A Class Above S One Day?

[Ron Earp]

What are the chances of IT adopting a higher hp class above S, say an ITT? In a few years there will be a lot of new model cars ripe for IT. In fact, there are a large number of them right now that are ripe – 300z, SHO, Mustangs, etc. but they’d likey be turned down for S based on stock horsepower. Seems like to me a class that is above S is going to be warranted or else we’re all going to be stuck driving 30, 20, and 15 year old cars based on “performance potential” of newer cars being too high for S.

Here are just a few cars that come to mind, doubtless I’ve missed a lot but I think you get the idea. Specs might not be perfect since I’m doing this from my aging memory, but I think it is in the ballpark. Maybe this new class could have some 4wd cars too????

BMW 328, 198hp
BMW 330, 215hp
BMW 330, 224hp
BMW M3, 95-99, 240hp
BMW M Coupe, 99-01, 240hp
Nissan 300z, 90s model, 222hp
Ford Contour SVT, 200hp
Ford Taurus SHO, 89-93, 225hp
Ford Focus SVT, 170hp
Ford Mustang V8 5.0L, 87-95, 215-225hp
Ford Mustang V8, 4.6L, 96-97, 225hp
Ford Mustang V6, 1999-2004, 190hp
Porsche 968, 240hp
Honda S2000, 240hp
Acura RSX-S, 200hp
Mitsubishi Eclipse, ~2000-2004, 200hp
Nissan Maxima, Current, 255hp
Chevy Camaro, V6 205hp, V8 275hp and up
Dodge Stealth, 3000GT, NA V6, 222hp
Toyota Supra, 93-98, NA, I6 220hp
Porsche 928, early years, 217hp

And many more but I think this is enough for now. What do folks think, would it happen one day?


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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited May 19, 2005).]

[Bill Miller]

Ron,

I agree that a class above ITS is needed. I believe it's actually being worked on. As a side note, the V8 Mustangs and Camaros already run in AS.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Knestis]

Some regions have run ITGT in the past but as Bill points out, AS kind of chipped away at the need for that.

The only concern I'd have with something like that is the speed potential of the cars vs. IT standards for safety equipment. There's a point where we just can't handle the kinetic energy with the technology we have access to.

T1 is already past that point, I think.

K

[Ron Earp]

I know AS has the V8 pony cars, but, AS has specs for engines that are above IT prep by a good margin. For example, on the Ford SB they allow GT40P head castings, 10.3:1 compression, 0.500" lift cam, Crower/Eagle rods, solid lifters, any steel springs, Motorsport crank, Motorsport block, nice valve job with cut stem, etc. This is a receipe for a 7000+ RPM V8 motor that FAR exceeds what can be done with the same size in IT specs.

Based on this, I still feel there is a place in IT for IT prepped pony cars that doesn't require this sort of monetary commitment. AS seems to handle to speed fine and I have seen more than a few AS cars with cages that I wouldn't drive, but maybe I've been looking at the wrong ones. Still someone feels they are okay.

But, the kinetic energy situation is different. If these cars end up being much heavier and a lot faster than what is out there then that could be a problem. My guess would be that it wouldn't be that much faster, but I need to check some AS lap times before commenting.

But as far as cars and a need for a higher IT class, folks are really interested in that and doing it? That is great to hear, there are and will be lots of cars that do not fit into the current IT classification.

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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS

[joeg]

Yes. Unfortunately, a lot of those cars on the list are kinetic porky pigs, including my SVT Focus.

If only that car was 600lbs lighter...

[Ron Earp]

Many of those cars have a lot of weight to lose though since they have a lot of luxury features like power seats, power everything else, etc. I know the BMW power seat chuck in the E36 is good for like 110lbs, particularily the Evader seats that were optional on the M3s. I imagine the Supra, z, and other high-end luxury/sport cars are the same.

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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS

[Bill Miller]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Based on this, I still feel there is a place in IT for IT prepped pony cars that doesn't require this sort of monetary commitment.</font>

Ron,

Check the ads in the back of SportsCar for AS cars. Most can be had for under $25k (including Runoffs winners), and a lot can be had for ~$15k. That's right in line w/ the cost of a good ITA car. One of the reasons the AS guys use the parts that they use, is because it's actually cheaper than using stock stuff (see the recent bit in FasTrack re: AS brakes). I really doubt you could build an IT-prep V8 Mustang/Camaro that would be competitive in a class above ITS, for anywhere near what you'll spend on an AS car (and the AS car will be faster).

While I agree that we need a class above ITS, we don't need to worry about putting the V8 Mustangs/Camaros in it. The cars will be slower, and cost more, than AS cars.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[JeffYoung]

Bill, good points.

I do think Ron's point on the ponies is this (we have discussed it often). AS aside, isn't there room in ITS for 200 hp pony cars? Meaning, early Camaro and Mustang V8s (the the 160-200 hp 302 and 305) and late V6s (also around 200 hp). Why ONLY in AS when they appear to be a pretty good power/weight fit in ITS at around 3100 or 3200 lbs?

The lower hp potential and velocity should reduce the kinetic concerns of Mr. Knestis...I like the sound of that....and I think these would be a fantastic addition to ITS fiels in that I bet there would be a significant number of them built. AS is pretty undersubscribed here in my area of the SE- don't know what it is like where you are. Let the ponys in ITS and I bet we see 3-4 such cars at least in each division first year.

The V6 Mustang is already classified in ITS, with less HP than the E36, smaller brakes, and has a specified weight 250 pounds more than the E36. Is it any wonder why I've yet to hear of anyone actually putting a V6 Mustang in ITS? 3100lbs on those brakes is a bit much.
There's no reason the SSB V6 Camaro's couldn't run in ITS (with a reasonable weight).

And, you guys need to go look at some results.... some of these E36's are posting fast race lap speeds that are already in the A/S and E/P range, seems that restrictor didn't slow them down much. Gee, maybe they should consider moving that car up a class?

Ron, some of those cars you have listed are already classed in Touring, and are probably going to be adopted into the possible new Production classes. And some of those cars are already competing in ITE where the class is available. There's a Z32 300ZX on Ebay as we type in TX that has been competing in ITE.

[jhooten]

ITE in SWDiv is a Under 3l class. That would leave out a lot of the cars listed in our E. Also I would have to go back and confirm the results, to be certain, but I seem to remember ITB/C cars turning faster lap times on the short course at TWS than the SSB V6 Cambirds which would end up in ITS. The conversion from SS to IT trim is not going to add much to the performance of that over weight under powered pig.

[bldn10]

I think a cool class would be ITX: above ITS, wings, slammed, large diameter wheels, but otherwise IT specs. Think World Challenge Cup Lite. That's what the public wants to see and many would love to race.

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Bill Denton
87/89 ITS RX-7
02 Audi TT225QC
95 Tahoe
Memphis

[Banzai240]

I think you are more likely to see the cars in question in the new "Production" classes (which, incidently, are not likely to carry the "production" name at all when they are finally reality, based on what I've been told...)

We've talked about this a LOT and I've even gone so far as to put together a pretty healthy list of cars that would fit, including some that exist in ITS today but really would be a better fit in a higher class at a lessor weight...

After much discussion, it's usually concluded that, in a choice between IT rules and the new "D-Prod" (Street Touring... Club Touring, whatever they decide to call it...), most of these cars would choose to go to the new format...

It's not out of the question, and there is support for the idea, but I don't think you'll see it soon... You never know, however...

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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
http://home.comcast.net/~djjordan/Web/DJ_AV1.jpg

[JeffYoung]

Darrin, me a couple of guys I race/build cars with are extremely interested in the "new" D Production, for this reason. We are either going to try and build a balls to the wall, maxed out, competitive ITS car to make a run at the ARRC in a few years, or we are going to wait and see if D Prod is a reasoanable class from a prep perspective, and from a class subscription perspective.

What can you tell us about D Prod? When will it be unveiled? Level of prep? National or regional? Cars involved?

Thanks a bunch.

[Ron Earp]

I'm obviously the newbie here, but I LIKE Improved Touring.

IT has big fields, have a great group of people, and I'd rather see an ITT/ITX or whatever you want to call it than the standard answer of "That car is in Prod, go run Prod".

My point is - unless IT figures out a way to get some of these cars in, many of which have higher hp numbers stock than any ITS car has ever had, then we'll be driving very old cars forever. Horsepower figures go up every year - modern V6 cars have more hp than the V8 cars in the 80s and some in the early 90s.

Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned pony cars since that sort of distracted folks, the main thing I was bringing up was that modern cars have more hp than what we have now and we need a way to bring modern cars into IT.

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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited May 20, 2005).]

[bhudson]

All it takes to get a new class is to start locally, then build interest. That's exactly how IT started in the first place. Get a few of your friends together, come up with a reasonable set of rules and list of cars and a commitment to build them. Then approach your local region with your proposal. Be willing to accept that the region may ask that your concept run in Super Production until the participation increases. If the region sees new class potential (and with it more entries to the events) you may get your wish.

It won't be easy, but nothing good ever is.

Bob Hudson, Atlanta Region

[ITAMiata]

I really like this idea. I was thinking about this a few weeks ago (my ITA Miata is 15 years old already) and wondered what we would all do as these cars die off. A new IT class would be great. Plus, more rwd cars that way.

Bill
ITA Miata #33

[Knestis]

Originally posted by bldn10:
... Think World Challenge Cup Lite. ...

http://www.it2.evaluand.com/images/mt2civicSM.jpg

It's been awhile. Take a look at...

http://www.it2.evaluand.com/compare.php3

K



[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited May 20, 2005).]

[pgipson]

We run a class called RS (radial sport). No minimum weight, NA 2 rotor or 4 cylinder only, engine and transmission (externals) must match make of car. Must run on Dot-R tires. Can have a wing.

I am thinking about a 240SX or a lightweight 2nd gen RX7 for this. We already have a winged Honda Civic Si and some other cars in this class.

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Spec RX7 #11
Scottsdale AZ

[Ron Earp]

Those are some cool concepts and would definitely attract some of the NASA crowd that doesn't do SCCA or some of the young sport compact guys. I've spoken to more than a few now that have seen me taking race tires in and out of shops and trailering the car around. My reply of "You can't race that" doesn't make them happy.

But it doesn't look like it really handles or does much for my original question of getting higher hp rear wheel drive cars that are out into IT.

But, if it gets more modern cars in IT and younger people too, then I think it is a step in the right direction. It is sort of sad that the "young" guys in SCCA are typically in their 30s (there are younger ones, but generally they are brought up in racing families, not just average Joe off the street trying to race).

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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited May 21, 2005).]

[bldn10]

K, that's what I'm talking about!

Sorry for confusing Grand Am Cup and World Challenge Touring - and isn't that part of the problem w/ sports car racing in the U.S.?



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Bill Denton
87/89 ITS RX-7
02 Audi TT225QC
95 Tahoe
Memphis

[Bryan Watts]

Originally posted by bldn10:
Sorry for confusing Grand Am Cup and World Challenge Touring - and isn't that part of the problem w/ sports car racing in the U.S.?

How is it a problem is both series have full fields of cars and sponsors? Further, both series have VERY different racing types...one being endurance and the other sprint. Many drivers have driven or currently drive in both series. I think competition and multiple series with varying race styles and car prep is great for the sport so long as the sponsors and teams continue to show up for both.



[This message has been edited by Bryan Watts (edited May 23, 2005).]