Renting a race car...

[RSTPerformance]

http://www.rstperformance.com/pictures/rstpictures2004season/ARRC2004/wes2.JPG


Due to our reduced local races this season we are entertaining the idea of renting out our ITB Audi's at local events. We would like some feedback...

$1,000 NHIS ($1,300 Lime Rock) rental of either the red/silver ITB Audi or the blue/silver ITB Audi (as raced last year at the ARRC, Qualified Pole and Off Pole by almost 1 second to the third place qualifying car!!!) for the weekend (1 day or 2 day) includes:

• Arrive and drive (wear your nice clothes… You will not have load, unload or even work on the car).
• 1 "Spare Car" (The other car not rented would be at the track as a "spare car" available for free if the original car had any MECHANICAL issues). We offer this because the cars are relatively stock (they are IT cars, not production cars) and it is impossible to make a driver error (such as over revving) that would result in damaging any mechanical part of the car. (But they are Audi's and they do get upset once in a while http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif ).
• 2 new Hoosier tires (fronts)
• Gas for the race car
• 1 Entry fee
• Trackside support: This would include mechanical repairs, crash damage to get you running if feasible, as well as full car setup (tire pressures and temperatures after each session followed up by adjustments to suspension).
• Towing to and from the event
• Vinyl lettering changed with your name and number on the car. (Sponsors names can be added/changed/removed for a fee).

The reason this would be an “all inclusive” ride with new tires, gas, entry fee, spare car, and trackside support is because that is what it takes to win, and the cars are capable of winning any ITB race in the country and we feel that any renter should go onto the track with the ability to win.

Obviously if a renter was more interested in driving a “fun car” and was not interested in us supplying any of the above “features” such as new tires, towing, gas, entry fee, spare car, trackside support, etc. then the price would be reduced.

Also the reason for the extra $300 at Lime rock would be additional towing bill, Friday (premium day), and also to cover the increased entries this season at Lime Rock events.

Summary of expenses and justification of cost (NHIS):

Entrée Fee: ~ $200.00
2 Tires new and mounted and balanced: ~ $400.00
Gas for race car: ~ $50.00
Travel expenses to NHIS for cars and crew: ~ $75.00
1 Dinner for 3-7 crew members (depends on the weekend): ~ $150.00
Vinyl Lettering: ~$25.00

Total expenses: ~ $900.00 leaving $100.00 to pay for preventive maintenance wear and tear on the car such as brakes, CV joints, wheel bearings, motor, transmission, shocks/struts, rear tires etc. etc. etc.

Obviously if the car was crashed (no matter whose fault) the renter would have to pay for resulting damages. We would also recommend pre inspecting the car before renting, and we would require some paperwork to cover any personal injuries as a result of an accident due to either mechanical or driver error.

What are your thoughts??? Is it worth our effort??? Do you think that people would be interested???

Raymond Blethen
RST Performance Racing
www.rstperformance.com (http://www.rstperformance.com) (in need of a major update)
1-603-738-6686

[planet6racing]

Raymond:

Just a word of warning. It is not impossible to give your cars a mechanical over-rev (e.g. missing 4th and putting it into 2nd). Watch out in how you phrase that.

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[RSTPerformance]

We will be careful how that is worded... thanks!!! As I was typing I thought of someone destroying the tranny because they have no clue how to shift... or even worse destroying motor mounts because they shift to hard or something similar... As for the motor... 4th to 2nd at Pocono on the front straight slowed the car down fast, but didn't do anything to the motor... Don't ask... just realize that we will give bonus points to anyone who can blow up one of our motors http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif LOL...

Thanks for the input... what about pricing and demand??? Be honest http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif I don’t want to waste our time… Many of you seem to support the rent a ride theory when getting started… Is this a value or no?

Raymond

[gsbaker]

Raymond,

SRFs are going for $700/day with full track support.

Zinging the top end beyond X rpm is another ~$1,500 and every flat spotted tire is a charge also.

Be careful of the renters. One CSR told me one customer had never driven a stick before when they showed up for their first school.

G

[JohnRW]

You're pricing yourself waaaay too low.
A front-running car with new rubber, 'wet' (i.e. gased) with complete trackside support ? You're probably in the $1500+ range without entry, unless you consider this 'charity work'. Your time (prep & while you're there) is worth something - don't sell yourselves short.

The SRF CSR's like Motion or Hagerman get $1500-1700 for a Regional weekend (3-4 sessions) rental. They get 200-400 for trackside support and transport, plus a buck a mile for the tow, just for their 'arrive and drive' guys who own their own cars. You may not consider yourselves to be in that league, but you are. You know the cars and you know what you're doing. If potential renters think that's too high...then they're looking for a gift. Suggest to them that they investigate the costs that you've incurred to get to where YOU are now.

Let the driver pay their own race entry. That way, it's THEIR problem if they screw it up. Besides, if you're the 'Entrant' (which you would probably be, if you're submitting the entry and payment) then YOU are on the hook for any transgressions/behavioral issues, per the GCR.

Don't cater to the 'bottom-fishers' - that's a crowd you should avoid. Most of them are 'racing tourists' - you'll see them once, and never see them again.

[Greg Amy]

$1,000 NHIS ($1,300 Lime Rock) rental of either...

Total expenses: ~ $900.00 leaving $100.00 to pay for...maintenance...

Raymond, unless I'm missing something here, you've got zero dollars laid out for "profit". Unless that's built in to those costs, why even bother doing it? Where's the return on your investment? Where's the return for your risk? Where's the return for your time?

It's a nice idea, but unless you're just doing it for fun, why?

[racer_tim]

Raymond, In most of the "arrive and drive's" that I've done (2 ea as a rentor) the renter is responsible for the entry fee.

Send me an e-mail at racer_tim at yahoo dot com and I'll send you a rental agreement that I got from a local race shop, that rents out 2-3 cars per weekend here in San Francisco Region. BTW, we have 11 Regionals alone in SFR in 2005.



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[RSTPerformance]

The profit for us at those rates would be:

a) Used tires (one weekend on them) that we can race on "if" the renter doesn't flatspot them and ruin them.

B) $100-$150 towards one of us entering a second car ourselves and racing "if" the first car does not incure any mechanical problems (and we will be confident that it doesn't).

So basically one uf us will be able to race for almoast free if the other car is rented out. Not much profit at all and yes a risk, however I wouldn't want to price it so hi that knobody would be interested. I agree that it is a great deal ($1,000) for what the renter is getting, but I also realise it is ITB and while I think that is the best class to race in with a great veriety of cars/talent most people seem to rather run ITS (more power) or spec miata (more competition). After the base price of the car I don't think that it costs much more to run a spec miata up front or an ITS car... So I would guess that spec Miatas and ITS cars are renting for around the same price or possibly a little higher...

hummm????

Raymond

[joeg]

Greg is correct...Why would you do this?

I have let people use cars for free, but I "sold" them to them for a buck (with an option to buy back for a buck)and these were freinds who I knew were good for broken parts, etc. and updated belts and nets at theior own cost.

If you are doing this for money, your suggested pricing is far too cheap and there are questions about income taxes, sales taxes, business license and form, etc.

Also, just putting a car on the track damages it (paint chips, cracked windshields) which your renter should be responsible for--even if he/ she may be the most gentle, clean and considerate driver out there.

Cheers.

[racer-025]

After renting out my own cars over the years, I have determined that it just isn't worth it, period!

The BIG issue that will eventually come up, is damage liability. Say your renter misses a shift and the engine hits 12,000rpm! He's going to say that everything was fine and the engine just blew up. You can install a tell-tale tach, but he's going to reset it prior to coming in. If your renter goes off track and kisses the wall, he's going to say that something broke on the car first causing the accident, thus it wasn't his fault and he wont pay for that.

I HIGHLY recommend that you don't rent your car. But if you decide to do it, get at least $1500 and only rent to a seasoned racer and not a newbie. Make him pay the entry. Renting is a tough game...

[gran racing]

Hmmm. This is a tough one. And it isn’t because I would have a problem seeing one of your renters in my rear view mirror. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/biggrin.gif Just teasing.

One thing that would scare me a bit is the liability aspect of things. Yes I know. You will have your contract worded properly so you can recover any expenses you incur by a driver damaging your car, but what about the other side? Last year at the NARRC on lap two I went into turn one with almost no brakes about 100 mph. Eeek! Fortunately I didn’t completely panic and used the engine to slow the car down. And yes, even Toyos can be flat spotted. Later I found out that the hub cracked. I look back at that and think I was very fortunate. But what happens if things worked out differently, as could of very easily happened. Instead the renter hits the wall, totals the car, and worse get injured. I know you said that if the car was crashed (no matter whose fault) the renter would have to pay to fix it, but would that really hold up in this instance? Worse yet, could you get sued for the injuries (oh, my neck!) that happened to the renter? It was not driver error; it was due to a problem with the car. So would it then lie upon you the rentor? How much could you be held liable for? That said, I would highly recommend you get a legal contract to protect yourself! Talk with the Flat Out boys – they mentioned that they have a renter contract that they would sell to others. Hopefully that will take care of this issue.

Going along with other people’s comments about the risk versus reward. Why not initially feel the waters out at a higher price then if necessary lower it. You might be surprised at what people will pay to do an arrive and drive. Heck, I’m surprised every time I go to the track and see the set-ups people have. The other question is how many times do you want to rent them? Are you looking to make a business out of it? If you’re primarily thinking of this as a one and a while thing, who cares if the demand isn’t that high? So you only get 3 people this year. Maybe that’s what you want anyways. eBay might be an interesting way to auction an arrive and drive event? Or maybe not but that’s a different discussion. Price it high enough for it to truly be worthwhile. It will be easier to lower the price then raise it.

Unfortunately you would be using the cars you intend to race versus having a dedicated rental car like most others. When booking your rental days, I would make sure that you allow enough time in between them and your road trips. It would be really frustrating to have some damage your car and necessitate you fixing it, then cause you to miss your own racing events just for a few bucks.

Best of luck what every you guys decide to do!


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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[dyoungre]

Good business or not, I appreciate your desire to rent your car; I would not have made it through driver's school had I not been able to rent a car, at the time.

I agree, you are pricing yourself low - even if you want to keep it low, I'd start around 1200, maybe go up to 1500 for a double regional.

The way my rentee took care of the damage liability: He required a $3000 deposit check, that was returned to me at the end of the weekend. Good motivation for me to keep the car clean, but I was still willing to do it.

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Dave Youngren
NER ITA RX7 #61

[racer-025]

Just for comparison, I rent out a fully prepared CRX for the Targa Newfoundland Rally for $9000.00. Expenses are at least half of that. If anyone would like a copy of my waiver & liability form shoot me an email offline.

Bruce McNutt
www.geocities.com/mcnuttracing/ (http://www.geocities.com/mcnuttracing/)

mcnuttracing at auracom dot com

[almracing]

I keep hearing advice I got years ago.. "The fastest way to lose wealth is to be sued".

You hope it never happens but even if a renter loses his/her lawsuit, you will still have plenty of attorney fees.

I am sure there are ways to get some protection using a corporation, but anyone can sue for anything.

You have to ask yourself, is it worth the potential liability?

Anthony R.
ITA #86 NER

[Daryl DeArman]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
...I also realise it is ITB and while I think that is the best class to race in with a great veriety of cars/talent most people seem to rather run ITS (more power) or spec miata (more competition)...

I think you have touched on something. Too cheap and it is not worth your time/risk. Too expensive and the renter has too many other options that may be more appealing to him/her for whatever reasons.

I have "rented" rides on 5 occassions. One was an equal seat time in an enduro where I was responsible for only my entry fee. One was a 2 class/same car effort where I agreed to split fuel and tire costs and pay both entries. The other three occassions were a barter for services; set-up information and track support.

In all instances I felt like I was getting a steal, thinking the owners were crazy. Apparently the car owners also felt that they were getting something of equal/greater value in trade. So whatever works for both parties.

If I were you I would offer trackside support (such as arrive and drive their own car) to offset your racing costs. You could be very reasonable and make the same kind of profit as your rental proposal would likely see, with minimized risk. Sure there are plenty of people willing to offer assistance here and there for free...but good set-up advice, good driver coaching and tapping into your experiance and success is very valuable to the right people. Some people just want to show up and drive...don't want to learn what toe is, or how to read a spark plug or even read a torque wrench. They don't even have to get dirty...they can strut around the paddock with their arm candy pretending like they are the greatest, while paying for a chunk of your racing.

[Knestis]

I'll chime in here that my basic math for determining rental prices is that depreciation, consummables, and other expenses that vary with track time cost about $300 per hour of track time.

To that, I add a portion of the entry fee but understand that this assumes we are talking about an additional driver in an enduro situation where I am also driving. I'm offsetting some of my investment and weekend expenses by sharing the car, while getting to have my own fun, too.

When I used to rent cars out to generate revenues, it could cost $1200 for a regional event in a Showroom Stock car. And that was 20 years ago.

I also listen to the little voice in my head - Is this guy a loon? - and lean heavily on firsthand experience or trusted references re: renters' attitudes and experience levels. I rent to people I trust and don't require a deposit.

I also use a "letter of agreement" to clarify any and all issues/questions that we can think of, to avoid misconceptions and get things out in the open beforehand. Finally, this year we are going to have the car wired with a DL-1 to keep an eye on abuse, off-track excursions, etc...

K

EDIT - The height of silliness was at Portland one year, when we had one renter hit another renter, diving inside him right in front of where we were watching in the stands. They were - until that moment - best buddies planning on forming a team. They each paid for the damage to the car that they had rented but the fight over whose fault it was, and who owed whom money for it, pretty much did in the friendship.

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited March 08, 2005).]