Licensing requirements for towing

[OTLimit]

As a heads up, when we drove thru a weight station on the way home from Topeka last night, Chris was call in to the building and subjected to a lecture on the new federal laws about trucks and towing. Evidently, if you are using a vehicle (pick-up, SUV, etc)that is licensed as a truck to haul a trailer (race or camping), you must have a health certificate and log book if the combined weight is over 10000lbs.

We knew the rules were changing, but it can be extremely difficult to get a straight answer out of the powers that be. Hopefully we can dig up more details and I will post links to them.

Of course, this only applies to you if you get caught. Which, of course, the officer was happy to point out will cost you even more $$.

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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

[JIgou]

Spectacular.

Thanks, Lesley. This will make me feel a tiny bit better when I write out my annual check for $435 more than if Iowa licensed my Excursion as a truck. (It's officially licensed as a passenger car right now.)

I know I'd break the 10k lb limit - the Excursion is all of 8k by itself (when full with 44 gallons of fuel), and the Miata is 2k. Never mind the trailer, the spares, the tires or the dog.

Did they mention if this also counted for the "Not For Hire" RV/private vehicles? (I'm thinking primarily of busses, semis, etc. that have traditionally slipped by with the "registered as an RV not a truck" trick.)

Jarrod

[OTLimit]

Jarrod,
It doesn't matter if it is for hire or not, or for yourself or a friend.

And btw, don't tell them that it is a race car, because then it is 'for gain.' They don't care that it is for a $5 trophy. The guy hassled him about that, too. We are thinking that we now have 'track day' car.

If is is registered as anything other than a truck, you are fine. Doesn't make much sense (especially when you look at some of the RVs pulling trailers), but there it is.

[whenry]

why did you pull thru the weigh station? I have always been told that the DOT guys will rip you a new one if you present your tow package to them.
With SCCA health requirements for driver licensing, most of us can comply with the health card stuff but the truck/trailer combo is now under stricter scrutiny.
YMMV

[chuck baader]

Why and where--what state? thanks, chuck

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by whenry:
why did you pull thru the weigh station? I have always been told that the DOT guys will rip you a new one if you present your tow package to them....

Good point. As a practical matter, one is reminded of the saying, "It is better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission."

G

[Joe Harlan]

The problem with asking forgiveness is if you have an accident and you are not properly licensed you could have big issues. I got a CDL 3 years ago for exactly this reason. It used to be 10000lb trailer and a combined 26,000lb vehicle but it looks like they closed it up a bit. You want to knowthe real scarey part think about that 80 year old man going down the road with airbrakes on his coach that he knows nothing about.

[RSTPerformance]

Lesley-

Just to get it correct... They are just requiring you to have a DOT physical now and keep a log book. (Right???) So now when you go to get your physical and bring in the paperwork for the SCCA stuff make sure that you also tell the doctors office that you want a DOT physical and be sure to get your card before leaving.

You do not need a CDL if it is NOT for hire (as CDL is for Commercial Drivers License). In fact having a CDL will likely hold you to a hire standard than someone without a CDL. For example the cop will have expected you to do a pre trip inspection to be sure everything was in working order (IE: you can't play dumb). You also have to watch our for laws such as when you have that beer don't drive in NH the legal limit for no CDL is .08 with a CDL its .02

Raymond "Retired Bus/Coach driver, now the boss man" Blethen

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan:
...You want to knowthe real scarey part think about that 80 year old man going down the road with airbrakes on his coach that he knows nothing about.

I live in Florida--tell me about it. They are everywhere. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[OTLimit]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
Lesley-

Just to get it correct... They are just requiring you to have a DOT physical now and keep a log book. (Right???) So now when you go to get your physical and bring in the paperwork for the SCCA stuff make sure that you also tell the doctors office that you want a DOT physical and be sure to get your card before leaving.

You do not need a CDL if it is NOT for hire (as CDL is for Commercial Drivers License). In fact having a CDL will likely hold you to a hire standard than someone without a CDL. For example the cop will have expected you to do a pre trip inspection to be sure everything was in working order (IE: you can't play dumb). You also have to watch our for laws such as when you have that beer don't drive in NH the legal limit for no CDL is .08 with a CDL its .02

Raymond "Retired Bus/Coach driver, now the boss man" Blethen

Actually, all of this is NOT true.

Some doctors will not do a DOT physical because it requires a drug test. And if you are pulling over (I think) 27000lb, you must have a CDL. Period. No discussion. But you are right; a CDL does hold you to a higher standard.

FMSCA considers a pickup (licensed as a truck) and trailer 10,001 lbs and over to be a 'truck', and you MUST do a physical and log book. At least that is what we have found out so far. The people we have talked to say that even though we aren't getting prize money for racing, we are still racing for 'gain.' Even if it's just a wood plaque. Chris' brother was told the same thing when he was hassled last year with his truck & horse/dog/living quarters trailer; even if you don't win cash, you are still getting personal gain out of what you are doing. Sounds stupid, but I keep hearing it.

Fuel permits are governed by each state. Some states are very expen$ive.

The more I find out, the more I keep nagging Chris to finish our Freightliner lounge truck that will be licensed as an RV (and not subject to any of this garbage for some unknown reason).



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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

[Greg Amy]

From http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/forms/whomustcomply/index.asp

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/about/other/faq/faqs.asp


This Web site provides guidance to businesses and individuals who operate commercial motor vehicles (large trucks or passenger-carrying vehicles) in interstate commerce to help them determine whether they must comply with Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations.

By answering the following questions, you can determine the requirements that apply to your motor carrier operation. Select "Start" below to begin.

Information:

A commercial motor vehicle is any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle: (1) has a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) or gross combination weight rating (GCWR)—or a gross vehicle weight (GVW) or gross combination weight (GCW)—of 4,536 kilograms (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or (2) is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers, including the driver, for compensation; or (3) is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, whether or not it is used to transport passengers for compensation; or (4) is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, Subtitle B, Chapter I, Subchapter C.

Interstate commerce is trade, traffic or transportation across a State line, including international boundaries, or wholly within one State as part of a through movement that originates or terminates in another State or country.

Intrastate commerce is any trade, traffic or transportation in any State that is not described in the term "interstate commerce."

A Private carrier is a company that provides truck transportation of its own cargo, usually as a part of a business that produces, uses, sells, and/or buys the cargo being hauled.


I just spent some time rolling through this web site; it's a mess. However, it's obvious that these regulations are intended to govern commercial operations ("commerce"), not private activity. [/i]IMO[/i], we are not engaging in "commerce", we are not driving for hire, nor are we charging for our services, so I do not believe we are subject to these restrictions.

Lesley, I suggest - again, in my opinion - that your first mistake was stopping into the weigh station (who in the hell does that?, topped off with being unlucky enough to choose some Federal employee having a bad hair day who decided to take the law a tad bit too literally...think of it this way: if everyone truck/trailer that has a combo weight of 10,000 pounds is subject to this, those weigh stations and state troopers are going to be hella busy...GA

[mowog]

Is that 10,000 combined weight of the truck and trailer, or is that 10,000 weight of the trailer?

[OTLimit]

If you have 27000 lb plates, and you don't stop at the scales, do you know what happens when they stop you?

Excuse us for trying to do this LEGALLY (it just spills over from building the race car, I guess). Chris has had a CDL for a long time; guess he just doesn't think it's worth losing his driving privileges all together.

Commerce has been described in a lot of different ways; the key point seems to be doing it for "gain." Not necessarily commerce the way we normally think of it, but hey, that's why we all read the rules differently.

Whatever.

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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

[MMiskoe]

A couple of things I learned while managing a fleet that included lots of F250's, an F350 and one 33,000# straight truck:

If the vehicle is privately owned, you are probably OK. It defines a "commercial vehicle" as one used in a business. Now if you have a company owned truck & an employee wants to move furniature w/ it on Sunday afternoon (provided its not a furniature company) - no problem, no log book, no physical. (no logic either).

Most doctors will not do a DOT physical, it requires a wiz quiz. But they are good for 2 years. You have to get them set up through an occupational health facility.

No logbook can mean park it for up to 8 hours while you "rest", and pay the fine (about $350 if you're stopped in NY)

No physical card and they have the right to hold the vehicle until you get someone w/ the card. Oh, yeah, the card must be on your person, not just on file somewhere.

The 10,000# - that is Gross COMBINED weight. Take your F250 w/ a GVWR of 8800, your trailer can't be RATED for more than 1199 or you're over.

Don't event think about getting a vehicle that requires a CDL (over 26000). You get into the wonderful world of random drug tests for 50% of your drivers on a quarterly basis.

DOT does not make a lot of sense, but they have a lot of clout.

If you ever have the opportunity to take a driving test for a CDL, get the license, keep it forever. Many state troopers are more lenient on CDL holders.

Poke around your state to see if there is a non-profit group that deals in helping people (mostly small companies) deal w/ DOT. There is in New Hampshire, not in Mass.

Matt

[ccearlock]

You do not need a CDL if the truck is under 26,000# GVW and the trailer being towed is under 10,000# GVW (and you are not hauling hazardous materials).

C Cearlock
New member out on the left coast

[ITANorm]

According to the State of Arkansas - and it's irrelevant to them what the Federal statutes are: If the GCW of your rig is 26,001# or higher, a CDL is required, no matter what the truck / trailer weight configuration is.

The funny thing is, I had the equivalent of a CDL for 25 years. I moved to Arkansas about the time the Federal licensing regulations were changing ('93). They asked me if I was currently using my CDL to drive a truck. I made the mistake of answering "no" and they refused to give me one.

I just went to the FMSCA website. If that information is correct, every dually pickup in the country, pulling a trailer or not, is subject to their rules and requires all that junk. As was implied / pointed out: one of the "or's" is "a GCWR of over 10,000#". Most duallies have a GCWR of 12,600#, or more.

Furthermore, it involves every Class A motorhome, most Class C motorhomes, and every 15 passenger van - period.

[This message has been edited by ITANorm (edited April 05, 2005).]

[ccearlock]

ITANorm,

Where on the FMCSA website does it make mention of a vehicle GCWR over 10,000# requiring a CDL? Just because a dually pickup with a GCW of 12,600# meets the commercial motor vehicle definition does not automatically mean it requires a CDL.

CCearlock
New member out on the left coast

[planet6racing]

Wait, wait, wait! Now, before we all go jumping off the bandwagon, let's ask the important question:

Lesley:

What was Chris towing? And what with?

If it's a single car trailer with an F-350, probably not a reason to stop. But, from the way Lesley is describing things, it certainly sounds like it is more than that. Let's all wait for the answer to this before we start making assumptions. (Plus, Lesley won't feel like we are all telling her that she is wrong http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif )

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by ccearlock:
ITANorm,

Where on the FMCSA website does it make mention of a vehicle GCWR over 10,000# requiring a CDL? Just because a dually pickup with a GCW of 12,600# meets the commercial motor vehicle definition does not automatically mean it requires a CDL.

CCearlock
New member out on the left coast



I think Norm was referring to the health card / logbook requirements, not the CDL requirements.

In NJ, they don't make a distinction for p/u trucks registered as a pass. veh. or as a truck. What we do have in NJ is a commercial registration. And any vehicle can be registered as a commercial vehicle, even a std. pass. car. When you fill out your registration form, they have a check box if the vehicle will be used for commercial purposes. All commercial vehicles get what's known as an "X plate" (the first digit on the license plate is an X). There are restrictions on commercial vehicles (must have business name, city, and state, as a minimum, on 2 sides of the vehicle, etc.). Not sure how this will play here in NJ. And how will this work if the vehicle is not licensed as a truck, but just as a pass. veh.?



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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Greg Amy]

The more I read, the more I think that Bill and Bill (and others) are on to something. Plus, I think "your mileage may vary" according to the state you're from.

Lesley, just what in the heck are you towing with? Please recognize that on this board the typical (I'd guess at least 95th percentile) tow vehicle is a privately-owned pickup or van, probably 1/2-3/4 ton, certainly no more than 1-ton, pulling a single-car open trailer with an occasional enclosed trailer for those richy-rich boys. We certainly ain't towing with toters, large truck chassis, and 2- and 3-car enclosed trailers!

In CT, there are three basic plates for our 95th-percentile: passenger, combination, and commercial. Passenger vehicles are just that, and will not be used for commercial purposes. Combo plates are used on vehicles that *may* be used for commercial purposes, but that's not its primary function; however, CT also registers larger pickups and cargo vans (over xxxx GVW, I don't know the crossover) as combo vehicles because they *could* be used for commercial purposes (higher reg fees, don't you know.) To add to the confusion, CT will allow a larger non-commercial "passenger-only" vehicle (i.e., passenger vans) to register as such regardless if it exceeds the weight limit (e.g., my E-350 cargo van must be reg'd as a combo, but my buddy's E-350 15-passenger van can be reg'd as a passenger vehicle because it has rear windows and seats).

Then, CT has a pure commercial category (the red-letter plates) which are purely commercial vehicles (cutaway trucks, delivery vans, business pickups, etc), as well as "Camper" (self-powered), "Camper Trailers" (towed), "Farm", and "Bus" as well as others not germane to the conversation.

So, to be specific to Lesley's email, there are NO "truck" plates in Connecticut. The closest we would have to that is the "Commercial" red-letter plates. In Connecticut, a commercial motor vehicle is defined as:

- Vehicle with a gross vehicle weight of 26,001 or more pounds,
- Vehicle designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver,
- Vehicle designed to transport 11 or more passengers, including the driver, and used to transport students under the age twenty-one years of age to and from school, or
- Any vehicle transporting hazardous materials which is required to be placarded.

Given all this - for anyone living in CT - I suggest that the only vehicles subjected to Lesley's concerns are our "Commercial" plates, and I believe we in the 95th-percentile are not subject to the concerns... GA

[1stGenBoy]

In a former life as a truck driver for a race team,I found that the guys at the weigh stations(more often late nights than anything other)were more interested in what was in the trailer than anything else.
After telling you to pull around back because they needed to check your logbook, they many times would want to see in the trailer. A quick look at the cars and maybe a t-shirt or a hat and you were good to go. It was amazing going through that weigh station again later in the month or even later in the year as sometimes they would remember you and just wave you right on through.

Bob Clark

[This message has been edited by 1stGenBoy (edited April 05, 2005).]

[EV]

Originally posted by GregAmy:
I just spent some time rolling through this web site; it's a mess. However, it's obvious that these regulations are intended to govern commercial operations ("commerce"), not private activity. IMO, we are not engaging in "commerce", we are not driving for hire, nor are we charging for our services, so I do not believe we are subject to these restrictions....

I agree with this.. Commerce is defined in my dictionary as "Transactions (sales and purchases) having the objective of supplying commodities (goods and services)" If I am towing my travel trailer for pleasure I should be good.

Just because a trooper told you this, doesn't mean he is correct. They can be wrong too.

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Enjoy,
Bill

[This message has been edited by EV (edited April 05, 2005).]

[dave parker]

I know that last year on Labor Day monday the Maryland State Police were set up on US340 just across the WV/VA state line. They pulled over several of the MARRS competitors and issued citations for everything from transporting hazardous materials(gasoline in a gas can in the trailer) without proper declarations on the driver's CDL to not having the proper driver's license for the type of vehicle being operated(high GVW without CDL) and a few more that I did not catch in the discussion in October.
I think that several issues come to light here:
1. Make sure that you know the laws that govern what your doing and where you are doing it. Ignorance is not a valid excuse(as a judge in some little podunk county in Georgia told me once).

2. Make sure that your vehicle is properly licensed and that it is used within the parameters of the law.

3. Beware of overzealous enforcement by officials. We see this all the time in SCCA, so why should the "real" world be any different. My boss refers to this situation as someone controlling their "fiefdom".Whether their "fiefdom" is real or percieved.

4. Be ready to hire a lawyer to defend you from the onslaught if you run afoul of the enforcement officials. As much as I hate what lawyers do and how they do it, they have their place in this wonderful country and there is a time in every persons life where the lawyers are needed and useful.

Good luck and remember, without the adventures of towing what would we talk about on the way to the next race.
cheers
dave
wdcr ITC#97

[JIgou]

I should just let Lesley respond, but in the interest of keeping the storm brewing.... http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

They've got an enclosed gooseneck trailer around 48' long, plenty to haul two cars plus pretty much another car in spare parts. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

It's currently towed with a 1-ton Chevy dually. I believe (this may have changed) that the truck is licensed commercially, which is probably a part of what triggers the issue.

Looks like, from Greg Amy's post above listing all of the OR qualifications, lots of folks on this site COULD be running on borrowed time, depending on how the guy in the booth (or the blue car) decides to interpret "commerce."

Jarrod

[This message has been edited by JIgou (edited April 05, 2005).]

[Daryl DeArman]

As someone who has begun to research upgrading my tow rig/trailer combination I have learned that in CA if the GCWR is over 26,000# then you need to have a Class B (non-CDL). Regular is a Class C. If you are going to tow a tag trailer or vehicle behind a 5th wheel (behind your truck) you need a doubles endorsement.

My understanding is that unless the vehicle is used for hire or is rated over 26,000# GCWR you don't need a CDL in CA.

Regarding placarding of HAZ-MAT, unless you are talking about certain POISON(s) or Explosives placcarding, and HAZMAT endorsements are not required unless the amount of that HAZ-MAT exceeds 500#. As long as you are talking about 1 drum of fuel and you aren't mixing it with other HAZ things you should not have an issue.

[apr67]

The simple answer is.

Their is no simple answer.

Its a federal/state/local thing. And if we don't understand it, what's the chances of Joe Law understanding it? Very little, they have a hard time deciding what type of donught to buy!

[OTLimit]

So here is what I have learned so far (you're circumstances may be different based on your state---but don't count on it):

The MO Dept of Revenue:
http://www.dor.mo.gov/mvdl/motorv/checklist.htm

"Trucks (“Commercial Vehicle”)
Registration fees for trucks, including all pickup trucks and all utility-type vehicles that are registered as trucks [[that includes SUVs registered as trucks]], are determined by your truck’s weight, and whether you will be using the truck locally (within 50 miles from home) or over a wider area. Your truck’s weight includes the weight of any other trailers or property that you might haul during the registration period."

I left off the fee structure because it is irrelevant except that the stated amounts only go up to Beyond Local over 12,000; higher levels are not listed. Obviously, the flat-bed dually + 42' Chaparal gooseneck trailer is now a commercial vehicle according to MO. Especially with 30,000lb plates to cover the weight of Chris' two cars and the proverbial kitchen sink.

Next: http://www.mshp.dps.missouri.gov/MSHPWeb/P...ooks/SHP216.pdf (http://www.mshp.dps.missouri.gov/MSHPWeb/Publications/Handbooks/SHP216.pdf)

"page 8: Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) to stop at weigh stations - section 304.235: All CMVs, except those licensed for 18,000 pounds or less, are required to stop at an official weigh station. Others may be required to stop if directed by a peace officer or commercial vehicle officer."

So that's why we stop at scales. Not given a lot of choice, unless you want to ask for trouble.

So then we go to the FMSCA website and fill out their on-line questionnaire and get the following result:
"Your replies indicate that you are the operator of a Private commercial motor vehicle which:

has a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) or gross combination weight rating (GCWR)or gross vehicle weight (GVW) or combination weight (GCW)of 4,536 kilograms (10,001 lbs) or more in interstate commerce [[definition of interstate commerce: Interstate commerce is trade, traffic or transportation across a State line, including international boundaries, or wholly within one State as part of a through movement that originates or terminates in another State or country.]]

does not transport passengers in interstate commerce
does not transport hazardous materials in interstate commerce

If the above information is correct, then your operation is subject to:

The Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations (FMCSRs) and Financial Responsibility Requirements."

So now we not only have to stop at scales, but also have to have a health certificate (every 2 yrs) and a driver's log. The log can be real simple and can just be written in a notebook; when did you start driving, stop, where going, etc.

Just out of curiousity, I did a quick look up of a couple other states. FL is ambiguous: a "heavy truck" has a net weight over 5K lbs, designed to pull a trailer, but I couldn't find much else. GA has class A and B licenses for NON-commercial >26K lb truck/trailer, but that doesn't help with the FMSCA regulations.

New comments?

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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

[Greg Amy]

Lesley, I'm a State Chapter Activist with the National Motorists' Association (http://www.motorists.org). I passed this issue along to the organization, and they're checking into it for a formal ruling. As soon as I learn something I'll pass it along.

I think the key is the definition of "interstate commerce." Taken literally, "trade, traffic or transportation across a State line" would also apply to a family of four driving to Orlando in a Saturn; I'm fairly confident the Feds don't consider that interstate commerce. In addition, I believe it also depends on each individual state's definitions of "truck."

Plus, you guys are hauling a hell of a lot more than most.

Let me see what I can learn... Greg

[seckerich]

I got stopped on the way to VIR with a dually pulling a 48' fifth wheel trailer. Your tag must meet or excede the combined weight of the truck and trailer as listed on the GVWR tags on trailer and truck. Trailer is 15500 and dually is 10050 for total of 25550 and I am tagged for 26000. This is a commercial non cdl and does not require cdl license. It makes no difference if the rig loaded is only say 20000 pounds, you must have tags to cover the rating. I had the officer crawl up in the bed to see the tags on the trailer tongue and had the load range of my tires checked. I carry about 30 - 35 gallons of fuel in jugs and this keeps us under the limit for hazmat warning. We have to stop at all weigh stations and rarely have any problems. Hope this helps.
Steve Eckerich
ITS Speedsource RX7

[OTLimit]

I think the short story is that you should be prepared. Know how much weight you are hauling and try to prepare yourself for the worst case scenario in the states that you frequent.

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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

[benspeed]

Well - I drive an F350 and pull a 24' Hallmark. All I can say is I'm going to look at the NJ DMV website and see what little nuggest of wisdom I can find before I have some kind of surprise!

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BenSpeed
#33 ITS RX7
BigSpeed Racing
NNJR BoD - Treasurer
[email protected]
NNJR

[its66]

Lesley,
Thank you for sharing this situation with other racers. This will help everyone be more prepared. Some of the following makes almost as much sense as keeping passenger windows which are required to be rolled down. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif
A truck (any truck) pulling a 10,000+ lb trailer (rated or registered) is technically a Class A vehicle. The same as an 80,000 lb semi truck/trailer. The trailer doesn't have to weigh 10k, only be rated for 10k. The differences are how each state defines the commercial part of the "CDL". Many states will require a Class A CDL, a log book, and a current DOT medical card for operators of this type vehicle. Some states, California for example, have a "non commercial" class A license for just such examples.
Toter Homes and Motor homes/Coaches can usually be registered as an RV. Most states will not require a CDL for one of these vehicles, even though it may be larger, heavier, and more difficult to drive than the above dually situation.
As always YMMV.

Jim Cohen
ITS66

[Bill Miller]

Interesting note about CDL's. When I was on the local VFD and Rescue Squad, we didn't have to have any kind of CDL to drive the fire trucks or the rescue rigs. This included everything up to a 4500 gallon tanker. I'me not sure what the GVW was, but I'd bet it was somewhere in the 60k# neighborhood. All of the rigs were air brake units.

Interesting that they'll make someone jump through hoops if they havea 10k# rig, but we weren't subject to any of those regulations.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Daryl DeArman]

Originally posted by its66:
A truck (any truck) pulling a 10,000+ lb trailer (rated or registered) is technically a Class A vehicle. The same as an 80,000 lb semi truck/trailer. The trailer doesn't have to weigh 10k, only be rated for 10k.

Jim, for clarification: In CA a truck is only is considered a "Class A" vehicle when towing a trailer rated at 10K+ AND the GCWR of the truck exceeds 26K.

If you have a dually that has a GCWR of 26,000# and you are pulling a trailer with a GVWR of 10,001 or 15,001 you don't need a class A...just make certain you aren't exceeding the 26,000 total combined weight rating.

Another unrelated note: In California, I believe you are required to have an Air Brakes endorsement if your tow vehicle is equipped with air brakes. A haz-mat endorsement if you are carrying loads that will require placcards. A doubles/triples endorsement if you will be towing a trailer behind a trailer (only permitted to tow a tag behind a 5th wheel)

[RKramden]

Originally posted by GregAmy:

In CT, there are three basic plates for our 95th-percentile: passenger, combination, and commercial.

And you can confuse things even more by having the same number on all three plates.

My dad had a business in CT, and the family car had a 5 digit plate, the "combo" (a suburban) had the same 5 digits, and the truck had a commercial plate with the same 5 digits.

One day, my Dad, Mom, and I were all parked in the center of town at my sisters business and a cop actually noticed three cars/trucks in a row with the same plate. Boy, was he confused. :-)

[its66]

Daryl is exactly correct on that. I should have proofread my post. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

Bill,
That is the same here in Florida. There is also an exemption for Farm vehicles, and the old, roofless school buses that the orange growers use. Sometimes I wonder if the Dot helped write the GCR.

[joeg]

The "problem" regulation (or website quiz)is actually unique to the FEDS.

I cannot find any State whose rules actually trigger CDL, etc. issues at a 10,000lb GCWR level for the tow vehicle and the trailer.

You will of course find State law references to 10,000lb for a trailer's GVWR and , of course the universal 26,000 lb., etc. level.

Perhaps somone can prove me wrong and find a state that uses a "10,000 GCWR" in its vehicle or licensing laws, but I believe that something may be a bit wierd (i.e., erroneous) with the FED rule/test. All this is complicated by the fact that, legally, "Interstate Commerce" is simply travel: going from CT to Watkins Glen--there is no business or commercial aspect to it.

Why is the FED rule/ quiz strange? An out-of state dually pick-up towing an empty tow dolly will trigger a CDL and log requirement. Better yet, a Ryder rental cube truck with a car trailer taking mom, pop and the kids to that new job and home in Florida also triggers same.

Curious.

[Greg Amy]

Here's the answer I got from someone "high up" at OOIDA, the Owner-Operator Independent Drivers Association (http://www.ooida.com). No name, as I forgot to ask permission to use it.

I really don't think it definitively answers our questions, though...

Begin Quote

There are no new federal rules related to transportation by individuals of cars, horses, boats, etc., to races, shows or similar events. The question of whether transportation of this nature is subject to commercial driver and vehicle regulations has come up on several occasions over the years. It's all in how states interpret the applicability of the federal rules or whether they choose to enact a more stringent individual state law.

The first test is whether the vehicle or combination of vehicles could be considered a commercial vehicle. In part, section 390.5 of the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations defines a commercial motor vehicle as: "...any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle - (1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or...(4) Is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, subtitle B, chapter I, subchapter C."

If the vehicle meets or exceeds the 10,001-pound weight threshold, or is transporting hazardous materials the towing vehicle does not necessarily have to be licensed as a truck for a state to consider it, or the combination, a commercial vehicle. The language "or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight" is a relatively recent addition to the definition. This means that even if the GVWR of each vehicle and the GCWR is 10,000 pounds or less, but the actual gross weight exceeds 10,000 pounds, the vehicle could still be considered a commercial motor vehicle.

Section 390.3 describes the general applicability of the rules that apply to commercial vehicles, but provides an exception for "hobby" transportation. Section 390.3(f)(3) exempts: "The occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise." Furthermore, the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration published an interpretation as follows:

Question 21: Does the exemption in 390.3(f)(3) for the "occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise" apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events? Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and (B) the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject.

Still, some states consider this type of transportation to be the "furtherance of a commercial enterprise" regardless of whether monetary compensation is involved. The mere fact that the best one might gain is a modest trophy will not deter these states from enforcing many provisions of the federal rules related to the driver and vehicle including hours-of-service, physical qualifications and vehicle maintenance standards.

Also, for those involved in racing that haul fuel for their race car or boat, a state may not only determine that the vehicle is a commercial vehicle subject to the rules above, but a myriad of other regulations could apply. If hauling more than 119 gallons of fuel in bulk, or fuel in individual containers totaling more than 1,000 pounds, a state could require that the driver comply with Commercial Driver's License, drug and alcohol testing, and hazardous materials regulations.

States must adopt the federal safety rules into state law for enforcement authority purposes. While states are required to be in substantial compliance with federal regulations, they can impose and enforce stricter laws as long as those laws do not prevent full compliance with the federal rules.
End Quote

[Daryl DeArman]

Originally posted by GregAmy:
If hauling more than 119 gallons of fuel in bulk, or fuel in individual containers totaling more than 1,000 pounds, a state could require that the driver comply with Commercial Driver's License, drug and alcohol testing, and hazardous materials regulations.

See 'they' aren't after 'us'...they just need to protect themselves from people running a business trying to skirt the laws.
119 gallons allows us (1), but not (2) 55 gallon drums of fuel. I believe in CA (this state law stricter than Federal), the cutoff is 500# not 1000#, that is why I stick to one 30 gallon drum and leave myself some wiggle room. Don't need mr. officer taking my 55 gallon drum and the contents in the fuel cell into consideration.

I do find it kind of scary though that I can carry 55 gallons of fuel in a drum and a nitrogen tank in my trailer w/o any warnings on the trailer to mr. fireman that arrives on the scene of an accident that he may get a little unexpected excitement! Let's hope that never happens.

And before anyone suggests...it is VERY bad to placcard a load that doesn't require it.

[This message has been edited by Daryl DeArman (edited April 08, 2005).]

[Knestis]

Holy crap. Another reason that I'm completely fine running all of the obvious risks driving my racing car to the track. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/biggrin.gif

K