Cost dispairity

[jhooten]

Not to long ago there was a discussion of the cost in the various parts of the country. Well, follows is the text I sent to the RE of the hosting region for the upcomming race weekend:

"I knew when I started that racing was not a cheap hobby but this is getting rediculous. $220 for a Saturday only weekend. Those of us in the regional only classes have been getting screwed out the Sunday P&Q in addition to only getting a 30 mile/minute restricted region instead of the 45 mile/minute the nationals get on a reg/nat/rr weekend and still payed the same. Now you are locking us completely out on sunday.

Looking at this upcomming weekend:
They pay $295 and get 120 minutes of track time or 2.46 $/min.
We pay $220 and get 50 minutes of track time or 4.40$/min., Almost double.
Or we pay 75% and much and only get 42% as much track time.
The region is paying for two sanction numbers for them and only one for us yet we pay 75%.
The region rents the track for two days for them and only one for us and still we pay 75%.

I don't expect it to happen but it would be nice if someone could give a reasonable explaination as to why The regional racers continue to get shafted in such a glorious fashion."

Am I being unreasonable in my request?

[lateapex911]

Where are you located? I will say that the guys whoo decide schedules and costs in our region discuss matters such as thins, and the result is that most are happy.

I would suggest that your region has planning meetings, and it might be possible for you to attend such meetings, and perhaps you might learn why things like this happen, or perhaps you could voice your objections and help form policy.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[JeffW]

I have taken on this battle with the BoD in Colorado Region. $220 for a single, $260 for a double (the single costs 85% of the double). I would like to see the single day rate come closer to reflecting the actual cost of the day. I am trying to get a race for the regional-only classes on the Sunday of the R/N later this summer but I don't know if they will act on it. I showed them the participation numbers from last year's R/N and the response was almost like I was speaking in tongues. The top 4 classes in the region as far as participation are SM, S7, ITE, and ITS. Registration from those classes for the single day was at 50% or less. SM -11 (season average on doubles was 21), S7 - 3 (averaged 6.4).

A friend of mine took the financial report from that R/N weekend and calculated the actual cost per driver (regional & national) for the entire weekend. The individual cost per driver per day was about $137. When it was suggested that a single could be charged at $160 and only 15 more entries would be required to cover the fixed costs, the RE asked me to prove that we would get 15 more entries. Look at the SM and S7 numbers above. Highly probable that we would get the extra 15, don't ya think?

We also have 2 DS/R weekends coming up this summer. Again the entry fees are $220/$260. One BoD member suggested that we should register for both since the DS day is 'good track time'. I'm still only getting one race for my money. If all I wanted was 'good track time', I would tow my car to the track on a non-race day and pay the track manager $60 for a generous half-day of 'Good Track Time'.

Other regions around the country can run singles for 55%(Texas), 57%(SoCal), 68%(NW), and 71%(San Francisco) of the double rate. Nobody has been able to give me a good reason why Colorado Region is at 85%. I think MiDiv is in the 82%-85% range also.

On a final note, our RE is a Club Ford guy who has proposed a CF/FF Challenge to revitalize the CF/FF classes. This special series is to take place at 4 tracks during 4 double regional weekends. At our most recent town hall meeting I asked why the Challenge was going to take place only on the Double Regional weekends. One of the tracks included in the 4 has 3 single dates during the season. Why didn't they chose 2 of the 3 singles to fill the 8 race challenge? One of our stewards, having not been present during earlier discussions about lopsided entry fees, spoke up and said that the economics didn't make sense for them to do that. EXACTLY MY POINT!!! (There was a snide comment tossed my way by another BoD member in reference to "Black Helicopters".)

IT, SM and S7 are the backbone of SCCA club racing, as shown by their participation numbers on the track. Time to participate off the track, too. Go to your BoD and tell them, "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!"

Jeff

jhooten, to which region do you refer?

[JeffW]

Jake,

Getting involved is what I am doing. But SCCA officials are not much different than officers of the PTA, Little League, Lions, Kiwanis, or Student Council. They have to be in charge of something. And if they are in charge of something, that makes them more important than others in their feudal system. Unfortunately many well-meaning volunteers get caught up in being part of that 'in crowd' and they forget who they are serving. And while we all know that we couldn't race on a weekend without all of the other volunteers, there will be NO races for the volunteers to work if there are no drivers. Several longtime members of my region refuse to run single days at the rates being charged.

A few months ago (maybe a year), Steve addressed the aging membership of SCCA. To get fresh, young bodies we need to continually look at ways to make Club Racing attractive and affordable. The new Time Trials program may work as a hook to get new people involved, but it's too early to tell. But the lopsided fee structure for Club Racing in RMDiv and MiDiv are deterrents in my opinion.

Jeff

[Andy Bettencourt]

As a memeber of the NER BoD, here is what I would suggest...

Ask your LOCAL Regional Comp Board Chair to put a "Regional Race cost breakdown" on the next agenda. Let him/her know that you and some fellow racers are concerned about escalating costs for singles and also would like to understand why the cost/track time percentages work out the way that they do. Oh - ya, then ATTEND THE MEETING.

Once you have a full, 100% understanding how things work - then take your (equally even-keeled and professional) request to any out-of-Region Comp Chairs. Unless that RE is on the comp board, they will likely hav eto shuffle the request to someone in the know of the full details.

I do not think that any Regions work off of much profit and it would behoove you to get a real sense of 100% of the costs before you fire up a sh*t storm in someone elses back yard.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[This message has been edited by Andy Bettencourt (edited March 20, 2005).]

[jhooten]

The 3 regions in SWDiv that sponser most races are Lone Star (my region of record), Texas, and Houston. Houston region is the largest and holds more that the other two. And Houston is the one that puts the highest burdon on the regional classes. It is Houston that is holding the April Fools weekend. An appropriate name for the event if you ask me.

SM is given a run for its money by SRF. On a good weekend they both end up with a single class run group, each putting about 50 cars on the track. With SM going national next year it looks like "we" will have a much less financial inpact on the bottom line for the regions and be treated like even more of a step child.

Guess I need to get in three more races, get a national liscense, and request the Supra be classed in some production class.

[chuck baader]

As a board member of the Alabama region the last several years and a successful business owner for the last 25, I would like to comment.

The first item of discussion in establishing entry fees is the fixed cost of the track involved. That is then compared with the PROJECTED entry numbers to see where the region will "break even". For instance, for Barber Park, 10k/day for track rental plus another 2500/day for incidentals such as ambulance, wreckers, etc. means for a two day event the first order of business is covering 25,000.00 in fixed costs. Now, the second part of the equation...participation. If racers (and we have ourselves to blame for this) would enter early or we had some way of establishing a probable entry then fees could be reduced. HOWEVER, we don't have that so we as organizers must SWAG numbers that are conservative so that if conflicts or weather reduces entries the region can still break even. Believe me, I and the other organizers agonize over entry fees for every event...that is probably the number one topic of discussion along with "how many will attend".

Still, SCCA racing is the best bang for the buck going. Compare costs with other clubs such as PCA and our entry fees seem trivial. Actually, compared to tires, fuel, transportation, lodging, maintenance, etc. they are trivial. Chuck

------------------
Chuck Baader
#36 ITA E30 BMW
Alabama Region Divisional Registrar

[jhooten]

Chuck, I understand track and other cost. The bone of contention I have is why am I expected to subsidise the regions expenses for sunday when I am not allowed on the track at all that day?


Oh, I guess it would have eliminated some of the confusion it I could remember to check the show signature box.

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Jerry
ITS/E 85 Toyota Supra
Lone Star Region

[This message has been edited by jhooten (edited March 20, 2005).]

[Bill Miller]

Chuck,

One of the answers to that is to charge a 'late' fee for registrations that show up after a cut-off date (week or two before the event). Or, if you don't like the 'late fee' concept, offer a 'discount' for early registrations. I can talk to the WDCR registrar and get an idea of the ratio of pre-registrations to total registrations. They also charge $50 if you pre-register and don't cancel w/in 24 or 48 hours of the event, and then don't show.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[chuck baader]

Actually last year we had a 100 late fee. I think the promoters that jhooten is addressing looked at the PROBABLE entries for the two days and set prices accordingly.

Please note that I volunteer my time and money to support my region. Any profits made on races or DEs is reinvested into the region for items such as computers, timing and scoring equipment, sound control equipment, region race trailer,etc. I do not know of a region that pays its volunteer officers. I think it is time for jhooten to step up and volunteer his time to help his region.

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Chuck Baader
#36 ITA E30 BMW
Alabama Region Divisional Registrar

[jhooten]

Is working corners enough? For example Feb race was a double nat, not region only classes at all. Saturday I have other commitments but sunday I was at the track with whites in hand to fill in as needed. The Oct. reg/Enduro I was there working as I was not racing. AndI worked races for a full year before I decided to participate as a driver.

Since most divisions require 5 years of experiance before taking you in the SIT program I am a couple years away from starting there.

So what to do in the mean time? On the back page of the regions March news letter is the when and where of the board meetings with the comment "ARE OPEN TO ALL MEMBERS". So It is time to go see what the board is up to, make my handsome face seen, and see if I have any talents that can contribute to the effort. However, I have spent most of my "careers" in the crises responce side of things instead of the planning of the operations.

All of which is fine. I can get involved in the mamgement of MY region. But the fact is when it comes to the region in this case I am nothing to them but a customer. Just like my daily gripe to the convience store manager about her raising the gas price, the only influence I will have on Houston region is to express my concerns as a consumer of their product.

[ddewhurst]

Before anyone reads this please understand that I do understand that officals/workers/organizers donate their time. They donate their time so that they can be part of the SCCA organization where WE THE OWNERS/DRIVERS RACE CARS. I attempted to take part at a open rules Competition Board meeting. I will not get into the details except that the guys who were promoting a lighter wheel/tire weight for the Spec-7 class didn't have a clue what the existing OEM rim or Kumo tire respectively weighed or what the new alum rims they were promotnig weighed. Nuff said, they told me that I had not been AROUND LONG ENOUGH to be spouting off details about what THEY were doing. Have never gone to another meeting. I belong to the SCCA to road race a car.....

Now on to the dispairity subject. I WAS (I do one new track per year.) going to do a double Regional/PDE event at Hartland Park Topeka in April of this year. Following are the details (cost & track time) for the two day event for each Regional & for each PDE.

Double Regional cost: $275.00

Double PDE cost: $205.00

Sat. Regional track time is one 20 minute session & a 12 lap race.

Sat. PDE track time is three 20 minute sessions.

Sun. Regional track time is one 20 minute session & a 16 lap race.

Sun. PDE track time is three 20 minute sessions.

Can someone please help me figure out who got the deal on this outing? Look at who pays what & track time please.

Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David Dewhurst
SCCA 250772
CenDiv Milwaukee Region
ITA/7 #14

[JeffW]

Andy,

Actual cost per driver was $137 per day for the R/N held at Second Creek Raceway last July. This took into account track rental, tow truck, ambulance, insurance, sanction fees, and even the beer and food for the Saturday post race party...everything on the financial disclosure given to us by our BoD for that race weekend. We probably should have made a slight adjustment in the figures to account for the national tow fund, making the fair share for the regional a little less than the $137. But $220 for the single?

I understand the arguments for having a little wiggle room for bad weather (don't understand why weather is a problem - raced in rain AND snow, worked corners in hail), upgrading and replacing equipment, etc, but paying 85% of the double rate for a single day? If you could buy 2 Twinkies for $1.00, would you pay $0.85 for one Twinkie? I think all reasonable people would buy 2 Twinkies. If the single Twinkie were $0.60, several would still buy 2 but single Twinkie sales would be higher.

Andy, unfortunately I will not be able to get a "full, 100% understanding" of why the fee structure is set the way it is because I like to look at numbers and use LOGIC. If you read my earlier post about my RE's Club Ford Challenge, do you (or anybody else) have a logical explanation for chosing the 4 Double Regional weekends? I do, economics. None of the CF/FF folks would show up for the singles.

There is discussion of changing the schedule to eliminate any "mixed" weekends for next year. This would leave us with Double Drivers' Schools, Double Regionals, and Double Nationals. Interestingly, to my knowledge, there have not been any DS/N weekends scheduled in the past. If, as one of my BoD members suggested, registering for the Driver's school is 'good track time', wouldn't the drivers for a Sunday National want some of that 'good track time'?

I believe that the entry fees were set as an incentive to get drivers to enter for both days. But in the process, single days for regional cars were not addressed (i.e. R/N weekends) and the single day rate has become a penalty. There has been a reluctance to consider lowering the single day rate for regional-only cars for just the one weekend when they are excluded from participating "by rule". Oh, and did anyone notice that the financial report doesn't support the single rate, either?

Trying to participate in the 'process' but sometimes think I would feel less pain with my head between the jack and frame rail.

Jeff

[lateapex911]

David, I assume you think the DE track time to cost ratio is favorable. Seems so, although I don't know the length of the track so it's hard to calculate track time based on laps. But I see your point.

The fact that the two events are concurrent probably makes this a moot point, but there is the possibility of the insurance costs being different for the two different activities. Road racing is obviously a bit pricier. I don't know if your region has a contract that allows for that or not. Just a thought.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited March 20, 2005).]

[lateapex911]

Jeff, I hear you .....and it reminds me how lucky we are in NER where we as drivers are requested to attend meetings, and where the guys who run the region are often drivers.

I will point to our situation though, as an insight to the difficulties facing regional BoDs. Lime Rock has recently decided that SCCA is not profitable enough. Even though we've staffed many of their IMSA, ALMS, vintage and NASCAR events in a good mutually benefitial relationship in the past, we have been notified that rates are going up. Bigtime...like 70% plus. The track hours are 10-6 friday and 9-6 sat, never anything Sunday, with some other restrictions as well, No more than 42 cars in any group, and the daily rate is going to end up above $20,000.

I know that getting involved can be tough, but I think that if you show up, listen, take the time to get all the info, your input will be respected and heeded when you make your point. Or maybe our regiion is just better than most in that regard! Either way, find out all you can on why they do what they do, and don't expect things to turn around overnight.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Bill Miller]

You should read the Prod board (and I'm sure a few others), and see how happy the people are w/ the new, $300 entry for the Runoffs. 50% increase in 2 years ('03 was $200, '04 was $250).

$200+ for a single day is absurd. It's one of the reasons I won't waste my time going to LRP. One day at LRP costs almost as much as a dbl. Regional at Summit Point. I can get more track time at a MARRS single Regional, pay for the extra gas there and back, and probably still have enough left over for some beer, for what it costs for a single day at LRP.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[chuck baader]

Jhooten...workin corners enough? Depends on what you want to do. You have already established yourself as a valuable asset to the region by being a corner worker. As was said above, now attend the board meetings and become involved with the actual managment of the region. I think you will find attending meetings most informative.

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Chuck Baader
#36 ITA E30 BMW
Alabama Region Divisional Registrar

[racer-025]

Its too bad that some of you folks couldn't make the trek up to our local track in Nova Scotia. During a normal race weekend, we get tons of seat time. For only $175 we get:

4 hours of practice on Saturday and on Sunday, we get;

- 30 min. Qualifying/Practice session
- 15 lap Sprint race 1
- 15 lap Sprint race 2
- 1 hour Atlantic Challenge Enduro
- 15 lap Unlimited race

also included is camping all weekend and a party Sat night! Pretty hard to beat...

Here is our Regional schedule if anyone is interrested;

MAY 29 - REGIONAL RACE No. 1
JUNE 19 - REGIONAL RACE No. 2
JULY 17 - REGIONAL RACE No. 3
AUG. 28 - REGIONAL RACE No. 4
SEPT. 25 - REGIONAL RACE No. 5

[JeffW]

Beautiful! $175. American$ or Canadian$. Either way it looks great. But I'm sure the insurance costs are probably lower since they are tied in with socialized medicine. More research on the details before I tow from Colorado.

Additional info on local entry fees, this time from Continental Divide Region (Colorado Springs). For the upcoming R/R/N on Memorial Day weekend.

R = $195
N = $210

R/R = $260
R/N = $275

R/R/N = $390

Looking at the fees for the doubles and the triple, it looks like the average cost per day is about $130- $137.50. (Hmmm... where have we seen that $137.00 figure before?) Singles for Regional and National events are still outrageously priced.

With the upcoming DS/R, and my disdain for the single race fee, a fellow racer has offered to sponsor me for the difference of $60 ($220-$160) to get me out there. As much as I would like to be out there with all the guys & gals, I have decided to politely refuse his offer based on sticking to my principles on the issue. If I were to accept his offer, others would suggest that I think the fees are OK as long as they don't come out of my pocket. And also, he is not in the position to subsidize the rest of us. If he were to pay mine and not help others, there could be bad feelings in the paddock. Race days are supposed to be fun. I'll fight in the Board Room.

Jeff

[TypeSH]

I also run in Texas with SCCA in ITS and found regional racers just do not get treated fairly here. Luckily NASA Texas picks up where SCCA has dropped the ball. With NASA Texas (www.nasatx.com) the event cost $275 but the difference is we get 4 races a weekend instead of 1 or 2 with SCCA. I still attend 1 or 2 SCCA events a year just to keep my license but I might even stop doing that if conditions do not improve.

[rjohnson999]

Are you sure your calculations on cost are correct? I didn't see anything in your numbers that suggest even a hint of maintenance and capital expense for the equipment used during a race weekend, just to name a couple of expenses. Does your region feed the staff? Is there a party? I didn't see mention of those, either.

It's also interesting to turn the thing upside down and view the small cost differential as an incentive to enter the tripple. Not possible in an IT car? Maybe the region has been trying to strengthen its National program.

If you don't like being the subject of a directed marketing effort you might have to find another planet to race on.

Is there a Divisional Championship Series in RMDiv? How such a series would interact with the schedule is also a potential factor.

Are regional racers held in lower regard than national competitors? I don't know the situation in RMDiv. That's not the case in my region. Of course, we don't need to combine regional and national events so there's no way your situation applies, but have you thought about the impact of trying to split regional and national events in your region/division? If it's not possible you might consider what the region is trying to accomplish. Is it possible for them to even do a national without support from some regional classes?

Another perspective shift would be to consider the regional classes support groups like the lesser events on a Pro card. You want to play on the same weekend as the national competitors? You play by the rules that put the national classes first. If not, don't do the events.

As was already mentioned, what percentage of your race weekend budget does the entry fee, inflated or otherwise, represent? What percentage does the differential between what's being charged and what you want to pay, represent in your event budget?

Something that's been hinted at in other posts but which might need to be spelled out more clearly; while competitors at all levels are under represented in the management of most regions, regional racers are even less involved than national competitors.

Posting here gets you nothing but an opportunity to vent. Getting involved in your region is the way to effect change.


Originally posted by JeffW:
Looking at the fees for the doubles and the triple, it looks like the average cost per day is about $130- $137.50. (Hmmm... where have we seen that $137.00 figure before?) Singles for Regional and National events are still outrageously priced.

[JeffW]

I know there have been several posts on this thread. Many of the questions you have asked were answered earlier.

We took the financial statement from the RE for the R/N from last summer and calculated the cost per day per entry. $137. And it included the worker party, insurance, track rent, emergency services - everything listed, including the national tow fund.

Look more closely at the triple for Memorial Day. Regional-Regional- NATIONAL. NO! It can't be done in an IT car!

On the weekend in question, I believe there were about 50 regional-only participants with 41 entries for the Sunday national race. And some of the 41 nationals entered the Saturday regional. Still, the regional only guys took the brunt of the cost for the weekend.

I do not see where factoring my other expenses for the weekend has any bearing on the issue of lopsided entry fees. *see my Twinkie example in an earlier post* It is a simple example of a free market and perceived value of the product.

This is very frustrating because many people who do not have a good explanation tend to drift to tangents, and even non-sequitars, of the topic. (Good track time, "I work Saturday's and can't make both days.", "My engines cost $10K, so the entry fees are insignificant.") Convince me with a solid, logical argument and we'll move to the next topic. So far, nobody has.

This issue should stand on its own merit. My BoD has been unable/unwilling to provide me with a logical explanation up to this point. The pieces may be there, but they have not been able to put them together yet. With the pieces I have, it looks like the regional-only drivers are on the short end.

Jeff

[rjohnson999]

Did I read correctly that you had less than 100 entries combined for the entire weekend? If so, I have a much more fundamental question: Why does your region run National races at all?

Taking the upside down incentive further, it looks like they're trying to buy National entries.

If you are representative of the Reginal community in your region you might want to think about establishing your leadership of that constituency and leverage that into Board influence. Politics, I know, but that's how things get done in this club.

[JeffW]

That was a 'last chance' national, having held a Double National in April, a Single National as part of a R/R/N on Memorial Day, and a Double National on the July 4 weekend. The only National racers who showed up in late July were those who had mechanical and scheduling problems earlier in the year. I know of some who towed to Doubles out of the division to have 2 chances in the weekend to qualify for the Runoffs. Had they broken during the last chance national in their quest they would have to tow, so they skipped the single. The R/N seems to be considered a 'throwaway' by many involved.

I suggested that another 3 day event like the Memorial Day weekend be added to the schedule. We traditionally have a Double Regional scheduled for Labor Day. Tack on a National and let the hybrid child in late July be a Double Regional. Or make the late July event a Double National and turn the Labor Day event into a 3 day Regional.

It is taking time to make the changes. When this was initially addressed last July, there seemed to be progress in getting the entry fees fixed. I trusted that it was in the proper hands and was going to be dealt with. My trust was betrayed. That's why I'm the mad hound on the hunt now. I take every opportunity I can to speak on this issue. And more members are starting to speak out. At last month's Town Hall membership meeting, the topic was brought up again. A longtime (20+ years?) member who had not been to the previous meeting listened to the discussion and began to question the rate structure, saying that he had never thought about it before and asked that something be done. Another example of someone on the inside who was too close to the process to question it.

Any comments on my RE's CF/FF Challenge? Or did I make a convincing argument?

Jeff

[rjohnson999]

It looks like an attempt to duplicate the CENDiv East-West Challenge which is based, in part, on the premise that competitors don't run every event, so designating specific events for the program is a way to focus on getting the biggest entry. The EWC only runs doubles and I would imagine the FF drivers in RMDiv expressed an interest in running doubles.

The only thing this has to do with entry fees is to highlight the issue of which races you choose to enter. It's your entry fee. Use it to YOUR best advantage.

[This message has been edited by rjohnson999 (edited March 21, 2005).]

[datadude]

As far as costs go there are little known facts. Some tracks charge diffrerent rates, by region, by event, by organizing group, services required by the governing organizers and by what day of the week the events are held on. Next is the sanction fee to the organizing group, the insurance fee (make sure you run an event that has insurance), in SCCA there is also an over insurance fee. Add the cost of sending and printing entries. Add the cost of wreckers and medical. Add the cost any specialty that requires a fee (using a third party F&C group or possibly having to cover expense for a cheif of a specialty to come in if your region doesn't have one). Cost and maintainence of all equipment needed. Cost of paper and print for t&s (an average double regional uses almost a case of paper, maybe we should only print 1 per driver. Cost of lunches and party for drivers and workers. Cost of trophies. Cost of all long distance phone calls for all those license and late entry and questions. Cost of mailing a book of results to a bunch of places. Cost of worker giveaways. If it is a double regional or a double ntl it is two sanctions and two seperate insurance fees, tow and class SRF & FSCCA. Cost of tow fund fees for nationals. Cost of SRF, FSCCA fees on all events. Cost of national trophy fund and regional and divisional series fees. This is a start. If you actually want more track time for regional racing a single regional would give you more actual track time. Insurance costs for PDE and regional and road racing ans solo and rally are unique to each venue because of the liability of each. SCCA racing is the safest and most insured racing. We never think we need the insurance until we have to use it.

[Renaultfool]

There was discussion a few posts ago on this thread about "late fees". I for one will never pay a late fee, I will skip the event instead of paying. No one can show me where there are extra costs to the club for not signing up early. The late fee is only a penalty for those, who for one reason or another, did not enter some specified time before an event.

If you look at the dwindling entries at events and then factor in the cost per car, logic would seem to point out that more cars equal less costs per car for the fixed cost part of the budget. Charging a late fee might keep other competitors home, which in the end will make your event less profitable.

I've heard the old "Pro" racing excuse that "it allows us to advertise the drivers competing prior to the event" but remember, most of our events are not spectator events, therefore no advertising.

We are not the best bang for the buck in hobby racing. Motorcycle racing (dirt and paved) that takes place every weekend is cheaper. Drag Racing that takes place every weekend is cheaper. Stock Car Racing that takes place every weekend is cheaper. Tractor Pulls, Mud Runs, Go Karts, and on and on. No, in reality WE are the most expensive hobby racing out there.

I would like to know why. Some say it is the expensive insurance we have. Maybe like all insurance plans, we may have to personally have to pick up a bigger deductable to keep the price in check. Running Double anything is better for the driver, yet we have trouble scheduling double drivers schools, Nationals, and sometimes regionals, because some feel that it may effect their future event.

The drivers pay for all track events, everyone else (Stewards, corner workers etc.) get in free. I apprciate their donated time, but that does not give any of them the right to increase the cost for those paying for the event, the driver.

In our club, everyone's vote should be equal, but common sense would seem to indicate that the club should look to those paying the bills for guidance on the direction of the club and it's events. Instead, our club, through it's structure designed to promote old, out of touch guys to be in charge, has lost sight of what it's customer, the driver, wants. It appears that some of those in charge, both nationally and at the race event level, don't even care, and are simply on a power trip. What we really need is a way, through the GCR and/or Supps, to remove these road block people, by a vote of those effected, event by event if necessary, for the good of the club.

I've raced with several different organizations and in different forms of racing. Right now I hold a national license and race regionals in IT-C, because I like road racing. I am on the board of our region and have served on and off for 15 years, so I know of some of the politics of the club. Drivers pay for the events and drives vote by where they chose to spend their money. If the SCCA had been doing their job, taking care of their customer, NASA would not exist, and our fields wouldn't be shrinking.

Carl "The Renaultfool" Holbrook OVR/MVR Dual

[Andy Bettencourt]

Carl,

My bet is that a late fee has zero to do with profitability. It is simply a DIS-incentive to register late. When you miss the cut-off, you affect - in a negative way - the Registration process and all the items associated with that job - run groups, etc.

We have a nice system up here in the Northeast, electronic Pre-Reg without a pre-payment requirement. They only down-side is that many register and then it's easy to not show up.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[spnkzss]

People need to remember that even tho a weekend may cost X amount and that X amount is "85%" of the cost for a double, it is cheaper to run 2 races in one weekend then it would be to have 2 weekends for 2 races. That cost difference is reflected.

Spanky
#???? ITC Honda Civic WDCR

[racer_tim]

Andy, in San Francisco, we also have an electronic pre-registration, and if you don't show up, your charged a $20 "procesing" fee. You might want to talk to your registrar about implementing some kind of fee for no-shows



------------------
Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

racer_tim @ yahoo dot com

[Wreckerboy]

Here in EMRA-land we have been having a similar discussion regarding pricing for the upcoming 2005 season. Let me take this opportunity to illustrate, at least in part, the factors that drive a sanctioning body to set fees. In the comments above I saw some that touched upon, but did not really address, the factors driving costs:

1. Track rentals. LRP has gone up something like 40% over last year. We have already heard that the fees for '06 will likely be in the "bend over and say you love me" range. WGI is also hitting us with a sizeable increase for '05.

"Oh, and by the way," track management universally says, "if you don't like it tough. We'll give your dates away to any of the 20 or 30 guys who want it."

2. Insurance. The tracks all require it, and prudence dictates it. We are still waiting for the quote for the '05 season, but figure that there will be an increase.

I can't speak for other organizations, but EMRA is incorporated as a Not For Profit organization in New York. Thus, we have no profit motive beyond not operating at a loss. Our primary costs have always been insurance and track rentals. We have no choice but to pass along the increases we are seeing to our membership, the racers, or go out of existence as a racing body.

David Dewhurst mentioned the difference in cost to the entrant between a DE and race event. The tracks that EMRA goes to ALL charge a sizeable difference between the tow types. Rental costs at LRP, for example, are much cheaper for a TT or DE type event than for a wheel to wheel event. Insurance costs are cheaper too.

Again, I can't speak for the other groups out there, and I do not know what their driving factors are. I can only tell you that in a group where there is no profit motive, where the primary overhead is insurance and rentals, we are feeling the pinch also and must reluctantly pass those costs along to the racing memebers.

[chuck baader]

Of all the above posts, I see about two people that understand the costs/work to put on a race. My suggestion is to volunteer to your region to be a race director or assistant race director and experience the excitment of participation! Give back to the club, don't just take.

As far as late fees are concerned, when you register late you cause more work not more money. The late fee is to discourage late entries. As registrar, I have to contact you about your number, verify membership, obtain medical information, check for number conflict, get information to timing and scoring and tech, plus several other things. When I'm trying to put a race together I don't need (and no registrar does!!!) your late entry causing me to take two steps back for every step forward. And late entries at the track are worse...that means all the above must be done at the track and hand carried to timing and scoring, tech, and grid. In my observation, the ones who complain the most are the ones that want to register at the track. Give all your registrars a break and register early.

------------------
Chuck Baader
#36 ITA E30 BMW
Alabama Region Divisional Registrar

[ShelbyRacer]

Well, just on the insurance side of things, it costs more for less time (effectively). At a Club Race (reg or nat), it costs $30 per car. If there are two races, it still costs $30 per car total. For 3 races, same deal. Insurance covers up to 3 consecutive days of competition. As for the other costs, I'm not sure.

Also, on a single day event, typically there is a party/food that night. On a two day event, there is typically no party the second day (or on the third day for a 3day).

Now I realize your argument negates the second point, as you'd have the costs divided evenly, and I can understand that. Consider the point though, that if you're only there for one day, you'd be eating/drinking/etc. and that day would cost more. This combined with the insurance thing however, does account for some, but possibly not all, of the disparity.



------------------
Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."

[JeffW]

Since most, if not all, of the Nationals showed up on Saturday afternoon for their practice session, it was assumed that each of them had a share in the Saturday night feeding frenzy before the Sunday qualifying sessions and races.

One could tweak and kibitz any single line item that we looked at. In no case will you find the $83 difference ($220-$137).

Late fees are a different topic. A valid topic to be sure. Start a new thread on registration.

If the imbalance of fees continue and people go elsewhere (NASA), there won't be anybody to register, early or late.

Let's bring this back into focus. What specific questions should be asked of the BoD to fully explain the fee structure? And why can some regions can make it work by charging 55%-71% of the double rate for the single race day? As mentioned before, I have asked for an explanation and received answers that did not follow logically ($10K engines, good track time, etc.)

Jeff

[jhooten]

And the awnser is:

"There are several facts that you apparently do not know:

1. There is a rule that we can only hold a limited number of National races on
any one course. This means that we CANNOT hold all of our national races on the
short course at TWS.

2. Scheduling an event to start at 8 am, finish at 5 pm and leave a reasonable
time for everyone to have lunch is not an easy task. The short course clears in
less time, so that means that there can be less time between sessions if we run
the short course. Even with the same session lengths, this means that we can
have more sessions.

3. From the time the first car receives the checker flag at start until the
last car is off the track takes 3-5 minutes on the short course and 5-8 minutes
on the long course. What this comes down to is that there is not enough time to
add even one session on Sunday if we are running the long course. I have talked
to the stewards, and played with the schedule myself. For that matter, since I
also work in control I have seen the time pressure that is necessary to finish
by 5 pm.

4. A race budget for a race at TWS is over $50,000. About half of that is the
rental of the track, the remainder is comprised of (in no particular order) tow
fund, divisional rental fees, divisional trophy funds (year-end), insurance,
worker lunches and enticements, sanction fees, online registration fees,
trophies for this event, printing and mailing entry forms or cards, and the race
party. WE do try to make a little extra so that we can pay for regional
newsletters and other expenses of the region that have no income source.

5. With the addition of another entire group in National Racing, we may be
forced from the regional/national weekend concept any way. At the moment, we
see no way to fit another qualifying session and race in on Sunday in the
current format. On the short course, we could add the necessary qualifying
session and race, but it would negate the possibility of restricted regional
races completely.

6. We've been cautioned by our Exec Steward (Jim Averett) that next year we
will have to consider a weekend for one event, either a regional or national but
not both. One alternative that has been suggested is to have a restricted
regional and a national where one or two of the regional groups do not have a
race that weekend, but the groups that are "left out" would rotate from race to
race. I guess in reality, we would have to consider a regional only group as an
"always running", but that still means only one race per weekend. The
difference is that there would also be a national group or two that will also
only have one race that weekend. The only other solution is to shorten the
regional races even more.

Costs for events go up rather than down, although if we don't have all groups or
don't have a regional at all, then the trophy funds and trophies will go away.
But this really all means that entry fees will have to go up to pay the costs
with fewer entrants. I'm not sure at this moment how we would hold a regional
race, but I do know that we want to continue to do so. If you have any
suggestions for solving these problems, I'd be happy to listen. I'd love to
find a solution that would work for us all."


And of course I had to respond:

"I have sat in the control room with you on a long course race weekend before I got my competition liscense, I have worked corners, and worked hot pit for a weekend. So I do have an idea of what is takes to keep the flow going. And yes I do know the requirement for different track configurations. See I don't go blindly into things. I like to know as much as I can about what I am getting myself into before I go diving in.

The lack of the sunday p/q session and on some weekends race was not the major part of my concern. The higher share of the cost for the regional only classes (read that as IT, as time seems to be found for SM to have a sunday race, and after they are still a regional only class until next year) was my major beef. We get 42% as much track time and pay 179% ($4.40 opposed to $2.46 / min) more for what we do get on the upcomming race weekend. I don't mind paying my share but why an I expected to subsidize cost for the national race?
As it is many of us in the IT classes will chose to skip the event and wait for Lone Star's double in May. However if the the single day entry fee was brought closer to parity it would be worth the trip for a single race. Get me down to $3/min and I would be there, and I'm sure more of the others would now find it worth while to make the trip. More cars, better show, lower cost for every one. And I was so looking foward to running the long course for the first time.

Some of us may even be convinced to stick around and work the national making it easier for you to keep on schedule. More bodies doing the work the faster the track is cleaned up after and incident. And I'm fairly certain having 3 or 4 workers on a corner instead of two would be less stressful on all. It may even allow the manning of some of the corner stations that should be occupied that normally are not like 12 or 14. BTW, last year Houston region bribed me with a $50 voucher for working the Feb N/N. That was a nice idea.

SCCA is loosing members to NASA because they feel they get more bang for the buck. NASA finds a way to work in as many a 4 point races in a weekend with seperate practice and qualifing sessions. They have the same amout of track time to make use of as we do. We have been doing it longer than they have so how are they manageing to do it better?

Thanks for taking the time listen to my concerns."

Lets look at this from strictly a profit point of view.

Ok, it cost $50,000 to hold and event at TWS. To keep it simple let us just "assume" that all the entrants register for both days. That puts the break even point at about 170 entries. For the Feb double national there were 177 starters for sundays race. Since there were no regional races, all starters/entrants were national racers many of whom were not from this division. So the hosting region barely broke even.

Now lets look at the last regional held in January with less than ideal weather conditions forcast for the weekend. There were 26 IT/SXR7 and 36 SM cars that started the sunday points race or 72 additional entries. And that does not count drivers of national class cars that do not yet have their national licsense and only ran in the regional races. Let's say that the region was feeling benevolent and gave the reg/resticted reg racers a break and only charged $260 for both days. That would have been an additional $16120 in profit had the region been able to find a way to include the regional classes.

------------------
Jerry
ITS/E 85 Toyota Supra
Lone Star Region

[Maddog]

Originally posted by jhooten:

SCCA is loosing members to NASA because they feel they get more bang for the buck. NASA finds a way to work in as many a 4 point races in a weekend with seperate practice and qualifing sessions. They have the same amout of track time to make use of as we do. We have been doing it longer than they have so how are they manageing to do it better?
[/b]

Don't see many F500s and such at a NAA event. NASA can pick and choose who to run, they do not have to run all the groups that SCCA does.




Now lets look at the last regional held in January with less than ideal weather conditions forcast for the weekend. There were 26 IT/SXR7 and 36 SM cars that started the sunday points race or 72 additional entries. And that does not count drivers of national class cars that do not yet have their national licsense and only ran in the regional races. Let's say that the region was feeling benevolent and gave the reg/resticted reg racers a break and only charged $260 for both days. That would have been an additional $16120 in profit had the region been able to find a way to include the regional classes.



Yea, and a lot of the National guys stayed home that weekend. I don't have the entry for the January race here but I'd be amazed if it went over 150 even with the SM and IT folks.



[This message has been edited by Maddog (edited March 21, 2005).]

[ShelbyRacer]

Originally posted by JeffW:
Since most, if not all, of the Nationals showed up on Saturday afternoon for their practice session, it was assumed that each of them had a share in the Saturday night feeding frenzy before the Sunday qualifying sessions and races.

Right, but their second race day didn't involve that multi-thousand dollar meal, and they paid the two-day rate (or am I incorrect on their entry fee?).


Originally posted by JeffW:

One could tweak and kibitz any single line item that we looked at. In no case will you find the $83 difference ($220-$137).

Agreed, I was just trying to point out a few items that woudl be different in a one-day vs. two day, so that you could examine those issues when working up questions. It wasn't meant to say you're wrong, because I believe you have a very valid point.

BIG EDIT- deleted this part because you already did what I suggested (and I'm an idiot who didn't read that part before for some reason).

------------------
Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."



[This message has been edited by ShelbyRacer (edited March 21, 2005).]

[VWPartsGuy]

You need to know that some costs are fixed, some are per car and some are could be a combination of the two. I pity the guy that has to budget for a 41 car Regional and a 50 car national. I would think you would have to pad the numbers a little because some of those costs don't go any lower if you get 75 cars instead of 91. Does the region need to make $83 per car? I dunno I'm not privy to their finances and maybe if everyone studies the numbers you can get that number down. But remember, how much per car could the region afford to LOSE before they can't pay some of the pre-pays that go into holding an event.

------------------
Thomas Benham

[RKramden]

Originally posted by JeffW:
Andy,

Actual cost per driver was $137 per day for the R/N held at Second Creek Raceway last July. This took into account track rental, tow truck, ambulance, insurance, sanction fees, and even the beer and food for the Saturday post race party...everything on the financial disclosure given to us by our BoD for that race weekend.

Jeff, I'd bet that the actual cost per driver is higher than that. I think your BoD did themselves a dis-service by not disclosing ALL the costs.

Do you folks mail entry forms out or do you use an on-line system? Printing entry forms costs money, as does postage. Paying for a on-line system costs money, too. (But not as much.)

Who is paying for the office types of supplies that Registration and T&S consume during the two days?

If you use radios at the track, they may be a one time cost, but you have to look at the cost spread over many events (or years), and then there are repairs on those radios as well.

Does Tech have any equipment for checking cars? What about Tech Stickers? Those cost money as well.

How about maintainence for the fire extinguishers for F&C and the pits? They have to be recharged every now and then, and some of them age and cannot be used unless they are tested. Just about ALL the ones in my region get used every few years, and if they don't, we run a fire school and use them. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif (Well, we run the school because we want workers trained, but re-filling all those extinguishers costs more than a few bucks. It is part of racing, and it is their budget.)

Who hauls all the regions equipment to the track, and in what? Does the gas get paid for?

Who is paying for the phone calls and such that the Race Chair has to make to get everything taken care of?

I could keep going on this like for a long, long time. Lots of little things, but there are so many of them that they start to add up.


Another question is what is the policy of the region. My region has Race, Rally, and Solo programs as well as a region wide program. Each has their own budgets and costs, and we do not really cross subsidize between the programs. It also lets me look at the ENTIRE cost for road racing, as an example.

Some other regions that I know of are much smaller and the funds are co-mingled, they dont have two or three healthy programs, and it is a policy of one of those regions to fund much of the operating costs of the entire region from the profits they make at the very, very few races they do a year. Hey, most of the drivers they get are from other regions, so they are taxing non-members to run their region. Its good for their members. Their policy, they set the price.

Another region I knew about had a policy of paying transportation and lodging costs for the Stewards and some of the speciality chiefs. I'd bet that those items never make it to their (public) balance sheet for the event, if they even have one.

I don't know what your region does, but in any case, there must be more costs then you were told about.

[Ron]

This is why I think there are too many race weekends. If there were only one double every four to six weeks maybe we would have huge car counts that would drive down prices. Once again I would love to run in an ITB race with 35 or 40 cars in my class.

Ron
ITB Mustang, Southeast

[pgipson]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> They pay $295 and ...We pay $220 </font>

Sounds like a helluva deal. Our (AZR)R/N last December and this March was $185 for the regional and 195 for the National. Why should there be much difference in costs? Except for towing fee contribution the cost to do the race is about the same. Track time is not a relevant measure unless your goal is to do a PDE type thing. If all you want to do is buy some track time there are all sorts of organizations that will cater to you. But there won't be much racing.



------------------
Spec RX7 #11
Scottsdale AZ

[jhooten]

You didn't read the entire post did you? $295 for 2 days and $220 for one day. Why should The IT drivers have to subsidize the national races? You know the ones we are not welcome to participate in.

[rjohnson999]

You mean like you didn't read the GCR before you elected to run an IT car?


Originally posted by jhooten:
You didn't read the entire post did you? $295 for 2 days and $220 for one day. Why should The IT drivers have to subsidize the national races? You know the ones we are not welcome to participate in.

[ddewhurst]

***Why should The IT drivers have to subsidize the national races?***

Regional drivers don't need subsidise the National races. Stay home.

Could it be that the organisers of National races know that a give number of Regional drivers will show, which helps the National event be profitable.

In the past I had supported the Cat National @ Road America when it was a National/IT Regional put on by my Region. Last year it was no longer was a IT Regional, it was a National/Spec Miata.

If they change the format back to National/Regional I will stay home.

Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David Dewhurst
250772
Milwaukee Region
ITA/7 #14

[datadude]

As for Regional racers subsidizing National racing forget that one. If you insist on having "doubles" your cost will be higher, TWO SANCTIONS, TWO INSURANCE, TWO TROPHY STD. Take a look at the cost of insurance and sanctions and also the audit form for additional costs at the SCCA website and then go to forms. Remeber this doesn't include your division fees that need to be paid for 2 events in one weekend. This should explain some of it. While you are there you will see the cost for the PDE's are lower because of their nature.

[Chris Wire]

Sorry, but I'm w/ jhooten on this one.

All this talk about "You mean like you didn't read the GCR before you elected to run an IT car?", and the like, are secondary to the point.

If a region uses regional classes to bolster the car counts for a National weekend, it should be the regional classes that get the majority of any discount, with some portion also benefiting the National guys. The reasoning as I see it is the amount of track time for the National guys is fixed and guaranteed. Any time left over is given to the regional guys, and it is usually far below what the Nat guys get.

In Central FL, we couple one Regional in January with the season opener National, and it is usually very well attended because it is now run on the long course. I don't have firm figures but if I remember correctly, the Regional portion was very fairly priced relative to the National race. The only other combined event is the ECR at Daytona in May, again very well attended by both groups, and fairly priced relative to track time.

------------------
Chris Wire
Team Wire Racing
ITS Mazda RX7 #35
[email protected]

[ShelbyRacer]

Originally posted by datadude:

If you insist on having "doubles" your cost will be higher, TWO SANCTIONS, TWO INSURANCE, TWO TROPHY STD. Take a look at the cost of insurance and sanctions and also the audit form for additional costs at the SCCA website and then go to forms.

While the Sanction fee is doubled, the insurance fee covers up to 3 consecutive days of practice/competition, so any drivers who compete in BOTH events will only count as ONE car for insurance.

BTW- his argument was that doubles are a lot CHEAPER than singles when looked at per day, and as I stated above, the insurance savings is a part of that (albeit a small part).

------------------
Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."

[jhooten]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
You mean like you didn't read the GCR before you elected to run an IT car?



I'm a bit slow today. And you assume too much. Care expand upon your implication?

No, never mind. I will enlighten you. This is my first year as a liscensed competetor and have yet to complete the requirements for a national liscense. SOOOOOOOOO, even if I had an Trans Am legal GT1 car I would still be suck running on Saturday only.

And, I had two different GCRs before I ever statered working on my car. I case you missed the comment I made in my responce to the RE, I like to know what I'm getting into before I dive in.

My car is classed in ITS and GT2 so all I have to do is add leg bars to the cage, put in a fuel cell and fire system, and windshield clips and it is legal (not competative, but legal) for a national class. When I finish my four races and send in the licsense upgrade at the end of this race year I will have the winter to do the basic safety upgrades, and then do the performance upgrades as I go along. One of the reasons I chose the car two years ago. So was that a good enough use of the two GCRs before deciding to run an IT car?

[rjohnson999]

With snide comments like this, it's becomming more and more apparent that you're wanting this organization to be a perfect reflection of yourself. So I'll repeat what's been hinted at and even said directly: If you don't like what they're charging, don't do the race. Your region has a corporate charter under whatever state it's in and it operates according to those rules as well as the Club's requirements. How those apply in your state is probably different than mine, but entry in a race does not confer special status beyond being a customer. Your membership is a different kettle of fish. As such, it, too, has no special status because you drive a particular car in a particular class.

Either work the club/region politics or choose the events you'll support. Or both. This forum isn't doing either.


Originally posted by jhooten:
You know the ones we are not welcome to participate in.

[jhooten]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
With snide comments like this, it's becomming more and more apparent that you're wanting this organization to be a perfect reflection of yourself. So I'll repeat what's been hinted at and even said directly: If you don't like what they're charging, don't do the race. Your region has a corporate charter under whatever state it's in and it operates according to those rules as well as the Club's requirements. How those apply in your state is probably different than mine, but entry in a race does not confer special status beyond being a customer. Your membership is a different kettle of fish. As such, it, too, has no special status because you drive a particular car in a particular class.

Either work the club/region politics or choose the events you'll support. Or both. This forum isn't doing either.




Dear Mr. Johnson,

You have no idea who I am or what I want from this organization. Your speculations nowhere near accurate.

Where does this "special status" come from? Who claimed special status until you mentioned it?

Up until this year that majority of the Weekends that were not doubles had been R/N/RR. Now all of a sudden, and with out the courtesy of even a little blurb in the news letter giving a clue as to the reasoning behind the decision, it has been determined that there in no longer time in the day to hold the Sunday restricted regional. Which, BTW, only took up one 30 minutes session as the grid was set by the race results from the saturday race, to make it clear there was no P&Q for the regional classes only the race on sunday. And yes I am aware that to do so took three sanction numbers with the attendant cost.

Now it has been a concern for the last few years that nationals, single or double, were at best a break even for the hosting region, and often are net losers. On the weekends which were a R/N/RR there was a greater difference in the entry fees for those entering the R/RR and those entering the R/N. With the sanction fee being higher and the other cost associated with a national (tow fee for one, as has been mentioned) that are not required for a regional it was understood and accepted that the national entrants would be charged more. Part of the idea was to attract more regional entrants to enhance the profit potential.

Texas is a large state and some have a very long tow. By giving them two points races in a weekend instead of just one it gives them more incentive to make the tow instead of choosing to skip the weekend and wait for the next R/R. More entrants the lower the cost to all entered. BTW as large as this state is there are only two SCCA approved tracks. The infield/oval at Texas Motor Speedway near DFW and Texas World Speedway near College Station. No Problem Raceway in LA. is pending approval Which may give the division another option.

Next year when I have a national liscense and can drive in the both races will I still feel the same way I do now or will I be happy I don't have to be excluded any more? Yes I will feel the same. To stay alive we as a club must grow. To grow we must attract new members. New members have few choices but to strt racing at the regional level. If "WE" make them feel like lessor beings or make the price so high they don't feel it is a good value they are going to go the autoX, fast and furious, or drag strip routes. (Do you know what it cost for the friday night test and tune at the local dragstrip? $15 and you can run as often and you get in line. Gates open at 6pm and close at midnight.) And "WE" will die a slow painful death.

So what are your ideas to contain cost, attact new members, and keep the ones we have?

Now that I know when and where the Region BOD meetings are I will be making my presence known.

Now have a nice day.

[Maddog]

Originally posted by jhooten:

Now it has been a concern for the last few years that nationals, single or double, were at best a break even for the hosting region, and often are net losers. On the weekends which were a R/N/RR there was a greater difference in the entry fees for those entering the R/RR and those entering the R/N. With the sanction fee being higher and the other cost associated with a national (tow fee for one, as has been mentioned) that are not required for a regional it was understood and accepted that the national entrants would be charged more. Part of the idea was to attract more regional entrants to enhance the profit potential.



I agree that entry fees could be a lot more equitable than they are. This is an issue that needs to be addressed by each Region, but they won't do anything until the drivers let them know they are unhappy. Bitching here won't help, go to a Region meeting and hammer on your RE and Race Chair.


[This message has been edited by Maddog (edited March 23, 2005).]

[Maddog]

Originally posted by jhooten:

Up until this year that majority of the Weekends that were not doubles had been R/N/RR. Now all of a sudden, and with out the courtesy of even a little blurb in the news letter giving a clue as to the reasoning behind the decision, it has been determined that there in no longer time in the day to hold the Sunday restricted regional.


This is not something that came up overnight, it has been discussed at great length at SW Div meetings for the last 5 years or so.

The restricted regionals started to go away 4 or 5 years ago when the National groups grew from 4 to 5, and SM made the one Regional group grow to 2. This took us from 5 to 7 race groups.

The TWS 2.9 takes longer to clear between sessions than the 1.8 does, and there simply isn't enough time to run 7 groups on both days on the long track. In order to keep the RRs on the schedule, a number of races usually held on the long track were shifted to the short layout.





Which, BTW, only took up one 30 minutes session as the grid was set by the race results from the saturday race, to make it clear there was no P&Q for the regional classes only the race on sunday.



With 2 groups, it takes just over an hour including cleanup on the 1.8. It's doable on the short course, but on the long course there isn't another hour in the day.

A lot of people have crunched the numbers and nobody has found a way to add time to the day.

[pgipson]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">You didn't read the entire post did you? $295 for 2 days and $220 for one day </font>

Yeah, I read the entire post. A Regional $220. A National $295. A restricted regional (which is or is not happening -- that's not clear) at some undefined price, the assumption being it was included before and isn't available now. Doesn't change the argument. Still a helluva deal. Where else are you going to go to RACE your car for that amount of money?

------------------
Spec RX7 #11
Scottsdale AZ

[Daryl DeArman]

.

[This message has been edited by Daryl DeArman (edited March 24, 2005).]

[jhooten]

Originally posted by pgipson:
Yeah, I read the entire post. A Regional $220. A National $295. A restricted regional (which is or is not happening -- that's not clear) at some undefined price, the assumption being it was included before and isn't available now. Doesn't change the argument. Still a helluva deal. Where else are you going to go to RACE your car for that amount of money?




$295 for both the saturday regional and the sunday national. $220 for the saturday regional only. There is no RR on sunday. 42% as much track time, 75% of the entry fee.

------------------
Jerry
ITS/E 85 Toyota Supra
Lone Star Region

[jhooten]

Maddog,

I stand corrected. Looking at the archives from the 2004 season on the division website all three R/N/RR weekends were on the short course.

[rjohnson999]

There is a difference between National and Regional racing. For one, the GCR specifies a minimum amount of practice/qualifying time and minimum race distance/time. No such requirement exists for Regionals. The GCR controls the schedule. It would be interesting to compare the amount of track time, according to GCR requirements, with the actual amount of time provided last year and the proposed schedule for this year. I suspect the prior schedule was in violation of the GCR and this year's schedule corrects that.

Again, if you don't like the schedule and prices, don't do the event. The GCR requires that the National program take precedence over anything else scheduled for the weekend. You can "confront" your BoD till you turn blue, but they are not in a position to change that in any way.


Originally posted by jhooten:

Dear Mr. Johnson,

You have no idea who I am or what I want from this organization. Your speculations nowhere near accurate.

Where does this "special status" come from? Who claimed special status until you mentioned it?

Up until this year that majority of the Weekends that were not doubles had been R/N/RR. Now all of a sudden, and with out the courtesy of even a little blurb in the news letter giving a clue as to the reasoning behind the decision, it has been determined that there in no longer time in the day to hold the Sunday restricted regional. Which, BTW, only took up one 30 minutes session as the grid was set by the race results from the saturday race, to make it clear there was no P&Q for the regional classes only the race on sunday. And yes I am aware that to do so took three sanction numbers with the attendant cost.

Now it has been a concern for the last few years that nationals, single or double, were at best a break even for the hosting region, and often are net losers. On the weekends which were a R/N/RR there was a greater difference in the entry fees for those entering the R/RR and those entering the R/N. With the sanction fee being higher and the other cost associated with a national (tow fee for one, as has been mentioned) that are not required for a regional it was understood and accepted that the national entrants would be charged more. Part of the idea was to attract more regional entrants to enhance the profit potential.

Texas is a large state and some have a very long tow. By giving them two points races in a weekend instead of just one it gives them more incentive to make the tow instead of choosing to skip the weekend and wait for the next R/R. More entrants the lower the cost to all entered. BTW as large as this state is there are only two SCCA approved tracks. The infield/oval at Texas Motor Speedway near DFW and Texas World Speedway near College Station. No Problem Raceway in LA. is pending approval Which may give the division another option.

Next year when I have a national liscense and can drive in the both races will I still feel the same way I do now or will I be happy I don't have to be excluded any more? Yes I will feel the same. To stay alive we as a club must grow. To grow we must attract new members. New members have few choices but to strt racing at the regional level. If "WE" make them feel like lessor beings or make the price so high they don't feel it is a good value they are going to go the autoX, fast and furious, or drag strip routes. (Do you know what it cost for the friday night test and tune at the local dragstrip? $15 and you can run as often and you get in line. Gates open at 6pm and close at midnight.) And "WE" will die a slow painful death.

So what are your ideas to contain cost, attact new members, and keep the ones we have?

Now that I know when and where the Region BOD meetings are I will be making my presence known.

Now have a nice day.

[jhooten]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
There is a difference between National and Regional racing. For one, the GCR specifies a minimum amount of practice/qualifying time and minimum race distance/time. No such requirement exists for Regionals. The GCR controls the schedule. It would be interesting to compare the amount of track time, according to GCR requirements, with the actual amount of time provided last year and the proposed schedule for this year. I suspect the prior schedule was in violation of the GCR and this year's schedule corrects that.

Again, if you don't like the schedule and prices, don't do the event. The GCR requires that the National program take precedence over anything else scheduled for the weekend. You can "confront" your BoD till you turn blue, but they are not in a position to change that in any way.




Dude what is your problem? You tell me to get involved. So I said I will make my presence know at the BOD meeting and you come up with "confront" the board. I can make my presence known without starting a confrontation even if you can't.

In a previous post you made some wild claim about "special status" and entering making one nothing but a customer. Even though earlier in the "discussion" I had made the point that as far as the hosting region was concerned I was nothing to them but a customer since I was not a member of their region. A customer has the right to make their opinions of the product known. The supplier of the goods/services can listen to the customers concerns and use the feed back to improve the product or they can cop the attitude "where else you got to go?"

We had a race chair from houston region last year who manged to find ways to give "us" a 45mile/45min race once a year or so. Didn't have to do it but did. I guess I should go back and file a protest for a violation of the GCR by a race official. I won't, that would be confrontational. I did at the time tell that official how much it was appreciated.

With the reactionary attitude displayed by some of the members here I am beginning to understand why NASA is looking better to some SCCA members.

[Maddog]

Originally posted by jhooten:

We had a race chair from houston region last year who manged to find ways to give "us" a 45mile/45min race once a year or so. Didn't have to do it but did. I guess I should go back and file a protest for a violation of the GCR by a race official. I won't, that would be confrontational. I did at the time tell that official how much it was appreciated.



What section of the GCR would this protest allege to have been violated???

[jhooten]

Originally posted by Maddog:
What section of the GCR would this protest allege to have been violated???



Mr. Johnson in the one that claimed the schedule was in violation of the GCR. Ask him.

[jhooten]

Originally posted by Maddog:
I agree that entry fees could be a lot more equitable than they are. This is an issue that needs to be addressed by each Region, but they won't do anything until the drivers let them know they are unhappy. Bitching here won't help, go to a Region meeting and hammer on your RE and Race Chair.


[This message has been edited by Maddog (edited March 23, 2005).]


The post that started this contained the e-mail I sent to RE of the hosting region expressing my concerns. Since I am not a member of the region concerned I believed that would be the best way to contact them.

The e-mail body was posted and then the question was asked of the group was the request unreasonable.

The discussion at the beginning was civil and some good information was posted. Then as seems to happen all to often someone got a burr up their rear. The civlity is rapidly fading and the tone of the discussion is turning more toward pissing match.

Were it in my power I would lock it now before the name calling starts.

[Knestis]

That's not what he said.

A suggestion, if I might? Having read this strand finally, there are a dozen issues bubbling around in it and we all aren't even arguing about the same ones.

If I think Maryanne is hotter than Ginger, and someone else thinks "Tastes great" is more important than "less filling," we don't get any closer to agreeing by simply raising the volume or lowering the civility level of the argument.

Get a cold beverage out of the fridge, start from the beginning, read the entire thing, then argue your point.

K

[Maddog]

Originally posted by jhooten:
Mr. Johnson in the one that claimed the schedule was in violation of the GCR. Ask him.



You are correct.

[Maddog]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
It would be interesting to compare the amount of track time, according to GCR requirements, with the actual amount of time provided last year and the proposed schedule for this year. I suspect the prior schedule was in violation of the GCR and this year's schedule corrects that.



Nope.

If you re-read the thread you will see that as the number of race groups grew, the restricted regionals were cut in order to keep the nationals at the required length.

[pavis]

"The TWS 2.9 takes longer to clear between sessions than the 1.8 does, and there simply isn't enough time to run 7 groups on both days on the long track. In order to keep the RRs on the schedule, a number of races usually held on the long track were shifted to the short layout. "

Since this issue has gone public.... Do other regions hear this? By this I mean "takes too long to clear the track." I've made several suggestions to shorten "track clearing" but am interested to see how other regions do this.

[rjohnson999]

You really do have a reading comprehension problem. I said the GCR has minimums for practice/qualifying for Nationals and a distance/time minimum for National races. Then I said there was no such restriction on Regionals. I suggested comparing the 2004 schedule to the 2005 against those GCR requirements. Did you? What does it show?


Originally posted by jhooten:
Mr. Johnson in the one that claimed the schedule was in violation of the GCR. Ask him.

[rjohnson999]

I stand corrected. Glad to see the region maintain the integrity of the National portion of the program in the face of increased race groups. This situation highlights one of the major problems with combining National and Regional weekends.


Originally posted by Maddog:
Nope.

If you re-read the thread you will see that as the number of race groups grew, the restricted regionals were cut in order to keep the nationals at the required length.

[rjohnson999]

I would imagine Chicago and Milwaukee Regions have worked this out. They've been working Road America's four miles for a few years now.


Originally posted by pavis:
"The TWS 2.9 takes longer to clear between sessions than the 1.8 does, and there simply isn't enough time to run 7 groups on both days on the long track. In order to keep the RRs on the schedule, a number of races usually held on the long track were shifted to the short layout. "

Since this issue has gone public.... Do other regions hear this? By this I mean "takes too long to clear the track." I've made several suggestions to shorten "track clearing" but am interested to see how other regions do this.