OT: Small car or big car for first time driver

[Wayne]

Been looking for a starter car (street car) for my soon to be driving teenager. Only want to spend 2-4K for this first car. Been looking at older BMW's, 240sx type cars thinking that with some work he could use them for track days should he be interested in that. He is also 6'4" now at 15 years old, and still growing strong. Leg room is important.

However, my thinking has been colored a bit lately by input from some of the guys who I workout with. They are all fire fighters, emt's etc. To a person, they refuse to drive small cars themselves, and refuse to allow their spouse/kids to own small cars.

As you can imagine they have seen the ugly side of vehicle accidents, and their theory is the more mass the better. Even better is if you can provide more mass w/ airbags.

They don't make a lot of money at these professions so you don't see them buying new lexus or suburban suv's for their kids. They buy older, larger vehicles. At a minimum the car has lap/shoulder belts of course, and if it also has drivers side airbag that's a bonus.

What do you guys think about this issue? What will your teenager drive when they first start out?

BTW, I realize that driver training (beyond the minimum) is a good investment. But even the most skilled driver in the world can't avoid the other idiots on the road 100% of the time.

Wayne

[x-ring]

I was thinking F150 2WD with the smallest 6-cylinder engine they make.

If they still sold the old type manual transmission (granny low, two seconds per shift) it would be even better.

Hey, I was 16 once too.

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Ty Till
#16 ITS
Rocky Mountain Division

[dave parker]

Wayne
I second what Ty said. Make sure the thing looks hideous too so that his friends won't ride with him.
I read in one of the insurance rags that a teenaged driver is distracted 25% more for every additional person in the car with them.

Come to think of it, why would anyone let a teenager drive a car on the public roadways?
I am sure I will have fun explaining that to my daughter when she turns 16.

cheers
dave parker
wdcr ITC#97

[VWPartsGuy]

Mine's only 3 years old so I've got some time to mull this over but I was thinking 80's SAAB 900 or Volvo 240. Normally aspirated of course and maybe with a MicroDynamics rev-limiter hidden on it somewhere.

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Thomas Benham

[gsbaker]

Get him a 1966 Dodge Polara with a 6 cylinder. It meets all the specs: big, slow and ugly. The closest I could get to that for my daughter was a Sebring coupe, which she promptly bent.

A larger car will win the physics contest with a smaller car. Avoid top-heavy ones if possible.

A friend had both his teenagers complete a car control class before he got them wheels.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[planet6racing]

Well, if you don't want to be really mean, let me put in a shameless plug:

A first gen (91-95) Saturn SL2.

The cars run great, have plastic body panels so a lot of those minor dings just don't happen, and handle pretty well in stock form.

In terms of Safety, 91&92 had optional DS airbags, 93&94 had DS airbags (no options), and 95 got a PS airbag. 91-94 had the automatic seatbelts as well. In terms of crash safety, I've personally done the offset crash test (the same one the Insurance institute does) in my first Saturn. A driver decided to flip an illegal U-turn in front of me and I hit him at just under 40 mph with the DS. I walked away from the accident nearly unhurt (airbag blew my hand into the windshield, so I had (2) very bruised knuckles).

If interested, I can fill you in on everything to look for when purchasing one of these. There are plenty out there, so you should be able to find a good example in your price range.

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...they refuse to drive small cars themselves, and refuse to allow their spouse/kids to own small cars...their theory is the more mass the better.</font>

I must say I am distinctly troubled over society's growing near-sociopathic tendency of placing people in extreme mass vehicles, knowing full well that the intention of doing such is to kill and not be killed, regardless of responsibility for the event. Even more troubling is the idea of handing such a lethal weapon over to an ignorant, unskilled, potentially immature driver...

I suggest a much more socially responsible (and effective) alternative is to send your teenager to a reputable driving school to first, gain the skills necessary to not cause an accident, and second, gain the skills necessary to avoid an accident should someone else cause one. Then, I would consider purchasing a reasonably safe and nimble alternative to the brute-force "kill 'em all and let God Sort 'em out" option.

If we continue our mutually-asssured destruction of larger and larger vehicles being equipped by drivers of lessening skills, we're sure to grow to our own critical mass of total vehicular annihilation... GregA

[lateapex911]

I'm with Greg here, maybe not quite as far, but I am troubled by the societal shirking of responsibilty when it comes to the mass purchasing of huge "sport" utilities.

Around here at least, I see them driven with only the driver 90% of the time, and rarely are they carrying, hauling or towing anything, and if they are, most of the time it could fit in an average sedan.

Truth be known, the REAL reason most folks, around these parts, at least, buy them is the displaced damage criteria, and the fact that they are way cooler than a mini-van, which, for most people, would have been the most sensible choice.

The "large barge" is safer attutude displayed by the firemen is a worst case situation reaction. They see the results of the question, "IF you are driving and need to stop/swerve or avoid something, and you can't, is it better to plow into an object going 50MPH in a HUGE big heavy boat, or a small compact light dingy"?

Duh....

BUT...is the QUESTION valid???? It is a question that is based in PASSIVE safety. In other words, if the occupants are merely along for the ride, whats best?
But what about the concept of ACTIVE safety? The ability to stomp on the brakes and actually stop BEFORE you plow into something? Or the ability to swerve and avoid an accident altogether?

Are the firemen telling you it's better to crash and be ok than to not crash at all??

I think I would look for something that has ABS, is reasonably sized, has airbags, good seats and belts, and can stop and get out of trouble easily. NOT a barge...maybe an Audi or similar. And lacking horsepower won't hurt in the begining either.

As to the '66 Polaris comment...ouch! that hurt...I was allowed to drive the family's '66 Coronet as long as I made and paid for all the repairs..and they were plentiful. Not recommended!

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[gsbaker]

1) Ditto Greg's comment. Investing in drivers is better for everyone than investing in iron.

2) Ditto Bill's comment. We have a '94 in the family and with about 100K on it the only unexpected maintenance has been an alternator. Easy to work on, reliable, safe and inexpensive.

G

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
...As to the '66 Polaris comment...ouch! that hurt...I was allowed to drive the family's '66 Coronet as long as I made and paid for all the repairs..and they were plentiful. Not recommended!

Yeah Jake, but didn't you look cool in it? http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/cool.gif

G

[Wayne]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Are the firemen telling you it's better to crash and be ok than to not crash at all??
Don't be silly Jake. Of course they are not saying that. Most all of their kids were sent to some sort of car control school. They are simply saying that beyond trained drivers and accident avoidance, more mass is going to win out over less mass in many cases. And, all the training in the world is not going to help you when the "other guy" plows into the side of your Toyota Tercel with his full-size 3/4 ton truck. (despite your mad driving skills and best efforts to avoid said accident)

Their view is obviously going to be colored because they are the ones that have to scrape people out of their cars after an accident.

Nobody is denying the value of a driving school. My son will be attending Bondurants teenage driving school. I am VERY familiar with that particular program and believe it's worth the cost to travel down there. I'll either take the class with him, or do the advanced road racing class while I'm down there.

I also have the option of putting him in one of our local performance driving clinics, but to be honest, I'm not nearly as impressed with the local efforts yet.

Wayne

[ilateapex]

Bigger is beater. I had a '79 olds 98 Regency. Crashed a month after my license with 3 other guys in the car. Not paying enough attention and ran out of talent. No one hurt, No seatbelts. My next crash took place as a senior with my then girlfriend and later ex-wife. '80 300SD head into a phone pole. Walked away not feeling a thing. Totaled that one too. Now since then only minor fender benders with driving over 50K miles a year. The thing is that nothing can replace experience. No matter which school they go to at that age, nothing can replace seat time. Sound familiar?? I started HPDE in 1998 and was so surprised at how little I knew about driving. My 61 Y.O. father crashed his Lexus LS400 a few weeks ago and hit a 16Y.O. in a small Chevy Caviler. He T-boned her as she went through a light. Her 17Y.O passenger said my Dad ran the light and Dad swears he saw green. He got the air bag busted knuckles in the windshield and she was cut from the car and life flighted with a broken feemer(sp?). He is now looking for another large sedan with lots of air bags. I don't think Wayne is looking for SUV but just large sedan. BMW 535i?, MB 300SD?

Michael
33 Y.O. and still learning to drive

[Matt Rowe]

The point being made is large cars fair better when hitting small cars. That's fine, if you're in the large car. If you switch places for a moment do you want to be in a little fuel efficient, lightweight toyota and get hit by somebody in a big suv? No. So why advocate putting someone in that position? Getting a large car because you need the room is fine. Getting one because you want to inflict more damage than you take is just selfish.

Then also add in the consideration that gas is pushing the $2.50 a gallon mark, and teenagers usually don't have money to spare. A economical car with a good safety rating is the way I would go. Besides, bigger and heavier doesn't always mean better in a crash. Not if the engineers do their jobs right. And avoidance is worth a lot, especially if you teach them not just how to control the car, but how to see trouble before it happens.

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~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[Wayne]

Yeah, I'm thinking sedan over suv for sure. The 535's are nice cars but can you even get them for under 7 or 8K these days?

The Saturn's that Bill mentioned might be good. I see a lot of the kids around there driving those. The automatic seat-belts drive me nuts though... of course I won't be driving it much.

Do the older 240sx's have air bags? Do they have the auto seat-belts?

[ddewhurst]

My boys are two years apart. In the early 80's while in high school they had a 1973 Buick something four door station wagon $hity red color with a big a$$ed motor with a four barrel & automatic. Oh, with a razor back license plate on the front. That big ugly piece of $hit became the hit of the city. Can you visualise a large front seat, a large rear seat & a large cargo area. Let your mind wonder. Fastest thing that raced the streets, in REVERSE.

Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Wayne:

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Are the firemen telling you it's better to crash and be ok than to not crash at all??
Don't be silly Jake. Of course they are not saying that. ....Wayne

Well, I wasn't being literal, but, in a way, many people DO say that....they just don't know it.

When i think of all the "close calls" over the years, I can think of a few that would have been real events if the vehicle I was driving was something that didn't turn, or took 30 more feet to stop from 60.

To me, I would prefer to go the route that is more interested in active avoidance, and then backs it up with passive measures.

A 5 Series BMW is an excellent choice. I still have a 528e...great chassis, so-so motor...ideal inexpensive kids car..wanna buy it? http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

...and as to the '66 Coronet,..it even had 4 doors...I would have killed for a 2 door version, let alone something foreign...like the 911 that had the parking spot next to mine in the high school lot! http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Wayne]

Hmmm, I knew I shouldn't have started researching the 535's. I only found two of them within 1000 miles of me.

One of them was this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...6&category=6008 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4546538696&category=6008)

That seems like WAY too nice a car for a kids first car, plus it doesn't have an airbag, and it's over the budget. But dang, I think I might look good in it! Could use it as a commuter instead of my truck....

must look at Saturn's.. must look at Saturn's..

[lateapex911]

One last thought....a kid whole loves and has pride in his car might just be more responsible and take better care of it..

I love the idea you are going to teach him how to control and drive a car..that's huge!

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[therooster]

"Get him a 1966 Dodge Polara with a 6 cylinder."

I too resemble that remark. My first car was a '67 Valiant with the 6 cyl. I got it in '90 and still have it with only about 80K orig miles.

Chris

[apr67]

Look for a mid 90's VW, golf or better yet Jetta. Non-VR6, diesel would be even better.

The VW's are well built and crash well.

Mid 90's Volvos (wagon) are nice too.

As for people driving SUV's that have only 1 driver 90% of the time. Have you tried to put a rear facing child seat in most cars? It's very difficult to do in the average car, unless you like bending over a lot. Plus in many cars you can not put the seat all the way back if you have a child seat behind it (rear facing). The goverments child saftey crap is causing the increase in SUV's. And I don't think a Grand Caravan gets significantly better mileage than the Trailblazer ext.

[zracre]

Im new to this post but i want to adress something...putting someone inexperienced in some vehicle that is "big" and "safe" just means if he loses it in the thing not only will he get hurt but he will hurt others too...the budget is around 3k? gas is a premium now...he has many options...a good used 1994 or 95 integra ls is cheap and good mileage...used 95 and up maximas appeal to the younger gen and are very safe...i think he would be better in a front driver unless he really has his heart set on something....also make sure he learns to drive a stick...even if he is not an enthusiast...he will learn more car control naturally...just my opinion

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Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[zooracer]

If we all want to be completely safe in this world, lock yourself in a room and never do anything...
Sorry, but safety is not guaranteed in this world.
This is also the land of the free. If someone wants to drive a huge, honking Escalade, then it is their right to do so.
Where was all this emotional fear of big vehicles 20 years ago?
A full size one ton van is easily as big as any SUV, just as an F350 is. They have been around for a very long time.
Why hasnt anyone mentioned on here about teaching your kids yourself? Society these days wants to do nothing but give our children over to others for their education.
I would certainly hope that any parent who has been driving and racing for the last 20 years would know a thing or two about defensive driving. Teach your kids, preferably starting from a young age. I remember sitting on my dad's lap at age 10 and steering while my dad gave instruction.
Why is this so difficult for parents?
Number one cause of accidents is failure to yeild right of way. Teach defensive driving, and these can be avoided.
When I was a teenager a city garbage truck turned into my Volks Super Beetle. Talk about a huge hunk of iron...
I could have been killed.
Oh well, get over it, and get on with life.
I'm not out protesting city garbage trucks...
matt

[Matt Rowe]

Matt,

The difference 30 years ago was most everyone was driving large vehicles so you collisions were between two cars of similar size. Now we have a big disparity between large SUVs and smallel econo cars. Also, people used to think seatbelts weren't a big deal, so the publics perception of safety is not a good argument. I'm not saying we should boycot large vehicles. I'm just saying that if you're only reason to buy one is so that you're causing more damage than you receive than that isn't a very socially responsible decision.

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~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[gran racing]

"Number one cause of accidents is failure to yeild right of way."

Well, it is a cause but certainly wouldn't say it is the number one cause.

Wayne - I personally would recommend the older Integra as someone else previously mentioned. The 240sx is also a nice car. I would stay away from anything too quick! Yes I know, I'm sure your son is very responsible. But that's what my parents thought too. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif Get a friend in the car and well...sometimes esp. at that age a teenager might just push the car a bit. I know I did. Also consider how much it will cost to repair the car when it breaks especially if he'll be using it at HPDEs.

Sorry, shameless plug for another IT driver who co-owns the advanced driver training program in MA... Interesting site and worthwhile course.

www.incontroladt.com (http://www.incontroladt.com)

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[This message has been edited by gran racing (edited April 30, 2005).]

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Why is this so difficult for parents?</font>

Speaking for myself, at 15-16 I likely would not have taken my father's skills in serious light. He may have been the best driver in the world at the time, but when I was 16 years old he was pretty much a dumb-ass bastard. It's simply *amazing* how smart he got about the time I turned 22-23...and so quickly, too... http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

Same goes for other things, like flying. I tried to teach my wife the basics on how to fly an airplane; we both got frustrated trying. I sent her up with a CFI buddy of mine and she picked it up quick. Funny thing, I did the same for his wife, she wasn't as bad as he described! http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

All I'm saying here is that sometimes it needs to come from a somewhat-objective third party; being able to toss around someone else's car on a racetrack for your 16th birthday is, truly, icing on the cake...

[instigator]

You know maybe you may not think of this but how about a neon,ford focus,fox body 4cyl mustang. All cars that you can buy a roll cage for and install very cheap. To insure the safety of the ocupants inside . All though nothing is 100% safe you can at least help the odds by adding safety equipment to the car and at an affordable cost because of prefab components. You also take away the back seat by doing this. Thus alowing only one passenger in the car and hopfully the use of 5 point harness to hold them in ther seats.

Just a thought

Kurt Jackson
IT7 #59

[CaptJon]

Jake, I will soon be having the same dilema that you are currently going through. My 15 year old daughter has already started talking about "her" car that I will be getting her. She keeps commenting on this one and that one but she fails to realize I already know what I will get her ( if I get one for her)

Having been in the fire service for over 20 years and responding to more than my share of crashes one car stands out head and shoulders above the rest for occupant safety. That would be the Ford Taurus. Those things are tanks. I've seen them run into things or hit by things and you would swear that the people in the Taurus were killed or seriously injured. But those people were standing around waiting for us to show up.

[zooracer]

Well, I was really talking about 20 yrs ago, not 30. In the early eighties, compacts were pretty popular/common.
I really dont think anyone goes out and buys a big SUV with the intention of "creating more damage or injury" then they recieve. I think they buy them for more room and for the safety factor. If some idiot driving a subcompact runs a light and hits them, they wont have to worry about the safety of their families.
I was a cop for several years back in the mid nineties and the most common cause of accidents was failure to yeild right of way. Drunk drivers were up there on the statistics...
This may have changed in the 10 years since I worked in public service.
So far as respecting our fathers skills/knowledge, I always did. Maybe this is strange these days, dont know.
Before long, I was able to out drive my dad, but in my early teens there was no lack of respect.
Kids are smarter then some parents give them credit for. They can see if the parent knows what theyre talking about so far as driving/racing.
I think a lot of times parents get caught up in making money/having careers (both parents working) rather then spending time with the kids.
When I was 17 my dad took me to a racing school where we drove formula fords. Great for racing know how, but doesnt really help on the streets. Drive your kids and teach. When they come of age, sit with them as they drive you to the grocery store, and teach them
matt

[Wayne]

Originally posted by GregAmy:
Speaking for myself, at 15-16 I likely would not have taken my father's skills in serious light. He may have been the best driver in the world at the time, but when I was 16 years old he was pretty much a dumb-ass bastard.
This is so very true indeed, and that's why my son will get instruction from other people in addition to myself. I've seen it in baseball and firearms with my son, and I see no reason that it will be any different for defensive driving instruction.

As Greg mentioned, I think it is important for the kid to hear the message from someone other than "just dad".

Even though I have a fairly extensive competitive firearms training background. I made sure my son took every NRA class (with a different instructor than myself) before taking up a particular firearm discipline.

When he was playing little league baseball, I would constantly try to get him to close up his stance, and not roll his wrist over quite so much during his swing. "Ya, ya, dad I know, I know".

One game, the score was tied in the last inning, two outs, one on, and my son was due up. When he was in the warm-up circle one of the other parents walked over and showed him about closing his stance and rolling over his wrist (like I had done countless times).

He goes out and hits a home-run, winning the game. On the drive home he says, "Mr. Nelson showed me this new stance that I think helped me to hit the homerun"....
http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/mad.gif

Wayne

[Wayne]

Originally posted by gran racing:
http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif[/img] Get a friend in the car and well...sometimes esp. at that age a teenager might just push the car a bit. I know I did.
Well, if he is anything like I was at 16, we are going to have a problem. That's one of the reasons I'm so adamant about him taking some sort of additional defensive driver training.

I put my moms prized thunderbird in the ditch a mere 5 hours after I left the dol testing station with my drivers license. Needless to say, Dad was none to happy. After the "counseling session" was done he told me if I wanted to have a lead foot I needed to do my racing on the track.

Once I started racing on the track, my respect for the power of an automobile grew immensely, and my speeding tickets fell to almost nil. I'm hoping to skip the whole wrecking cars bit with my sons driving adventures.

But I'll tell you what, that 429 four barrel thunderjet V8 engine in that thunderbird sure would roast those tires! http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

Wayne

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Bigger is beater.</font>

This doesn't always apply have any of you guys seen all the airbags in the new MINI!!
That thing turns in to one big airbag!!

I realize this is not the solution to the problem but i thought it was funny when i saw all the air bags in my dad's new Cooper.

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Eric W. Chance
2000 Mazda Miata C-Stock
1964 1/2 Mustang (For Sale)

[Wreckerboy]

Several references have been made (above) to the Saturn being desirable because of the automatic seatbelt feature. My step-daughter has a '94 which I got to fix this weekend, and it has those belts.

I am guessing that those automatic belts work if you are the whatever percentile person who actually fits in them properly. In her car the belt is actually 6-8 inches in front of me (I'm 6'2"), which strikes me as waaaay to much room for my torso to accelerate before I get to it - kinda like leaving the shoulder harnesses loose in the race car. The rotten child also has fitment issues, as do many people I have seen in cars like these, and as I have had in various other cars so equipped (late 80's Camrys, early 90's Accords, and any VW).

Or am I missing something?

[planet6racing]

I wouldn't say they were being touted as a good thing, I was just mentioning that it had them.

I do agree with you, though. If you have legs, the belts may not contact you depending on your driving position. In my accident, I had a much different driving position that kep the belt near me, but not in contact (not quite the 2" you have). I can say, though, that I never hit the airbag (belts stopped me) and I do remember looking at the bag during the wreck (I even remember seeing the horn shroud split in half and thinking "Oh fudge. This is not good!").

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[bhudson]

In picking a car for a teenager, I would hesitate to take recommendations based on anecdotal evidence. Too many parents believe that putting their kids in a tank offers the best protection. It's not necessarily true - some small cars offer better crash protection for the occupants than pickup trucks or SUV's.

Do a little research and do the best you can to instill a responsible attitude among your kids. I know it's difficult because we all remember what we were like as teenagers.

One of my best friends took a rather unorthodox approach to his teens' first cars. He avoided cars with passive restraints, air bags, or antilock brakes because he felt (and I agree to a certain extent) that these safety advances have made so many drivers feel invincible that defensive driving has become a lost art. He also removed the radios from the cars until they had been driving on their own for at least two years.

Bob Hudson
Atlanta

[gran racing]

No radio? Ouch! I so would have put a big boom box in the back seat which would have been even more dangerous.

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si