Isaac Focus Group, Part II

[gsbaker]

This is the last time for this subject, honest. I don’t want to wear out the welcome mat here, but we have always found the IT.com forums to be the perfect combination of smart racers and budgets. Dumb at any price is of no value, and smart and rich is OT for this subject.

We would like your input on two things involving a new product we are going to add to the line: the price and the name. The product is a head and neck restraint that serves the budget-conscious racer--the one who is willing to pay for "good," but doesn’t feel the need for "best." We had some good ideas on pricing from a thread posted here last fall, but that was purely hypothetical. This is the real product. We crash tested it earlier this week and are planning a press release.

Since you cannot comment on something until you know about it, lets begin with a description (I may have a chance to post photos later).


Description

Because a large component of the cost of the original Isaac system is in the damper assembly, this new product uses mil spec parachute webbing. This is not the dog leash material made in China that you find in some designs. This is what a Special Ops guy uses when he drives an ATV out the back of a C-130 (yes, they actually do that now). If it’s good enough for him, it’s good enough for racers.

That’s the only major change. The bits and pieces at the end of the webbing are different, of course, but it all still connects to the same helmet mount at the top, and the same style roller assembly at the belt.

Because webbing does not control the velocity (and kinetic energy) as well as a damper, it does not work as well as an Isaac system, which is what we expected. However, because there is much less webbing than in the body-style products such as the Hutchins, Simpson, etc., it is a more rigid restraint that catches the head earlier in the crash pulse, when the energy is relatively low.

The theory and the math predicted a performance better than other webbing products but, to be frank, it performed much better than expected. It is the third best product ever tested at this lab, bested only by the original Isaac system and the HANS device.

Let’s throw in a few FAQ-type questions:

How about side loads? It won’t work worth a hoot, just like everything else out there except the original Isaac system.

Do I have to keep it tight? Yes, but you don’t have to preload your neck, just take out the slack.

Do the straps have to be replaced periodically? Yes, it will have to be sent back for replacement. We are checking for a "ruling" on this, so at this time we do not know the frequency.

Is it, or can it be, SFI certified? Not at this price.


Price

Last fall’s thread had readers here suggesting prices ranging from $149 (fat chance) to $495. Given the above description, what do you think now for a version that performs at this level and uses the bottom-of-the line helmet pin?


Names:

What do you think? The following have been suggested:

The Isaac Link
The Isaac ParaLink
The Isaac Lite
The Isaac Geronimo http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

I’m out for most of the rest of the day, but we’ll try to find some pics.

Thanks everyone.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[mustanghammer]

Name:

Issac Paralink

Or

Issac Link

The Isaac Geronimo.....I don't know, it sounds like I am jumping out of something. Of course you could offer the Masten Gregory signature edition Issac Geronimo...I understand he jumped out of a few crashing cars in his day!

Price:

The cost of two Hoosier tires - or LESS - for my IT7 racer works for me



------------------
Scott Peterson
KC Region
IT7 #17

[ddewhurst]

***what do you think now for a version that performs at this level and uses the bottom-of-the line helmet pin?***

Why would you have a desire to attach the Issac name to a dog leash (slack is controled by the owner the same as slack in a dog leash) that is considerable less effective than the Issac? Over past time there have been many words thrown towards the second rate leash type devices.

***How about side loads? It won’t work worth a hoot,***

***it does not work as well as an Isaac system,***

If the company were mine I would seperate this new low cost devise from the Issac name.

Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David

[ddewhurst]

I could blame computer......... http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/redface.gif

[This message has been edited by ddewhurst (edited May 07, 2005).]

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by mustanghammer:
...the Masten Gregory signature edition Issac Geronimo...I understand he jumped out of a few crashing cars in his day!

I like the spirit, Scott. Geronimo is funny, but I'm not sure everyone would make the connection.


Price:

The cost of two Hoosier tires - or LESS - for my IT7 racer works for me.

Which is what, $200 each? We are convinced we must get this under $500.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

Dave,

I hear ya, but this product is no slouch. And the customer can use the same helmet mounts to upgrade later.

Think of it as an entry level model, like a 3-series Bimmer or a C-class Benz.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

Some quick pics with no editing (sorry for the 700K size of the first two).

Here is a really poor lateral shot of the entire set up, on the bench:

http://www.isaacdirect.com/images/Product/...ink/Lateral.JPG (http://www.isaacdirect.com/images/Product/Link/Lateral.JPG)


Here is the yoke that attaches to the helmet and receives the top end of the webbing:

http://www.isaacdirect.com/images/Product/...t/Link/Yoke.JPG (http://www.isaacdirect.com/images/Product/Link/Yoke.JPG)


Here is a smaller shot of the belt connection:

http://www.isaacdirect.com/images/Product/Link/BeltMount.JPG


And here is our happy customer after testing:

http://www.isaacdirect.com/images/Humor/HeadWorthKeeping.JPG


BTW, this was the same helmet we tested when last at this lab.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[Geo]

How about the Kepler?


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[lateapex911]

Gregg,,,I shot you an email, and in it I suggested the Isaac Ripcord...

http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

I see your parallel to BMW and MB, and it's a good one. Be sure that your web design is better philosophically, theoreticaly, functionaly, and with better build quality than the rest, and you will be fine.

So far, I think you have all four points covered.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[itracer]

Just a couple comments:

Paralink - sounds like a condition you don't want to be in (paraplegic)

Jake - Ripcord sounds like it would hurt!

I like Isaac Link best. But if I am going to save up $500, I will spring the rest of the $$ for the full system.



------------------
Jason
ITB 17 (NER SCCA)
VW Scirocco

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Geo:
How about the Kepler?

Ooh, good one George. I had to look that up. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif



------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[Knestis]

How about (in no particular order)...

Strap-o-Matic
Noodle Bridle
No-Twang 2K5
Retain-Ur-Brain
NogginThong
That Isaac Strap Thingie
Brain Bra

K

[Knestis]

Ooops.

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited May 07, 2005).]

[gsbaker]

Kirk,

Damn, that's funny.


Jason,

Good points. Thanks.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[tderonne]

I know the retail cost of either device isn't totally about the material cost, but the percieved cost of the shocks could be interpreted as the difference between the two.

Not sure if that matters, but might be something to consider.

[lateapex911]

Well, continuing on the concept that racers equate money to tires, in much the same way college students equate money with the price of pizza and beer, ("How much?? I can get a 6 of Coors and two large meat lover pizzas for that $!") I would think that a "starter" H&NR system should run less than teh cost of two tires, which are about $150 ea.

So, if it's priced at $295, would it sell well, if it performed as stated?



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by tderonne:
I know the retail cost of either device isn't totally about the material cost, but the percieved cost of the shocks could be interpreted as the difference between the two.

Not sure if that matters, but might be something to consider.

Good point. The shocks make a huge difference in performance, especially for lateral impacts where straps don't work (you can't push on a rope), and the Isaac system is unique in that regard. Plus, shocks are tricky to tune. Trust me, I did the math.

But a lot of people don't get it. Sometimes you have to keep it simple.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Well, continuing on the concept that racers equate money to tires, in much the same way college students equate money with the price of pizza and beer, ("How much?? I can get a 6 of Coors and two large meat lover pizzas for that $!") I would think that a "starter" H&NR system should run less than teh cost of two tires, which are about $150 ea.

So, if it's priced at $295, would it sell well, if it performed as stated?

We'll know soon. The press release will be out within 24 hrs.

It will be the Isaac Link, priced at $295.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[racer14itc]

A little off topic here, but this weekend a fellow racer came over to visit and saw the ISAAC in my Scirocco. He hadn't ever heard of it but was VERY interested in it, but the price was a bit steep. He knew he should have some sort of H&N device, and knew about the HANS but the price of it was a deterrent as well.

Then I mentioned the forthcoming ISAAC (insert name here...I didn't know it at the time) that used the straps,performed as well as a HANS and would only cost around $300-400. He was SOLD instantly and wanted to know where he could get one. I pointed him to the website and he rushed home to check it out.

Gregg, I think you'll have a huge winner here.

MC

------------------
Mark Coffin
#14 GP BSI Racing/Action Digital/Airborn Coatings/Krispy Kreme VW Scirocco

[gsbaker]

Mark,

You friend is a perfect example of our target segment for the Link product. It is very interesting how this market has changed over the past 3 years.

At first, racers felt all head and neck restraints were the same, or that any one was adequate. That's why we estimate 5,000 Hutchens devices were sold--why buy an expensive H&N restraint when you can get a cheap one, right?

But then we noticed orders coming from Hutchens users as racers began to appreciate the difference in products.

Until we tested the Link last week, there was nothing at the low end that racers could call "good"--not "best", but good. We don't like the fact that it offers no lateral protection, but then neither does a HANS.

With the new Link model plus side nets, the racer will have a very good package, out the door for well under $500. Not bad.

Here's the revised relative performance chart:

http://www.isaacdirect.com/html/chart.html

The lower end of the range is where we tested, with the slack taken out of the webbing (but not preloaded). We are assuming that if you loosen it up the loads can double.

This is a very conservative chart. The webbing products only perform at the low end if they are heavily preloaded. The way most racers use them they will come in at around 800# vs. 400# for our test.

Either way you slice it the Link was impressive. I was pleasantly surprised.

(If you're lurking Bill or Vaughan, feel free to throw in any observations.)

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[snk328is]

I think this low cost H&N restraint is a great idea!

I just hope that sanctioning bodies don't begin mandating the use of SFI certified restraints... That would be the only concern that I have at this point.

I'd hate to spend the money on an H&N restraint, only to find out that starting with the 2006 season, I have to shell out for a full blown SFI certified system...

[924Guy]

No question about it, the SFI part is what makes me wince, the better I understand it. Added cost, no improvement in performance. Pure licensing fees, pure overhead.

Regarding using the Link - I'd feel comfortable using it, despite the simpler less elaborate design and reduced cost. Of course, I've already got my ISAAC and love it, happy to have it. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif But it's nice to finally have options. The test results were very nice and reassuring indeed. But it makes sense that the Link would do better by far than the other webbing systems, given the tether length...

------------------
Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITB/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com

[RSTPerformance]

Originally posted by snk328is:
I just hope that sanctioning bodies don't begin mandating the use of SFI certified restraints... That would be the only concern that I have at this point.

I'd hate to spend the money on an H&N restraint, only to find out that starting with the 2006 season, I have to shell out for a full blown SFI certified system...


Is there an upgrade option??? If SCCA does mandate an SFI rated system then I would have waisted $300.00 Since the system uses 1/2 the same parts is it possible to have the upgrade if you pay the diff + shipping?? I think this is another way that those that cannot afford the original Issac system could get into it. Buy the strap version first then upgrade later. In fact I bet if you kept a list of everyone that purchased a strap version then 1 year later send them a letter explaining (again) what is better about the original Issac and offered them an upgrade option several would take that opportunity. By spreading out the cost and giving them the chance to get "hooked" on a head and neck restraint you would do good for yourself (by making money on upgrades) and for the racers because we would be safer.

Stephen

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
Is there an upgrade option???...

Stephen

Company policy will not permit me to comment on products that are not through final design. So, technically, as of this moment the answer is "No", there is no "upgrade" to an SFI version for the Link model. (Get it? http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif)

However, the Link design was not the only thing we hit last week.

http://www.isaacdirect.com/images/Video/WSU149.AVI

See happy dummy above. (Get it? http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif)

Don't forget, we purposely design every Isaac system to be modular. Absent some huge change in design philosophy (which no one envisions) you should never be stuck with an obsolete design.

I'm with Vaughan; the SFI design is more costly and riskier. We have to put that in the price somewhere.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[spnkzss]

This year is the first year I went with any kind of H&N restraint. Mind you I went with a collar, it was still better than nothing. My question about the "Link" is, since there is no side to side protection, would the use of the "Link" and my horse collar be better than just the "Link"?

The main reason I'm taking this route is I'm waiting to hear what SCCA has to say about SFI. I want to take it slow, and don't want to spend $1000. Not right now. Some may argue that how can you put a price on H&N safety, and I agree, but people have been doing this for years with out anything. I kind of equate it to kids now a days REQUIRED to wear a helmet and pads when they ride a bike. Good idea, but I used to do stupid things on a bike without any protection and I turned out alright...... *twitch twitch*

Spanky
#03 ITC '90 Honda Civic WDCR

[Racerlinn]

I'm in a similar situation as Spanky. I would love to get something like this. Rather than a horseshoe, I'm curious as to thoughts of it's combined use with net style side head restraints such as the sprint car style cage nets I have installed (similar to http://www.saferacer.com/gspcarwinet.html)

------------------
Steve Linn
'92 ITA Sentra SE-R
www.indyscca.org (http://www.indyscca.org)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v366/Racerlinn/SideSER2.jpg

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by spnkzss:
...The main reason I'm taking this route is I'm waiting to hear what SCCA has to say about SFI....Some may argue that how can you put a price on H&N safety, and I agree, but people have been doing this for years with out anything. I kind of equate it to kids now a days REQUIRED to wear a helmet and pads when they ride a bike. Good idea, but I used to do stupid things on a bike without any protection and I turned out alright...... *twitch twitch*

Spanky,

That's a good summary.

I'm with you in that regard. It's too easy to go overboard. Do you really need a $1,000 H&N restraint, on top of another $1,000 of safety gear, to take your 150hp car onto the track twice a year? If you are doing hardcore W2W, okay, maybe. If you're doing parade laps in a vintage racer, probably not.

Some level of risk is acceptable in life, but we should have a choice of how much insurance we buy, within reason.

BTW, there are two sides to the SFI coin: the performance criteria, and the SFI agreement that must be entered into to receive certification. The last one is our problem, but the first one is easy. The Link design will pass the test.

If sanctioning bodies were smart they would adopt the SFI performance criteria, but not require certification proper. This would save members a small fortune, and the Link model would be 1/3 the cost of everything else in that performance range. We can get the Link model certified, but the cost would probably double.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Racerlinn:
I'm in a similar situation as Spanky. I would love to get something like this. Rather than a horseshoe, I'm curious as to thoughts of it's combined use with net style side head restraints such as the sprint car style cage nets I have installed (similar to http://www.saferacer.com/gspcarwinet.html)


That is a great combination, dollarwise--a Link and a right-side net for under $400. The drawback is that there is more stuff to futz with, but at least you don't have the cost, and visibiliy issues, of a seat head surround.

The original, damper-based Isaac design appears to reduce lateral loads by about 50%, so keep that in mind as you add up the cost of bits and pieces.

Collars, BTW, help with neck fatigue, but don't add anything when bones get broken--they only work in compression.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

(Here is the PR that went out today)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Isaac® Link™ Model

Orlando, Florida USA – May 9, 2005 – Isaac, LLC announces the addition of the new Link™ model to its line of head and neck restraint systems.

Designed to reduce head and neck injuries among cost-conscious amateur racers, the $295 Isaac® Link™ is the third best product ever tested*, after the original Isaac® system and the HANS® device, reducing head loads by more than fifty percent--a record for low-cost products.

The Link™ uses high strength, military-grade parachute webbing. If it’s good enough for U.S. Special Forces, it’s good enough for racers.

With fifty percent of all racing fatalities consisting of head and neck injuries and the majority of racers being cost-conscious amateurs, the Isaac® Link™ is expected to be a major contribution to motorsports safety. Said Craig D. Foster, WSU lab engineer and co-author of SAE paper 2002-01-3304, Sled Test Evaluation of Racecar Head/Neck Restraints, "You guys are on to something."

As with all Isaac® products, the Link™ model is not worn so it does not hinder rapid egress in emergencies. It fits any driver with any helmet in any car. It is completely modular so the driver can upgrade to more advanced Isaac® versions going all the way to custom-made, damper-based titanium models which offer theoretical protection to impacts as high as 150Gs. With the Link™ addition, there are now a record 72 possible ways to configure an Isaac® system given the long list of options.

Inventory is expected to be ready for shipment by mid July 2005. Drivers placing orders prior to finished inventory will receive a $50 discount in consideration of their patience.

Isaac, LLC is based in Orlando, Florida. It specializes in protection from head and neck injuries and is the only such firm to offer a complete product line to racers.

CONTACT:
Customer Service
Isaac, LLC
1800 Pembrook Drive, Suite 300
Orlando, FL 32810
Telephone: 407/667-3414
E-mail: [email protected]
Web site: www.isaacdirect.com (http://www.isaacdirect.com)

*Laboratory crash testing was conducted at the Wayne State University Bioengineering Center, which has tested every head and neck restraint available to racers.

Note: If you wish to be removed from our mailing list, simply reply to this e-mail with the word “remove” in the subject line.

HANS® is a registered trademark of Hubbard/Downing, Inc.

# # #

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
Spanky,

That's a good summary.

BTW, there are two sides to the SFI coin: the performance criteria, and the SFI agreement that must be entered into to receive certification. The last one is our problem, but the first one is easy. The Link design will pass the test.



Uh oh....this question will likely end in an answer that will have me fuming at backdoor politics, payoffs and raketeering, but I'll forgo common sense and ask anyway...

What is the agreement you have to sign, and why is it an issue?

Second, in your scenario of sanctioning bodies requiring units that exceed the requirement, but need not be certified, what methods of proof can you envision being used to ensure the devices are indeed exceeding the requirements?

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
What is the agreement you have to sign, and why is it an issue?

In general it's not bad, but there are some problems with the details. For example, if someone wants to challenge our test results by re-testing, fine, it's a free country. But don't send us the bill.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Second, in your scenario of sanctioning bodies requiring units that exceed the requirement, but need not be certified, what methods of proof can you envision being used to ensure the devices are indeed exceeding the requirements?</font>

That's easy. Just use the SFI criteria for maximum loads.

SFI doesn't do the testing. SFI requires the testing be done at the Delphi lab in Ohio (or an equivalent). So contract with the Delphi lab and submit the results to the sanctioning body. Easy.

Or, easier still, manufacturers could post their test results on a neutral Web site for all sanctioning bodies to see.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[Mark LaBarre]

In honor of all of Greg's work with this, I vote for calling it the "G" string, by Isaac.

[Wayne]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
Absent some huge change in design philosophy (which no one envisions)...
Having been in the Engineering/marketing/manufacturing world for quite a number of years, statements like that make me break out in a cold sweat... http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

Wayne

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Mark LaBarre:
In honor of all of Greg's work with this, I vote for calling it the "G" string, by Isaac.

That should compliment Kirk's offering of "The Brain Bra." http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

If we keep this up we can get it banned in certain locales.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Wayne:
Having been in the Engineering/marketing/manufacturing world for quite a number of years, statements like that make me break out in a cold sweat... http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

Wayne



Hey, that's nothing. Wait until you see our new 8-track design. It's really groovy, man!

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[Marcus Miller]

Greg, don't forget to update the online ordering form http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

Marcus

[Catch22]

I absolutely, positively can't believe you aren't calling this thing the "Strap-On."



------------------
#22 ITC Honda Civic
3rd Place 2004 ARRC
1st Place 2004 ARRC Enduro
www.motorpride.com/Catch22 (http://www.motorpride.com/Catch22)

[gsbaker]

Marcus,

The Webmaster is working on the order form. In the meantime, you can just go to the Comments section and say you want the Link model.

We are about 8 weeks from shipping because it will take that long to run all the parts through the vendors and build finished inventory. Racers who order before then will get another $50 off ($245 total).

Early orders will help us get a feel for the build quantity, and we are happy to reward the racer for their patience.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Catch22:
I absolutely, positively can't believe you aren't calling this thing the "Strap-On."

If I weren't acting in an official company capacity on this thread... http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif



------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[nicksofast12]

test

[Chris Wire]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
If I weren't acting in an official company capacity on this thread... http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif


You'd what????

I really like the Strap On & G-String; both very catchy!

I was thinking the Isaac Lynx (since there are 2 straps).

Or if the drifter crowd evar needz wun u cood call it the IzAac LyNkZZ YO!

Greg, best of luck with the new product. Budget minded racers everywhere should be grateful.



------------------
Chris Wire
Team Wire Racing
ITS Mazda RX7 #35
[email protected]

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Chris Wire:
...Or if the drifter crowd evar needz wun u cood call it the IzAac LyNkZZ YO!

Greg, best of luck with the new product...

Chris,

Thanks, YO! http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif



------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Marcus Miller:
Greg, don't forget to update the online ordering form http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

Marcus

Done|



------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com