So who's going to the National Convention?

[ShelbyRacer]

Just wondering who, if anyone, is going to the SCCA National Convention next month. I'll be there, so if someone wants to meet up for a beer, or just to tell me off in person, let me know! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

I'll actually be one of the presenters, with the "new" Time Trials program in Club Racing (the New Programs slot on Friday afternoon), so feel free to come heckle me...

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Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."

[pgipson]

Our region will have at least a couple of people there. I might attend, depending on travel for work.

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Spec RX7 #11
Scottsdale AZ

[dickita15]

I should be there and would be willing to buy a round
dick patullo
ner ita rx7

[ShelbyRacer]

bump

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Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."

[Knestis]

When my wife heard that They were spending our money on hookers for the convention, she told me I couldn't go.

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by ShelbyRacer:


I'll actually be one of the presenters, with the "new" Time Trials program in Club Racing (the New Programs slot on Friday afternoon), so feel free to come heckle me...



Any preview of the program?

[ShelbyRacer]

Well, it's very much like the old Solo 1 program, but now includes some new options, like the PDC program (Performance Driving Clinic). Really, it's more of a presentation of the retooling and the refit that we did to better fit into the club racing program. I've just spent the last few months making our rulebook into something that feels a lot like the GCR.

One of the reasons why I wondered who was going is because I was hoping to talk to some of the ITAC guys (such as yourself and George), along with some former Solo 1 guys (like Greg) to see what you all thought of the new rules and such. Even if you're not at convention, the rules should be online shortly thereafter...



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Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."

[ShelbyRacer]

Originally posted by Knestis:
When my wife heard that They were spending our money on hookers for the convention, she told me I couldn't go.

K

K-

You have to tell her that it really would be a waste for you to have contributed and not get the benefit... That just wouldn't make financial sense http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif



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Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."

[lateapex911]

You know, I Do wish the SCCA had a better "bridge" (Read HPDE) between SoloII and road racing.

I know there are a lot of issues and reasons (manpower, for example) that keep us, as a club, from having a larger role.

As it is, I think we lose a lot of potential racers to marque clubs, like the PCA, where the "racing" is less stressful, (13/13 rule, and lots of previous track time) and there are 12 classes just for 911s! (OK, kidding on the last part, but you get the point)

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[ITANorm]

I'll be there from Wednesday afternoon until Sunday. I don't dare miss any of the happy hours!

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Norm - #55 ITA, '86 MR2. [email protected]
http://home.alltel.net/jberry/img107.jpg
Website: home.alltel.net/jberry (http://home.alltel.net/jberry)

[rjohnson999]

Additional dates will further stress the worker issues.

Sessions within a regional weekend will reduce already too short on track time for racing.

What's the solution?


Originally posted by lateapex911:
You know, I Do wish the SCCA had a better "bridge" (Read HPDE) between SoloII and road racing.

I know there are a lot of issues and reasons (manpower, for example) that keep us, as a club, from having a larger role.

As it is, I think we lose a lot of potential racers to marque clubs, like the PCA, where the "racing" is less stressful, (13/13 rule, and lots of previous track time) and there are 12 classes just for 911s! (OK, kidding on the last part, but you get the point)

[dickita15]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
Additional dates will further stress the worker issues.

Sessions within a regional weekend will reduce already too short on track time for racing.

What's the solution?



I agree with jake that we need a more orderly progression without sending people off to other club and hoping they will come back. Topeka develops tools for regions to run programs. they do not mandate you use them. if the stress is to high than any region does not have to get involved.

one solo tradition that may help is people splitting there time between working and driving.

matt one of the main reasons i am going to KC is to see what you guys have come up with. this may be my next big project.
dick patullo
ner scca

[ITANorm]

Originally posted by dickita15:
one solo tradition that may help is people splitting there time between working and driving.

It may or may not be as practical in road racing, as you can well imagine. I have, however, tried for years to get satisfactory completion of mandatory work assignments (and not just F&C) part of the school / licensing curriculum.

[Geo]

While I agree that an SCCA DE series might be good to train new drivers, I would hope it not evolve like the PCA or BMWCCA programs. Some people take it entirely too seriously and create a big heirarchy as if the FIA issued DE superlicenses. PCA seems to be worse than BMWCCA.

Nothing prepares you for racing really except racing. DE can get you comfortable at speed in your car, but karting can do as much, and really, even more. Once you're comfortable in the car at speed I see zero reason not to do an SCCA school. Some folks from PCA seem to feel you have to pay some goofy dues to "graduate" to racing.

As for the worker problem, IMHO, every driver should have to volunteer one or two days per year to keep their license current. You wanna race? Learn to help make it happen. Don't want to miss a regional weekend, volunteer for a national or vice-versa.



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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[ShelbyRacer]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
Additional dates will further stress the worker issues.

Sessions within a regional weekend will reduce already too short on track time for racing.

What's the solution?



The solution is simple (yeah right).

Get a separate base of personnel for those events.

Many clubs in our area have a Solo 2 crowd, a hillclimb crowd, and a Club Racing crowd (and even a Rally crowd, but that's another story...).

We need to tap into these Marque Club guys, not only for entries, but for workers/organizers/officials too. You may need to provide some experienced hands to get things moving, but don't try to over manage the thing with Club Racing people, or that's who will be left working. If you get new people involved and let them take some ownership of the program, they'll find people to come work them. Trust me. I've seen it happen quite a few times.

Besides, the program will be in the Club Racing department, but not require Club Racing officials' licenses. The Time Trials licensing structure is separate, both for Officials and Drivers. We're basically porting the Solo 1 program over as the head end of this thing, so we're keeping the separate structure. The idea is to differentiate the programs to give individual identity, but hopefully not over-license everything.

Jake- the program will be a stepping stone setup. L1 events will be the PDC (called HPDE and Car Handling Events by other organizations). L2 will be Solo 2 classes, but on a track, with safety equipment upgrades for everything but Stock, ST, and SP (courses are slower or artificially slowed). L3 is our Solo 1 track events (full speed- more safety required). L4 is hillclimbs and other non-track events.

The whole program is a staircase, and each individual level is a smaller, integral step, allowing a smoother transition into Club Racing.

I agree with George that nothing can teach you to race other than racing. The goal of this program is to get people used to the rules and official structure, and teach them how to DRIVE. That way, when they go for their Club Racing license, they can use the two required schools to learn how to RACE. Not everyone needs this, but it will be available, and much more mainstream now.

How many of you out there have instructed/worked/officiated at a Club Racing Drivers School? Haven't you ever wished that there was some good way to get people acquainted with SCCA and track driving before showing up at the school? Now you'll have a clear program to work with if you so choose. As Dick said, we're trying to give you more tools to work with. Whether or not you use them is up to you.

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Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."

[This message has been edited by ShelbyRacer (edited January 03, 2005).]

[ShelbyRacer]

Originally posted by dickita15:


matt one of the main reasons i am going to KC is to see what you guys have come up with. this may be my next big project.
dick patullo
ner scca

Dick, I was going to email you privately, but I guess this board doesn't support that. I'll be more than happy to sit down and chat with you in detail about things out there, and even work with you guys to get something going if you'd like. Kathy has been a big help to me in working on things, so she probably has a pretty good feel for what we're doing already.

Honestly, it's not really much different than before. Same nice girl, but we bought her a new dress and some jewelry. Maybe it was with all the money from dues...

I'm looking forward to talking with you. I've enjoyed your contributions at the two NEDiv events I've been to, mostly because it seems we think in similar ways (scary, I know).



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Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Geo:
While I agree that an SCCA DE series might be good to train new drivers, I would hope it not evolve like the PCA or BMWCCA programs. Some people take it entirely too seriously and create a big heirarchy as if the FIA issued DE superlicenses. PCA seems to be worse than BMWCCA.

Nothing prepares you for racing really except racing. DE can get you comfortable at speed in your car, but karting can do as much, and really, even more. Once you're comfortable in the car at speed I see zero reason not to do an SCCA school. Some folks from PCA seem to feel you have to pay some goofy dues to "graduate" to racing.

As for the worker problem, IMHO, every driver should have to volunteer one or two days per year to keep their license current. You wanna race? Learn to help make it happen. Don't want to miss a regional weekend, volunteer for a national or vice-versa.


George...I agree about the marque clubs, they do get pretty intense in terms of the level of experience required. However they Do provide solid instruction in many cases. Stilll... having been to the some PCA events, I have been amazed at the level of boneheadedness demonstrated by people who had been to many events. So, to some degree, I think that it's a case of water, (or drivers) seeking their own level. On the other hand, some of the faster run groups have some real talent.

I am concerned that within SCCA there is no easy progression ...you need to go outside the system to get comfortable at higher speeds. It IS possible to just autocross one year and roadrace the next. The first few laps at the first drivers school must be real eye openers!! It's not for most, that's for sure!

Years ago, the marque clubs had no real racing series, so they performed more of a service by providing folks a place to learn at speed. Now, drivers just do lapping days, then go right into marque club racing. it's easy, and they are comfortable with their club and it's "system", as well as the social circle they have built up.

I agree that we need more work requirements as drivers ...I know I try to find ways to volunteer, and so do lots of guys I know, but lots more don't. We are in a critical way at NHIS here in the NE for corner workers.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited January 03, 2005).]

[lateapex911]

Matt- From the sounds of it, it seems like an ideal stepping stone. Years ago I did a few time trials at our local track, Lime Rock, and also at Bridgehampton. Man, was I sold!

The problem was, that the clubs organizing the events provided instructors to "check me out". Imagine if you can,as a total rookie who never turned a wheel on a track before, that I take a few tentative laps at Bridgehampton in a "follow along", then a few by myself before the instructor is available. Once in the car we do and out lap, then a flying lap, and he instructs me to pull in on that lap. UH oh! He unbuckles, and I ask, "So...what are the big things I should work on first?" (Hoping I wasn't getting booted for a total lack of talent!). He replies "None...you know what you're doing...looked good to me" and with that they moved me up two groups! Now, I know that even today a good instructor could tear me to shreds! So what was up with that???

Well, first, I just don't think he was that proficient as an instructor, and they were probably understaffed.

The point is that the infra structure and manpower needs to be there, because this interim level is both a training ground as well as an end unto itself. Proper instruction and enough of it will be key to the future of SCCA ametuer road racing.

I have instructed both at driving schools, and at SCCA run "driving clinics". The clinic was pretty successful from what I could see.

From our regions point of view though, putting on more events will run into two major issues.
First, where? The local tracks are largely rented out, and for big bucks. So any event needs to be a surefire money maker. The Solo1 community is in a constant struggle to find and keep event sites that are appropriate for Solo1 speeds, not to mention Solo2 speeds.

Second, is the manpower. As it is, we (NER and the other local regions) staff lots of events, both Regional and National, as well as a number of Pro events (Speed World Challenge/NASCAR and ALMS) and the toll it takes on the worker base is tough. (The pro events we do are at the request of the local track and it's a complicated relationship). On top of that, the marque clubs, and other event organizers, tap into the SCCA worker base and pay them for their time. So we actually have competition in keeping our own trained workers!

IF we can find alternate staff, or man the corners with drivers who aren't running, or on deck, we could have a winner on our hands.

I think that it's a really important issue, and we do need a solution. But I don't think it will be an easy one.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited January 03, 2005).]

[Marcus Miller]

Originally posted by Geo:
Nothing prepares you for racing really except racing. DE can get you comfortable at speed in your car, but karting can do as much, and really, even more. Once you're comfortable in the car at speed I see zero reason not to do an SCCA school.


Agreed completely! I spent 6 weekends doing N*S* HPE and sorting out the race car, then went through the SCCA school. I wouldn't have traded that track time on those weekends for anything. Especially having been able to run my car, so I knew what it was like 30 minutes into a session when the brakes were soft, tires greasy, etc.

Marcus

[apexingsupra]

Actually SCCA now does have that "bridge", the HPCCC (High Performance Car Control Clinics). I don't care for the title but it is Driver's Education program that has been in existence for the last two years and my region, Alabama, has been putting on HPCCCs the last two years. The program needs to be tweaked some and I have put my two cents in on that and thankfully some changes have been made. It needs to run in a event chair friendly and entrant friendly format and under rules similar to PCA and BMWCCA which have been doing this for a long time without major issues. It needs to be promoted more heavily and I have discussed this with National more than once. They seem to be listening in that next to Solo 2, HPCCCs should be the next biggest participant level in SCCA activities which I think will only improve the club racing scene. I think NASA's idea of running HPDEs and races on the same weekend is a pretty good idea. The DE folks get to mingle with the racers and I bet more bit off on the racing after watching it. For what it is worth the Alabama region is combining Solo 2 and HPCCC in a two day format at TGPR twice this year. So that will whet the appetite of Solo 2 people to try DEs. I think it is a good thing.

Oh yeah. I will be at National Convention too.

Barry H.
Al. Reg. RE.

Originally posted by lateapex911:
You know, I Do wish the SCCA had a better "bridge" (Read HPDE) between SoloII and road racing.

I know there are a lot of issues and reasons (manpower, for example) that keep us, as a club, from having a larger role.

As it is, I think we lose a lot of potential racers to marque clubs, like the PCA, where the "racing" is less stressful, (13/13 rule, and lots of previous track time) and there are 12 classes just for 911s! (OK, kidding on the last part, but you get the point)

[ShelbyRacer]

Originally posted by apexingsupra:
Actually SCCA now does have that "bridge", the HPCCC (High Performance Car Control Clinics). I don't care for the title but it is Driver's Education program that has been in existence for the last two years and my region, Alabama, has been putting on HPCCCs the last two years. The program needs to be tweaked some and I have put my two cents in on that and thankfully some changes have been made. It needs to run in a event chair friendly and entrant friendly format and under rules similar to PCA and BMWCCA which have been doing this for a long time without major issues. It needs to be promoted more heavily and I have discussed this with National more than once. They seem to be listening

Well, just FYI- the HPCCC is now PDC, and is part of this whole program. I'll look forward to talking with you at National, since I wrote the rules and such for the PDC based on the HPDE model, and much was taken from privately run events and marque club stuff that worked. I've worked those types of events at various levels (been everything from a participant to a lead instructor), so I (hopefully) wrote the setup to be conducive to organizers AND participants. We were given a lot of latitude, so I wrote what I knew worked, and it seems to have been accepted. We're awaiting final OK from BoD at the Convention meeting, but I'm told that it should be good to go...

Again, I'd LOVE to hear from people, either at convention or afterwards (here or private email) about what you think of the rules. It's my first real work in writing one of these things "from scratch" (the GCR is the pattern, I worked off that), so I'm interested in ANY criticism (with workable suggestions preferably) you guys have. EVen though I think I know everything, I do realize that I have LOTS of room for improvement... http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif



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Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."

[gsbaker]

Matt,

Do you have a draft (or final) copy you can make available? This is a good idea and I would think you could get some constructive input here.

FWIW, I am familiar with many forms of racing (anyone want to talk drag boats, or Pikes Peak hill climbs?) and I constantly hear from the younger set that the SCCA is "too" everything--too many rules, too old, too much of a leap from performance street. This crowd is looking for the road race equivalent of drag strip bracket racing. Drive what ya brung and put a number on it.

Not sure what the answer is, but it is good to hear the Club is working on it.

Gregg

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
...The first few laps at the first drivers school must be real eye openers!! It's not for most, that's for sure!

Aw, c'mon Jake! It's not that bad. All one needs is someone else's Spec Racer Ford and a vivid recollection of one's experience at middle linebacker. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

G

[ShelbyRacer]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
Matt,

Do you have a draft (or final) copy you can make available? This is a good idea and I would think you could get some constructive input here.


At this point, I've been asked to hold everything until final approval and the big press release. National wantd to make a big to-do about it, so I have to wait. So long as it gets approved, I can post the stuff during Convention (I think). It's up to the head honchos to tell me when I can put my work on the line for all to tell me how wrong it is... http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif




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Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."

[Geo]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
...I constantly hear from the younger set that the SCCA is "too" everything--too many rules, too old, too much of a leap from performance street. This crowd is looking for the road race equivalent of drag strip bracket racing. Drive what ya brung and put a number on it.

Sounds like ITE.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[ITANorm]

George, the people he's talking about are the HPCCC (PDE?) folks - the ones without all the mandated safety equipment. They want to be able to experience on-track events without having to add a cage and buy a suit.

IMHO, that's what we need in order to bring new blood into the ranks. What I DON'T have is the magic answer of how to give them all they want without major safety problems.

[Geo]

Originally posted by ITANorm:
George, the people he's talking about are the HPCCC (PDE?) folks - the ones without all the mandated safety equipment. They want to be able to experience on-track events without having to add a cage and buy a suit.

IMHO, that's what we need in order to bring new blood into the ranks. What I DON'T have is the magic answer of how to give them all they want without major safety problems.

Ahhh.... Gotcha.

I agree. DE events are ripe for turning tinkerers into racers. Instead of investing in drifting, the SCCA would do much better to invest in a DE program.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[apexingsupra]

I hope the PDC rules are NOT like the GCR. The GCR is Draconian. As an event chair of HPCCCs (I guess now PDCs), chief instructor, and instructor (for about 4 groups) what is going to make not wanting to put on one of these programs is to have it too complicated from a rules and staffing standpoint. On one hand you mentioned GCR and on the other you mentioned making it easy to implement. Those two phrases don't go together. LOL. If you are writing rules for this program I know I would like to see them before they become "cast in stone" for 2005 and would appreciate sitting down with you at the national convention on this if you have the time.

In talking to Bill Weston on the board, I was advised that the board had vested the Club Racing staff with implementing the program. It was my understanding that the board is not going to vote of the "rules" of what you say will be PDC. You said that you patterned the proposed package after several other marque groups. I hope so. BMWCCA and PCA appear to keep it simple from a participant standpoint but I have not been involved in the hands on management of their events.

I have talked to Brian Cohn in Club Racing in person and on the phone about HPCCC in the last year. Also with Pete Lyon in Risk Management as well.

First the rules started out requiring two workers per corner when no other DE I have either instructed or done F&C at required such. Only one worker per corner. After talking to riks management and then to Brian he said they were going to change that done to one.

The Rules also required the chief instructor to be a licensed Solo 1 or licensed Club racer. Why make a program which should become the second highest participant activity after Solo 2 dependent on an entirely different program? And meaning no offense just because one has a Solo 1 license or Club racing license says nothing about whether that person makes a good instructor or chief instructor. The instructor credentialing needs to on its own in the program.

I would like to see the 85mph "limit" gone. It is so arbitrary and put the steward in an awkward position (what do you do stand there with a radar gun?). I doubt it will be removed but why does SCCA come up with that limit when BMCCCA, PCA, ITRCA, NASA, Tracquest, or folks like Panoz do not have that limit? BMWCCA and PCA have been doing this for quite some time with no issues on a "speed limit" and both organizations use the same insurance carrier as SCCA for DE events so it should not be a underwriting/risk managament issue for the insurance company. Instructors in the car and vigilance by the event chair/staff/corner workers keeps the drivers in check and safe.

When you say GCR I think layers of management of the event. I am very familiar with that having been both Race Chair and Assist. Race Chair for club racing in my region (besides being the RE). Quite Frankly I don't see the need for anything more than an event chair and a safety steward (along the lines of Solo 1 credentialing which shoudl then turn into PDC having its own safety steward credentialing). Why have a chief steward? It is just one more person you have to dig up to volunteer to run the event. You have your event chair who is responsible for making sure all the proper elements have been brought to the event (insurance, contracts, tech, rules, entrants, etc.) and then you should have a safety steward to make sure the event does not get out of hand or is not conducted in an unsafe manner. Under the current set up you have an event chair, chief steward, safety steward, and chief instructor. You don't need all that.

I do a lot of DEs almost always as an instructor (except Panoz at Road Atlanta). I am a certified NASA instructor. I have helped other organization write their "supps", tech forms, marshalled their workers, been their chief instructor.I have also been "control" in Race Control several times for the F&C workers at other marque club DE events. I say this only to indicate that I have had a pretty well rounded exposure to this motorsports activity.

I want to see this program do very well for SCCA. SCCA is behind the curve on this and needs to catch up which I think they are trying to do. It needs to be kept user friendly for regions that don't have tons of volunteers, event chairs who don't want draconian rules and management to conduct the event, or make it not participant friendly. There are plenty other groups out there doing DEs that are low key and fun and if we don't do the same we will not have people agree to chair the event or have many students wanting to run the events.

While I agree that DEs can be a stepping stone to Road Racing, we should also keep in mind that the vast majority of DE drivers don't want to go club racing. They are as happy as pigs in mud bringing out their street cars with maybe a few mods and just driving fast for fun. No dedicated car, tow vehicle and huge drain in the wallet. But I agree that having Solo 2, DEs, Solo 1, and Club racing kind of dovetail is a good idea.

Speaking of good ideas at I like NASA's idea of its "passport" card that the driver gets signed off on each event as to what group they ran and what areas they are doing well on and what areas need improvement. They would really help event chairs, provide a greater measure of guaging someone's ability when you are doing your run groups. Although I think NASA card needs some work too.

I appreciate you taking on the task of writing up the rules and such. I would sure like the opportunity to look at them before they become "the rules". When you said GCR I just thought of that thick, rules laden book. Ugh. I was going to PM you but I didn't see any PM function.

Barry Hair
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by apexingsupra (edited January 08, 2005).]

[ShelbyRacer]

Well Barry, I'll say this-

It sounds like you and I are on the exact same page. Essentially, most of the stuff of which you speak has been addressed in the new rules. You are right in that the BoD will not be approving the new rules on a rule-by-rule basis, but more as a package. They just need to make sure we're not giving away the club in what we've done.

I will say a few things-
No 85mph limit
Separate licensing for officials (including instructors)
LOTS of latitude within the program to incorporate different formats, schedules, etc.
A separate participation card for participants (no "license" per se)
etc.

Yes, we used the GCR as a pattern, because we wanted continuity with club racing. The new Time Trials rules are only about 50pgs with all the stuff included, but only about 10 of that has to do with PDCs. There's evena "quick reference" guide in the first appendix to tell you what portions to look at for each level.

Bryan Cohn and I were just talking about you yesterday (I brought up the conversation we were all having here). I'm pretty sure you'll like what we've done.

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Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."

[apexingsupra]

Bryan tell you I am a squeaky wheel? LOL. Well you can't get changes you think would be good if you don't tell somebody. Bryan is a good guy and always willing to listen. I look forward to seeing your changes and it sounds like you done the right thing. I look forward to seeing the proposed package. I think this program could really affect SCCA's numbers both from a membership and $$ standpoint. It should help my region recruit fresh blood. Thanks for your work.

Barry H.

[dickita15]

barry
it sounds like you got in my head. your conversation with bryan sound exactly like the exchange howard duncan and I had a year ago. the biigest problem I had with putting on hpccc's was needed to beg racing drivers to instruct. the program need to be able to develop talent from within.
Matt
I spoke with my director last night and encouraged support. he saw no problems.
dick