Dave's Question

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Dave Zaslow:
Gregg and Jay,

Look at lfttech brochure (rightmost button)and tell us what you think. Perhaps on a different thread? This one is getting hijacked away from its estimable purpose.

Dave Z

Dave,

Random observations:

1) Because it is a different version the HANS device--the vertical component's reaction being resisted by a structure at the rear rather than the front of the body--one would expect to see similar head load reductions.

2) Page 2 is confusing. What "80% rule" are they referring to? Why is the baseline value relatively low? Why is the G-Force value so high? Is this the NASCAR pulse, but not on the Delphi sled? Lastly, this is a different chart from that on the Web site, which has changed recently. Perhaps they just got sloppy, but one would prefer the loose ends tied together.

3) Dealing with non-scientific issues, I would not want to drag it out the window in a hurry. It requires some modification of the seat and, IIRC, comes in different models to accomodate various seat angles. That's not a disadvantage of course, but good to know if you are shopping and have multiple cars.

4) I love the images at the top of page 3 showing the belts coming off the HANS device. Excellent video captures.

Jay?

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[Mike Guenther]

Gregg, how about posting the link to the site you are referring to so that those who read this thread can see what you are discussing. Thanks, Mike

[gsbaker]

Dave is referring to the brochure, which is here: http://www.lfttech.com/images/R3_Brochure.pdf

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[This message has been edited by gsbaker (edited March 07, 2005).]

[Wayne]

I sure as heck wish some of these h&n manufactures would get some decent technical writers/marketing guys/engineers so they could make a decent freaking sales brochure. What a cluster of a brochure. Leaves me with more questions than answers.

Sled test this, sled test that, gforce this, gforce that. How does the damn thing actually work in the car? Show some decent freaking pictures and illustrations for goodness sakes. I want to know in step by step detail what the "latching up process" entails with these systems.

Here is the deal with these things. Most of the racers out there generally think of restraints like the hans and issac to be relatively equal in terms of protection. "Good enough" if you will.

It's only the engineers and detail thinking people like we have on this site that want the down and dirty highly detailed analysis. Gforce this gforce that, what exact phase was the moon in when the test was run etc. (not that there is anything wrong with that mind you)

Beyond that the racer wants to know price, and then how hard the thing is to get into, what is it going to do to my suit up time? And then, how much of a bitch is going to be if I have to bail out the window?

I was immediately interested in this particular device because I saw the statement about being able to leave it in the car (attached to the seat I guess). If that kind of thing reduces the complexity of getting belted in over the hans or others, I'm interested.

Yet looking at this sales brochure I can't begin to tell how the thing actually interfaces with the car. I learned long ago in my business to never let the engineers write sales copy. Not if you want to actually sell product anyway.

I have the engineers (and legal) review the copy before it goes to press so that we make sure the technical data is accurate. But the engineers sure as heck don't design sales stuff...

You have to keep it basic, basic, basic. Communicate clearly and simply what the product does, AND HOW THE PRODUCT WORKS.

Thus endith my rant
Thank you for listening
Good night http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
Wayne

[This message has been edited by Wayne (edited March 07, 2005).]

[Wayne]

Alright then, guess I'm not done yet.

If this thing really does "stay in the car", then that eliminates any concern over getting hung up on exit, right? The only thing that might snag would be the rings on the side of the helmet. In that respect it would be even better than the issac with the U brackets.

Second thing, is this device releasable from a single point?

Wayne

[Knestis]

Random observation: If one were using a foamed -in seat like we used to put in the formula cars and sports racers, this might be part of a sensible package - but "attached to the seat?"

K

[gsbaker]

Re "stay in the seat",

1) The brochure says "not approved." No kidding. Guess what happens when your body comes out of the seat 8-10 inches and your head does not?

2) It is a three-point release--the strap and two helmet points.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Wayne:
...Sled test this, sled test that, gforce this, gforce that. How does the damn thing actually work in the car?...

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is exactly why a simple measure like percentage head load reduction (HLR) should be used.

Zero to 100; more is better. Doesn't really matter what the Gs are as long as the hit is in the same direction.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">[Communicate clearly and simply what the product does, AND HOW THE PRODUCT WORKS.</font>

How it works? Even that is a push, Wayne. How does a radio work? How does a computer work? Sometimes you just have to say it is magic. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[planet6racing]

I think, as far as how it works, Wayne is referring to how to get into and out-of the device. I was wondering the same thing.

Also, the images with the harness coming off the HANS looks completely fake. I realize that he was trying to highlight it, but it looks much worse than if he had put arrows in, pointing to the separation.

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[Wayne]

Originally posted by planet6racing:
I think, as far as how it works, Wayne is referring to how to get into and out-of the device. I was wondering the same thing.

Yes, that is what I was referring to. It's like asking someone what time it is, and they proceed to tell you how their watch was built.

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Wayne:
...It's like asking someone what time it is, and they proceed to tell you how their watch was built.

Look at the images, Wayne. There is a clasp in the front. You put it on and take it off like a backpack.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[Tristan Smith]

Anyone know the price? I didn't see any pricing info on their website. If it were priced less than the HANS I think I would be interested. Gregg, do you see anything inherently flawed with the design?

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Tristan Smith
Buffalo's Southwest Cafe
ITA Nissan 240sx #56

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Tristan Smith:
Anyone know the price? I didn't see any pricing info on their website. If it were priced less than the HANS I think I would be interested.

Tristan,

It's $895, $35 more than the cheapest HANS.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Gregg, do you see anything inherently flawed with the design?</font>

Yes. You have to wear it, which means you need to keep it tight and must drag it out the window. I guess it is going to take someone getting barbequed live on national TV before this sinks in.

It should produce good sled numbers if tight enough, but there seems to be some dispute regarding those claims. At least their Web site keeps changing.

I wish they would just hit it on the Wayne State sled, like everyone else.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[Wayne]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
You put it on and take it off like a backpack.
My point exactly. Where in the brochure does it give any inkling of how to put that whole mess on, or take it off? It doesn't say, anywhere on the literature...

Many of us(and particularly those in the h&n business) can look at that and think of several different ways to operate that contraption. My point is most racers need simple, understandable information. In addition to the gforce, wayne state, test sled stuff, they need info on how long it takes to suit up with these devices, how easy it is to get out of the car etc.

Too often engineering driven companies loose sight of that fact. They layer their customer information with tons of technical stuff and little about how the customer would actually use the product.

The engineer has lived with the design for x number of months. He knows it inside and out, he has analyzed it six ways from Sunday. He can look at it and determine a half dozen ways the product could be operated. Yet he fails to put himself in the customers shoes when attempting to describe the products operation. The customer, who has not been living with the product for last umpteen months.

In our business we make the engineers write the first draft (and subsequent drafts) of the products operating manual. This is done after customer requirements are established, but before the product is actually designed. This forces the engineer to think about the operation of the product from the customers viewpoint as he works through the design process.

But this is all off-tangent to this thread. As far as this specific product goes, I don't like it. It looks like a cluster to put on and take off. I have enough trouble squeezing through my small side window opening as it is, much less trying to drag that backboard through with me.

Gregg,
None of this is aimed at you, I realize this is not your product. Just a little observation/frustration with engineering companies (not just h&n companies). Companies who seem to loose sight of the fact that they must view the product from the customers shoes, as well as design a technically acceptable product.

Wayne

[gsbaker]

Wayne,

No offense taken. You are spot on.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

FYI, Hubbard/Downing issued a press release this week claiming the R3 displayed a HLR of 43.4% compared to 67.9% for a HANS device on the Delphi sled configured for SFI Spec 38.1.

We will stay out of this.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[shwah]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
FYI, Hubbard/Downing issued a press release this week claiming the R3 displayed a HLR of 43.4% compared to 67.9% for a HANS device on the Delphi sled configured for SFI Spec 38.1.

We will stay out of this.



Not to nitpick, but while HLR seems a valid metric for HNR performance, you don't seem to provide that data for the ISAAC. The only chart I find on the website displays pounds of force on a 45g 30deg frontal offset hit. Maybe I just can't find it...

Chris

[gsbaker]

Chris,

Actually, our chart was originally using that metric, but folks were confused by the term so we went with raw data. Perhaps it is time to be revised.

Based on the info we were provided for the Wayne State baseline loads, the Isaac and the HANS were at about 85% HLR. You can get this by looking at the chart and seeing how much the loads were reduced from about 1,800#.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com