SFI Testing of head and neck systems

[Jay Wright]

I offer a low cost device that has been tested and SCCA Pro approved. (The Wright Device) Now thta SFI has a testing procedureonly the HANS has been tested (restrictions in procedure). My device will pass but I don't have the money for the testing ($7500) and am looking for a sponser so it can be tested. I feel a low cost ($150) alternative is in the best interest of motorsports. Any help finding a funding source would be appreciated.
The way the spec is written only Delphi can do the testing. My early testing was done at Wayne State Bioengineering Center. Sled speed 35 mph. SFI sled speed requirement is 43.5 mph with Delphi named specifically to do the test. Dr. Hubbard helped write the spec and he did a good job excluding most all other devices on the market. Mine meets the requirements but the cost of testing is three times my total sales last year not including manufacturing costs of the device. I am not concerned with NASCAR or F!, they can afford HANS. But next year NASA will require a device that is SFI certified. These are low bucks racers and I think they should have a low cost alternative instead of giving HANS a monopoly in the motorsports world.


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Jay Wright P.E.

[Greg Amy]

I use the Wright Device and I am very satisfied with it.

http://www.over40racing.com

[924Guy]

Doncha just love politics.

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Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITB/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by 924Guy:
Doncha just love politics.

Now Vaughan, just because the guy who wrote the spec (according to Jay) holds the patent on the device that passed the spec that uses the lab that was established by the organization that subsidized the testing is no reason to get cynical. I'm sure it's just the natural order of things and is all in the interest of safety.

And, even though internal volume estimates of 8,000 units this year at an average price of $1,000 ea. and a variable cost of less than $100 will spin off a cool $7.2mil of contribution margin, it's not about the money.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

Hey Jay,

That SFI test is for sissies. It's only 68Gs. What do you say we take our designs to that new 100G sled in Detroit and really smack the snot out of them?

Tell you what. If we get a decent discount on incremental hits, we'll cover half the cost of testing your device on the 100G sled.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[Jay Wright]

Call me. 281 483 5583 work

[Tim]

I just ordered a Wright Device, thanks Jay. I will also make a contribution to the fund raising effort for testing as I believe in what you are doing. Maybe some others will contribute, a little bit from a bunch of us can add up. How about raffling one or two of them off?

thanks
tim

[Geo]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
Now Vaughan, just because the guy who wrote the spec (according to Jay) holds the patent on the device that passed the spec that uses the lab that was established by the organization that subsidized the testing is no reason to get cynical. I'm sure it's just the natural order of things and is all in the interest of safety.

And, even though internal volume estimates of 8,000 units this year at an average price of $1,000 ea. and a variable cost of less than $100 will spin off a cool $7.2mil of contribution margin, it's not about the money.



Oh, now Gregg, as an accountant (with a long background in cost accounting) I'll bet those numbers are pretty deceiving. First of all, I doubt the variable cost is $100. Materials maybe. Labor is another story. Also, I'll bet your business is heavily burdened with fixed and semi-variable costs. As a small businessman myself (sideline business) I know only too well how people can look at variable direct costs and think what a rip-off someone someone is perpetuating on their customers and that is often far from the truth.

OTOH, I'm your number one cheerleader (now there's a disturbing image) of rallying against SFI!


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[lateapex911]

...... just because the guy who wrote the spec (according to Jay) holds the patent on the device that passed the spec that uses the lab that was established by the organization that subsidized the testing is no reason to get cynical. .....
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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

On one hand, the above statement may be a bit of an oversimplification...on the other.....it might be spot on.

Either way, it stinks.

The way this is shaking out is a classic example of free trade run amuk.

There will be a huge outcry IF the HANS becomes the only approved device.

I for one would get on the phone and call all the way up the ladder, and I imagine I would sell the car as well if there was no retraction.... The day a lawyer tells me what an engineer should be telling me is the day the club has lost control of it's destiny....

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited February 25, 2005).]

[planet6racing]

Apparently I posted this in the midst of the server changeover, so I'll post it again.

I am willing to set up a Paypal account where we can all make small donations to the cause to get Jay's device SFI approved. We can give Jay one big check in addition to Gregg's generous offer and, hopefully, cover the necessary costs.

What do you say? I'll post a running tally here in this message if you'd all like.



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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[Jay Wright]

I think that is a good idea. Since i already have a contribution I will transfer the funds to the account when you get it set up so I don't mix funds with business funds. Everything helps. Thanks.

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Geo:
...First of all, I doubt the variable cost is $100.

Yeah, it's probably lower. (I'm talking materials and labor w/o allocations, i.e. what an economist would call marginal cost.)

I'd like to hear Planet 6's take on this. Hey Bill, you out there?


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I know only too well how people can look at variable direct costs and think what a rip-off someone is perpetuating on their customers and that is often far from the truth.</font>

Agreed, wholeheartedly. Don't ask about medical implants.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">OTOH, I'm your number one cheerleader (now there's a disturbing image) of rallying against SFI!</font>

Is this the disturbing image you were referring to?

http://www.brcac.com/photos/2002/Nitrous%2...heerleaders.jpg (http://www.brcac.com/photos/2002/Nitrous%20Cheerleaders.jpg)

Is that you on the right?

http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[Matt Rowe]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
Is this the disturbing image you were referring to?



Oh, Gregg, that picture was completely uncalled for. Especially since I didn't have a H&N device to protect me from whiplash as I tried to shake that image loose from my mind. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

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~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[planet6racing]

Yeah, it's probably lower. (I'm talking materials and labor w/o allocations, i.e. what an economist would call marginal cost.)

I'd like to hear Planet 6's take on this. Hey Bill, you out there?


I know nothing! NOTHING!! http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by planet6racing:
I know nothing! NOTHING!! http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif



Yeah, right. Like we believe that, you sneeky materials expert you.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[MadFrog]

here is my question:
- Jay wants his device SFI tested/approved (68g sled)
- Gregg wants to go on the big mama 100g sled and will cover half the cost of that.

will the 100g sled test results be accepted by the SFI foundation? I was under the impression that they ran their own tests...

[gsbaker]

MadFrog,

Yeah, that's another issue. SFI references the Delphi sled at a nominal 68Gs--it has no in-house crash sled. You could petition for an equivalent sled elsewhere, but the seat configuration is rather precise and may have to be rebuilt for another sled.

Also, before our offer is misinterpreted let's review the economics of sled testing. Most well-equipped labs seem to charge between $3K and $4K per "hit" for this type of testing. But being at the lab means you are testing something new, so you have also the costs of design time, possibly some contracted computer simulations, the production of several prototypes, travel, etc. We figure the answer to the question, "I wonder if this will work?" will run $8K-$12K, assuming you hit it just once and you're not testing anything too exotic.

This is for a private development effort. If you want to, say, get your HANS adapted to F1, DaimlerChrysler picks up the tab of $0.75 mil.

However, (to get back on topic) you can typically arrange quantity discounts, since once the sled is set up there is not much expense to the lab to back it up and hit it again. We did this with Jay's device at Wayne State and the incremental for that test was about $2K.

Assuming the same cost structure on the 100G sled, our offer of 1/2 the incremental cost amounts to $1K. I have since learned from Jay that the Delphi lab charges a flat $2,500 per test, and the Spec calls for three tests. So, half of a test is $1,250. Close enough.

So here is what we will do: We will donate $1,250 cash to Jay's SFI efforts, and we will contribute one Isaac Intermediate system ($895 value) to be raffled off with all proceeds contributed to Jay's test fund.

Hey Bill, can you run a raffle with Paypal?

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[lateapex911]

So, let me get this straight...

A guy who runs a business selling H&NRs is offering to pay for some of the cost for another guy (his competition) to test HIS H&NR system?

Interesting...

(cool)

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Geo]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
Yeah, it's probably lower. (I'm talking materials and labor w/o allocations, i.e. what an economist would call marginal cost.)

I was talking about the same thing. Direct variable cost. I would wager my next paycheck that it costs considerably more than $100 of direct variable cost. Now, marginal cost is not quite the same thing because it does not account for the cost of setting up the operations (a very real cost). But, none the less, I would even wager that marginal cost is well over $100. Sure I'm not a materials engineer, but I have a long history in manufacturing cost accounting and I have significant experience in this subject.

First of all, not only do you have to figure in the prepreg CF and FG, but I'd wager there is a form of some sort that the FG and CF is laid up over. It only makes sense that this would be molded or CNC machined since laying up that much FG and CF would be time consuming and thus expensive. Then there is the fact all that prepreg must be cut to size, most likely with some sort of automated cutting machine since it would still be cheaper than cutting it by hand. We haven't even gotten into all of the labor to produce a finished part.

Not a chance this thing has less than $100 in marginal cost. I'd be surprised if it's less than $200, but it might be a bit below that. All before overhead allocation including amortization of development costs and patent costs, depreciation of equipment, etc.

Let's not be too misleading here. That would be like saying an Isaac is a little aluminum, some dashpots and a few bolts. We both know that's not true either.



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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
So, let me get this straight...

A guy who runs a business selling H&NRs is offering to pay for some of the cost for another guy (his competition) to test HIS H&NR system?

Interesting...

(cool)



And he's raffling off one of his own products to pay for even more.

Yes, very cool.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Geo:
...Now, marginal cost is not quite the same thing because it does not account for the cost of setting up the operations (a very real cost). But, none the less, I would even wager that marginal cost is well over $100. Sure I'm not a materials engineer, but I have a long history in manufacturing cost accounting and I have significant experience in this subject.

I know you are a very skilled accountant George, so I will defer to you on the definitions. I took some accounting in grad school but made a point of staying away from all that cost stuff. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

My perspective is more from that of managerial accounting as opposed to financial accounting, so I'm keeping it pretty simple. Considering a BE analysis, and backing out the overhead allocated to direct labor, the incremental cash needed to make a marginal unit will be materials, labor (w/o said allocations) and incidentals such as power to run machinery and perishable tooling.

I'm throwing out all fixed everything, including non-perishable tooling.

Let's say you're right at $200. The contribution margin drops from $7.2mil to $6.4mil.

I know! We should hammer out the details of this analysis over a couple brewskies at Bill's RV during the '05 ARRC.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Let's not be too misleading here. That would be like saying an Isaac is a little aluminum, some dashpots and a few bolts. We both know that's not true either.</font>

Of course not. We had to import that special Kryptonite/Pixie-dust alloy from the planet Zorgon. Shipping was a killer.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[This message has been edited by gsbaker (edited February 28, 2005).]

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
So, let me get this straight...offering to pay for some of the cost for another guy...to test HIS H&NR system?

Interesting...

(cool)



We think the customer should have a choice.
Weird concept, eh?

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[planet6racing]

George:

You're kind of right, but there are ways to get stuff in the size you need with minimal cutting. With most composite processes, the pressures are relatively small so a minimum of tooling is necessary.

This will all become more clear in the next months...

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[Geo]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
Of course not. We had to import that special Kryptonite/Pixie-dust alloy from the planet Zorgon. Shipping was a killer.




NEVER under-estimate the engineering that goes on at Isaac! http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

FWIW, I'm looking at it from the same perspective. One thing I do think is misleading is using this approach. Contribution margin doesn't reflect the cost of bringing a product to market. It's a tool to consider additional marginal sales.

You're on for discussions over beer. They are always the best. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

[Geo]

Originally posted by planet6racing:
George:

You're kind of right, but there are ways to get stuff in the size you need with minimal cutting. With most composite processes, the pressures are relatively small so a minimum of tooling is necessary.

This will all become more clear in the next months...



I understand Bill. But I think costs to actually produce a produce are under-estimated by most people. My concern is that people think businesses are ripping them off because of a perceived cost (and that goes for H-D, NISsport, Isaac, or any business).

I have wondered if the HANS is autoclaved. Probably not.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Geo:
...My concern is that people think businesses are ripping them off because of a perceived cost (and that goes for H-D, NISsport, Isaac, or any business).

I agree.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I have wondered if the HANS is autoclaved. Probably not.</font>

I'm guessing not.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[lateapex911]

I know I am late to the party, but George...looking at that picture...I don't remember you sporting braids when you were at the ARRCs...are those new??
(Fast grower)

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Geo]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
I know I am late to the party, but George...looking at that picture...I don't remember you sporting braids when you were at the ARRCs...are those new??
(Fast grower)



My legs didn't look that good either.

You must have had too many Shiner Bocks. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Geo:
My legs didn't look that good either.

You must have had too many Shiner Bocks. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

I think that young lady had too many Shiner Bocks, and there's no telling what he is on.

G