Seeking the opinion of the A-Team…

[gsbaker]

We want to run something by the readers of IT.com and get your ideas. We find ourselves faced with an interesting situation, and an opportunity to turn a potentially ugly moment into a net gain for everyone.


Part I:

Isaac users are crashing hard, delighted that the product kept them out of the hospital (or worse) and then sending their systems back for evaluation, asking if they can be used again. Here is an example...

"Enclosed are my Isaac’s cylinders for your review. I was involved in a hard frontal crash at [the track] during the [Club] race weekend. Another car crashed in front of me and I had no choice but to go off in the middle of [the turn] or hit the car directly in the driver’s side door. I hit the inside jersey barrier after [the turn] at about 70 mph (an estimate) about 20 degrees off center of the left (drivers side). The car is destroyed.

I spoke with someone at length regarding my experience which resulted in only some minor soreness in the muscles of my neck and shoulders. I am recommending your devices to anyone who asks.

As we discussed, please take a look at the devices to assure that they are functional and not deformed..."

(This poor guy had just sold the car for major five figures and decided to take it out for one last spin.)

This has been happening a lot lately. Another Isaac user was airlifted to the hospital (no head or neck injuries) and another let us know that, after a major lateral blast, he was building a replacement, duplicate car and after several months had moved 17 parts from the old car to the new one. Both of these guys wanted to know if their Isaac systems could be used again.

Hold that thought...


Part II:

The vast majority of our customers are amateur racers, as it the case with all H&N restraint manufacturers. As such, cars are not equipped with crash data recorders or other expensive technologies to document their shunts, so we have no idea what happened when they demolish everything but themselves. However, most have good recollections of the event, every now and then a camera shows up, and once in a great while someone has a data acquisition system such as a DL-1 or CDS which proves to be very valuable.

Hold that thought…


Where we are on Part I:

The only way we can determine whether a "used" Isaac system can be reused is by spending more for the analysis that it costs to build a new one. It is just not practical. Our policy is that the product must be replaced in the event of severe use. (Hey, it’s cheaper than a funeral.)


Where we are on Part II:

The best manner in which to evaluate a product and improve it is to determine how it functions in an extreme environment. In our crash test samples we have Isaac systems that have experienced half-ton loads in the blink of an eye, but they appear identical to unused systems. However, there is no real data from the field--beyond anecdotal things like, "Hey ya’ll, watch this!" In short, we know the product works very well, but it has been difficult to build a database of practical applications.

If someone returns an Isaac system for evaluation there is not a snowball’s chance on a Florida beach in August that we can return it without having spent a small fortune on analysis. Knowing that we can’t just keep it and say, "Sorry dude, you gotta buy a new one," without being labeled opportunistic, selfish, capitalist ba$stards, some kind of consideration to the owner is called for.

So here’s the idea:

If a customer blows up everything but themselves and sends their Isaac back for evaluation, they receive a 50% discount on a new system if they provide us with a full report of the crash incident. If they do that plus provide either video or CDR data, they receive a 75% discount. If they provide a report and provide both video and CDR data, they receive a 100% discount.

We get enhanced crash information, the driver gets a discount on a replacement Isaac system, and severely "used" Isaac systems are kept in a safe place--our vault.

Comments?

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[This message has been edited by gsbaker (edited March 04, 2005).]

[Knestis]

Sounds like a really appropriate solution.

Kirk

(who really hopes he never needs to return his Isaac but, if he has to, will have saved a third of what his DL-1 cost)

[tderonne]

How about a little benchmarking?

"I just smashed your helmet, please tell me if it's any good"

"Your harnesses just saved my butt..."

"Your suit looks pretty burned but..."

"These tires are good except this flat spot..."

In other words, I don't expect any of my other safety gear to be replaced after I use it. Just like my tires.

Are there any examples of other folks that'll offer such a discount?

Not saying it's a bad idea, quite the opposite. It would certainly encourage replacement when there's even the slightest chance parts were damaged.

[lateapex911]

Yes, entirely reasonable.

Some other precedents come to mind, the most famous being the hidden helmet damage. (Most helmet manufacturers have a disclaimer/warning that, in the event of a significan impact that the helmet be returned/replaced/inspected. Which is pretty vague...what do they do in such an instance?

I do remember you requesting the return of the product in the event of an impact for evaluation. What was the plan at that time?

I think it's a good policy, and one that you should make public and part of your purchase agreement.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Geo]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Some other precedents come to mind, the most famous being the hidden helmet damage. (Most helmet manufacturers have a disclaimer/warning that, in the event of a significan impact that the helmet be returned/replaced/inspected. Which is pretty vague...what do they do in such an instance?</font>[/b]

X-ray it for one.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Knestis]

Keep it, for another. At least, that used to be common practice.

K

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by tderonne:
Are there any examples of other folks that'll offer such a discount?

Not to our knowledge.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...It would certainly encourage replacement when there's even the slightest chance parts were damaged.</font>

Agreed, but that's where the problem lies. You can't tell by just looking at the components. And testing the damper doesn't tell you if the structural components are undamaged. If we had crash data we could tell if the product may have been overloaded, but we don't.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[backformore]

That sounds like a great policy. (If anything I'd say it is too generous). It not only demonstrates your interest in improving your product and treating your customers VERY fairly, it shows a real interest in their safety since it reduces some of the temptation to "use it since it looks OK" after an impact.

I say, Kudos you you!

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
I do remember you requesting the return of the product in the event of an impact for evaluation. What was the plan at that time?

To learn as much as possible. Not knowing the status of the system we could not ethically let the customer use it, so we sent back a demo that matched the original configuration. No one ever knew. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/biggrin.gif

That's what has to change.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[edit: spelling is good.]

[This message has been edited by gsbaker (edited March 04, 2005).]

[erlrich]

Originally posted by gsbaker:

Comments?


First, as a racer... the phrase "above and beyond" comes to mind. I don't know what more you could possibly expect from an equipment manufacturer. Careful Gregg, this could make you very unpopular with the competition.

But, as an accountant... ARE YOU NUTS?!?!?! Do you know what this is going to do to your bottom line?

Earl

[MadFrog]

actually Earl, since they used to send back a demo unit to the customer at no cost, I'd say that it would actually help their bottom line. They used to be REALLY NUTS! Now, they are only NUTS!

awesome deal from Greg, again.

:thumbup:

[philstireservice]

I think in reference to the accounting end of it and the "are you nuts" comment, is the idea that it works monetarily like the insurance industry does. It's a numbers game. Hopefully not everyone that buys an Isaac System will ever have to return it for a safety check and in turn, offering up the solution that Gregg has, will enhance the bottom line by more systems being sold.

Good job Gregg !!!

Phil, who owns and wears his Issac System..

------------------
Phil Phillips
2004 Honda Challenge H3
NASA ECHC CHAMPION

www.philstireservice.com

[lateapex911]

Above and beyond the "nuts" comments, (and those, like me, who have spent a little time with Gregg can attest to his "nuts" condition....), what impresses me here is the unusual look inside a company and it's thought proccess.

Time and again with Isaac, I come away impressed by the concepts being explored, but mostly I am struck by the integrity being displayed.

Unusual insight to us, refreshing, and rare.

(Gregg, I think you have a great concept, but need to put some specifics in the 'contractlanguage' to insure the data you desire is meaningful.)

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[JIgou]

OK, someone help me with the approach I need when I take this to team management....

"Honey, here's the deal....if I have a big crash right now with my Isaac on, I'll have to pay 25% of retail cost to get it replaced. BUT, if I add this $2500 data system, I can get it replaced for FREE!"


Gregg, does video from the roof of the car count, or are you looking for in-car where you can see the driver flailing about?

Jarrod

[dickita15]

Ok let me be the disenting voice.

Driver: Here I crashed with your device on, can you tell me if it is still usable.

Vendor: I have no idea and it would cost too much to find out, buy a new one.

I understand you situation with regard to testing the part but i do not care from the selfish point of view of the customer. It is biased against me. Maybe if there was a "inspect and refurbish" price where a driver could if he crashed send you his old unit and $x to have the unit inspected and suspect parts replaced. my guess is that if that process was run close to break even the cost would be pretty fair.
dick

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by backformore:
...it reduces some of the temptation to "use it since it looks OK" after an impact.

That's what started this whole thing.

Our server was picking up references from a thread on a board we had not heard of. It was your typical "What do you guys use?" thread. Someone posted something like, "I like the Isaac. I crashed mine twice last year and can't wait to get back in the car." I nearly had a coronary.

We contacted this gentleman and strongly urged him to replace his system. He admitted that he should, but said he was saving money for the new car.

Of course, we knew something like this would eventually happen, but reality can be more sobering than expectation.

Also, we're not being totally altruistic. If someone keeps banging on his Isaac and eventually bangs on it one last time inducing a BSF, what will happen? Will the family send us the retail price for every time he didn't die? No, the family will send a lawyer. (I am reminded of the saying, "No good deed goes unpunished.")

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by erlrich:
...Careful Gregg, this could make you very unpopular with the competition.

That's our objective.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">... ARE YOU NUTS?!?!?!</font>

Well yeah, there is that.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Do you know what this is going to do to your bottom line?Earl</font>

I hear ya, but Phil has touched on something. More later.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by MadFrog:
actually Earl, since they used to send back a demo unit to the customer at no cost, I'd say that it would actually help their bottom line. They used to be REALLY NUTS! Now, they are only NUTS!

Thank you. The therapy and medication seem to be taking effect. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by philstireservice:
...It's a numbers game. Hopefully not everyone that buys an Isaac System will ever have to return it for a safety check and in turn, offering up the solution that Gregg has, will enhance the bottom line by more systems being sold.

Ah, an interesting perspective, and it ties into the point dickita15 made: "...if that process was run close to break even the cost would be pretty fair."

If we can enhance the value of the product for the customer and not lose money, we should sell more product. If it means that we may engage in some activity sometime later at no cost to us, where's the loss?

And in the extreme case of giving away product, it is done only when we have hard evidence of a crash, and we will definitely use that for marketing. Look at our Racers' Comments page sometime. I know for a fact that every reference there has sold product. Every one. How much more effective would such testimonials be with video and/or data?

In time, of course, every car will have video and CDRs so we reserve the right to change policy, but the combination is rare in amateur ranks today.

Keep in mind that all manufacturers presently have a very rigid policy: You abuse it, tough. You gotta buy a new one. In fact, that will continue to be our policy, but what we are considering is offering huge discounts if you just tell us what happened.

Thanks for being a user, Phil!

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
...and those, like me, who have spent a little time with Gregg can attest to his "nuts" condition...

But I don't look nuts, do I:

http://www.isaacdirect.com/images/Humor/Ugly101.jpg ?



------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by JIgou:
OK, someone help me with the approach I need when I take this to team management....

"Honey, here's the deal....if I have a big crash right now with my Isaac on, I'll have to pay 25% of retail cost to get it replaced. BUT, if I add this $2500 data system, I can get it replaced for FREE!"

Sounds good to me Jarrod. Go for it!


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Gregg, does video from the roof of the car count, or are you looking for in-car where you can see the driver flailing about?</font>

Oooh. Good point. We'll have to think about that. Both are valuable.

"Flailing about"? We're talking crashes here Jarrod, not driving technique. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by dickita15:
...if that process was run close to break even the cost would be pretty fair.
dick

Dick,

If you provide enough information, we'll do it at a loss.



------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[dickita15]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
Keep in mind that all manufacturers presently have a very rigid policy: You abuse it, tough. You gotta buy a new one.


Abuse in this case being "use for intended purpose" and again you can not tell me when it is no longer safe to use.
dick

[planet6racing]

I don't think it's a matter of him telling you that it is no longer safe to use. That can be done. However, the expense to do so outweighs the cost to just buy a new one. With NDE testing, that is not uncommon.

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[Wreckerboy]

"Honey, here's the deal....if I have a big crash right now with my Isaac on, I'll have to pay 25% of retail cost to get it replaced. BUT, if I add this $2500 data system, I can get it replaced for FREE!"

Any discount for replacement after the wife smacks you upside the head (ISAAC device on, of course)?

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by dickita15:
Abuse in this case being "use for intended purpose" and again you can not tell me when it is no longer safe to use.
dick

No manufacturer can tell you when it is safe to use unless they do one of two things:

1) Look at the force of the impact. If you hit with an impact of 100Gs or greater you have probably cracked something. (BTW, this is exactly the impact limit for a HANS device, i.e. it is recommended that a HANS device be retired if it sees impacts of 100Gs+.) In this case you guys can't tell us the loads.

2) Take everything apart. Perform a dimensional check. Send everything out for magnafluxing. If it's bad, throw it away; if it's good reassemble it. In this case it's too much trouble/money/hassle.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Wreckerboy:
...Any discount for replacement after the wife smacks you upside the head (ISAAC device on, of course)?

There are limits. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[ShelbyRacer]

Originally posted by erlrich:
ARE YOU NUTS?!?!?! Do you know what this is going to do to your bottom line?


Earl,
You do realize he make SAFETY stuff for RACE CAR DRIVERS, right? I think nuts is not only a foregone conclusion, it's a requirement... http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

Oh, and Jake-

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Above and beyond the \"nuts\" comments, (and those, like me, who have spent a little time with Gregg can attest to his \"nuts\" condition....), </font>

I don't want to tell you the first thought I had when I read that phrase... but I still don't want to know the condition of his nuts... http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/redface.gif



------------------
Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."

[924Guy]

LOL... taking another perspective, maybe you should perhaps make it clear in no uncertain terms when purchasing the ISAAC that it's not intended to be reusable (common sense, but hey, we're racers here)... and then, in return for replacing the ISAAC after crashing, perhaps it's even more appropriate for you to give discounts to some driving school, given the number of drivers crashing??? http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

More seriously, since I do have video (which sometimes even works, though never when it counts) and now data as well - what range are we talking here for g-logging? IIRC the range of my g-sensors is no more than +/-20g. Would this even be useful for serious impacts?

------------------
Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITB/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com

[gsbaker]

Vaughan,

The recorders we run across have typically maxed out at 5-10Gs. These get pegged easily so the initial reaction to your question would be no, the CDRs would be of little value--although 20Gs is interesting because you are approaching the injury level. However, we get some good feedback from drivers who have small jolts and report that they can feel the damper reaction.

Velocity data is valuable.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[edit: feel, not feed.]

[This message has been edited by gsbaker (edited March 05, 2005).]

[dyoungre]

Gregg,
I am not completely familiar with the unit, but when people talk about 'fatigue', you and I know that the loads that effect fatigue have a cycle count of 1. I would hope that most of the static parts in the system have a pretty high safety factor - so if there is any plastic deformation, replace that component; if there isn't, I can't imagine there are any reasons the parts can't be reused.
Based on that argument, I would offer 'inspect and refurbish' - which means new dampers, and inspection of all static parts. Cracks should not be an issue after 1 cycle. If they were, then I'd be concerned with your material choice !!!

------------------
Dave Youngren
NER ITA RX7 #61

[Bryan Watts]

Originally posted by dyoungre:
Based on that argument, I would offer 'inspect and refurbish' - which means new dampers, and inspection of all static parts. Cracks should not be an issue after 1 cycle. If they were, then I'd be concerned with your material choice !!!

Seems like too much risk given the current state of our legal system. Hell, just making these devices seems like too much risk to me.