CMP, BMW, Cams, and 944

[Ron Earp]

I was down at CMP this past weekend for a fairly disappointing weekend of racing, or should I say, a weekend of watching people race. Eventually we packed it in early Sunday morning since we lost a clutch and our limited slip rear end, both of which made the car completely undrivable.

However, when I went over to the tech stand on Friday night I saw a cylinder head with some cams lying on a table. I asked one of the fellows who’s car it was that blew up and he replied none. Turns out they were stock BMW 325 heads and cams. He then told me that BMW’s were in question as to what cams they were running because specifications were not outlined in the shop manual, therefore, some people took that to mean cams were free as well as they were liberal with “port matching”. He didn’t say a lot more than that, I don’t know who brought the cams and head or if something happened.

Anyone that was down there, did something happen to BMW’s with respect to protesting?

I only saw one running on Saturday and can’t even remember who it was, although it was fast and ran well. The stronger BMW cars I've seen, orange one and the black one that I saw at VIR on Mother's Day, were not there this weekend. My guess is (based on flow calulcations) that the plates did nothing for the incredible torque the motors produce throughout the rev range and the proper thing to have done with them is put them BACK at the weight it was classed at in the first place.

Nevertheless, I had a great time for the few hours I was there at the track and enjoyed meeting a lot of new people. As far as cars, I was quite impressed with a Grey Porsche 944s from the Northeast I saw running down there than anything else – one of the first I’d seen at CMP and it was very fast. Anyone here own, drive, or know about it?

Ron




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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS

[Knestis]

Sounds like the old, "We're bringing stock parts to leave in tech" strategy...

It's academic to this case, since there's no evidence that it ever actually became a question, but whether or not there is a spec called out in the factory manual has EXACTLY nothing to do with what is legal, cam-wise.

The rule says stock, as delivered so we can use any cam that actually came in a US-spec version of the car on the spec line in question.

K

[Bryan Watts]

Originally posted by rlearp:
the proper thing to have done with them is put them BACK at the weight it was classed at in the first place.

It's been a while since I played around with IT BMW's, but my memory seems to recall the cars being ORIGINALLY classed at 2850, then it was changed to 2950 without any real precedent to do so in IT rules, and thus it was then changed back to 2850.

[Ron Earp]

You might be right there, I'm new to this and was simply told by the tech guy that they used to be at a higher weight.

At any rate, they are at a much lower weight than any street car ever drove at, while my JH spec weight is actually higher than stock curb weight! I digress. You are probably right, I was simply going on what the fellow told me which is probably not a good idea - verify before writing! Sorry.

As far as the cams, Kirk you are right completely on the rules, but that tech guys' point was there are no specs in the BMW manual (he says) so having a stock one around to take lift measurements from and do a visual inspection is useful. I don't know, was just wanting to learn the story of why those things were there and what happened.

Ron

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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited May 31, 2005).]

[Andy Bettencourt]

A grey 944S from the Northeast? Betting it is Kip VanSteenburg. His first race was Pocono three weeks ago. Car ran strong Saturday but had clutch slave cylinder issues Sunday and DNS'd. Results for reference:

http://www.mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=157353

and

http://www.mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=157084

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[JeffYoung]

Andy, it was Kip's car. Very well prepared, very fast.

[mlytle]

which black bmw at vir? the all black one(mine) or the black/red/white one(ed york)? he is faster... http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

marshall

[Ron Earp]

Black/red/white and the orange one, those things were very fast on the course being something like 5-8 seconds per lap ahead of the next fastest ITS car, maybe a little more as I can't remember, check it on MyLaps. Good drivers, that is for sure.

Any insight into the head cam issue if you were at CMP?



------------------
Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Bryan Watts:
It's been a while since I played around with IT BMW's, but my memory seems to recall the cars being ORIGINALLY classed at 2850, then it was changed to 2950 without any real precedent to do so in IT rules, and thus it was then changed back to 2850.


Bryan,

There have been other cases where spec weights have been 'corrected' [sic] after a car has been classified. But, we've got PCA's in place now, and I'm sure that they'll do what ever it takes to bring the car back to the field.

Ron,

As I understand it, the only thing curb weights have to do w/ spec weights, is a reality check to see if you can actually make it.


------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Bill Miller]

On the subject of this thread, how do you prove that the parts brought, are actually stock, and are the proper things to be compared to?

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Bryan Watts]

5-8 seconds PER LAP? Did the York and Sunbelt cars have superchargers at CMP?

[This message has been edited by Bryan Watts (edited May 31, 2005).]

[seckerich]

The parts in question were brought by the chief of tech. They remain from last year when they were sourced for the protest on the Sunbelt car Chet was driving. I contacted the chief before the weekend last year and asked if they would be prepared for teardown of an e36. I did not identify the car nor request specific parts. It was my understanding that another driver planned a similar teardown this weekend if that car showed- it did not. The only parts allowed in teardown for comparison must be provided by tech from a known source so it expedites the process if they are prepared. Yes, the BMW's were about 3 seconds faster than the RX at VIR but York "skipped" some of the course and had to start at the back of the S field. Chet was fast and smooth and had lots of pull off the corners. Cost me about 2 car lenths every exit. The grand course was perfect for the BMW torque with lots of exits off slow corners.

[This message has been edited by seckerich (edited May 31, 2005).]

[Ron Earp]

Brian, the speed advantage I referred to with the BMWs was at the Grand Course at VIR. Yes, if you check MyLaps the times are quite a bit faster than most of the S field with their laptimes being 5 seconds or more faster than other cars. Steve has a really fast RX7, I think the fastest in the SE, and it couldn't come close to those things at VIR then - they were that fast.

So those parts are from the Cheif of Tech there then? I need to pay more attention and learn to know more people, but I am trying.

Was last year the year that the parts were to be used for a protest but BMW's left the paddock area before running at all once they learned of the parts being available? That doesn't sound too good if true. Someone in the shed said something about that but then the line got busy and I didn't want to hold people up jabbering.

Maybe they were looking for the Group N cams that James Clay posted in a thread in the BMW Forum a year or so ago. Since only a couple cars seem to be walking away from the rest of the ITS field, it does make one wonder if it's the car, the driver, or something else?

Speaking of the BMW weight, anyone else notice that one of the newest cars to be classed in ITS is 250 pounds heavier than the E-36?
The 94-95 Mustang V-6, which is saddled with smaller brakes (front and rear), less power stock and in ITS tune (most likely compared to the E-36's anyways)and it has to weigh in at 3100 pounds? No wonder there haven't been many Mustangs built for ITS. The Mustang isn't the only newer car listed at over 3000 pounds.

[This message has been edited by 2Many Z's (edited May 31, 2005).]

[mlytle]

drivers. ed york and chet wittel would be the cream of the its crop. ed smokes all the rest of us by 2 sec a lap at summit point. my in car vid from vir is interesting. i was second row on the start behind them and was with them to turn one. by turn 5 they were gone. i'd bet their cars are legal, they just drive a heck of a lot better than i do.... http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif


[This message has been edited by mlytle (edited May 31, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by mlytle (edited May 31, 2005).]

Marshall,
I think Ed's biggest advantage is the car. Yes, he's a damn good driver, but, there are a lot of good drivers in ITS in the DC region who are just as good, they just don't the HP that Ed has. I'd be willing to bet if Ed drove Ted's car or your's, his lap times wouldn't be much faster.

Ed has a ton of laps at Summit, but he makes mistakes just like anyone else, especially when Sam (wonder where he's been?)is on his tail. I've watched him totally blow the entry into the Carousel (once I think he even got a DNF because he slammed the inside curbing so hard)lap after lap when Sam is hounding him.

I've never watched Chet in person, but from what people have said about him when they competed in the ARRC against him, he's one of the smoothest and most consistant drivers in the class.

Guess we'll see how Ed does this weekend in the 12 Hour and if his lap times are considerably faster than his teammates. I know I'm going to be timing them off and one just to see.......


[This message has been edited by 2Many Z's (edited June 01, 2005).]

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by 2Many Z's:
The 94-95 Mustang V-6, which is saddled with smaller brakes (front and rear), less power stock and in ITS tune (most likely compared to the E-36's anyways)and it has to weigh in at 3100 pounds?

For the record, the Mustang classification is being corrected, because we had incorrect data when we classified it and used the wrong HP figures... I believe the new weight will be more in the 2850lb range, but I'd have to go back and look through my notes to be certain...

As for the E36 weight and the implimentation of the restrictor... Well, let me just say that no one on the ITAC is suprised that the restrictor was not enough... it is being monitored...

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
http://home.comcast.net/~djjordan/Web/DJ_AV1.jpg

[mlytle]

Originally posted by 2Many Z's:
Marshall,
I think Ed's biggest advantage is the car. Yes, he's a damn good driver, but, there are a lot of good drivers in ITS in the DC region who are just as good, they just don't the HP that Ed has. I'd be willing to bet if Ed drove Ted's car or your's, his lap times wouldn't be much faster.

Ed has a ton of laps at Summit, but he makes mistakes just like anyone else, especially when Sam (wonder where he's been?)is on his tail. I've watched him totally blow the entry into the Carousel (once I think he even got a DNF because he slammed the inside curbing so hard)lap after lap when Sam is hounding him.

I've never watched Chet in person, but from what people have said about him when they competed in the ARRC against him, he's one of the smoothest and most consistant drivers in the class.

Guess we'll see how Ed does this weekend in the 12 Hour and if his lap times are considerably faster than his teammates. I know I'm going to be timing them off and one just to see.......


[This message has been edited by 2Many Z's (edited June 01, 2005).]

i think sam is still without a car after the the marrs9 crash. not sure when he will be back.

have fun at the 12hr! wish i could make it, but i have to work. ed was cutting laps faster than his team mates last year. be interesting to see how he does this year!

[ed325its]

I must disagree that the addition of a restrictor plate was not enough. My car is certainly down on torque, and I am sure the RX-7 that had to push me out of turn 3 and up the hill at NHIS will have to agree. (Thanks BTW) Let's wait for evidence of the effect of the restrictor plate before making additional statements and adjustments. I do agree that there are cars, and the E36 not the only one, which need to be reigned back to the pack. In the Northeast the RX-7 holds nearly all of the track records and has set new, blistering, records this year. It is time to consider PCA's on additional cars. I would like to see a more competiitve field.

Ed

[Ron Earp]

From what I've read on the board over the months it appears to me there are differences based on regions as to the competitiveness of BMWs.


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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by ed325its:
Let's wait for evidence of the effect of the restrictor plate before making additional statements and adjustments.

I said it was being monitored... so I guess we agree on the current course of action...



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
http://home.comcast.net/~djjordan/Web/DJ_AV1.jpg

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by ed325its:
I must disagree that the addition of a restrictor plate was not enough. My car is certainly down on torque, and I am sure the RX-7 that had to push me out of turn 3 and up the hill at NHIS will have to agree. (Thanks BTW) Let's wait for evidence of the effect of the restrictor plate before making additional statements and adjustments. I do agree that there are cars, and the E36 not the only one, which need to be reigned back to the pack. In the Northeast the RX-7 holds nearly all of the track records and has set new, blistering, records this year. It is time to consider PCA's on additional cars. I would like to see a more competiitve field.

Ed

Ed,

Are you are inferring that the RX-7 is dominant? Let's remind everyone that looking at REGIONAL results is VERY dangerous. There are NO 10/10th prepared E36's in the Northeast. Ed and Chet have the best prepared cars, with the best equipment - all driven at that level. Same with Nick's RX-7. Head down to the ARRC and get pulled by 5 car lengths on the back straight like our RX-7...

Bottom line? The evaluation is still being done. It looks to be a good thing but don't anyone expect to run with the 100% cars without one yourself. You can try, but when drivers are equal, you have to have equal equipment.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by rlearp:
From what I've read on the board over the months it appears to me there are differences based on regions as to the competitiveness of BMWs.


Andy, more concise version what I said eariler. Some of the BMW's down here are top flight from what I can tell and it appears there are some folks that feel there is hanky panky going on, hence the head and cams on the table I suppose.

It has been a good learning experience for me to see some of these things happening at various tracks and how different people approach different situations. I'm pleased that people are paying attention to legality of cars and it is a concern in IT. As for these cars in question, I don't know enough to know one way or another how they are setup etc. I've just been investigating various ITS cars over the last few months (hence my BMW post in the tech section with that car for sale) and it is clear to me there are different levels of prep depending on the region. The SE seems to have a lot of racing and a lot of top prepped IT cars, as does the NE.

I really like seeing "different" fast cars and hope to see more fast cars than just BMWs - I've seen a fast 240sx, RX7 2nd gen, and recently that grey 944s - hope to see more like them.

Ron


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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS

I still see the solution as a simple one.

Just as an example, if one or two E-36's in particular are leaving the rest of the ITS class in the dust, while the rest of the pack is a mixture of E-36's, RX-7's, 240Z's, Integra's, etc that are having a real battle on their hands for their finishing positions, and those one or two dominant cars are using Motec while the rest of the E-36's aren't, then ban the Motec. Very simple.

It's odd how the class has gone from one dominant car to another, yet, at least in the DC Region, it wasn't always so much a particular dominant make, but the driver behind the wheel. In the early to mid 80's, the class was mostly 240Z's, which at that time were the dominant model, but, usually there were 3-4 drivers sharing wins.
Then, a lone TR-8 showed up and took everyone by surprise, then the rules were changed and the coil over suspensions evened out the field once again.
In the early 90's when I competed the class was still dominated by 240Z's and a few well prepped First Gen RX-7's. But, the wins were still being swapped between the 4-5 best drivers, not one overly dominant car. Then along came a well driven, well prepped E-30 that totally dominated for a year or so.
The 240's eventually caught up, but by then, the 2nd Gen Rx-7's and a few 944's showed up on the scene and it was once again anyone's race to win or lose.
Then, along comes the E-36, and now it has been only one or two totally dominant cars that have won nearly every MARRS race in the past 4-5 years. Integra shows up, still 2-3 seconds slower lap times, best the rest of the E-36's can do is about the same, as well as the die-hard 240, RX-7 and 944 drivers, as well as a couple 190E's. While one or two E-36's are turning high 1:24's and 1:25's, the rest of the class is in the 1:27 to 1:30 range.
At the same time, a couple of the top ITA 240SX's are running at or near the front of the "rest of the ITS class" and turning times nearly equal to the best 240's, RX7's, the balance of the E-36 field,and the Integra, while one or two lone E-36's are winning by 30+ seconds on the field.

These are just my opinions and observations of the MARRS series over the past 15-20 years, I know they don't speak for any other region, but it should give those of you an idea of why some regions are complaining more than others. I'd be surprised if other regions haven't seen nearly the same progression over the years.



[This message has been edited by 2Many Z's (edited June 01, 2005).]

[ed325its]

Yes we are in agreement, the situation should be monitored. All cars need to be monitored. However, decisions should not be made prematurely. Your comment was clear that your mind may already be made. ("no one is surprised..." instead of no one would be surprised.

Yes, under any definition holding and then smashing track records is domination.

This is never a comparison between my car and a fully prepared car. I know that my car is not 100%, but failing to spend $5k for engine and head work, $8k for MOTEC, and $5k for Motons, it is as developed as it is going to get. The escalation of cost is the greater problem. It should not cost $40k+ to be competitive in ITS. How does the ITAC, with all our help, propose to lower costs and rules creep in IT.

------------------
Ed Tisdale
#22 ITS '95 325is
Racing BMW's since 1984

[Knestis]

This is topic creep - rather than rules creep - but there is NO way to legislate costs downward.

If I had thou$sand$ to spend and an all-but-Motons-and-Motec e36 in the garage, I'd spend the money on coaching, tires, and test days, rather than hardware, and probably be faster than the racer who made the other choice.

If rules outlawed those fancy pieces, I'd do the same thing.

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by ed325its:
Yes we are in agreement, the situation should be monitored. All cars need to be monitored. However, decisions should not be made prematurely. Your comment was clear that your mind may already be made. ("no one is surprised..." instead of no one would be surprised.

Yes, under any definition holding and then smashing track records is domination.

This is never a comparison between my car and a fully prepared car. I know that my car is not 100%, but failing to spend $5k for engine and head work, $8k for MOTEC, and $5k for Motons, it is as developed as it is going to get. The escalation of cost is the greater problem. It should not cost $40k+ to be competitive in ITS. How does the ITAC, with all our help, propose to lower costs and rules creep in IT.



Comment 1. We are in full agreement. I have not seen any hard evidence that the restricted E36's need more restriction. Conversely, I have not seen any hard evidence that they are OVER-restricted. Time will tell.

Comment 2. What is happening in your area is simple. The 04 RX-7 is now almost fully developed. The engine/ecu program has been at 100%, the development has been there and now the shocks are at 100%...oh ya, the driver NEVER settles. How often do you know of a driver making changes inbetween qualifying and the race...WHEN THEY ARE ON POLE? Happens 90% of the time in his world. 5 track records right now. How many would he have if someone decided to build a York-level E36 - and then drove it like him? Who knows...but there are just no apples to compare with right now.

Comment 3. GREAT QUESTION - and this is the real issue. I personally would love to try and shove some genies back in the bottle but it just doesn't seem possible. I think doing some of that for 2007 would be fine...but what do we owe the members who invested and the businesses who designed products for a set of rules? Can everyone count on SOME SORT of rule stability? I would hope so but it is a fine line between that and reversing a 'mistake'...and who is to say it really was a mistake?

I am on the Spec Miata Advisory Board as well. I just voted yes to clarify a rule that will contain costs. Guess what? It's gonna cost me about $500. I will have to remove a trick piece that I bought that was legal, that now won't be. Am I happy about it? Nope, but I feel it is for the good of the class and it needed to be done.

The ITAC wants to control costs and creep, but there is only so much that can be done. Having said that, if 500 letters came in requesting that the CPU rule be tightened up, I would think somebody would have to take a serious look at that.

Sorry for the ramble!

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by 2Many Z's:
I still see the solution as a simple one.

Just as an example, if one or two E-36's in particular are leaving the rest of the ITS class in the dust, while the rest of the pack is a mixture of E-36's, RX-7's, 240Z's, Integra's, etc that are having a real battle on their hands for their finishing positions, and those one or two dominant cars are using Motec while the rest of the E-36's aren't, then ban the Motec. Very simple.

[This message has been edited by 2Many Z's (edited June 01, 2005).]

With all due respect, no, it is not "very simple"

How do you know:
What heat cycle these fast guys are on?
What their suspension set up is?
Shocks?
Springs?
What the build of the motor is?
What the tune of the motor is?
What cam?
What compession?
What flywheel?
What gears?
What crankshaft?
What valves?
And on and on and on...

You simply can NOT look at one car, see it has an item that you suspect is making the car fast, and ban that part!

Without knowing ALL the variables, and without knowing the cars legality (sorry if anybody takes offense, I am not implying anything) you simply can't draw such sweeping conclusions, and ban a product that a lot of guys spent huge sums of cash and time on!

If you want to know what the Motec is worth, you need to research it with builders, or build it yourself. Then build one without. I am sure that Motec might allow the optimization of certain parameters, so a controlled back to back flywheel HP test is the only way to really know.

And......this is the REAL crux of the matter...if you ban Motec to slow down the fast guys.....won't banning Motec ALSO slow down the other guys?????

And isn't the point to bring the big dogs back into the pack??

Banning Motec aint the answer....



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Bill Miller]

It should not cost $40k+ to be competitive in ITS. How does the ITAC, with all our help, propose to lower costs and rules creep in IT.


Ed,

I can't ever recall anyone on the ITAC speaking about lowering costs in IT. In fact, I don't think it's part of their charge. As Kirk, and many others, have pointed out, there is no way to control how much someone spends. Back before threaded-body shocks were allowed, people were having the threads turned off Penskes/Ohlins/Konis/etc. and running them. There was talk here, not too long ago, about not allowing AWD cars, because someone would build a 'wet' car and a 'dry' car, and bring them both to the track.

One large part of this problem, was not having defined and documented performance parameters for each of the classes. And then a token effort is made to slow the car down (and from what Darin has said, one that no one on the ITAC thought was enough). It apparently wasn't enough, and now, it's going to be 'monitored' (probably for another year or two, as we all know how fast things happen). So, how many more IT folks will say "Hey, I can spend the same (or less), and run a SM, and at least have a chance."

I'm a little confused by your some of your comments though. You talk about how the 2nd gen RX7 holds track records in the NE, and is setting 'blistering' records this year. And then you go on to say that being able to do this qualifies as domination. So, I understand you to say that 2nd gen RX7's dominate ITS (at least in the NE).

And to admit that your car is not as developed as some of the big name cars, and then talk about how it's not as competitive due to the restrictor plate, is really disingenuous. You want a car that you don't have to develop and drive at the limit, yet you want to be competitive? You'll probably be happier w/ some kind of spec class then.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[ed325its]

I am not being disingenous. Please reread the post. I did not say that my specific car was not competitive with the front running cars due to the restrictor plate. I only related real world experience, as opposed to opinion and inuendo, that the restrictor plate has had an effect to reduce the torque of my E36. I was very clear that I was not trying to compare the performace of the #04 car to the performance of mine. They are clearly not prepared to the same level.

I am not aware the ITAC has specific a charge other than to advise the CRB on behalf of the IT community and promote the best interests of IT racers and the class. If the ITAC has been charged with specific goals perhaps they could be listed here so all will know how to help them meet their goals.

------------------Edited for spelling...
Ed Tisdale
#22 ITS '95 325is
Racing BMW's since 1984

[This message has been edited by ed325its (edited June 01, 2005).]

[ed325its]

Andy,

Comment 1 - Agreed, my only point is that I believe other cars also need to be monitored, in all classes.

Comment 2 - I understand your point, but can't say that I agree with your conclusion.

Comment 3 - With the newer cars having programmable ECU's I do not know how one would control, ban, or police the use on non-stock ECU's and programs. However, I do agree that this genie should be put back in the bottle.

Thank you for acknowledging that rules creep and cost control are an important issue in IT. This thread has really been hijacked and I will not contribute further to it's demise. See you at NHIS in June.

------------------
Ed Tisdale
#22 ITS '95 325is
Racing BMW's since 1984

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by ed325its:
If the ITAC has been charged with specific goals perhaps they could be listed here so all will know how to help them meet their goals.




The ITAC has formed a close working relationship with the CRB. We have earned their trust, and they ours. Through this relationship, we are working to make IT better in the future.

If adjustments need to be made, I don't think you'll see it taking "1-2 years"... We all went through the exercise of arguing about the performance of the BMW here many months ago, so it makes no sense to rehash it now... The ITAC and the CRB agreed to give the restrictors a try and to monitor the performance of the class... That's where we stand today... We'll just have to see how things go over the season to decide if anything further needs to be done...

Again, the ITAC's position is to advise, but the CRB has entrusted us with giving them GOOD advice... advice that they can work with... If they don't like what we've suggested, we discuss it and come to an agreement and a plan of action... That's how the restrictors got in place as opposed to weight... To this point, the CRB has accepted the majority of our "advice", and they continue to support the direction the committee has been taking...

It is our hope that the majority of you are satisfied with that direction as well. We can't make everyone happy, but we are trying to make the majority of you feel that this is the best class to race in...




------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
http://home.comcast.net/~djjordan/Web/DJ_AV1.jpg

[JeffYoung]

Why doesn't someone post a dyno result of a 325 before and after with the restrictor? Or are both sides afraid of what that might show?

[Knestis]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
... We can't make everyone happy, but we are trying to make the majority of you feel that this is the best class to race in...


I like to remember that one way to tell if a group has reached consensus, is that everybody is a little pissed off. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

K

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Knestis:
I like to remember that one way to tell if a group has reached consensus, is that everybody is a little pissed off. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

K



...and a successful negotiation takes place when everyone leaves something on the table.

G

[robits325is]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
...and a successful negotiation takes place when everyone leaves something on the table.

G

What about making competitive adjustments by region? After all, we are making National adjustments to fix Regional problems. Different tracks favor different cars.

Rob Driscoll

[Ron Earp]

National and Regional Adjustments?

That sounds extremely complicated and destined to fail. What happens with I take my Jensen Wheezy out of the SE, where in the SE I had a performance adjustment to reign in or give my car a chance? What happens when I get it up to LRP - can I lose my adjustment?

Or, even worse, if you were a MARS racer with extra weight to slow down your ThingAMyBob GT because you are whomping all over the field and you go race the SAARC in Atlanta? Can you ditch your weight? And in doing so you smoke the field and win the SAARC? Boy, that might get you run out of town with torches and pitchforks.

Who would keep track of indivdual adjustments per region? What if I made one up? "Yeah, in the Southeast they said I could run the factory superceeded R cam on the GTs running down there based on a factory TSB printed in 1987 that I don't have to have on my person because it was mandated by the SCCA" Zoom, off I go.

Farfetched? Yeah, well I thought people advertising IT cars with lightened flywheels, illegal braces from convertibles, large throttle bodies, and illegal subframe connectors was farfetched too but truth is stranger than fiction.

That process you suggested sounds like a nightmare. The current system seems to work pretty well, albeit slowly but slowly is safe so things don't get crazy in a hurry. Now, was that ECU rule a slow change?

------------------
Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS

[Edited to reflect current events]

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited June 02, 2005).]

[mlytle]

i am not in favor of regional adjustments, but they can work. the sailboat racing community has been doing it for years. it is call "phrf". different boats rate different time allowances based on how well they do in a particular region. ratings are reviewed regularly. more effort required to make it work? oh yeah, but it does work.

i am obviously not in favor of regional adjustments because i race a bmw in marrs, and am not the bmw that kick's everyone elses butt. an adjustment to accomodate the winning bmw would kill the rest of us. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

Well, I'd offer my ideas, but it seems as though a few people think I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.
Just one more reason that I'll most likely never run in IT again. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/rolleyes.gif

[Mark H]

This weekend at CMP was our first IT race in a VW B car!!!
Now we will have to go to the ARRC championship to have more fun. This group is a blast, lots of cars, a chance to win in any type of car and pit stops!
With a front drive car, rain, and a good team even a B car can qualify up with the BMW and RX-7 cars??
But don't go out on slicks with a wet track and HOPE it dries out. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/eek.gif
Thankfuly my teamate peddeled the car during his stint to save a good finish after I messed up the first hr.
See Yall @ the RA ECR!!!!

[Ron Earp]

This is related to the original thread?

[tom_sprecher]

Maybe the CMP part, but I think what Mark was trying to say is that his first foray into IT was a blast no matter what the odds may be.

[Ron Earp]

Ah, I got it now!

[tom_sprecher]

Ron, I saw your car at CMP (skull and cross bones, I think?) and meant to stop by and say hello but between a CFC car and an ITB car there simply was not enough time. Maybe I'll see you at RA in July.

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Tom Sprecher
Team SuperTech

[Ron Earp]

Sorry we missed you Tom. We weren't there long, left early Sunday morning. Our LSD packed up and we barely had traction to one wheel, and, the clutch we think is letting go too. Best Jeff could manage was a 2:05 and that car is capable of much more than that, much more. Has great brakes and strong engine, but with no way to put the power down (wheel spin at 95mph in a straight line) it was a suffering ride.

Next time I am out it will be in the Jensen - I'm laying off racing until she is done as these other cars have been distractions.


------------------
Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS
Email: "rlearp at gt40s.com"