IT going national? Could it happen? No way? Well Maybe?

[Doug Ford]

I heard something today that I think would be interesting and very beneficail to all of us IT guys. On of the things that has come up in general conversation is making all the race classes national and allowing the top classes (by participation numbers by August) attend the runoffs. One of the things that SCCA is struggling with is what to do with all the classes that they currently have plus the the need to create. I think it would be great if they did it but I doubt it will ever happen.



------------------
SpeedSource rx-7 ITS #12
2004 Suburban white
2001 supercrew white (tow vehicle)
memphis

[lateapex911]

I spoke with Kansas (Jeremy) about this, and it's an idea I have been behind for a long time.

SCCA needs exciting racing on the tube...Speed World Challenge is great, but the club side is boring on screen...sorry, but most of the Runoffs races are not well subscribed, the interval from pole to last on grid is huge, and the racing is boring. Some classes are exceptions, but as a whole, we can do better.

Adding SM, and IT could yield much better racing, and help sell the club to the public. REAl ITS and ITA ..and even ITB National champoinships??? You know the first two would be throw downs! Maybe B too!)

I think that having certain "reserved" classes, and the remaining classes open to the best subscibed classes is the way to go. The club needs to serve it's membership equally.

The actual administration and details might need some crafting, but the idea is sound.

That said, IT as we know it will never make it to the Runoffs as is, as there are WAY too many models without proper documentation. Those models will need to be excluded. I hope that the concept doesn't get lost in the detail mongering.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Ron Earp]

On an average SCCA weekend, what percentage of the entry fees are IT?

Documentation - what models don't have proper documentation (IT spec in GCR, shop manual, etc.)? What is required for proper documentation? What is an example of a car without proper documentation?


------------------
Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey ITS
1/2 a 260Z ITS

[Knestis]

Again - organizational culture will prevent this from ever happening. For whatever reason, it is simply understood that there are National classes, Regional classes, and a few that are defined by the rules to forever remain Regiona - IT.

That's just how it is, despite examples like the NWR/Montana Region Double National that I attended, that had more classes eligible to compete than cars entered...

K

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by rlearp:
On an average SCCA weekend, what percentage of the entry fees are IT?

Documentation - what models don't have proper documentation (IT spec in GCR, shop manual, etc.)? What is required for proper documentation? What is an example of a car without proper documentation?





Ron, you hit, as usual, on some key elements that are going to be sticking points.

The trouble is, as far as I know, that regioanal car counts have not been reported to National HQ in the same way as National car counts have been for decades. So, the number is really not known, and varies wildly by area and race. So that's not good. I've been grumbling about the reporting thing for a year or two, and I was under the impression that it was being looked at and instituted, but I am out of the loop on whether it has begun or not. In any case, long term historical info is lacking.

Documentation.

I can't answer definitavely without significant research, but the IT ranks are full of old and obscure cars, and I hate to say this, but I think your's might be a poster child. If I recall some of your posts accurately (please forgive me and correct me if I have it wrong),, there is some doubt as to what exact parts were put on your car on any given day. Even if those parts in question, for which there is no solid documentation, are minor, it can result in huge problems when a competitor decides to call you up on it at the National Champoinship. The protest commitee is loath to preside over an already difficult situation with out clearcut documentation.

So a major hurdle will be determining which cars do, and which do not have adequate documenttion, and, for that matter, what constitutes "adequate" documentation. It could be a huge rats nest.

K is right, there is a time honored 2 class system at work here, and IT is in the baggage area!

That said, there are some leaders in high places that would like to see big changes.


------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[eprodrx7]

Jake,
Easy way around the lack of documentation, put real drivers incharge of stupid protests over non competitive items like washer botles and horns. We all know that these are not the reasons that one car is faster then the next but when you put the rule reader/non-drivers in charge what you get is a literal application of the rules and a way for the winers to cut down the guys that are there to race not just hang at the beer party

[Catch22]

Adding SM, and IT could yield much better racing, and help sell the club to the public. REAl ITS and ITA ..and even ITB National champoinships??? You know the first two would be throw downs! Maybe B too!)


Don't perpetuate the problem by leaving ITC out of this mythical equation.

Yes, numbers are down, but it still produces more entrants than quite a few of the national classes in my division.

And many spectators and workers from the 2004 ARRC will tell you that ITC produced the best race of the weekend. A 6 car battle for first for most of the race.

I don't think this will ever happen, but when you exclude one class from the potential you certainly aren't helping matters.

------------------
#22 ITC Honda Civic
3rd Place 2004 ARRC
1st Place 2004 ARRC Enduro
www.motorpride.com/Catch22 (http://www.motorpride.com/Catch22)

[lateapex911]

Hey- Sorry to step on any ITC toes! I was there at the ARRCs, and watched a great race, and I would be happy to see ITC at the Runoffs instead of many national classes. I left it off the list because, from a casual observation, I guessed the numvbers might not be sufficient. My bad...I would love ALL IT classes to be represented!

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
I can't answer definitavely without significant research, but the IT ranks are full of old and obscure cars, and I hate to say this, but I think your's might be a poster child. If I recall some of your posts accurately (please forgive me and correct me if I have it wrong),, there is some doubt as to what exact parts were put on your car on any given day.


Jake,

You are correct in that of the cars in IT mine would probably be the worst, which is why I asked the question. But, as probably the worst out there I can say there is enough documentation to race with no problem.

While the shop manual doesn't have the fantastic pictures like modern books, it covers everything with enough detail - if you read the text.

Of the things I can remember people here being concerned about:

*It clearly states that one of six cam timings may be used with the motor and "choice of timing will depend upon intended use and emissions requirements."

*"If your car is so equiped, remove the washer bottle and wiper pump assembly before removal of the engine dampener shock mount."

And a lot of other litle bits and pieces. My point is there is enough documentation to race the car without question as to legal parts, timing, or whatnot. And of the JH is legal enough then I don't think we need to eliminate a bunch of cars because they are obscure - I don't think there isn't anything more obscure in IT at the moment (but some good close ones, Opels, GT6s, etc.)

Although there isn't much of a chance of IT going National I, and others like me that don't go for mainstream cars, would hate to be excluded just based on car choice.

What, would the National IT race be limited to BMW 325s, Nissan 240sxs, Porsche 944s, Datsun 240z (260s are too obscure), Acura Integras, Honduhs, etc.? Not really anything to get worried about right now since we're a LONG WAY from a National IT race I suppose.

There is a big race at VIR in a few weeks, I'll try and get a total count of drivers and total number of IT drivers. I'll bet IT is a large percentage.

------------------
Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey ITS
1/2 a 260Z ITS

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited April 17, 2005).]

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Knestis:
Again - organizational culture will prevent this from ever happening. For whatever reason, it is simply understood that there are National classes, Regional classes, and a few that are defined by the rules to forever remain Regiona - IT.

That's just how it is, despite examples like the NWR/Montana Region Double National that I attended, that had more classes eligible to compete than cars entered...

K


Kirk,

I'm really surprised that you're so willing to accept the status quo. Especially when it's such an arbitray distinction. IT has changed significatnly since its inception. To saddle it w/ Draconian constraints like "forever Regional" and "NGOC" is just plain silly, especially when you look at the percentage of IT cars, compared to all the race cars that run.

The SM folks were able to do it. It's one of the main reasons they didn't want to be associated w/ IT, because they didn't want people having the perception that they'd be "forever Regional". Time for the SCCA to see what's going on, and move into the 21st century.

And Jake, definately don't leave ITC out. I'm guess that, even w/ the low numbers of cars, you'll see more ITC cars than CSR, DSR, or S2 cars!


------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Team Rocket]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
SCCA needs exciting racing on the tube...Speed World Challenge is great, but the club side is boring on screen...sorry, but most of the Runoffs races are not well subscribed, the interval from pole to last on grid is huge, and the racing is boring. Some classes are exceptions, but as a whole, we can do better...


Wow! IT on the tube? You think IT club racing is expesive now? Wait until it gets televised. Even once a year. There are some that will pay a LOT of money to be at the front of the field during a televised race. And there will be some sponsors to help you get to the front. I know the rules limits preparation, but those paint jobs will cost more then your engine! http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

When does "club" become "pro?"

Jim

P.S. If you're the Jake I think you are, I hope to see you and Dave at the Glen in the fall!

[Knestis]

There are NO substantive differences between amateur and "pro" road racing in the US, but don't get me started on that...


Originally posted by Bill Miller:
I'm really surprised that you're so willing to accept the status quo. ...

I'm actually very pleased with the progress that the current ITAC seems to have made in the last year, and I'd LIKE to think that all of my windmill jousting at the IT2 cause shook some of the trees enough that new ITA cars fell out - of ITS and the World of the Great Unlisted.

I've also been in this organization since 1979 and know ossified when I see ossified.

Recent changes in IT have been made within the constraints of the system, rather than because there were substantial strategic or organizational changes. Asking for the folks with a stake in the current National system to share the spotlight is a huge stretch.

On the SM front, I don't think I'm being a conpiracy nut to suggest that Mazda's $$ commitment to the entire Club Racing program didn't grease those skids.

K

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Knestis:
I'm actually very pleased with the progress that the current ITAC seems to have made in the last year, and I'd LIKE to think that all of my windmill jousting at the IT2 cause shook some of the trees enough that new ITA cars fell out - of ITS and the World of the Great Unlisted.

Me too....IT is a much different place in some ways than it was as few as 2 years ago. Perfect? No...it will never be perfect, but great stides have been made, and some important changes have taken place.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> .... Asking for the folks with a stake in the current National system to share the spotlight is a huge stretch. </font>

It IS a huge stretch, but for some reason, I think this concept will come to pass...maybe IT won't end up at teh Runoffs, but I have a feeling that we will see major and substantive changes. Some good, some not so good, and some mixed.

(Even guys who consider themselves to be NOT part of the good ole boys club, but who have been around for awhile resist changes)


On the SM front, I don't think I'm being a conpiracy nut to suggest that Mazda's $$ commitment to the entire Club Racing program didn't grease those skids.

K

Probably true, but Mazda $$ in and of itself isn't entirely responsible...the popularity of the class is the major factor.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[RacerBill]

OK, jump in with all four wheels!

1) Thanks to the ITAC for everything they have done and are doing to make IT the place to race. I don't like the fact the things like coilovers and camber/caster plates ($$$$$$) have wormed their way into the rules, but at this time I'm not even considering building a 'killer' engine, just want to have a good time and race with someone, anyone.

2) I would love to see IT become National classes. One of the resons why I chose the car that I did (other that really liking it) was that fact that with modification, it car run in IT, EP or GT3. However that would take at minimum, removing headlights, since they are not retractable.

I can't remember exactly, but back in '66 when I first joined SCCA, there were very few 'Regional only' classes (anyone remember how long FVee was 'Regional only' before it went National - how about FFord?)

IT is at about the same preparation level as Production was back then. What's the matter with racing Nationally to those specifications again?

The car class structure in SCCA has evolved over the years and will (and should) continue to evolve. (How many of you remember A,B,C, and D Sedan, C, D, E, F, G and H Mod, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H Production?)

My only reservation with IT going National is that there will be more racers spending the big bucks to win at the National level, and will decide to also compete at the Regional level, making things more difficult for the more modest budget oriented racers to do well. Remember, I already placed myself back in the pack by choice of car. Also, fair, resonable, enforcable rules must be in place.

Just to let you kind of know where I am coming from, I race karts every week, and the drivers I race with are in the top 10% of all the people that race there. I don't have the fastest time most of the time, but just being able to have some good knock down drag out dices at that level (one of our group is a three time SCCA National Champion) once in a while is really rewarding.

The only request that I would make of the ITAC is to request that the National office accumulate Regional class participation numbers. The last time I requested Regional results for Topeka, they said to check for race results on the individual Regions' websites (hard to do when not all regions have web sites).

Sorry for the long post. Worked all weekend getting the trailer ready for the season, so don't have the energy for a really long one!

Race safe!!

------------------
Bill Stevens
Mbr 103106
BnS Racing
83 ITA Shelby Dodge Charger

[ddewhurst]

Dam, I thought winter was over.

Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by rlearp:
On an average SCCA weekend, what percentage of the entry fees are IT?

Documentation - what models don't have proper documentation (IT spec in GCR, shop manual, etc.)? What is required for proper documentation? What is an example of a car without proper documentation?




To further complicate this answer, most of the National drivers stay home on Regional weekends. You would have to add both types of races to see the totals in your area.

Here in NER, Spec Miata's and IT accounted for 104 of the 168 pre-registers entrants. IT was 60 of that 168 - 35%! But again, not many of the National drivers show to run the Regionals up here...

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[Bill Miller]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">My only reservation with IT going National is that there will be more racers spending the big bucks to win at the National level, and will decide to also compete at the Regional level, making things more difficult for the more modest budget oriented racers to do well. </font>

I see this as a red herring. As Andy pointed out, most of the National drivers don't go to Regionals. They may show up now and then, to shake the car down, or get some seat time on a track that they don't drive much (but has a National comming up), but probably won't be running a whole Regional series. Also, don't fall into the trap of thinking that just because it's Regional racing, that it's necessarily any cheaper to run at the front. If nothing else, $35k+ IT cars should make that painfully obvious. It may be cheaper to run a Nationally-classed car at the Regional level, and do well (because most of the folks spend the money to go to the big show). But when Regional is the only place to run (i.e. IT), that's where you're going to see the money spent.

Now, if the whole National/Regional distinction goes away (which I personally think it should), it's a different story. I like the idea of having the top folks, in the top classes, going to the big show.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
[quote]

I like the idea of having the top folks, in the top classes, going to the big show.



AMEN.

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[RacerBill]

Another quick thought. Expounding on the thought that National drivers don't run Regionals - if IT became National classes, some of the big bucks cars might move to the National level, lowering the average cost per car at the Regional level. would this help bring in new racers?

What's the feeling out there about the National/Regional classes? Are the big buck cars running Nationals and the lower budget cars running regionals?



------------------
Bill Stevens
Mbr 103106
BnS Racing
83 ITA Shelby Dodge Charger

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by RacerBill:
Another quick thought. Expounding on the thought that National drivers don't run Regionals - if IT became National classes, some of the big bucks cars might move to the National level, lowering the average cost per car at the Regional level. would this help bring in new racers?

What's the feeling out there about the National/Regional classes? Are the big buck cars running Nationals and the lower budget cars running regionals?



Bill,

I suspect that if IT went National, and we still maintained the Regional / National destinction on races (which I guess we'd need to do, to still provide the 'specialty' (e.g. ITE, RS, etc.) a place to race), that that's exactly what you'd see. Just like you see w/ most of the other categories/classes today. The folks that want to go to "The Show" would run the Nationals, and the folks that don't have the big budgets, and don't care if they go to the Runoffs or not, would continue to run the Regionals.

I think it's a win-win for all the IT racers. It gives those that want to, a chance to go to the Runoffs, and compete for a real National Championship. It gives those that don't want to do that some relief, in that they don't necessarily have to worry about the big dogs w/ the deep pockets running away w/ everything.

I feel pretty confident in saying that the folks that were going to make a serious bid for the Runoffs would probably not run Regionals. I personally have friends that run Prod cars, that subscribe to this philosophy. Some don't run Regionals because they're making a shot at the Runoffs, and others don't run Nationals because they don't care about going to the Runoffs, and are just out there to have a good time w/ their friends.

We could still get rid of the whole National / Regional distinction, and change the races to qualifying and non-qualifying (for the Runoffs) races. Classes like ITE, etc. could run at the non-qualifying races. So really, the only thing that would change, would be how the races were referred to (Q / non-Q vs. R / N). Thoughts?

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[RSTPerformance]

IN the Northeast car counts are almoast to high, we couldn't handle another 4 race groupes in a National at NHIS or Lime Rock. And yes I think that "IT" would bring in 3 or 4 more run groupes as the fields would all be packed after a year or two.

The current set up is "best" IMO. Just make IT rules legal in prodction for those that want to go to "the runoffs." yeah you wont win, but you will have fun. If you want a championship continue what we have, and make the "local" championships more prestiege and make the ARRC the true regional classes national championship.

Just my opionion (although I hate it) based on our local area...

Raymond

[Matt Rowe]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
The folks that want to go to "The Show" would run the Nationals, and the folks that don't have the big budgets, and don't care if they go to the Runoffs or not, would continue to run the Regionals.


Even at regionals I typically see a couple of national drivers show up to shake their cars down and get a little extra time. One in particular comes to mind who intentionally starts in the back and hangs back to avoid any first lap stupidity and the proceeds to win the race. With this happening the relatively low budget regional guy either has to start spending more money to win, or settle for second, or third, or whatever place is left after the national racers finish.

I still not sure why we need to go to a national class. Especially since many cars are already classed in prod or better yet as LP Prod. The minimum prep differences between IT and LP are not that big and probably no more costly than the increase in cost we would see from IT going national. So an option alreay exists but by changing IT we stand a big chance of hurting the class participation and raising the cost to everyone.


------------------
~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[This message has been edited by Matt Rowe (edited April 18, 2005).]

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Matt Rowe:
The minimum prep differences between IT and LP are not that big and probably no more costly than the increase in cost we would see from IT going national. So an option alreay exists but by changing IT we stand a big chance of hurting the class participation and raising the cost to everyone.




Don't kid yourself Matt. Ask Don Barrack what they've got into their l-p HP Scirocco. And I don't buy that it would increase costs for everyone. There are plenty of Prod folks that don't have the tons of money in their cars that the top National guys do. They run Regionals, and have fun.


------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I like the idea of having the top folks, in the top classes, going to the big show.</font>

AMEN, Part Deaux.

I'm not that big on "The Runoffs" (been there, done that, got the medal) but I don't like the idea of "real" classes and "sub" classes in SCCA. What's the point? I have no clue as to the origin or Regional and National classes, but whatever it was the time is long gone.

And anyone who thinks that going National will increase the costs of building top-flight IT cars (or conversely that not being National reduces costs) ain't looking around very hard. Open your eyes.

[Knestis]

Historically, I think that "regional" and "divisional" championship events came first (with the latter qualifying drivers to the national championships), and the concept of "Regional" and "National" CLASSES came later.

Really, the distinction applies only to IT and those region-specific classes. I can speak with authority on the common discussion about IT when it was conceived as a national-rules, regional-only category, since I was around then. The thinking was that this policy and the "no guarantee of competitivenes" clause, that kept the category out of the performance adjustment game, would preserve IT as a low-pressure, low-cost, entry stepping stone to "bigger, better" classes.

Problem is, IT makes more sense than most of those other options, so it has grown beyond them in terms of participation.

K

[Ron Earp]

Kirk I think your last sentence says it all. I have no idea what it was like "back then" or even last year, but a quick look at the rundown of cars at the recent National at CMP shows not many production cars. I don't have it in front of me, but some of those classes only had 4 cars, many between 4 and 8. Is that fun to race against 4 cars? At the same race ITS had low turnout, but still had 3 times as many cars. Ditto for A and SM was decently populated. I know I complain about the age of IT cars (and don't help by driving an old one) but I'd rather race an "old" 260Z, JH, or 1st,2nd Gen RX7 than a Spridget from 196X with 17:1 compression that blows up with frightening regularity.

Maybe the IT is starting to be recognized as where lots of people race and as a large percentage of income for races?

------------------
Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey ITS
1/2 a 260Z ITS

[Matt Rowe]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:

Don't kid yourself Matt. Ask Don Barrack what they've got into their l-p HP Scirocco. And I don't buy that it would increase costs for everyone. There are plenty of Prod folks that don't have the tons of money in their cars that the top National guys do. They run Regionals, and have fun.




Bill, maybe you missed it but I said the MINIMUM changes neccesary to turn an IT to LP. I specifically said that because you can go have fun in a national class by spending only a little extra money. But, if you make IT a national class then you are going to relegate everyone that doesn't have a national scale budget to an also ran. And yes, money usually buys victories, but being regional only does keep some of the big money out of IT.

There are guys with limited budgets running regionals and having fun in production. But wait isn't that what IT is supposed to be for, fun and relatively cheap. Maybe some of those production guys could tell us if they would like to have a chance at a win at a regional if the national level cars were exlcuded. I'm willing to bet they would. And that is essentially what we already have in IT.

Maybe I missed it, but why do we feel like we need to change what is already a popular format? Is it so that people can go to Runoffs?

Finally, consider SS, a class with VERY limited modifcations. But the cost to compete is so high. Why? Because as a national class more is at stake. We all know that rules don't limit spending. What limits spending is the return on investment that keeps big money out of a series that only offers 5 dollar trophies. But offer the chance to be a "National Champion" and a line to starts to form of people willing to buy that.

A $37,500 BMW is a bit much but how many are there in the country? If you go national that number will at least triple which means the little guy is no longer fighting for third, he's fighting for 8th or 12th or worse. It may still be fun, but it's not as fun and there is already a place for those guys to run.

I just can't believe this is the first discussion about a rule change I've seen in awhile that doesn't tell the guy to move to Prod. Instead were saying we should turn IT into Prod. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/biggrin.gif

------------------
~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[Knestis]

If you want to run Nationals, just move to Production!

There. I said it.

Seriously though. I hadn't really asked myself the "what if?" question, since it's so damned far-fetched to me but I can picture both doors opening if IT became a National class:

Door #1 - Some people spend more money on their IT cars so they can "go to the big show."

Door #2 - Those same people stop running for regional championships (doing fewer "local" races), taking their money and the advantages it purchases away from "just have fun" racers like me.

This vision sort of assumes nothing else major changes, like the elimination of the Regional/National distinction.

Now, looking at things with a new perspective? FIA rallying used to use a coefficient system that I thought was cool, granting multipliers to points earned based on the stage miles of the event. World rounds were "coefficient 20" events, that counted heavily toward continental championships. Smaller events had coefficients of 1, 2, 5, or whatever so you earned 10, 20, or 50 points for winning your class at one, against 200 for winning a world round.

How about all club races counting as points earners to championships. You could run for a Regional title by joining the region and accumulating points from races within (and maybe a couple out of) your region. Join as many regions as you want, run for as many titles as you can afford.

Each Region could host one Super Regional showcase spectator kind of event, for which some multiplier could be applied - like 4x points - to attract really deep fields.

Ditto Divisional championships - counting any/all events earned in a division with points qualifying drivers to their respective divisional run-off event, late in the season. Assign that a 10x multiplier (or whatever) so it is necessary to run it to win the title but impossible to win without running a full season, too. You don't win a divisional title by winning that race: You do it by accumulating points, more of which are available at that semi-big show.

Those total divisional points then qualify drivers to the RubOffs. It would be impossible to cherry pick a few events to qualify in a well-subscribed class. This is a "new life" event, where points are out the window and it's Katie bar the door - necessary because divisions won't all offer the same number of point-scoring opportunities.

Further, only the top XX classes in terms of participation would qualify to the Really Big Show each year, creating a Darwin-driven kind of system that perpetuated only the most popular classes, leaving the others available to play in.

Isn't there supposed to be a damn strategic plan or something? This suggestion assumes certain first principles that I think are valuable but it's likely that there is TONS of room for disagreement on them.

Kirk (who is kind of pissed off that he is now starting to care about this issue)

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited April 18, 2005).]

[RSTPerformance]

Kirk-

I do like your format for National races... And I like the Idea of IT being a National class, but I can't help but wonder... would it really be for the best of the average guy/gal who just comes out to have fun???

Love the idea, but remember we are no longer racing regionals for fun (with your idea)... The few at the top that care will be racing for that championship, every point counts and the little guy/gal better get out of the way...

Raymond

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Matt Rowe:

There are guys with limited budgets running regionals and having fun in production. But wait isn't that what IT is supposed to be for, fun and relatively cheap. Maybe some of those production guys could tell us if they would like to have a chance at a win at a regional if the national level cars were exlcuded. I'm willing to bet they would. And that is essentially what we already have in IT.


Matt,

I'll give you that, you don't HAVE to spend a ton to go from l-p to Prod. But you do if you want to win. But, you already have to do that if you want to win in IT, especially ITS and to somewhat of a lesser degree, ITA. And yes, IT IS supposed to be fun and inexpensive (at least that's what the book says). Sorry to say, but that's gone by the boards, if you want to win.


Finally, consider SS, a class with VERY limited modifcations. But the cost to compete is so high. Why? Because as a national class more is at stake. We all know that rules don't limit spending. What limits spending is the return on investment that keeps big money out of a series that only offers 5 dollar trophies. But offer the chance to be a "National Champion" and a line to starts to form of people willing to buy that.

Another thing that contributes to the higher cost of SS is that the donor cars are usually a lot of money. Not to mention that they have a defined, finite life span. I don't know what's a base BMW Z4 w/ the 2.5 liter motor go for? How about a new Miata (which you probably won't buy, if you want to win SSB this year)? To say that SS is so expensive because it's a National class is not really accurate. If it's about 'buying' a National Championship, a FV or SRF are cheaper.




A $37,500 BMW is a bit much but how many are there in the country? If you go national that number will at least triple which means the little guy is no longer fighting for third, he's fighting for 8th or 12th or worse. It may still be fun, but it's not as fun and there is already a place for those guys to run.


Probably a lot more than you think. Look at the top ITS cars in the various Regional Series along the East coast (MARRS, SARRC, NARRC, etc.) There are probably a good 10 - 12 right there. I really don't think the folks that will spend the money to win a National Championship are also going to spend extra money just to go win a bunch of $5 trophies by racing against a group of (percieved) lower talented drivers in lesser prepared cars.



I just can't believe this is the first discussion about a rule change I've seen in awhile that doesn't tell the guy to move to Prod. Instead were saying we should turn IT into Prod. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/biggrin.gif



Nobody has said anything about turning IT into Prod. Making IT National doesn't make it Prod. Nice try, but you'll have to do better than that.



------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Anubis]

If this were to happen you would wind up with 8-9 group nationals in some areas. Very very very tough to get in before DST kicks in not to mention 75 minutes more for a weekend(along with 75 minutes kicking in next year for SM nationally).

------------------
Lance Snyder
Atlanta Region F&C

RIP Dimebag- August 20, 1966 to December 8th, 2004.

[lateapex911]

There are some very interesting scenarios that could pan out here...

Remember, the original post said ALL classes would be considered for the Runoffs, based on participation numbers by August.

First, I would think the regional/national distinction would likely be dropped merely due to scheduling issues.

Second, yes, IT could be more expensive, but I am not sure winning would cost dramatically more. PLACING would cost more. A real National Chamionship centrally located would likely draw more entries than the south east defacto IT championships that draws some very interested racers. I imagine a podium would become a tad more difficult.

Third....there would be a pleasing bit of fallout. If you are a driver in a...let's say.... a poorly subscribed Prod class, and this system comes along...wouldn't it make sense to rethink your ride? 15 car fields with 7 second covering the field at the Runoffs would be history...no more easy top ten for the "run the minimum races you have to per year to make the Runoffs" driver.

Gaining berth might actually mean something in all the classes.

So, IT might actually gain drivers from other poorly subscribed classes.

But for the guy who just wants to run for "fun" ...it won't cost a dime more. Right now, we have 25 car ITA fields in the NE....coming in midpack will cost the same...but 12th might be 16th...

To me, it's the prep level that makes IT a popular destination...we hear all the time how guys are entering the category to have fun, and aren't concerned about running at the front...why would that change?

Keep the prep level under control, make the classing structure as fair as possible, and "budget racing for fun" can co-exist with National Championship racing just fine....

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited April 18, 2005).]

[Geo]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Dam, I thought winter was over.

Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David

What's winter? http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[zracre]

i think the arrc is a pretty big deal and nationally known. the level of competition is awesome..if people just want to race cars and have fun there will always be a place to race but it always cost money to win no matter what...
if IT goes national, regional classes will only have a handful of cars to race...it will definitely add more competition with big spenders, but also recognition. SM is going but just how much power can you get out of a nationally prepared SM? people spend a fortune on sunbelt motors (or any good SM shop builder)...i think it would add to the club...just my opinion...

Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[Mattberg]

Just wondering why a distinction needs to be made between National and regional. I think you'll always have guys that spend lots and guys who try and squeak by. It's been like that forever. But why not just create a race organization, National in scope, and pick the top 22-24 classes at the end of the season. Those that don't make the big show go to the ARRC. Sort of like the NCCA basketball tournament. You don't make the 64 you still get a shot at the NIT.

[zracre]

wouldnt it be neat if you could run production with an it car?? why wont they let them run in their IT state in prod?? prod cars will have the advantage with slicks and such we would still have to run dot tires...i know the roll cage requirements are higher for prod cars but still the speeds of a good ITS or ITA car are on par, maybe a little slower that its prod counterpart...just a thoought...so IT drivers can log national races and maybe cross over....just another silly thought

Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[RacerBill]

Wow, this thread is awesome! There have been some really good ideas presented, and everyone is behaving themselves. Every idea has good points and not so good points, depending on how one looks at it.

But the ideas presented all have far reaching consequences for SCCA in general. So a lot of factors need to be taken into account. Someone mentioned a strategic plan. Yes, a three-year and 5-year plan must be in place to guide our decisions. Then also take into account the number of classes, run groups, available tracks, available dates, (feel free to add to this list, it is not all inclusive!), etc. Factor in the workers needed to run all the events, too.

In any event, I believe that while the concept of qualifying/non-qualifying races has merit, the National/Regional division serves the club better. With two distinct levels of competition, those drivers who are looking to start a career in racing have a better chance of being recognized. Kind of like the major and minor leagues in other sports.

While a couple of years ago, I would have really wanted to go to the National Runoffs, at this time I have set as one of my racing goals, to race at the ARRC. I believe that IT is popular enough to have national champions (and other regional level national champions, as well).

Anyway, this has been a fine discussion. But we are only one part of the club. We all need to discuss these issues with our local, area, division, and national officers, as well as the competitors in other classes. As we have hatched some different perspectives, I am sure that there are others that have additional ideas. We need to remember to keep the discussions on a positive note, non-confrontational, and respect the ideas of others.

Winter is really over - just have too much time on my hands while the cage is being built built!!!!

------------------
Bill Stevens
Mbr 103106
BnS Racing
83 ITA Shelby Dodge Charger

[ddewhurst]

***What's winter?***

Winter would be that time of the year when the temp is maybe 5* below zero, we all prepare the fire wood, chairs, food, drinks & sit out in the beautiful winter wonder land watching that sparkling white stuff gently fall out of the sky. We have about five months out of 12 to partake in this wonderful event..........

Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David

ps: Then with half a snout full http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/eek.gif we fire up our IT legal snow blowers & blow that white shit clear to HELL. & it melts. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

[Bill Miller]

In any event, I believe that while the concept of qualifying/non-qualifying races has merit, the National/Regional division serves the club better. With two distinct levels of competition, those drivers who are looking to start a career in racing have a better chance of being recognized. Kind of like the major and minor leagues in other sports.



Bill,

That's where the flaw in the logic is, the Regional / National distinction does not mean that their are two distinct levels of competition. Especially not when you have one very popular category that only gets to play in one arena.

If anything, I feel that making all categories National (or better yet, just have Club Racing categories that have a rules section (Competition Specifications) in the GCR. All such cars are eligible to compete in National Championship qualifying races. Other, more localized categories (e.g. ITE, SRX7, RS, etc.) would be allowed to compete in the non-qualifying races in the Regions / Divisions that recognized those categories.

With some of the quality drivers/cars out there in IT today, you can't say that Regional racing is a lower level of competition than National racing. That would be like saying that you're not at the top of the heap unless you drive one of the fastest types of cars (e.g. GT-1, FA, CSR, etc.).

As far as the argument that IT cars should just be allowed to run as Prod cars, at Nationals, how does that benefit anyone? If anything, it's a poor attempt at a cheap fix for an arbitrarry problem. Prod cars are Prod cars and IT cars are IT cars. They have different levels of prep, why would you expect them to compete against each other? Now, I know someone will say that you already have that in Prod vis-a-vis full-prep vs. limited-prep. But a full-prep Prod car is closer to a limited-prep Prod car than an IT car is to a limited-prep Prod car. Not to mention, that I think you stand a better chance of doing away w/ the Regional / National distinction than getting IT cars to run as Prod cars w/o any changes.

IT pays a big portion of the freight for Club Racing, it's time that it was given the same status as the rest of the categories in the GCR. Not to mention that I'm sure you would see 40+ car fields in ITS / ITA, and probably 30+ (maybe 40+) car fields in ITB / ITC, if they were at the Runoffs. BTW, how big were the IT fields at the '04 ARRC?

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[DavidM]

04 ARRC:

28 cars in ITB/ITC
32 cars in ITA/IT7
28 in ITS


By the way, I think anybody who says they race "just for fun" better stop and smell what they are shoveling. If you were just racing for fun then you wouldn't care if that guy in front of you beats you or not. In fact, why would you even try to pass anyone? You might as well do Solo 1. Racing is by nature competitive. That's why it's called racing. My main goal is to have fun, but I sure as hell want to finish as high up as I can.

David

[Ron Earp]

In comparison, how large are Prod fields at events? Prod seems small to me, but maybe I am going to the wrong races.

------------------
Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey ITS
1/2 a 260Z ITS

[racer14itc]

If IT went national I think you could cut the car counts in half. I used to race ITC, and ran about 10 races per year. When I switched to prod, I ran 8-10 regional races per year. Then I started running nationals, and run 5-6 races per year plus the Runoffs. I don't run REGIONALS any more - too expensive to run both series during the year. Also remember that I can't realistically run 10 nationals a year, due to the fact there aren't as many during the year (10 nationals vs. 20+ SARRC races here in the SEDIV), and the tracks are scattered all over the division and they don't hold many nationals at the same track during the year (1, 2 or at most 3 - Roebling).

I wish IT would be a national class, it would be fun to watch (and maybe race in it again). But please remember this isn't a "IT is not national and it's because the prod fields are small and won't give up their spot" thing. There are twenty OTHER classes in national racing, a lot of which have smaller participation than production. Why do some of you hate production cars/classes so much? As a prod driver, I don't understand it. There seems to be a real animosity or jealousy here. I am not doing anything to keep IT a regional class, so please don't paint us prod racers all as "bad guys". I used to be one of "YOU GUYS"!

The grass always seems greener on the other side of the fence too. Ask yourself: why do you want IT to become a national class? So you can race for a national championship? So you race MORE during the year? (I wish I had the $$$ to run more races) So IT can have some sort of "legitimacy" in SCCA's eyes?

Trust me, if IT went national, it wouldn't be all rosey. The cost of being competitive would shoot up, 80% of the IT cars finishing up front in nationals would be DQ'd for everything from missing washer bottles to missing passenger door glass to umpteen other "non-performance" items, not to mention the blatent cheating going on. A lot of participants would disappear very quickly from national racing because of the non-compliance issue. Why do you think some fast IT cars don't show up at the ARRC??? http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif Spec Miata will suffer through this next season in its first season of national racing, you watch. My prediction is that the SM winner in '06 doesn't make it through the tech shed. We'll see...

So in summary, I'm for IT becoming a national class. But I think that it wouldn't be as great as some of you think it will be. Lastly, quit picking on the prod guys as if they're your enemy. What did they ever do to you??

MC
#14 GP VW Scirocco


[This message has been edited by racer14itc (edited April 19, 2005).]

[Knestis]

Ack! Prod guy! Prod guy! http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

K

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
We have about five months out of 12 to partake in this wonderful event..........

Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David

Hey Dave, trade ya for a hurricane. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif



------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[wbp]

Mark, you had an excellently prepared ITC car and now you have the same type car excellently prepared for limited prep Production. For consideration on this subject, could you tell us the difference in preparation costs? Not dollars of course, just precentage.

[ddewhurst]

***Hey Dave, trade ya for a hurricane.***

Greg, being that those hurricanes suck do ya think guy could guide one of them over a hole in the ice & suck the fish out of the lake ? http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/biggrin.gif Dynamite works great for fishing for Trout in a stream. Ya find a big ol bend in the stream, lite the dynamite which is secured to a weight, drop the thing in the stream, run down stream & wait for the Trout to surface & flow to ya. Learned this from an ol boy out of the hills of........... Can't say where because some of those people are IT racers.

Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David

ps: Sorry for thaken this thread on a tangent.

[seckerich]

Who says you need to change anything but the schedule at the runoffs to include IT? Just take the top XXX number of cars from each regions races as we do now for points and let the top ones go to the runoffs. They manage to stretch it out forever as it is and would have no problem fitting a few more groups in. Keep the IT classes as regional until the runoffs and just send the invitations to the top in points. No worries about the overcrowding at nationals or loss of competitors at regionals. Last I checked all the same classes as national PLUS all the regional only classes run on any given regional weekend and we get done by dark. Only difference is we actually see the other cars in our class!!! Win - Win situation for participation numbers at the runoffs.

Steve Eckerich
ITS Speedsource RX7

[racer14itc]

Originally posted by wbp:
Mark, you had an excellently prepared ITC car and now you have the same type car excellently prepared for limited prep Production. For consideration on this subject, could you tell us the difference in preparation costs? Not dollars of course, just precentage.

Bill, don't be silly, my wife reads this forum...I can't do that!

Just kidding, she doesn't care what I spend...

Racing/building a G-prod car vs. an ITC car (Scirocco), the preparation cost difference is in primarily two areas: transmission and engine.

The suspension on my GP car is actually CHEAPER than the one on my ITC if you can believe that. I use non-adjustable race threaded body Bilsteins on the GP car and used special double adjustable Konis inserts w/ coil over sleeves on the ITC car (thanks to the silly IT rules...). The Bilsteins are about 1/2 of what the Koni setup was.

Anyway, the transmission is more expensive on the prod car because of the alternate gears that are permitted. One time expense though, after that the maintenance costs are the same. The gearset costs about $300 more than a stock ITC gearset. (It's made from a combination of ITC and Rabbit GTI transmission components).

Engine: definitely more expensive to BUILD, but maintenance is about the same. I just tore down the engine I have been using for three seasons. In those three seasons I put in one set of rings. Camshafts: $125 vs. $100 for a G-cam for ITC. The biggest difference in build costs in the motor is the cylinder head work (porting, etc.), race valves, lighter valve train components, etc. Probably about $1000 more to build the prod cylinder head vs. the ITC head. However, limited prep would end up only a little more than an ITC head. The rods are stock rods, lightened, polished and balanced. I had my ITC rods balanced (not lightened, that would be against the rules...), so the difference is in the labor to lighten and polish the rods. I use the same ARP rod bolts, ARP head studs and ARP main studs in both engines.

Fuel injection system: no difference. Same setup works for both. I hand polished the throttle body for the prod car myself: cost = $5 for abrasive supplies.

Tires can be slightly more expensive, but only if you want to spend the money. The hardest Hoosier slick compond (R55) will last every bit as long as a Hoosier R3S03 did, if properly heat cycled.

Race gas is required in prod, so that's about $30 more per weekend (10 gals @$5 VS. $2 per gallon).

You could build my car today for less than $15K, and it finished in the top 10 at the Runoffs last year, and I'm hoping to do better than that this year. Try doing that in an ITS or even a Spec Miata at the ARRC (or at the Runoffs next season in the case of the Spec Miata).

A limited prep 1st gen Honda CRXSi (that also runs in GP) could probably be built for the same $15K and finish in the top 10 at the Runoffs in GP as well.

In 2001 I won the ITC SARRC championship (with a little luck). Over the span of a few weeks that winter, I did the following things to the car to convert it to a GProd car:

Took out the 1.6 ITC engine, and put in a former 1.5 ITC engine I bought for $400 (built by Harry Puckett). I decked the block .035" (at a cost of about $50), put an IT legal cylinder head on it with a mild race cam and heavy duty valve springs. Total Cost: $650

Put on a set of Heim ends on the end of stock VW steering arms, and drilled the steering arms for 1/2" bolts. Total cost: about $100. This bumpsteered the car.

Close ratio transmission installed in ITC gearbox w/ limited slip (about $300 in parts and labor to build the 5th gearset). Total (marginal) cost: $500 (transmission needed a rebuild anyway).

Took off the bumpers, headlights, door glass, winding mechanisms, etc. Stripped the dash, interior the rest of the way. Made some flat plates for headlights out of scrap aluminum. Cost: $0

Put Hoosier R55 slicks on my ITC wheels, cost difference: $0 from a new set of R3S03 which I would have bought anyway.

Made some rear window straps from 1" aluminum from Lowe's. Cost: about $5.

Already had the fire system in the ITC car.

The car went on to win 6 out 7 GP SARRC races in 2002, and went 3-5 seconds a lap faster than I ran in ITC at every track I went to that season.

The exact same thing could probably be done with an 1st gen Civic or CRX Si as well.

MC


------------------
Mark Coffin
#14 GP BSI Racing/Action Digital/Airborn Coatings/Krispy Kreme VW Scirocco
http://pages.prodigy.net/Scirocco14gp



[This message has been edited by racer14itc (edited April 19, 2005).]

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by wbp:
Mark, you had an excellently prepared ITC car and now you have the same type car excellently prepared for limited prep Production. For consideration on this subject, could you tell us the difference in preparation costs? Not dollars of course, just precentage.

Just to clarify, Mark's GP car is a full-prep car.



------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[RacerBill]

Bill Miller:

I did not mean to imply that two levels of competition (National vs Regional) meant two skill levels. And I strongly apologize to any drivers who took my statement that way. But rather two levels of committment, and opportunity. I agree that the majority of cars that are classed today should be allowed to race in both National and Regional races. That might necessitate the combining of some of the less active classes (SCCA has already set president by combining GT4 & GT5). But as I said earlier, the classes will continue to evolve, as they have over the 60 years that SCCA has been in existance.

Six regional races with a resonable level of competency qualifies a racer for a National license. The GCR also states that one does not even have to run any National races to keep their National license. Therefore the National/Reginal license distinction exists primarily to insure that drivers have a certain level of experince when racing in National races. So, since running Nationals is not a requirement to keep ones license, National races are in effect qualifying races, and Regionals, non-qualifying. At least that is my opinion.

And this is my thought on allowing IT classes at National races. Increasing the number and variety of venues to race at, along with the exposure of the runoffs will bring more cars and drivers (especially new members) in IT.

Slightly off thread, and not to be derogatory to Production car owners or drivers, but look at the intent of Production classes thirty years ago and where they are today. So what's to say that the original intent of IT (that it remain Regional only) is cast in stone and can't change?

Completely off thread - I managed to pass both of the guys I race regularly with every Monday night (they are usually 1 to 1.5 seconds a lap faster than I am, and one is a SCCA National champion) in our last heat last night. Yeah!!!!! Can;t wait to get the car back from the chassis shop.


------------------
Bill Stevens
Mbr 103106
BnS Racing
83 ITA Shelby Dodge Charger

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by racer14itc:
I wish IT would be a national class, it would be fun to watch (and maybe race in it again). But please remember this isn't a "IT is not national and it's because the prod fields are small and won't give up their spot" thing. .... Why do some of you hate production cars/classes so much? As a prod driver, I don't understand it. There seems to be a real animosity or jealousy here. I am not doing anything to keep IT a regional class, so please don't paint us prod racers all as "bad guys". I used to be one of "YOU GUYS"!


MC, it's just a lack of big picture thinking...no animosity intended...I don't think so at least! Many IT guys rarely see national car counts, but they DO see big IT fields, and at the same races, their closest cousins, the Prod guys, have maybe 12 cars total. Then they see the Runoffs on TV, and the whole Prod thing looks a little sketchy there as well. Add to that that the old Prod cars are often seen as the poster children of the "old school good old boys are whats wrong with SCCA" attitude, and you have the origin of the bias, I bet. Trust me...you are preaching to the choir when you tell me that other classes have issues as well.




....80% of the IT cars finishing up front in nationals would be DQ'd for everything from missing washer bottles to missing passenger door glass to umpteen other "non-performance" items, not to mention the blatent cheating going on. A lot of participants would disappear very quickly from national racing because of the non-compliance issue.



And the problem is??? Listen...if a guy quits racing altogether because he has to go to the trouble of putting back some door glass he shouldn't have taken out in the first place, then he has issues! Sure .....spend $10K a year racing but call foul over $15??? And I would be THRILLED to get rid of the blatant cheaters!! Good freaken riddance! I won't get into it here, but yes, some of the rules are dorky, but in the end, they are minor issues in the grand scheme of things.




Why do you think some fast IT cars don't show up at the ARRC??? http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif


And they are not missed. Keep in mind though that even at the ARRCs running a hugely cheated up motor is like shooting fish in a barrel... a little more close scrutiny couldn't hurt.



So in summary, I'm for IT becoming a national class. But I think that it wouldn't be as great as some of you think it will be.


I agree, but for different reasons.

1- Big picture stuff.....the whole reg/nat thing is thorny, because of the SCCA/Region infrastructure. Re-orging the whole thing could spell financial trouble for certain regions. There is even an up, and a downside to that as well!

2- Don't think the Runoffs will grow to include more classes!!!! NO way...if anything, it needs to shrink...it's really too long now. I bet the Grand Poobahs would be thrilled to find a way to cut it to 3 days...maybe top 21 classes go to the big show??

3- I still think that the whole documentation thing for the older and more obscure cars is an issue. I can't remember the specifics, but there are cars out there that are getting a freebie, or gift, in the cam dept due to lack of factory documentation. Wish I could cite a good example, but it IS an issue.

All in all, I think it would benefit the club to do away with the silly two level system, and to feature the best racing at the biggest, most public club level event.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited April 19, 2005).]

[Geo]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
***What's winter?***

Winter would be that time of the year when the temp is maybe 5* below zero, we all prepare the fire wood, chairs, food, drinks & sit out in the beautiful winter wonder land watching that sparkling white stuff gently fall out of the sky. We have about five months out of 12 to partake in this wonderful event..........

Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David

ps: Then with half a snout full http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/eek.gif we fire up our IT legal snow blowers & blow that white shit clear to HELL. & it melts. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

David, I don't think you've ever made me laugh so much!

Prosit! http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/images/smilies/beerchug.gif


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by RacerBill:
Bill Miller:

I did not mean to imply that two levels of competition (National vs Regional) meant two skill levels. And I strongly apologize to any drivers who took my statement that way. But rather two levels of committment, and opportunity. I agree that the majority of cars that are classed today should be allowed to race in both National and Regional races. That might necessitate the combining of some of the less active classes (SCCA has already set president by combining GT4 & GT5). But as I said earlier, the classes will continue to evolve, as they have over the 60 years that SCCA has been in existance.




Fair enough Bill. But, to clarify, GT 4 and GT 5 were combined into GT L (GT Lite) as a way to keep those cars running Nationals. There is a requirement that a National class meet participation levels, to remain a National class. These classes didn't, and rather than remove their National status, they were combined to make one class. I don't know all the details, but adjustments were made to both classes to provide a level playing field.

And I always found that interesting about a National license. You never have to run a National race in order to get, or keep, a National license. I bet there are a lot of racers out there that hold National licenses, that haven't raced a National in years (yet continue to race Regionals).



------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[zracre]

If IT pays the bulk of the bills for scca then why cant we get better policing...i remember the cheating a few years back in ITB in florida region and CFR...cant get more blatant than that!!! if you leave it up to the drivers to protest that will not always happen as someone will be more prone to just say well if they are doing it i will too!! instead of protest. i think they should set a small budget for regions to police the cars better...atlanta has a real strict tech shed and id like to see more of that...better coverage of the ARRC in the sports car magazine would help too....maybe even a quick mention of IT (and all regional only classes) and a quick video blurb during the runoffs coverage to show that there is a way to race your car on a budget and it does not have to be national...while im rambling on i think they also need to give workers more incentive...without them there is no racing...

Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[ddewhurst]

***And I always found that interesting about a National license. You never have to run a National race in order to get, or keep, a National license. I bet there are a lot of racers out there that hold National licenses, that haven't raced a National in years (yet continue to race Regionals).***

Bill, if a person is a Regional racer & has intent to do some National racing how do you do that without a National licence ? It takes 4 Regionals to keep the National licence current. I hold a National licence so that if a situation ride would become available I could do the race.

Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David

[Bill Miller]

Dave,

I understand what you're saying. I just said that I find it interesting. I don't think we really need to have a Regional / National license grade difference. And now that I think about it a bit more, why are there different standards? If it's ok for someone to get a comp. license after 2 rookie races, why shouldn't they be allowed to race in any race (Regional or National)? It's ok to turn someone lose in a Regional w/ a GT1 Corvette, after 2 races, but not a National? This whole 2-tier thing needs to really go away.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[ddewhurst]

****And now that I think about it a bit more, why are there different standards?****

Bill, all of we IT upstarts want to screw with TRADITION.........:D

[rjohnson999]

You ran this same idea over a year ago. It was bogus then. It's bogus now. There is a significant difference between National and Regional racing in most classes in much of the country. We have national rules to make it possible for drivers and stewards to move freely around the country. Whatever your local situation is, it doesn't justify the change you're proposing.


Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Dave,

I understand what you're saying. I just said that I find it interesting. I don't think we really need to have a Regional / National license grade difference. And now that I think about it a bit more, why are there different standards? If it's ok for someone to get a comp. license after 2 rookie races, why shouldn't they be allowed to race in any race (Regional or National)? It's ok to turn someone lose in a Regional w/ a GT1 Corvette, after 2 races, but not a National? This whole 2-tier thing needs to really go away.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
You ran this same idea over a year ago. It was bogus then. It's bogus now.
Fine....tell us why....



There is a significant difference between National and Regional racing in most classes in much of the country.

And that "significant difference" is?? More? better? faster? what?? Enlighten us...

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited April 20, 2005).]

[gran racing]

I too am very curious what the difference is. It's interesting especially when you look at people who run IT and World Challenge or other Pro racing.

My biggest concern would be the possible increase in costs to be competitive. I would love to see things done to make it even more affordable for people to get into. I guess I just don't see the benefits being worthwhile the risks and possible issues that would arise from the change. Yes, I would love to see the ARRC (NARRC and other regional championships that may exist) to grow in popularity and exposure.

Without going off topic too much, but since it was mentioned...it is too bad when people say that the only reason a person doesn't run the ARRC is because it is probably an illegal car. I would agree if the person was local to Atlanta and never showed, but for many of us the length of tow makes the event less enticing. Yes, I'm fairly sure I'll go down there this year but future years? (24 hours total plus of towing doesn't sound like much fun to me) Oh, I must be planning on adding the illegal goodies after this season. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif It is too bad there isn't more policing in other events to avoid this assumption amoung other things.

Just curious, is IT racing much different in other areas besides the N.E.? Maybe it is and I'm just viewing IT it based on what my experiences are here.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
You ran this same idea over a year ago. It was bogus then. It's bogus now. There is a significant difference between National and Regional racing in most classes in much of the country. We have national rules to make it possible for drivers and stewards to move freely around the country. Whatever your local situation is, it doesn't justify the change you're proposing.




Yeah, I'd like to hear the reasons as well. And what's w/ the "move freely around country" comment? I can't even begin to figure out where that came from. Last I looked, didn't matter what Region you ran out of, the ITS/A/B/C rules were the same, and it didn't matter what your Region of record was, as long as you had a valid Regional Competition license, you can run at any Regional, at any track in the country. That like some pretty 'free movement' opportunity to me.


------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Knestis]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
... It was bogus then. It's bogus now. There is a significant difference between National and Regional racing in most classes in much of the country. We have national rules to make it possible for drivers and stewards to move freely around the country. Whatever your local situation is, it doesn't justify the change you're proposing.

I'll go a step beyond what some other responses have been. The above is just wrong in a lot of ways.

Any differences between Regional and National racing are artificial, created only by the arbitrary distinction made between the two. I could do either with any number of cars, for any number of reasons, on any kind of budget so there is NO substantive difference, that I can figure out. There are policy outcomes and unanticipated consequences that arise out of the distinction but if the two-tiered system went away, so would competitors' responses to them.

(This is NOT to suggest that a different plan wouldn't result in different consequences, of course.)

The fact that the bulk of Club Racing classes are eligible to run both Regionals and Nationals pretty much makes it clear that the "portability" issue isn't driving the division.

K

[eprodrx7]

You are all forgetting that National races are on average twice as long as regionals. I see this as the largest hurdle in adding IT to the Nat. program. Then again we could loose a few Nat. classes also...

[zracre]

We race touring cars not showroom stock cars...any way you slice it racing is expensive...we are allowed to modify our motors...any racing class where motor mods are permitted it is going to be expensive to be competitive...if you race the same car for many years expect it to become less competitive with the newer cars in class...and not complain that the newer cars are pushing the older cars out...I sold my ITB GTI (A1) because it was getting less competitive with years...i cut my losses and built a competitive 1992 integra on a budget. could I afford it? no but did i do it anyways? yes. That is the nature of the sport...If you want affordable get a SM...a good driver can get past a 8 to 10 hp difference between a used motor and a sunbelt motor...and it is a spec class...that is why the field is usually separated by fractions...

Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[Geo]

Evan, even competitive SS engine and SM engines are expensive. They can be balanced and blueprinted as well. You just have to do it without machining. It's more expensive because it's done with a parts bin (careful parts selction).

I don't believe SM is inexpensive. Sure it's inexpensive if you just want to make up the numbers. IT is inexpensive if you have that philosoply. But if you want to run up front it's still going to be expensive. More so I'll bet now that SM is going national.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[rjohnson999]

You guys may want to rehash this. I don't. Go find the original discussion.

[lateapex911]

Then why'd you bring it up.

...and have the sack to back up unreasonable statements, provide a signature so your comments can be taken seriously, or return to whatever you were doing before....

http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/rolleyes.gif

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[zracre]

My point is that in those spec classes the power differences are not as tremendous as say an E36 BMW and a 280ZX...good luck spending a fortune to try to make the z car go as fast as a well prepped BMW...with a stock engine. My friend Chip down here in s fla races a spec miata with 105 hp. he usually is top 3 if not winning!! he is a pro driver, but it shows it can be done. I drove an SM at the 12 hours of homestead, my first time to drive a SM, and ran to 2nd on the opening lap and was able to pace 1st for most of my session...until the clutch master cyl decided to blow out. that car had 108 hp. my point is in most classes you dont need the big$$ motors and motronic etc to win...im winning with my stock motor and stock ecu. racing anything....bmx bicycles to gt1 cars is expensive. that is the nature of the sport...the most expensive thing i have found is keeping fresh hoosiers under the car...SM is a very big class now. I dont think you can spend more on a top running car now that it is nat than what people are spending now unless they change every part between races. i think you will still see the top drivers doing well, just in national. just a thought...

Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Then why'd you bring it up.

...and have the sack to back up unreasonable statements, provide a signature so your comments can be taken seriously, or return to whatever you were doing before....

http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/rolleyes.gif




Well Jake, maybe part of his handle is a representation of who he is. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/rolleyes.gif


------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[racer14itc]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Just to clarify, Mark's GP car is a full-prep car.


Good catch, Bill. I didn't even notice the "limited prep" part of Bill's statement!
http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/redface.gif

MC

[emwavey]

This has been a very interesting thread, one that I was hoping to skip to the end to find a satisfactory outcome... not here yet. So suffice to say I've read every "stinkin'" post. (no malice intended... just that I had to read them all http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

One idea that I like was to keep IT as a regional class, but allow the top drivers in each region a spot at the Runoffs. The only major hurdle to overcome is allowing two or three more run groups into the mix at "the big shabang".

Another thing that I was thinking about is that the reason we IT guys are interested in going to the big race is for "exposure" or something like a "world series" to race in.

I'm a total newbie so I don't know if this lends any lack of credibility to my perspective or not. A few years back, actually the first Lime Rock Memorial Day weekend I saw and took pictures of the ITA/ITS race that was interspirsed with the GT and Touring Races. I was totally captured by the idea of racing in front of a captive audience. A racing weekend with the Professional racers was a pipe dream.

I found out later this spot was taken by the Smelt Miata guys and I was extremely dissapointed. I find spec classes extremely boring to watch. Having a mix of cars is much more interesting to me... and I would gather that it's much more interesting to the non-racer spectator as well.

So what am I getting at? I'd say that either or both of these ideas would be a satisfactory "bone" for headquarters to throw at us. Give us a couple of spot-light races to run at... with the Speed GT and Touring folks, and/or invite the top IT guys to the National events.

If the SCCA is truely interested in gaining more into the folds of racing, then they need to flaunt it's entry-level racing program... IT.

As GA about holding up the CRX in that race a few years ago... did he spend mucho amounts of bucks to run? No, did he have fun? I'll bet sure as poo, he and (I think his name was) Shane had a blast.
http://www.pbase.com/emwavey/limerock_02

I think the IT folks are merely asking for the SCCA to put their money where their mouth is. "Get Real Fast"... how? The SCCA doesn't highlight the most popular entry-level racing... IT

-dave
8)

[zracre]

Good point! i think the reason we all race is for the satisfaction of running our cars and having fun...the ultimate goal is to win and maybe get some recognition out of it. IT is the cheapest way to race a touring type car in an event with other cool cars ( just like btcc speed touring gt etc)...i have a great feeling inside me when i win (and even if i dont but have fun and finish) and i carry that with me for days after. if SCCA would just give a little more coverage...even in sportscar magazine...it would be nice for our sport. maybe we should be sending emails to SCCA and ask them??? energy well spent. does anybody know how the british club racing scene is structured??? i have always wondered...

Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[This message has been edited by zracre (edited April 21, 2005).]

[rjohnson999]

I didn't bring it up. Miller did. As to the lack of a signature, sorry, I don't have to play by your rules here. You can dismiss me, but the point remains; National and Regional racing, for most classes in much of the country are two different animals and the group think on this among the IT community is little more than a trojan horse attempt to circumvent the GCR about IT being a regional only classification.


Originally posted by lateapex911:
Then why'd you bring it up.

...and have the sack to back up unreasonable statements, provide a signature so your comments can be taken seriously, or return to whatever you were doing before....

http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/rolleyes.gif

[rjohnson999]

What's the matter, Bill, can't deal with the issue so you resort to this?


Originally posted by Bill Miller:

Well Jake, maybe part of his handle is a representation of who he is. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/rolleyes.gif

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
I didn't bring it up. Miller did. As to the lack of a signature, sorry, I don't have to play by your rules here. You can dismiss me, but the point remains; National and Regional racing, for most classes in much of the country are two different animals and the group think on this among the IT community is little more than a trojan horse attempt to circumvent the GCR about IT being a regional only classification.



Mr. Johnson,

You make some wild claims, then get your shorts in a know when people ask you to substantiate them. Hmmm. And, you're right, you don't have to 'play by our rules here'. And you're also right, in that you will be dismissed as an anonymous hack that doesn't have the sack to stand up for his own beliefs.

As far as National and Regional being so different, I guess that's why there are several areas of the country where they have to run Nationals in conjunction w/ Regionals, because they can't get enough cars to the track to pay the freight on their own. And you want to talk about bogus? What's bogus is claiming that the IT community is trying to circumvent the GCR. If IT goes National, it will be something that's done w/ in the constructs of the GCR. There is a way to have rules changed, and if the rule is changed, it will be done by the book. But since you brought up circumventing the GCR, how about the National classes that were still allowed to run as National classes, even though they didn't meet their required participation numbers when they were on probation? Or did you conveniently forget about that?

As far as my earlier comment, if the jimmy hat, err, I mean 'shoe' fits, wear it!



------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
I didn't bring it up. Miller did. ....

Uhhh...revisionist history, but hey, since you haven't actually referenced or backed anything up, how can we actually know?


As to the lack of a signature, sorry, I don't have to play by your rules here......
... You can dismiss me,....

Done!

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited April 22, 2005).]

[Tom Donnelly]

Is it just me or has this topic taken a weird turn? What's a jimmy hat? Where's the black helicopters? Is the 999 really supposed to be a 666?

Where's Rod Serling when you need him?

It seems to me that some regional classes differ from region to region. Most of the IT classes are the same. IT7 is different on the west coast compared to east, or am I mistaken. So it seems to me that ITC thru ITS are the same coast to coast so they are already a "national" class in concept, or close to it. Groups like ITE or SPU/SPO differ or don't exist so there is a difference there.

I dunno, I look at IT with an "if it ain't broke don't fix it" attitude right now. Just let me race and don't force me to put my car out to pasture just because its 35 years old.

Tom Donnelly
1970 ITS 240z
2004 Dodge 3500 tow vehicle (finally got one)

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Tom Donnelly:
Is it just me or has this topic taken a weird turn? What's a jimmy hat?


If we told you, we'd have to kill you! http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/biggrin.gif


------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Tom Donnelly]

If we told you, we'd have to kill you! http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/biggrin.gif


I found the answer on the internet so I'm safe for now!

Tom

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Tom Donnelly:
...Where's Rod Serling when you need him?...

Where's my aluminum foil?

G

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Tom Donnelly:
If we told you, we'd have to kill you! http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/biggrin.gif


I found the answer on the internet so I'm safe for now!

Tom


In more ways than one!!! http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/biggrin.gif


------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[rjohnson999]

Shorts in a know (knot?)? Hardly, but I think you have a serious problem being rejected.


Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Mr. Johnson,

You make some wild claims, then get your shorts in a know when people ask you to substantiate them. Hmmm. And, you're right, you don't have to 'play by our rules here'. And you're also right, in that you will be dismissed as an anonymous hack that doesn't have the sack to stand up for his own beliefs.

As far as National and Regional being so different, I guess that's why there are several areas of the country where they have to run Nationals in conjunction w/ Regionals, because they can't get enough cars to the track to pay the freight on their own. And you want to talk about bogus? What's bogus is claiming that the IT community is trying to circumvent the GCR. If IT goes National, it will be something that's done w/ in the constructs of the GCR. There is a way to have rules changed, and if the rule is changed, it will be done by the book. But since you brought up circumventing the GCR, how about the National classes that were still allowed to run as National classes, even though they didn't meet their required participation numbers when they were on probation? Or did you conveniently forget about that?

As far as my earlier comment, if the jimmy hat, err, I mean 'shoe' fits, wear it!

[zracre]

yep...thread took a wierd turn...
http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif


Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[p99ro]

2 Cents. Remember what happend to time when Miata`s came onto the scene. Less track time. So that being said if you include more classes you don`t get longer days. And yes if you want to run Nat. Then get a car to do so. IT is IT and is were it is.
Just my thoughts.
Scott CRX si NER ITA.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
Shorts in a know (knot?)? Hardly, but I think you have a serious problem being rejected.



And exactly what's been 'rejected'?

The whole Regional/National thing and branding a category as 'Regional forever' are Draconian and arbitrary. Why should poorly subscribed classes get a 'free pass'? Why are the rules thrown out the window to protect these classes?

I stand by my original proposal, do away w/ the Regional/National license distinction, make all classes that have their specifications defined in the GCR eligible to run in any Club Racing event. Change Regional / National races to Non-Qualifying / Qualifying races (for purposes of earning points towards a Runoffs invitation), and take the top XX classes for any given year, and give them the invitations to the Runoffs. If you want, keep the ARRC, and let those classes that don't get invited to the Runoffs run there. Someone made the analogy to the NCCA basketball tournament, and the NIT. I think it's a valid analogy, if you want to go to the 'big show', you have to earn the right (as a class, not just as a driver). Make the cutoff a month before the Runoffs, and that's how you determine the classes that go.

And yes, if the IT classes become eligible to race at the Runoffs, it will cost more to win. But I don't know if it will cost more than it does to win the ARRC. But that's what a National Championship should be about, the best driver in the best car. You want to win, you better have both the driver and the car very well developed.

And I still contend that this will NOT drive up the cost for the people that just want to go out and race for 'fun'. To say that top-level IT cars/drivers will show up at the Non-qualifying races, just to dominate, is not really valid. There are too many examples that indicate that this won't happen. All you have to do is look at all the other National classes that run Regionals. When it's a Regional-only weekend, you just don't see that many people that run Nationals showing up. In the Prod races I've run at Regionals, there are usually never any National-level cars there. There's just really no reason for them to come. It costs more money, puts more wear and tear on the car, exposes the car to more chances of an incident, and it doesn't get them any closer to the Runoffs. I really feel that you'll see the same thing w/ IT.

It also doesn't change anything significant about how races are currently run. The Qualifying races would still have to meet the current standards for National races (in terms of time, distance, etc.) Entry fees for Qualifying races will probably still be higher than those for Non-qualifying races, so that doesn't change either. And for those that are going to complain that it will cost more if you want to run the Qualifying races, that's true, but you also make that choice yourself, and, what you're getting for that extra $$$, is the opportunity to go to the Runoffs, and take your shot at the National Championship.

And for those areas of the country, where you have combined Regional/National races, in the same weekend, you wouldn't necessarily need to keep it that way. Sure, keep the run groups for the classes that don't have their specs defined in the GCR (e.g. ITE, SRX7, IT7, etc.), but let everyone else run it as a Qualifying race. Or, don't change anything, and it becomes a dual Qualifying / Non-qualifying race weekend. The only thing that would need to be done, would be to add the IT classes to run groups on the Qualifying side.

I've talked to other drivers that like this idea, and think it's good for the overall health and growth of the club. We will be working on putting a formal proposal together to send to the CRB and BoD. Anybody that's interested, you're welcome to get involved.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[rjohnson999]

IIRC, your argument about there being no need to maintain the difference between national and regional licenses was rejected in the original discussion because it ignored the need to separate novice from more experienced drivers for the sake of both.

And there is nothing arbitrary about IT being regional. Or at least not to anyone with any memory of how IT came about.

[Knestis]

That's kind of the point. The question at hand is sort of, "by what criteria do we decide what classes get the attention currently afforded 'National' classes?"

Could it be possible that "It's the best subscribed" or "It has the closest competition" are better standards than "It's been that way since IT was born to forever-Regional status?"

K

[p99ro]

Hi it`s Mr 2 cents. I was talking to Ray Leechee about this thread and commented to him about it. He came back to me with a though, if he does not mind. "How about a national IT class. racing On it`s own." Then I gues bring it to the "Big Show" Run it on Friday`s 5 classes lots of track time and some stiff comp. Yes Hard rules. Water bottles. I would like to see stiffer pentalies on cheater`s with round top pistons who take points away from others and set track records while cheating and letting those records stand. You know Base A Ball. I`ve started spending more money to be able to stay in the top 10 of the feild because thats where I want to be. I would like to have some kind of IT Nat. In this manor. or something close. But as we know SCCA. I`ll be 80 before anything changes. But Time is an important thing. I don`t like paying tons of money to run 30mins because we have to many classes in a day of or 8 hours on track time.
Scott who probaly isn`t making any sence but this is an open format Haven. CRXsi ITA NER.

[gran racing]

If IT went national (or what ever you want to call it), would the racing events be even more subscribed to? It is not uncommon to have a 300 car regional weekend. People have said that many national drivers don't show at the regional race weekends. So what happens to these car count numbers now?

I totally understand the desire for SCCA to give attention to the groups that are well subscribed to, but am still not convinced that lumping all classes together is the best solution.

I also agree that I would like to see IT get more exposure. There are some things that could be done as short term goals such as getting more coverage of the ARRC. Have FasTrak provide more indepth coverage of the event; GrassRoots Motorsports does some but figure out a way for them to do even more; what about other magazines? I don't think we have to wait till SCCA re-writes the bible to obtain some of the things we're looking for. The idea of running IT with a WC race would be awesome. And not the 9th race out of 9 during the day. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/frown.gif



------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
IIRC, your argument about there being no need to maintain the difference between national and regional licenses was rejected in the original discussion because it ignored the need to separate novice from more experienced drivers for the sake of both.

And there is nothing arbitrary about IT being regional. Or at least not to anyone with any memory of how IT came about.

Mr. Johnson,

Your arguement just doesn't hold water. You're claiming that National drivers are more experienced than Regional drivers, and need to be 'protected' from one another. As I stated before, it's ok to turn Joe Richboy loose w/ his GT1 or FA at a Regional on only a Novice book, but he needs so much more 'experience' to run Nationals? Just get over yourself already. But, to make you happy, you restrict people that don't run at least 3 or 4 races a year, to running only Non-qualifying races (yeah, I know, it's essentially a Regional / National distinction). Or better yet, you keep them on Novice status (Non-qualifying races only), until they've run 4 or 6 races.

And as far as things that happened when "IT came about", let's look at that. At that time, Prod prep rules weren't much different than where IT is today (weren't they still running on DOT tires?), there were no tube-frame, sihlouette (sp?) cars in GT, IT car were only required to have roll bars, and oh yeah, they were still considered dual-purpose (street / track) cars (anybody remember if they still had do to be licensed / registred for street use?), etc., etc.

Times change Mr. Johnson, that's a fact of life. How many of the other car categories are saddled w/ restrictions from 20 - 25 years ago?

And you still haven't offered up anything other than "That's what they decided 25 years ago" as to why IT shouldn't be given the opportunity to run Nationals. Which, BTW, was when a lot of the IT racers weren't even born yet, or were just taking the training wheels off their bicycles.

Just what are you afraid of Mr. Johnson? Is it that you may not get any easy path to 'The Big Show'? BTW, what kind of car DO you race? I know you don't have the sack to tell us who you are, but maybe you'll tell us about your car.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[ddewhurst]

At the risk of adding fuel to this fire I have a question. If the top 12 Production drivers & top 12 IT drivers were driving equally prepared cars within the same race which cream do you think would rise to the top ?

Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David

ps: Please tap on my head stone when IT becomes National. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/rolleyes.gif

[rjohnson999]

More like the argument you're trying to claim is mine doesn't hold water. My argument is that there needs to be a separation in club racing so that drivers can decide where they want to race and to provide a reasonable progression opportunity following driver's school. Ending that separation would have the effect of raising the barrier to SCCA participation and provide NASA, et al, with more opportunity.

There are drivers in SCCA who won't do Nationals and others who won't do Regionals. If we eliminate the separation we seriously risk alienating both. I don't think we need to be alienating any of our existing drivers.

As for the rest of your comments, anyone who thinks Prod cars were running DOT tires when IT was created has a serious problem with overall credibility. Engine prep rules for Prod were much more liberal than IT then or now.

What this reveals more than anything else, Bill, is your entirely self centered view of SCCA competition. Fine for a driver, but hopeless for creating and administering rules.


Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Mr. Johnson,

Your arguement just doesn't hold water. You're claiming that National drivers are more experienced than Regional drivers, and need to be 'protected' from one another. As I stated before, it's ok to turn Joe Richboy loose w/ his GT1 or FA at a Regional on only a Novice book, but he needs so much more 'experience' to run Nationals? Just get over yourself already. But, to make you happy, you restrict people that don't run at least 3 or 4 races a year, to running only Non-qualifying races (yeah, I know, it's essentially a Regional / National distinction). Or better yet, you keep them on Novice status (Non-qualifying races only), until they've run 4 or 6 races.

And as far as things that happened when "IT came about", let's look at that. At that time, Prod prep rules weren't much different than where IT is today (weren't they still running on DOT tires?), there were no tube-frame, sihlouette (sp?) cars in GT, IT car were only required to have roll bars, and oh yeah, they were still considered dual-purpose (street / track) cars (anybody remember if they still had do to be licensed / registred for street use?), etc., etc.

Times change Mr. Johnson, that's a fact of life. How many of the other car categories are saddled w/ restrictions from 20 - 25 years ago?

And you still haven't offered up anything other than "That's what they decided 25 years ago" as to why IT shouldn't be given the opportunity to run Nationals. Which, BTW, was when a lot of the IT racers weren't even born yet, or were just taking the training wheels off their bicycles.

Just what are you afraid of Mr. Johnson? Is it that you may not get any easy path to 'The Big Show'? BTW, what kind of car DO you race? I know you don't have the sack to tell us who you are, but maybe you'll tell us about your car.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
More like the argument you're trying to claim is mine doesn't hold water. My argument is that there needs to be a separation in club racing so that drivers can decide where they want to race and to provide a reasonable progression opportunity following driver's school. Ending that separation would have the effect of raising the barrier to SCCA participation and provide NASA, et al, with more opportunity.

There are drivers in SCCA who won't do Nationals and others who won't do Regionals. If we eliminate the separation we seriously risk alienating both. I don't think we need to be alienating any of our existing drivers.

As for the rest of your comments, anyone who thinks Prod cars were running DOT tires when IT was created has a serious problem with overall credibility. Engine prep rules for Prod were much more liberal than IT then or now.

What this reveals more than anything else, Bill, is your entirely self centered view of SCCA competition. Fine for a driver, but hopeless for creating and administering rules.




Johnson,

Do you even read, or are you so blinded by your position that you just can't see? My proposal provides a choice for people. You can run Qualifying races, or you can run Non-Qualifying races, or you can run both. It's the same opportunity that's given to all the other categories listed in the GCR, EXCEPT IT.

And, as I said, if you're really worried about 'throwing novice drivers to the wolves', restrict them to Non-qualifying races until they have 4-6 races under their belt. You talk about protecting the novice and experienced drivers from one another, which is why you don't want people to be able to race Nationals right away. Burried in that comment, is a disdain and disrespect for Regional racers as a whole, and IT races specifically. It's ok to throw some rookie on a Novice book into an ITS race w/ track record-holding, ARRC-winning drivers, but it's not ok to do it at a Naional? You really need to get over yourself and your bigoted attitude that Regional racers are 'inferior' to National racers.

As far as Prod cars racing on DOT tires 25 years ago, I did pose it as a question. And believe me, I'll be talking to people regarding the engine prep rules for Prod 25 years ago.

And, you still haven't told us what kind of car you race.


[This message has been edited by Bill Miller (edited April 25, 2005).]

[rjohnson999]

As I said before, your attitude is fine for a driver because you don't have to reconcile the diffrerent situations in different parts of the country and with different classes. CENDiv is contemplating splitting in part because the division wide regional championship series was more costly to run than trying to qualify for the runoffs and regional entries were falling. Area 5 created their own regional series and Area 4 took that as a green light to start the process.

That's strong refutation of your contention and strong support for my position.

That you would equate the ARRC to the Runoffs is an indication of just how parochial you are. SCCA has an excellent balance within the Club Racing program. That regional racing is something different from division to division is exactly what the rules envision. What regional racing has become in your neck of the woods isn't the way it's working everywhere.

Your argument is a bit like the early days of the IRL when its fans claimed their drivers were every bit as good as CART's by comparing the bottom of the CART grid to the top of the IRL grid.

If you want IT to become National, try another tack. This one will be resisted by a wide range of people from drivers to region officials to stewards and the more broadly based their experience within the club the more resistant they will be.


Originally posted by Bill Miller:

Johnson,

Do you even read, or are you so blinded by your position that you just can't see? My proposal provides a choice for people. You can run Qualifying races, or you can run Non-Qualifying races, or you can run both. It's the same opportunity that's given to all the other categories listed in the GCR, EXCEPT IT.

And, as I said, if you're really worried about 'throwing novice drivers to the wolves', restrict them to Non-qualifying races until they have 4-6 races under their belt. You talk about protecting the novice and experienced drivers from one another, which is why you don't want people to be able to race Nationals right away. Burried in that comment, is a disdain and disrespect for Regional racers as a whole, and IT races specifically. It's ok to throw some rookie on a Novice book into an ITS race w/ track record-holding, ARRC-winning drivers, but it's not ok to do it at a Naional? You really need to get over yourself and your bigoted attitude that Regional racers are 'inferior' to National racers.

As far as Prod cars racing on DOT tires 25 years ago, I did pose it as a question. And believe me, I'll be talking to people regarding the engine prep rules for Prod 25 years ago.

And, you still haven't told us what kind of car you race.


[This message has been edited by Bill Miller (edited April 25, 2005).]

[OTLimit]

The premise that IT racers aren't as good as 'National' drivers is bogus. In the national fields, you have many drivers who get exactly four starts and a few finishes and qualify for the Runoffs, and go there to be dog slow. Then you have people who race 10-20 (or more) races a year in IT who you deem not worthy of National status. What a crock.

Both regional and national classes have their good drivers, the guys/gals out to have fun, and the ones who are always at the edge of being a danger to others. But don't try to say that the danger zoners are all in the IT ranks, but most of us have seen evidence to the contrary.

The wall between National and Regional may make a nice line in the sand, and it probably is a good idea so that the folks that don't want to put forth the National effort can still have a good time. But don't disparage a CLASS (or 4 or 5) because you fear that a current national class might get bumped from the Runoffs due to a lack of participation. The last time I checked, most classes at the Runoffs were nowhere near over the track limit for participation.

------------------
Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
At the risk of adding fuel to this fire I have a question. If the top 12 Production drivers & top 12 IT drivers were driving equally prepared cars within the same race which cream do you think would rise to the top ?

Have Fun ;)
David

ps: Please tap on my head stone when IT becomes National. :rolleyes:

Well, David, without a bunch of research...(not gonna happen until next winter!), I can't oblige your request.

But let's look at an example or two. The ITA class has soome pretty good shoes...a guy who drives an Acura has won the Valvoline Cup (I think that's the proper name...it's pretty presitgious) for two or three years now, and recently won the ARRCs. Anthony Serra is his name. To win the ARRCs, he had to catch and pass a Bob Stretch...who seems to mix it up very well with the Auberlins and Kleinubings in SWC.

And of course we see Stretch running in IT ...not at the Runoffs though...

Eric Curran has had some (a lot) of pro rides, and has run near the front in SWC this year...a former ITB standout. But not a huge Runoffs competitor, but had some success when he tested the waters in Ohio, as I remember.

Do the guys at the Runoffs compare?? They sure do! The front guys are very very good. But you know, the fields aren't very deep in many classes. I don't think that you can look at a 15 car National Championship grid with over 7 seconds seperating 1st to even 12th, and automatically say that the talent runs very deep in National racing.

I dare say, that if IT were a category that could run at the Runoffs, there would be no doubt that ITS, ITA, probably B and maybe C would make the cut. AND, in two years time, you would see the IT races as being in the top 6 or so "races to watch", due to close competition and full fields.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
As I said before, your attitude is fine for a driver because

So Mr. Johnson, I wonder if it's safe to assume that you're not a driver??? http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/rolleyes.gif
CENDiv is contemplating splitting in part because the division wide regional championship series was more costly to run than trying to qualify for the runoffs and regional entries were falling. Area 5 created their own regional series and Area 4 took that as a green light to start the process.

That's strong refutation of your contention and strong support for my position.

Not really sure what that has to do w/ the issue at hand, nor do I see how it refutes anything I've said. At best, it may be an indication of a poorly run series. I'd wager that it probably costs more to run the MARRS series, hosted by the WDCR, (9 - 10 races, top 7 - 8 count towards the championship) than it does to qualify for the Runoffs (4 Starts, 3 Finishes), yet they don't seem to have a problem getting IT drivers to the track (even w/ a Regional SRX7 class, as well as SM and SSM). I've done the math before (and I'll happily do it again), but IIRC, the average class field size was between 15 and 20 cars. That's per IT class. When and where, other than the Runoffs, were there 15 - 20 EP cars in a field?


That you would equate the ARRC to the Runoffs is an indication of just how parochial you are.

And exactly where did I do that? Now you're just plain making things up.

Your argument is a bit like the early days of the IRL when its fans claimed their drivers were every bit as good as CART's by comparing the bottom of the CART grid to the top of the IRL grid.

There you go again, insulting Regional racers (especially the IT racers). Do you actually go to Regional races? I'm sure you have lots of friends there. Or do you not go because you feel that the quality of drivers/cars/racing is not up to your standards???


If you want IT to become National, try another tack. This one will be resisted by a wide range of people from drivers to region officials to stewards and the more broadly based their experience within the club the more resistant they will be.



It really doesn't matter what the Region officials or the stewards think, they're not the ones racing. It's their job to implement the rules and policies that come from the CRB and BoD. Who it matters to, are the drivers, CRB, and BoD.

Oh, still waiting to here what kind of car you race.


------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[rjohnson999]

I guess you really need to do some work on your SCCA history. Anyone who thinks region officials don't matter reveals a gross misunderstanding of the club structure.

Regions, not Topeka or the CRB or the BOD, put on races. That's where the real power is in the club.

Your view of how the driver progression should be structured has been suggested before. It fails the fundamental test of scheduling. Unless, of course, you're looking to kill off a bunch of classes and get down to about four run groups. Other clubs doing this, like EMRA, have much smaller entries that are clustered much differently than the SCCA region in the same market.

Many tracks, and therefore regions, are bound by local use limitations. Those restrictions are getting tighter, not loser. Let's see how you'd do a complete event schedule that gives all classes fair and meaningful track time. Let's see how you'd do a schedule that allows events at Lime Rock to support an entry with sub 40 car/group limits. Let's see how you'd safely group cars at a track that supports 100 car/group limits. Oh, and throw in some sponsor requirements for big events like the Rose Cup and June Sprints.

Just the CRB and BOD? You don't have a clue.


Originally posted by Bill Miller:
It really doesn't matter what the Region officials or the stewards think, they're not the ones racing. It's their job to implement the rules and policies that come from the CRB and BoD. Who it matters to, are the drivers, CRB, and BoD.

[Knestis]

With respect, your choice of words - "driver progression" - reveals your bias: You believe the notion that "Regional" drivers are somehow less than "National" drivers.

The reality is that just about any of us could qualify for a National ticket with just a minimal commitment. I got mine after fitting two schools and the requisite Regionals into my first season. I then ran two Nationals and qualified for my Pro license. Whee! I'm a PRO after doing, what - 6 whole races?

Any drivers out there who have never had anything "higher" than a Regional, who might have been better drivers than me?

As far as your scheduling argument? That's pretty funny - IT shouldn't be a National category because it's too well subscribed? The fields would be too big? I love it!

This whole conversation moves forward from the question, "What might it be like?" That same question presumest that it would look exactly like it does now.

K

[rjohnson999]

The problem for those putting your position forward is that it uses oversimplification in order to demonize my position. I've said several things here. One, that new drivers progress, two, that drivers make choices on where they want to race, three that different parts of the country have different needs and four, IT is not representative of all classes.

Each situation is served by separating Regional and National racing.

As to the issue of IT being over subscribed, how about sticking to a little intellectual honesty here and working to overcome the designation of Regional only if that's what you want to accomplish. Back door attempts to effect this kind of change will be resisted by forces strong enough to scuttle the effort and you won't even feel the knife.


Originally posted by Knestis:
With respect, your choice of words - "driver progression" - reveals your bias: You believe the notion that "Regional" drivers are somehow less than "National" drivers.

The reality is that just about any of us could qualify for a National ticket with just a minimal commitment. I got mine after fitting two schools and the requisite Regionals into my first season. I then ran two Nationals and qualified for my Pro license. Whee! I'm a PRO after doing, what - 6 whole races?

Any drivers out there who have never had anything "higher" than a Regional, who might have been better drivers than me?

As far as your scheduling argument? That's pretty funny - IT shouldn't be a National category because it's too well subscribed? The fields would be too big? I love it!

This whole conversation moves forward from the question, "What might it be like?" That same question presumest that it would look exactly like it does now.

K

[Greg Amy]

100?

Be careful what you wish for. Spec Miata got its wish, and before you could begin celebrating it the '99+ Miata was added - with virtually no membership notification or input, effective immediately. This, no doubt, was at the request of The Money (e.g., Mazda). To add insult to injury, we find that the guy running SpecMiata.com and another guy that works for Mazda Motorsports had already purchased and were preparing '99s for SM.

The car was "supposedly" throttled and weighted down sufficiently to be reviewed for future competition adjustment. Well, word has it that last weekend a '99 beat the SPR track record, and that another one came from the back of the field to around 8th position before getting punted.

Going high profile (National, TV coverage, sponsorship) has its advantages, but when The Money gets involved, things happen fast. Real fast.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
I guess you really need to do some work on your SCCA history. Anyone who thinks region officials don't matter reveals a gross misunderstanding of the club structure.

Regions, not Topeka or the CRB or the BOD, put on races. That's where the real power is in the club.

Your view of how the driver progression should be structured has been suggested before. It fails the fundamental test of scheduling. Unless, of course, you're looking to kill off a bunch of classes and get down to about four run groups. Other clubs doing this, like EMRA, have much smaller entries that are clustered much differently than the SCCA region in the same market.

Many tracks, and therefore regions, are bound by local use limitations. Those restrictions are getting tighter, not loser. Let's see how you'd do a complete event schedule that gives all classes fair and meaningful track time. Let's see how you'd do a schedule that allows events at Lime Rock to support an entry with sub 40 car/group limits. Let's see how you'd safely group cars at a track that supports 100 car/group limits. Oh, and throw in some sponsor requirements for big events like the Rose Cup and June Sprints.

Just the CRB and BOD? You don't have a clue.




Ok Mr. Johnson, let's analyze this response. As Mr. Knestis so aptly pointed out, your bias agains Regional drivers colors your entire position.

Let's look at the 'the fundamental test of scheduling' (I had no idea there was such a test). We're talking about adding 4 more classes to a Qualifying Race (they're already part of the Non-Qualifying races, so no need to worry about them there). Granted, these would probably be very well subscribed classes, and may require additional run groups.

It actually becomes a simple matter of numbers. Those classes that bring the most cars to the track, are the ones that get to run. It may not be popular, but it would certainly be more equitable. Just for an example, I looked at the April, '04 results from the Summit Point National. Group 2 (CSR/DSR/S2) had 16 starters (half of which were S2 cars). Why should a group that can only bring that many cars to the track get the slot over a group that could easily bring 3x that many cars to the track? Do you consider that 'fair'? BTW, you could have groups the SRF/DSR/CSR/S2 cars together and still had room. However, I do realize that this won't be true at every race at every track, so I don't hold this up as evidence, merely cite it as an example.

And your comments about tracks w/ limits doesn't really hold any water either. Let's use LRP as an example (since you brought it up). Run group size is limited to 40 cars, per the 25 cars per mile regulation. How is it currently handled for a National, if say, 45 SRF's show up? I'm pretty sure that only the first 40 cars to register, are allowed on the track. Sure, if you're #41, you can register, and show up at the track, but you're only going to get to run if somebody ahead of you doesn't run. However, I'm sure all this has already been taken into consideration w/ SM being added for '06. Pretty safe bet that they're going to get their own run group at tracks like LRP, Beaver Run, or Summit Point.

As far as the safety issue of what cars are group w/ what, there are plenty of races out there today, w/ screwy run groups (as the Prod folks how they like running w/ SRF or SS). And the response from Topeka has been that it's up to the race organizers to address the issues of run groups. So much for your much lauded officials.


Other clubs doing this, like EMRA, have much smaller entries that are clustered much differently than the SCCA region in the same market.


I've quoted this again, because after reading it for about the 10th time, I still can't figure out how it is germane to the discussion at hand. What exactly is EMRA 'doing'? If you're talking about the fact that they don't have different license grades, why should they, they're a local organization that has no distinction between cars, drivers, or races. And you lambast me for supposedly equating the Runoffs to the ARRC. You compare the SCCA to EMRA, now there's a laugh. Note: No disrespect intended towards the EMRA folks. They're a fine group (it's who I started racing with), that fill a need, and provide a valuable service to their customers. And please provide data to support your claim regarding entry clustering.


Just the CRB and BOD? You don't have a clue.


Please re-read my post, I said drivers, CRB, and BoD.



------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Bill Miller]

Each situation is served by separating Regional and National racing.

As to the issue of IT being over subscribed, how about sticking to a little intellectual honesty here and working to overcome the designation of Regional only if that's what you want to accomplish. Back door attempts to effect this kind of change will be resisted by forces strong enough to scuttle the effort and you won't even feel the knife.



"Intellectual honesty"? Now there's a laugh. And just how exactly is what's being put forth here 'back door'? There's no hidden agenda here, it's all out in the open. You last statement is pretty troubling though. You imply that there is some group w/in the club that will run things they way they want to, regardless of what the membership at large wants. Is this really the impression that you want people to have of how things are done? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I don't think there are forces w/in this club that will bend/break/totally ignore the rules, if it's in keeping w/ how they want things done, but to come out and state that this is how things are done, is a pretty big step.

As a side note, I have to admit that I was wrong regarding Prod cars running DOT tires when IT came about, and that the Prod prep rules were probably more liberal than IT rules today. I stand corrected.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[emwavey]

I could care less about going to the Runoffs, at least at this point. I'm a newbie and just glad to have a place to race.

If I have this straight, the current way to "advance" is to switch classes to a Nationally recognized class, which most likely means selling a car and buying another one. In some cases it means modifying your existing car. That seems kind of odd to me. I understand the money aspect and perhaps that is why IT is regional only. Regional = less money?

The bottom line is that IT seems like a really fun place to race. I'd hate for it to change, but I do think it is ashame that more people do not know about it... or that it is being kept off the radar by not being allowed at the runoffs.

Reading the bantering back and forth is entertaining, but frustrating as well. I think Mr. Johnson is offering us some insight to how "our" arguements will be met. Let's consider taking a less confrontational tone and see it that gets "us" anywhere.

Things that make sense to me is the arguement that IT could be considered a National class based on numbers subscribed and plain good competition, versus, why IT is considered a regional-only class. Since there are classes like ITE, IT7, Spec7, GT-Pinto, which I believe are specific to certain regions. How could IT be a Nationally recognized class when not all classes are subscribed to in each region. So would these classes be allowed, or would it simply be ITS, and A-C? Would there be a class restructure?

Personally I still like my idea the best. I would love to see a couple IT races run in conjunction with the Speed Touring and GT races. It would, in my limited perspective, be easier, or more entertaining for family members or potential crew members to make the trek to a race.

Keep IT as regional, just so it looks good on the "books", and perhaps send an invite to the best one or two classes subscribed to thoughout the year and the top (insert #) drivers invited. Run them in the same group with a split start.

The positive is advertising an "entry-level" class.

As a new ITA driver in a CRX, I'm considering running with NASA for a race just to see what it's like. I'm looking at the HypeRFest at Summit Point, because it offers folks I would invite to come with me, a chance to do something other then walk around the paddock... seems like a more entertaining show for a spectator, ie, someone who wouldn't rather be in the car racing themselves.

This isn't about being self serving, but more about getting more, younger folks into the folds of club racing.

I'm up to 4 cents now.

-dave
8)

[Knestis]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
... I've said several things here. One, that new drivers progress

That seems like it goes without saying so we agree. However, you intimated that there is some correlation among "newness," "skill level," and license level. That does not hold.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">... two, that drivers make choices on where they want to race</font>

Also - no question. But this discussion isn't about drivers choosing what class to run - at least not from my point of view. It's about what might be good for Club Racing. If you asked 100 people without vested interests whether they enjoyed watching the typical IT group at a typical Regional more than a typical Prod group at a typical National, I'll bet that a huge majority of them would agree. The fact that the IT group is larger is clear evidence of what the drivers prefer.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">... three that different parts of the country have different needs</font>

This is germane if the conversation is just about regionals having the flexibility to do what they need to do, to meet members' needs. The idea of IT having attributes of what we currently call "National status" isn't about that and does NOTHING to prevent regions from being in charge of their own destiny.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">... and four, IT is not representative of all classes.</font>

I frankly am not even sure what this means, in the context of this conversation. Sorry.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">... how about sticking to a little intellectual honesty here and working to overcome the designation of Regional only if that's what you want to accomplish. ...</font>

There's no 'back door' here - no sneakiness, no hidden agenda. Any consideration of National status for IT would obviously require that this clause go away, but any argument that the rule should be updated is predicated on someone making a case that there is value to the change that it enables.

Kirk

(who's having a hard time envisioning an argumentative position that operates from a less intellectually honest position than the classic, de facto Catch 22 - We can't grant IT National status because the rule won't let us, and we can't consider changing the rule because it shouldn't gain that status.)

[Bill Miller]

So would these classes be allowed, or would it simply be ITS, and A-C? Would there be a class restructure?


Dave,

It would only be for IT classes that currently have their specifications listed in the GCR. In other words, ITS/A/B/C. If the SRX7/IT7/Pro7 folks can get together on a single set of rules, and can get them listed in the GCR, then I would think that they'd be eligible as well (not unlike the SM folks did, and yes, I know, SM has nothing to do w/ IT! http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/biggrin.gif ).

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Knestis:
(We can't grant [i] status because the rule won't let us, and we can't consider changing the rule because it shouldn't gain that status.)

This logic comes in many flavors.

G

[emwavey]

...In other words, ITS/A/B/C. If the SRX7/IT7/Pro7 folks can get together on a single set of rules, and can get them listed in the GCR, then I would think that they'd be eligible as well...


This was another thing that I found pretty frustrating. Not only does it devalue, or at least limit the area of a car, it's confusing and inconvenient. I would have purchased an IT-7 that my bro-in-law had for sale, however there was no IT-7 class in the N.E. Call me crazy, (I hear you saying it) I didn't want to start racing in a car I knew had a less then competitive chance even fully built... this way I'm sure I can blame myself. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

Sorry for the tangent, but I think this plays into the mind-set of why certain individuals see IT in general as a regional-only class.

I like the idea of creating some "hype". If anyone is motivated enough to send me a recap, photos and/or videos of their racing experience in IT, I'll gladly post the story. Until I run out, I have a few 100% cotton t-shirts left that I'll gladly sent to you.
This is my other hobby:
http://www.nerdsracing.com/nerdnotes1.htm

I've also looked into teaming up with a local video production company to cover a few events. They, GRDMedia, have been out to a few local autocross events, sticking multiple cameras inside cars, mine included, as well as video from outside. Ed, is his name, was also was able to put telemetry (sp?) showing lateral, exceleration and braking G-force, as well as MPH and time.
http://www.candcstudios.com/motorsports.htm
Scroll about 2/3 of the way down to see what I'm talking about.

I was thinking this might be pretty cool for an IT race to have maybe 3-5 drivers covered with in-car and "simply" station some cameras around a course.

Perhaps if more folks saw how really cool IT racing is, the idea of IT becoming a National class would gain more merit?

Continuing to brainstorm and create tangets.

-dave, who's an artist by trade and can't help to "tangent".
8)

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
The problem for those putting your position forward is that it uses oversimplification in order to demonize my position.

Call me crazy, but "demonize"???? Interesting word choice...


...... working to overcome the designation of Regional only if that's what you want to accomplish. Back door attempts to effect this kind of change will be resisted by forces strong enough to scuttle the effort and you won't even feel the knife.



This statement, especially the italicized (mine) section, is by far the most deeply disturbing and pervasive comment I have EVER read on this forum, or any other that I frequent...

Who are you?? What background do you have in the club?? Do you function as a officer in any way? Are you a driver?

Just to be fair, I am a member of NER, have been in the club for the better part of two decades, have been president of a local sports car club, have volunteered my time to pay back the club by working many positions in the roadracing arm of the region, and I do have, due to my involvement, a basic understanding of some of the workings of the club. Oh, and I pay my financial way with my membership dollar and my entries.

That statement disturbs me.


------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Knestis]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
... Do you function as a officer in any way? ...

Oh, yes - please let THIS be the case.

K

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Knestis:
Oh, yes - please let THIS be the case.

K

Boy howdy!!!



------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[rjohnson999]

Let's see what flies and what winds up on the floor. None of us are going to make anything happen here.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
..... None of us are going to make anything happen here.

You need to pay more attention then...



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Knestis]

It's discourse and there isn't a darned thing wrong with it.

Just for fun, I tried to find the "original discussion" that you (rjohnson999) referenced in an early post here. I couldn't locate anything that looked substantial enough to be considered complete coverage of the topic at hand but I DID discover that, while you clearly have a good understanding of Club organization, you seem to work really hard to keep your Clark Kent identity super-secret.

It's a shame really because you have some informed things to say. They just don't garner any respect - at least not from me - when you play web seagull, swooping in to drop an anonymous load on a thread, then sailing off again...

K

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited April 26, 2005).]

[Mattberg]

" ...... working to overcome the designation of Regional only if that's what you want to accomplish. Back door attempts to effect this kind of change will be resisted by forces strong enough to scuttle the effort and you won't even feel the knife. "

Mr. Johnson,

I'm more than a little disturbed by this comment and I've seen your type in action. Overbearing officials that seem to think they run the joint. We need you like a fish needs a bicycle. You are what's bad in this club.

Times are changing and one major issue is stewarding and regional structure. I watched as regional officials tried to strongarm Spec Miata into regional only status. You stabbed us in the back at first by using a backdoor move yourself and we took our licks but in the end we recovered and beat your pansy ass into submission. That's a fact and it will be repeated. You overestimate your own importance. There's more coming, trust me on that one including getting rid of little dictators like Costas Dunais who seems to motivate all you little Napoleans with his secret steward's newsletter and handbook that should be titled, "How to Be a Total Asshole".

We need workers, not regional executives and stewards on ego trips that try and imply this is some sort of political power battle that officials control.

I will make sure to take your comments with me to Topeka next month and to the BoD in ongoing discussions. Getting rid of guys like you is a major topic of concern.

The thought that you think you can put a knife in anyone or thwart the efforts of drivers to do what they want in this club illustrates your ignorance. I will personally make sure your type is eliminated from this club forever and the club returned to the once fine social special interest it once was and one that IT proudly represents better than any National racing class at the present time.

It's funny, you sound a lot like Peter Olivola... who is easily the biggest horse's ass in the SCCA ...I wonder...? Whaddya' think Bill? :-)

Rant over. Sorry Guys.

[Bill Miller]

Kirk,

Could you do us all a favor, and post the link to that thread.

Matt,

I'm not really sure who it is, but I'm betting that he's realized that he really stepped on his crankshaft w/ that comment. I actually think that Mr. Olivola would have the sack to sign his name to his comments. This coward obviously doesn't. As Kirk, and others, have said, he gets zero respect and credibility if he can't even stand up for his own position.

One of the things that I hope is required when we move to the new version of this site, is that people use their real names, supply real email addresses, and, if they're SCCA members (or members of some other club, e.g. EMRA, NASA, etc.) that they supply their membership #. If we don't facilitate anonymous posting like that of Mr. Johnson, cowards like him will stay away.

And a final word to Mr. Johnson, if you can't own up to who you are, either keep your trap shut, or don't let the door hit you on the way out!

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Peter Olivola]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
I actually think that Mr. Olivola would have the sack to sign his name to his comments.

Thanks, Bill. I think.

[ddewhurst]

***It's funny, you sound a lot like Peter Olivola... who is easily the biggest horse's ass in the SCCA ...***

Matt, I enjoy the one on one with you at the race track & I also enjoy the one on one with Peter at the race track. Even when Peter is sitting within a small group for a driver infraction after a race he deals in FACTS.

Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by lateapex911:


Who are you?? What background do you have in the club?? Do you function as a officer in any way? Are you a driver?



Two days later, and the silence is deafening...
All quiet on the (mid?) western front, it seems.....

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited April 28, 2005).]

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Two days later, and the silence is deafening...
All quiet on the (mid?) western front, it sees.....




You expected something less from a coward??


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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[rjohnson999]

I said what I wanted to say. Don't see much point in repeating myself.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
I said what I wanted to say. Don't see much point in repeating myself.

Nor do you see the need, obviously, of giving your comments any weight or credibility by identifying yourself.....

...which would clearly NOT be repetitious!



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Bill Miller]

Jake,

No point in even bothering w/ this clown. He's a nobody, and this is his way of making himself feel important.

Mr. Johnson,

I think a more accurate statement would be that you've realized that you've said too much, and would probably be better served by refraining from any further comment.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Ron Earp]

We typically call these people "trolls" over on www.gt40s.com (http://www.gt40s.com). And typically, I delete them to keep the membership as a whole focused on more productive things, like building and talking cars.


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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey ITS
1/2 a 260Z ITS