Super Duper Double Ultra Cheap Isaac System

[gsbaker]

(Head Restraint Focus Group Time)

Two things that I recall my marketing professor saying:

1) Even if they are absolutely, positively, completely wrong, the customer is always right--in their own mind.

It is an undeniable fact. If you think the world is flat, there is no way you are getting on that boat with Columbus because if you do you will fall off the edge of the Earth. You are wrong in your perception, but your perception drives your actions. This is an extreme example of course, but we all do it to one degree or another.

In the world of head and neck restraints the vast majority of drivers don’t use them because they are considered to be too expensive. It’s not a matter of being right or wrong, it’s a matter of perceived risk and perceived cost. “They are too expensive. It won’t happen to me. I could put that money toward a set of tires.”

Yes I know, a good product should cost less than $100 per year of service, but most buyers don’t get past the purchase price. Consequently, H&N restraints are used by only 2% of drivers and there is still an average fatality rate of one driver per month attributable to head and neck injuries—-same as ten years ago. This bothers us. A lot.

And,

2) Never, ever under any circumstances announce a new product before it is ready for market.

We don’t have a new product, but we have been looking at a low-cost version of the Isaac system designed for the driver who goes kicking and screaming into every safety purchase. Let’s just say we’ve been scratching on the back of the perennial envelope and like what we see. We know roughly what it will cost to build. We don’t know how well it will work, but it should perform fairly well.

So, should we continue development and bring it to market? We can’t do any scientific surveys here, and we appreciate that there is no yes-or-no answer, but we would like your comments on the following product concept:

Pros:
-Does not have to be worn
-One size fits all
-Can be used with any helmet
-Can be upgraded to a more advanced Isaac system
-Works better (we think) than a webbing-based product like a Hutchens or D-Cel/Simpson.

Cons:
-Doesn’t work as well as an original Isaac (or HANS)
-May require periodic replacement of some components
-Less lateral support than the original Isaac system

Price:
This is a market segment we cannot serve with the original Isaac system because it is simply too expensive to manufacture. Hence, every sale is an incremental dollar earned and a potential life saved, so we are willing to be very aggressive on pricing.

The question for you racers:
What is the price point at which the average amateur racer would respond, “Get outta town/You gotta be kiddin’/No way!”?

Thanks.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[chuck baader]

Greg, what is the actual price of the standard system?

------------------
Chuck Baader
#36 ITA E30 BMW
Alabama Region Divisional Registrar

[gsbaker]

Chuck,

The price of the Intermediate Isaac system (most popular) is $895. We came out with the Basic Isaac system, which uses a simpler pin connector to help address the cost issue, at $725.

We also offer a made-to-order titanium alloy model for very high impact environments, but that's another story.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[itbgti]

Gregg,

I think you are facing an uphill battle (I do applaud the effort, concern for racer's safety, and the business ethics and morals you display). Many people in the racing community do not put safety as their number one priority. That being said, I would think your system would have to come in at the <$200 range...why?: there is a H&N restraint system in stores now, Hutchens Device (which I am sure you have tons of data on), which is in the $250-$400 range Keep in mind I am not comparing device vs. device for safety/usability features, just H&N Restraint costs. If people are not attracted to the $250 models, then I cannot see them opening their wallets unless it is lower than $200.

Regards,
Alan

FYI- I own/use a HANS....best purchase I made, those who were at NHIS this year for the first race, saw I REALLY tested it. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif


EDIT: I re-read your post...you mention Hutchens, and how your product "may" work better.....hypothetically, let's say it works twice as well, for the same cost as a Hutchens, I still dont think you will grab additonally customers...you may gain some market share from Simpson, Hutchens, d-cell, etc, but I think you were targeting those who have not purchased due to price


[This message has been edited by itbgti (edited September 30, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by itbgti (edited September 30, 2004).]

[gsbaker]

Alan,

Great post, for several reasons. I found interesting two comments:


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">FYI- I own/use a HANS....best purchase I made, those who were at NHIS this year for the first race, saw I REALLY tested it.</font> http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

You are a believer. Drivers who have had major hits are the best proponents of H&N restraints--forget the brand. Our second (?) customer lost his brakes at 130mph at the end of a straight and spent three months in a neck brace. Then he bought an Isaac system. You guys get it.

After your hit, did you say to yourself, "This thing is overpriced!"? http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

And,


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I think you were targeting those who have not purchased due to price.</font>

Exactly. One might call them the non-believers. Either the sanctioning body or the wife says, "You must use something."

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[John Herman]

I think if you get in the range of the cost of entering a race weekend, approximately $250-300, you can't get much better than that. Note, I all ready own the standard Isaac system, though not tested http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif.

[ulfelder]

Like Alan, I got a HANS before the 2004 season. Unlike Alan, I have yet to go on my lid with it. <knock wood>

As to the price point: My gut tells me it has to drop all the way to $149 to be a no-brainer. At that point, it's cheaper than a regional, cheaper than a decent helmet, cheaper than a tire. I can picture lots of non-believers saying, "OK, OK, so I'll get one ..." at that price.

Steve U
05 ITS
Flatout Motorsports

[Speed Raycer]

Just remember to post every test detail for Juan (or whatever his name is over at SM.com) even if Hutchens and G-Force doesn't http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

------------------
Scott Rhea
It's not what you build...
it's how you build it
http://www.izzyscustomcages.com/images/IzysLgoSm.jpg (http://www.izzyscustomcages.com)
Izzy's Custom Cages (http://www.izzyscustomcages.com)

[gsbaker]

LOL!! Scott, you lurker you!

Ah yes, the infamous Juan. :beatheadagainstwallicon: Sheesh.

Let's all think happy thoughts, okay?

Now, where were we?

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[benracin]

Hi Gregg. I agree with the rest of this post that a price around $200-$300 would be cool. I think even $300 would grab my attention. I'm a pretty low budget guy and have been interested in getting a H&N restraint for awhile now. For me it's not the sacrifice of go fast goodie or more safety, it's more 'get this part so that I can actually race' or not race and get an H&N restraint. It's that old "how much to you value your head" arguement which I know I'm on the wrong side of. So I like the idea of an affordable device. The one thing I would have to be sure of is that the device, at this lower price, would still function well. I like the Isaac, looks like a cool idea, but I would have to know that the more affordable option would still perform. Kind of a tough bind for you isn't it! I do appreciate your efforts though.

On a different note, I do have one question about the Issac. I don't currently race enduro's, but lets say I did and a driver change was part of the race. With the Hans and others, each driver can just hop out or in wearing whatever. Lets say each driver is an Issac user. Can the Issac quickly go from one person to the next?

Thanks Gregg.

Ben Harding

[planet6racing]

Ben, remind me about this question next weekend. You can see just how easy it is. The Isaac stays in the car and all the driver needs is the helmet with the mounts glued/screwed to it. As soon as the driver hops in, it's belts, steering wheel, radio, Isaac (or some order like that) and away you go.

If you want to know more about that, just shoot me an e-mail. I don't want to clutter up Gregg's thread anymore...

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[924Guy]

We were just chatting about this on another forum... and I'll be running in the Last Chance Enduro at the Glen with mine; another driver has a HANS, and one has nothing at all. We'll just pop in the ISAAC when I'm in, just clip it onto the belts as needed...

------------------
Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITA/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com

[itbgti]

Ben,

Since you said $200-$300 would grab your attention, how come you have not looked at the Hutchens style H&N restraints?

(I only ask this to help Gregg's original question of what the right price would be, and to help prove my point of <$200)

Regards,
Alan

[gsbaker]

Some good points have been raised so far. I'd like to get into this more, but need to finish up a few things before the work week ends.

In the meantime,


Originally posted by benracin:
...The one thing I would have to be sure of is that the device, at this lower price, would still function well. I like the Isaac, looks like a cool idea, but I would have to know that the more affordable option would still perform. Kind of a tough bind for you isn't it! I do appreciate your efforts though...

Thanks Gregg.

Ben Harding

Ben,

We are estimating (really rough) that it is going to come in at between 300 and 600 pounds of load in a 45G sled test, maybe better. For comparison, check here: http://isaacdirect.com/html/chart.html



------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
Exactly. One might call them the non-believers. Either the sanctioning body or the wife says, "You must use something."

(I don't know that I've ever quoted myself before, but it's a good way to make a correction.)

I was wrong. Ben is a good example of a budget-conscious believer. He is price sensitive, but for different reasons than the non-believer.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by ulfelder:
...As to the price point: My gut tells me it has to drop all the way to $149 to be a no-brainer. At that point, it's cheaper than a regional, cheaper than a decent helmet, cheaper than a tire. I can picture lots of non-believers saying, "OK, OK, so I'll get one ..." at that price.

Steve U
05 ITS
Flatout Motorsports

Steve,

Ouch. $149 would definitely get a lot of attention, but I don't believe it is possible. The liability exposure alone is probably that much per sale.

Nice target price though!

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

FYI, readers may want to examine how major products perform, their costs and which represents the best buy. We did a rough analysis a while back, so I thought we might throw this out for you to play with. Feel free to tinker with the numbers.

Unfortunately, many buyers do not get this detailed in their product evaluations. For the purpose of this thread, we are talking about the guy who considers all products the same and wants to buy on the cheap.

http://www.isaacdirect.com/Productpricing.xls


------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[GEO46]

FWIW. Been out of a racecar for two years now. I definetly plan in being in one next year. I plan on having some sort of H&N restraint.

I will probably being doing Co-drivers races, or if we do actually get two cars going, swapping cars regularly.

Since he already he already has a HANS devise, That would naturally bee my first choice. Just so that we are compatible, consistant, and to ease the confusion of swapping drivers.

However, As a stand alone racer, with my own car, and no other facters added in. I would already be looking at your product. Price it under $500.00 and I'll be looking at it even if this deal goes through.

[jhooten]

This is club racing. The speeds are low. The rules prohibit car to car contact. I am a good driver and my car is safe. I don't need to spend big bucks for something that I will never need. I won't happen to me, it only happens to the other guy.

Until you get past the club racing denial syndrome you could give them away and not all drivers would use them.

Having said that there is still one other device out there that no one has mentioned. The Wright device. Plans for which are available on the internet for users to construct their own at minimal cost. How many of them have you seen in use?

[Wayne]

2%??? I had no idea the number was that small.

I own the intermediate issac (I think that's the model). But as far as the guys I race with that don't have a restraint system goes. They tend to think of cost in terms of racing "components" i.e. cost of tires, entry fees etc.

Realistically, with these guys, you would need to be not much more then one "race tire", and less then one "entry fee". Say sub $200 level. Otherwise this group will just blow it off without a second thought. Regardless of how great the product is.

Wayne

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by jhooten:
...Until you get past the club racing denial syndrome you could give them away and not all drivers would use them.

Agreed. This is what leads to mandates.

It very much depends on the type of racing. There are 14,500 road racers in the US but 135,000 oval trackers + 153,000 drag racers. Many of the oval series are beginning to mandate H&N restraints, but even where they are not required oval drivers are more accepting of them.

Thanks for the input.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[benracin]

Hi Alan, not to knock anyone who has a Hutchens style device, but I kind of see those as the type of restraint you wear when you are just trying to satisfy some Nascar rules. I know something is probably better than nothing, but when I see those devices on TV they always look like they would have a ton of slack in them. Seems like there is a lot of material there to stretch in an impact. I don't know, I guess when I see a Nascar dude who has loads of cash not buy the best and instead buy the cheapest, it kind of does the opposite of telling me "it may be cheaper, but I use it because it works". I've heard some of those same Nascar drivers mention something like "next year I'll be using the Hans" as well. I guess I have the feeling that Nascar drivers wear the Hutchens because it's the least they can do, and although I'm below that by using nothing, doing the least I can do for safety just doesn't sound cool. (Hypocritical ain’t I!)

The Hutchens did have my interest, but I thought it would just be better to see if I can save the money and get an Issac or a Hans. The other models with all their webing and straps just look kind of hokey to me. But if I can get an Issac for a similar price, well I just might be sold. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Ben.

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by benracin:
...I know something is probably better than nothing, but when I see those devices on TV they always look like they would have a ton of slack in them. Seems like there is a lot of material there to stretch in an impact.

In general, these designs work okay if they are kept very tight--not just low slack but actually preloaded. I've met several young racers on tight budgets who get good value by cranking these things down. They have also said, "I'd use an Isaac if it were cheaper." Hence this thread.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I've heard some of those same Nascar drivers mention something like \"next year I'll be using the Hans\" as well. I guess I have the feeling that Nascar drivers wear the Hutchens because it's the least they can do...</font>

It depends. Some use the Hutchens because it is the least they can do. Other use it because they don't like the HANS. Tony Stewart (who, I hear, is somewhat claustrophobic) switched from the Hutchens to the HANS and back to the Hutchens. Other stock car drivers stay away from the HANS because they can't get it past the head surrounds when they need to bail.

From a convenience standpoint, one of the reasons we see drivers leaving the Hutchens-style products is that it is restrictive. That is especially an issue with oval trackers who, between multiple practice sessions, qualifying and racing in the same day, are always getting in and out of the car. You can't peel down your suit to cool off if the webbing is in the way--not a trivial issue if you are talking Florida in August.


But if I can get an Issac for a similar price, well I just might be sold.

Ben.

It sounds like $150 is a no-brainer (but can't happen) and $500 is a maybe.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[Joe Camilleri]

If you could do an Issac system for $500 I'd buy one tomorrow. But I don't know how you could make it cheaper without losing something.

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Joe Camilleri:
If you could do an Issac system for $500 I'd buy one tomorrow. But I don't know how you could make it cheaper without losing something.

Joe,

You would lose something. This design is less expensive because is uses simpler components. That's fine, but the simplicity also reduces its effectiveness. It should perform at a level between the webbing products and the Isaac/HANS products.

The single best measure of the performance of any H&N restraint is percentage head load reduction (HLR) for a given crash protocol. In general, webbing-based products such as the Hutchens, Simpson/D-Cel, Wright, etc. offer HLR levels ranging between 45% and 75%. At the other end of the spectrum the Isaac system and HANS device offer HLR values that are virtually identical (if the HANS straps are not too loose) at 85%+.

We are estimating the HLR for this design concept to range between 65% and 75%.

So, yes, you are giving up some protection, but for many drivers it may be more than adequate. Considering some of the pricing you guys are suggesting, we're talking roughly 75% of the performance at 50% of the cost.

It's not a Lamborghini, it's a Yugo.

We are very proud that our designs will protect drivers to loads of over 100Gs, but if drivers are dying at 30Gs because they can't afford an Isaac system, perhaps we should stop patting ourselves on the back long enough to do something about it.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[924Guy]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
We are very proud that our designs will protect drivers to loads of over 100Gs, but if drivers are dying at 30Gs because they can't afford an Isaac system, perhaps we should stop patting ourselves on the back long enough to do something about it.
[/B]

I'm glad someone thinks that way!!! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

(PS - and so are my wife and mother)

------------------
Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITA/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com (http://www.vaughanscott.com)

[This message has been edited by 924Guy (edited October 04, 2004).]

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by 924Guy:
I'm glad someone thinks that way!!! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

(PS - and so are my wife and mother)



...says the Isaac user who has crashed. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif



------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[lateapex911]

First, I assume that the new design would be along the same damper concept as the rest of the line. If not, that would be a serious problem.

Lets face it guys, there is no such thing as "too much" H&N protection, but.......there sure is such a thing as "too little"! Like none! At our speeds, I would wager a device that operated at the 70% HLR level would be more than adequate in 99.6% of our crashes that are of a "significant" level. Something..anything.. IS better than nothing, and we should remember that we are not crashing at NHRA or IRL speeds.

Therefore, such a system should prove a huge succcess, and would protect MOST drivers in MOST situations better, for less money, than the web based systems.

Also, keep in mind that those web systems flat wear out, and need to be adjusted correctly every single use, or they are as good as useless...

I'm thinking $395, but that might not be the number that sells 'em like hotcakes! To do that they should sell for the cost of one race entry, around $200, but having one priced so low might hurt your credibility.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited October 04, 2004).]

[ddewhurst]

Why do two flo controled skocks with brackes cost the end user $900 ?

Have Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

[lateapex911]

hey David-

What two shocks (dampers) do you recommend I put on my system? And where do I put them? How long should they be?

Let me know so I can start building!

Oh....and also, if it's not too much trouble, could you perhaps provide some documentation? Things like the calculations...or hey...even better, how 'bout some real live crash test data? I'd feel sooo much better if I knew how it would perform when I put it together....

http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

But hey...maybe I'm just a little nervous these days!

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[ddewhurst]

Jake, do ya think I thought of all your stated items before I posted. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif The difference between my post & the others is that I posted what I was thinking. Gregg is a neat guy (met him a couple years ago) but that will not stop me from asking the question.

Have Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

[its66]

Monroe gas-matic vs. Moton

Just thinking out loud-dangerous, I know.

Jim



[This message has been edited by its66 (edited October 05, 2004).]

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Why do two flo controled skocks with brackes cost the end user $900 ?

Have Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

Or, why does some Kevlar laid up in a mold that's already paid for from a company that's had most of its R&D subsidized by GM and DaimlerChrysler cost the end user $900, or $1,200 if the mold is shaped for a formula driver?

Or (here's my favorite), why does a webbing assembly made in China which includes dog leash material cost the end user $250-$450?

Answer: It has nothing to do with the cost of physical production and everything to do with volume, R&D and lawyers.

If you think this is bad, try the medical industry. The present cost to develop a new pill is $500 million, with no guarantee that it will work and no guarantee the FDA will approve it if it does. If it doesn't, that's just too damn bad; you eat 1/2 a billion. If it does it will keep someone alive or out of a wheelchair or operating room, but you can be sure that same person is going to complain that their pill cost $3.

I was involved in the development of a medical product that had a 93% profit (contribution margin ratio for you accountants). We dropped it because it was not worth it.

If anyone has a better way to do this, please let us know.

We have the lowest profit margin in the industry, with the possible exception of Jay Wright.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

Edit: spelling is good.

[This message has been edited by gsbaker (edited October 05, 2004).]

[Wayne]

Gregg,
I'm sure you realize that the folks on this forum are a minority of the club racers out there. Not only that, but I would venture to guess they are for the most part more technically inclined and safety conscious.

So, I try to answer the question from the point of view of many of the guys I race with. With that in mind, I think you would be pissing in the snow at a $500 price point. It is simply too much. You and I, and others on this board can pontificate about the importance of safety, $10 helmet/$10 head, yada, yada, yada, till the cows come home.

It's not going to change the market out there. Which is all about perceived value and price. We are a nation of walmart shoppers looking for the blue light special in every aspect of our lives.

Lets take a look at how the "typical" person does the "value math" in their head. "Restraint system" hmmmm, I can buy a full set of belts (restraint system) for $120 nowadays. Head and neck "restraint" system = $700. That math just does not work. Let's take it a bit further. Belts = a bunch of webbing, some buckles, latches, hardware etc. $120. H&N system = some small cables, a couple little shocks, and some hardware. $700... THAT math really doesn't work.

Being in business for a number of years now, specifically product development and new business start-ups. I'm painfully aware of the costs associated with product development. But the bottom line is, the customer doesn't care. It's not their problem (I know you realize this, just making the point).

If you want to sell more h&n systems to this group of people, one of three things need to happen:
1. They have a serious wreck that serves as a wake up call.
2. One of their close friends has a serous wreck that serves as a wake up call.
3. The price point is "reasonable", such that it is not an agonizing financial decision any more. "ok, might as well get an h&n now that they are down to $200".
All the graphs, and data, and technical mumbo jumbo are not going to sell quantities of this product.

We are a short attention span, what's in it for me, materialistic, high shock value, instant gratification society these days. A society who learns best visually. Want to sell more of your existing h&n system? Make a mobile sled test demo trailer, and take it to the major events.

You need to "shock" people into understanding the seriousness of this issue. Graphs, data tables, pictures, videos etc are not enough. It needs to be in their face. They need to see, in person, that dummy slamming its head on the steering wheel. With this approach, you capture them in their environment. It becomes real for them, they can imagine themselves as the dummy. Yes, I know there is issues with costs, staffing, and access to events. But it was a thought.

As far as differentiating this new, less expensive product as being "slightly less effective". I might be a bit uncomfortable with that type of marketing strategy. Again, keep in mind your audience (not the people on this board). They tend to view an h&n system as either being "good enough", or not. If you come out with a $400 system that "maybe" "slightly less effective" (dependant on the situation) then the $700 system. They are likely to view the $400 system as "good enough" and write off your $700 system as price gouging.

I realize you can justify the price/performance differentiation with technical data, but there is just too much gray area here, and "black magic" for the average person. They just don't care about this percentage or that percentage. In their mind, it is either "good enough" for "most situations" or it is not. They want to buy a "reasonably priced" h&n system, that works "good enough", under "most circumstances".

From a business stand point, what it really comes down to I suppose, is the opportunity costs associated with bringing the lower cost system to market. If the design is in the can, and the costs to bring the thing to market and support are next to nothing. Then I suppose the incremental sales of the lower cost model might be worth it. However, if the costs are objectionable, you may be better off allocating those resources towards selling more of your existing system. Particularly if you envision the new system stealing sales from the existing one.

Wayne

[gsbaker]

Wayne,

You make some excellent points.


Originally posted by Wayne:
You need to "shock" people into understanding the seriousness of this issue. Graphs, data tables, pictures, videos etc are not enough. It needs to be in their face. They need to see, in person, that dummy slamming its head on the steering wheel.

This is why we don't get excited about posting crash videos on the net. People get bogged down trying to analyze every last piece of minutae and they miss the point.

And "the point" is every bit as impressive as you imply--probably more so. I recall the first time I witnessed a live crash test, standing about 20 feet from the impact area. It is amazingly violent. I have witnessed several and they still send a chill up my spine.

And, yes, it needs to be up close and personal. We had a large spike in orders from the West Coast this week because of the deaths at Thunderhill last Friday, but normal activity from everywhere else.

It's sad, but we can always tell when there has been a racing fatality over the weekend: our Web site traffic will spike up 500%-1,000%.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[planet6racing]

I REALLY like the portable sled idea. It wouldn't even have to be fully instrumented, just enough so that it would show the loads in the head/neck and the acceleration speeds. Beyond that, the visual of the body, arms, head, and everything else flailing around should show them what can really happen, even if it is only from 35 mph.

Heck, if they argued with the way the test was setup, they could get in there, set up the dummy's restraints themselves, then watch the test run. Only problem is, the test happens so quickly, you'd need to record it at high speed, then slow it down and watch the video...

I might have to kick this idea around a little next week.

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

{edit: spelled there with one of its homonyms}

[This message has been edited by planet6racing (edited October 08, 2004).]

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by planet6racing:
I REALLY like the portable sled idea...

Heck, if they argued with the way the test was setup, they could get in there...

I might have to kick this idea around a little next week.

Bill, dear readers, has seen our crash videos. (Someone remind me to bring them to the ARRC. Not as effective as a live test, but still entertaining.)

Okay Bill, I'm going to let a little cat out of the bag, but only because you are going to spend some grey matter thinking about this subject.

Ready? Here it is: We have given very serious thought to building an abbreviated, low impact "crash sled" that real drivers can ride. We're talking something that generates 5, maybe 10Gs tops. Gravity powered.

We got the idea after an Isaac user (my SCCA instructor in fact) dove into the tires at Sebring. It was a big enough jolt to feel, but small enough that he was not in panic mode and was able to notice everything. He said it was the most bizzare sensation--very "soft". Then he suggested I try it! See the second entry here:
http://www.isaacdirect.com/html/OtherPages...rsComments.html (http://www.isaacdirect.com/html/OtherPages/RacersComments.html)

There is no way I'm going to strap myself into a 50G sled, but a 5G sled would be very interesting.

The problem is dragging it around the country. The PRI show, however, will be in Orlando next year. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

Edit: double bold

[This message has been edited by gsbaker (edited October 08, 2004).]

[planet6racing]

Funny you should mention that. Every year at the McCormick Place Chicago Car Show, the Sheriff or State Police have a sled, gravity powered, that lets people experience a low g impact. That would probably be perfect for you, if you swapped in a real racing seat and harness versus the normal seat and 3-point belt.

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[Mike Spencer]

Gregg -

There's already a thread re: the November FasTrack, but no mention of this little goodie;

D. Head and neck restraint systems such as
HANS are recommended. These systems shall
be mounted per the manufacturer's recommendations and shall not violate the single latch requirement (emphasis added) of the occupant restraint system.

You've GOT to view this as a victory, no?

------------------
Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by planet6racing:
Funny you should mention that. Every year at the McCormick Place Chicago Car Show, the Sheriff or State Police have a sled, gravity powered, that lets people experience a low g impact. That would probably be perfect for you, if you swapped in a real racing seat and harness versus the normal seat and 3-point belt.

Really? You mean we can buy the rig out of the box? Not that fabricating one would be a problem...

Oh yeah: frontal, offset frontal and lateral impacts with full harness and racing seat, and let racers try it with no H&N restraint, an Isaac system and a HANS device.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Mike Spencer:

Gregg -

There's already a thread re: the November FasTrack, but no mention of this little goodie;

D. Head and neck restraint systems such as
HANS are recommended. These systems shall
be mounted per the manufacturer's recommendations and shall not violate the single latch requirement (emphasis added) of the occupant restraint system.

You've GOT to view this as a victory, no?



Mike,

Not necessarily.

I think we are making progress, but the wording is still very unclear. There is no reference to "harnesses" as in Section 20.4, and "occupant restraint" could be considered to include the window net. So this means you must remove the net if you use a recommended H&N restraint? I don't believe that's what was intended. Also, "shall" is probably being used as a synonym for "must", which is not in our favor.

It reads like, "We hate the Isaac system." Probably because the HANS folks told them to.

I hope they get this cleared up before someone gets killed. Oops, too late. Two guys died at Thunderhill a few days ago of apparent BSF while practicing for an SCCA event.

Topeka is also behind the curve on the helmet thing. From the same FasTrack:

"New Business:
Action Item: Doug Robinson is instructed
to contact major helmet manufacturers to
determine if installing a HANS device would
void a helmet's certification or warranty, and determine under what circumstances it can
be done. A Competitor Bulletin recommending
head and neck support systems will be
issued upon receipt of this information."

I'm going to save Doug a little time:

1) Helmets don't have warranties.

2) Snell certification expressly states that any modification of the helmet structure voids the certification. The only way to retain the Snell certification when attaching a H&N restraint component is to use the Isaac adhesive. Ergo, the only legal H&N restraint in SCCA Club Racing is the Isaac system; the HANS device is out.

So here is what SCCA Club Racing is saying, as best as we can tell (Pro Racing mandates a H&N restraint from any manufacture):

You really should use a H&N restaint. However, since we require Snell certified helmets you can't attach the H&N restraint to your helmet unless it is an Isaac system with the adhesive. And the window net is iffy too.

More work is needed.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

edit: double bold

[This message has been edited by gsbaker (edited October 11, 2004).]

[Knestis]

Back in the '80s when I was doing school presentations about seatbelt use with our racing car, one of the Seattle area law enforcement agencies (maybe King Co?) had a sled like is mentioned here.

It would be very cool to put the seat on a turntable with locks so lateral and offset impacts could be simulated.

It would be EXTRA cool if it could incorporate a typical late-model sedan interior and roof so people could get a picture of how close they are going to get to the various hard parts involved...

K

[Wayne]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
Oh yeah: frontal, offset frontal and lateral impacts with full harness and racing seat, and let racers try it with no H&N restraint, an Isaac system and a HANS device.
How did you get that idea by your legal council? Damn, my neck has been hurting for weeks after riding Gregg's human crash sled at the last race weekend... better go see the Doctor$$$$$ http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

At any rate, I think the portable crash sled demo would be more effective then the circus ride concept. Think about the sales pitch after the guy rides the sled at a severely reduced rate of force. Racer: "wow, that was pretty intense" Gregg: "Yeah, now just imagine it being 10 times worse". Well guess what? They can't imagine it being 10 times worse because they have never SEEN what a real crash looks like (from the outside looking in). The only way I see the circus ride concept being really effective is if you turn up the force such that it really does hurt their necks. Obviously that's not a good idea.

Racers need to see, hear, and feel the violence of the impact, when observing the cockpit area from outside the car(cutaway car). They need to be able to see themselves being in that seat. They need to "see" what happens to "their body" when they are involved in a wreck.

I would envision a three quarter cutaway car open for observation from the drivers side. The rest of the interior is just like a typical sedan race car (as K mentioned). The dummy is fully suited up and is proportionate to a real driver. You could either have the entire 3/4 car travel forward and slam to a stop. Or you could have the driver in the race seat travel forward from behind the car, and slam to a stop inside the car where it would normally be mounted. Probably would be preferable to have the whole 3/4 car travel along the track though.

Assuming you could allow people to get fairly close to the demo rig, this would satisfy the visual requirement for demonstrating the violence. They could see what happens to them in the cockpit during a violent crash.

There needs to be sound as well. Sound that indicates great momentum, and nauseating violence when halted. The natural sound of the mechanical sled mechanism may work for this depending on how loud it is. You want people to hear that thing ramping up speed, tearing along the track, and slamming to a stop. This would satisfy the audio part of the assault on the senses equation.

Finally, the sense of feel. They need to have some feel of the violence when the impact is made. You could make the platform like they make the ones for pro wrestling. With springs and such that allow you to feel any vibration or impact on the platform itself. Imagine people standing on this platform watching the sled/car rocket down the track (feeling the vibration of car/mechanism) and slamming to a halt (feeling the sickening vibration and shudder of the impact) right in front of them.

Bonus visual: Use very large analog gauges to indicate the various forces and measurements of the sled. Digital gauges have no points of reference, and do nothing to communicate the level of violence that is taking place on the sled. People need to see that needle moving.

Yeah, that's the ticket! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Wayne

[gsbaker]

Wayne,

That’s hilarious! No, I mean that in a good way, honest! We should put you in charge of field sales, because you have captured all the elements that make a crash test so impressive. It’s all there; the sights, the sounds and the vibrations. Have you observed a crash test?

You are, of course, correct. The rig you describe will do the job, and do it nicely. I have given up trying to describe crash tests. Videos help, and are good for certain types of analyses, but do not come close to describing what that anthropometrically mean adult male dummy goes through as he gets the snot slammed out of him. Although I had studied the subject in depth, viewed several crash videos and couldn’t wait to see our first Fz values, my reaction to our first crash test resembles the scene in “Animal House” where John Belushi realizes he just shot the horse in the Dean’s office: “Holy $hit! Holy $hit!..."

But you have to be very fast: the peak loads occur in about 30 milliseconds. For a sense of perspective, the blink of an eye takes about 25ms. The only other problems are that 1) we would be assaulted by racers who would not get into a minivan without an Isaac system and, 2) spend well into seven figures for a multi-ton rig that would barely fit on a rail flat car.

Cool idea though. I love the image.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[Knestis]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
... It’s all there; the sights, the sounds and the vibrations. Have you observed a crash test? ...

Now you just need the smells. Coolant, hot rubber, and poopy drawers.

K

[bobpink]

Originally posted by gsbaker:

2) Snell certification expressly states that any modification of the helmet structure voids the certification. The only way to retain the Snell certification when attaching a H&N restraint component is to use the Isaac adhesive. Ergo, the only legal H&N restraint in SCCA Club Racing is the Isaac system; the HANS device is out.


The above statement is not entirely true as far as only one device being "legal" for SCCA Club Racing.

A racer could purchase the G-FORCE Racing Gear SRS-1 which already has the mounting points for the helmet restraint device molded into the helmet. No holes, no glue, no fuss. Yes, you do have to buy a G-FORCE helmet, but the whole set-up can be purchased for just under $600 depending on the helmet. And like the other devices, there are many testimonials to its effectiveness - most recently the Spec Miata driver who crashed drivers left at Turn 5 at Road Atlanta in July.

I know where you are going as far as the mounting the Isaac device to the helmet using glue to not void the Snell certification...

------------------
Bob Pinkowski
Atlanta Region SCCA
ITS Honda Prelude

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by bobpink:
The above statement is not entirely true as far as only one device being "legal" for SCCA Club Racing.

A racer could purchase the G-FORCE Racing
Gear SRS-1...

Bob,

Good point. Of course, we are now above the $500 figure, which these guys seem to indicate is the top of the "inexpensive" range.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I know where you are going as far as the mounting the Isaac device to the helmet using glue to not void the Snell certification...</font>

Really? Where? http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

The bottom line is that new concepts never fit old rules. I'm certain the first light bulb never complied with any rules written by the kerosene lamp committee. In the end the rules get changed.

Hopefully the SCCA is smart enough to realize that any H&N restraint is a plus for safety. If they deny a driver the use of any make or model and the driver gets hurt, the family will sue them into the next dimension.

BTW Bob, does your product comply with Section 20.4 of the GCR?

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[HBennett]

I don't have my '04 GCR handy, but if you are referring to the point about an H&N restraint equipped driver being released from a single point with the harness, yes it does. When the harness is released, the SRS-1 is released with the driver.

Howard Bennett
Racer Wholesale

[HBennett]

Another interesting bit that I just discovered from the from the Snell helmet certification papers:

Page 10

"CONSTRUCTION

A. General

The assembled helmet shall have smooth external and internal surfaces. Any feature projecting more than 7 mm beyond the outer surface must readily break away; all other
projections on the outer surface shall be smoothly faired and offer minimal frictional
resistance to tangential impact forces. Rivets and similar projections into the helmet interior must offer no laceration or puncture hazard. Restraint clips may be used at the rear or on the side of the helmet. The helmet shall provide as nearly uniform impact protection over the entire protected area as is possible."

I'm not trying to start a contest here, I really would like to know. Thanks.

Howard Bennett
Racer Wholesale

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by HBennett:
...When the harness is released, the SRS-1 is released with the driver.

Howard Bennett
Racer Wholesale

So how do you keep the belts from slipping off?

(Where's Bob?)



------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[bobpink]

Here I am Gregg http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

With the SRS-1 the device there is no actual attachment to the shoulder belts, but is located behind the driver's head by the "cape" and "reaction rod". These help center the device under the shoulder harnesses. This is what allows the driver freedom of movement.

We have not run across any situations where the device can come out from under the harnesses.

Gregg, does it look like you will be able to make the ARRC this year?

------------------
Bob Pinkowski
Atlanta Region SCCA
ITS Honda Prelude

[This message has been edited by bobpink (edited October 14, 2004).]

[gsbaker]

Fascinating.

Yes, I'll be there, trying to find a sub-$500 high-performance head and neck restraint.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[Al Seim]

Gregg:

As to your original "focus group" question:

Thinking about my own recent race car equipment purchases, I'd say that my own point of "what the heck, it's only $xxx" is probably about $350 - $400.

Al Seim
Action Digital Race Data
www.actdigital.com (http://www.actdigital.com)

[gsbaker]

Al,

Thanks.

I think I know where we are on this.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[Quickshoe]

Impromptu market reasearch:

I crewed at an event this weekend where a "safety seminar" was held at lunch time. This is at a track that recently had two fatalaties, and one person airlifted away to a trauma center in tow unrelated accidents. Needles to say, the drivers' meeting had an extra emphasis on safety.

I decided to attend this voluntary seminar to see what I might learn, and what kind of misinformation was out there.

The speaker seemed unbiased and didn't bad mouth or try to sell any particular item. There was good discussion about proper seat mounting (but no discussion of seats having additional lateral head restraints).

A brief discussion about harness material (polyester vs. nylon) and their 'stretch'--yet no mention of proper mounting, routing and need to make certain they are TIGHT.

Fire systems and supplement handhelds were also touched on, among other things.

Finally they discussed the various head and neck restraint systems and their relative effectiveness (in generalities) the pros and cons (in the presenters' eyes) of each. Finally questions were asked about price...

After a 30 minute discussion about safety, combined with the recent deaths at the same facility (4th at the track in the last 3 years that I am aware of) two racers picked up and tried on the HANS, a handful questioned us about the ISAAC and ALL OF THE REST immediately checked out the $200 Wright device. I was asked about the ease of release on the ISAAC and actually heard a jaw or two drop when they saw how quickly I could release the unit.

Yet, at least 90% were checking out the $200 device...I guess I just don't get it.

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Quickshoe:
...I was asked about the ease of release on the ISAAC and actually heard a jaw or two drop when they saw how quickly I could release the unit.

Yet, at least 90% were checking out the $200 device...I guess I just don't get it.

Thanks Daryl. That was helpful.

We believe most of these $200 lookers consider all H&N restraints to be the same. It's a binary yes/no decision: "I'm safe because I have a H&N restraint."

However, the drivers who have been close to a serious crash study the subject enough to note the difference in the products. We also receive many orders from drivers who have tried other products.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[Campbell]

This is an interesting topic, I keep thinking that I haven't used a H&N system to this point so I have full injury exposure. I can spend $100 to $150 on a Wright device and gain some level of protection (on a scale of 80% or 90% of the most effective?) or $750 or more for leading protection. I think rather than nothing I should at least do the Wright device while sorting out what to do. Continuing with nothing now seems too risky.

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Campbell:
...I can spend $100 to $150 on a Wright device and gain some level of protection (on a scale of 80% or 90% of the most effective?) or $750 or more for leading protection....

More like 60%-70%. Details are here: http://isaacdirect.com/html/chart.html

By all means, please use something. Jay's design is a good place to start. It works as well as the more heavily promoted designs at a huge discount.

The economic problem with the webbing products comes when the drivers realize they are only good for two years. You can spend over $200 per year for something like a Simpson.

If you want to dip your toe in the H&N restraint water, webbing products are a good place to start. And if you want the best value in a webbing product, use Jay Wright's.


------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[This message has been edited by gsbaker (edited October 25, 2004).]

[gsbaker]

Oops. Double post.

G

[This message has been edited by gsbaker (edited October 25, 2004).]

[Campbell]

Greg,

What are the light colored boxes on the restraint chart for webbing and the Hans device? thanks

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Campbell:
What are the light colored boxes on the restraint chart for webbing and the Hans device? thanks

That area reflects a range of loads. In general, the tighter the better for most H&N systems.

"Webbing" applies to such products as the Hutchens, D-Cel, Simpson, etc., i.e a form of webbing network about the torso. These can perform well if worn tightly.

Some drivers loosen the straps on the HANS device, so the head loads increase.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com