. The car was deadfully slow and basically a marker on the track, so after running a little on Saturday we decided to retire. It is fast, when working correctly, but the hit has really held us up this year.

Chris' car seems to run very well here in the SE, which has a mixture of tight racing tracks (CMP) and long power tracks (VIR). Obviously I've never driven one on the track, but watching them it appears they can be very competitive in ITS but as mentioned, not dominant. That is good isn't it, don't we all want a class where no car is dominant and winning all the time? Still, seems they are stronger in A but it wouldn't stop me from building or buying a ITS 240sx, it is on my short list.

R


------------------
Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS
Email: "rlearp at gt40s.com"

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited June 04, 2005).]

[slickS14]

Darin, I'm not quite sure why you feel as though I attacked you or your car development but your response seemed pretty defensive. By the way my name is Chris Newberry #1 ITS 240sx from Atlanta if you ever need to contact me.
For the record I didn't accuse you of anything, I pointed out that a person reading these posts that may be considering building a S14 would be mislead in general if they only read your post about being heavy and then missed the one about your search for a racing exhaust, which (in my case) is lighter than the factory assembly. I also didn't state that "you" have only bolt-ons, I pointed out, again in general, for those who may be new or considering building a racecar that it takes alot of development to get these things to the front.
I'm pretty sure this topic started as "to build a 240sx or keep the currrent car." I didn't see "hey Darin, your car is underdeveloped or slow" anywhere in the topic. Maybe it should be a lesson to some to do some research, and then either build a car from your research or buy a former factory car and attempt to restructure it to a different set of rules and be dissapointed in the results. It's defensive or hostile responses like yours that bolster my decision to sell my car and move on and also helps others decide to run NASA or other sanctioning bodies.

[Andy Bettencourt]

It's worth mentioning that Chris and his 240SX grabbed a top 10 at the 2004 ARRC. He was the 3rd non-BMW and his fast lap was 2.3 seconds off the RX-7 that came in 4th.

Not bad. I would say an interesting choice for you non-Mazda/BMW/Datsun people!

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[bosco]

A well developed, well driven 240sx can be competitive, especially on tighter courses where torque off the corner is especially important. Our 91 model has had a good number of top five finishes at sebring, moroso and even at Daytona (5th) over the last several years. It does not have the straight line speed of Mike Flynn's mercedes or some the BMW's or Buzz Marcus' Speedsource
car. It does have great brakes, handling and excellent acceleration off the corner.
It was built in 1997 by Mike Covello on a limited budget. The car had a best of 2nd at sebring in 2004 at Sebring with Squeak Kennedy at the wheel. I believe a 240sx would be a more rewarding car to compete with vs an ITA MR2.