Wonder how many ITS customers these have been sold to

[ITSWannabe]

<a href=http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=4373>Are these legal?</a>

We might want to watch out for these at the ARRC. I know the most of the BMWs in the Southeast don't use these cams but from the ad it appears that someone at Turner knows that cams don't get checked to often and they can be used in an IT motor. How did they learn this?

[its66]

If a part is advertised as a "cheater" cam and it is more aggressive than stock, I highly doubt it could be deemed legal.

Jim
ITS RX7
no cheater cams here. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

[Geo]

That ad is quite disturbing. Personally, I think the penalty for such a cheat should be draconian.

It's not a casual cheat, it clearly is designed to add power. You have to go out of your way ($800 plus the time and/or money for installation) to use it. And it's highly unlikely the PO installed it before you bought it.



------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[planet6racing]

My favorite thing about this is that the person who posted it has a post count of 1...

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[Greg Amy]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the E36 is such a far superior vehicle that any E36 driver who feels the need to cheat is just flat out ignorant and stupid.

There's no value in cheating: you're gonna stomp on all the other non-E36 cars anyway (and if you don't, you need to spend your money at Bondurant, not the parts store). If you're *all* cheating, there's no advantage to it. And, if you do cheat and go even faster, you're setting yourself and your BMW compadres for a massive b*t*h-slapping when the talks of PCA adjustments and requests come around in a few weeks when Fastrack is published.

Spend more money, win races you were gonna win anyway, and get b*t*h-slapped: why would you want to do something so stupid?

(shrug)

[gsbaker]

"Excellent condition"? Are these things used? 800 bucks for used cams? And people claim safety gear is expensive.

Okay, they aren't used, they are "track experienced". Now I get it.

George is right, someone should nail this guy--or his buyer. Hmm, anyone have a cam profile for a stock E36 M3 cam? Hmm?

Gregg

[ITSRX7]

Remember folks, most of Turner's business is hyped-up street stuff. Cool upgrade for his target market.

I don't like the implications but lets not go on a witch-hunt.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[seamus88]

I dont think ITS guys should be using regular M3 cams either.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by seamus88:
I dont think ITS guys should be using regular M3 cams either.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I wonder if the 'cheater' comment came out of the rumor that BMW was supplying alternate cams w/ the same part # as the stock cam, to some 'select' competitors. Things that make you go hmmm....

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Geo]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
Remember folks, most of Turner's business is hyped-up street stuff. Cool upgrade for his target market.

I don't like the implications but lets not go on a witch-hunt.

Very true. I'm hoping no one is using these or any other hot cams. I do feel anyone getting caught with hot cams should receive draconian repercussions.

That said, I don't even like to see an ad like this because all it does is lead others to think "all the other kids are doing it" or perhaps that all the winners are. Very bad form for a shop to even suggest, even indirectly, the use of illegal cams.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Knestis]

I think we can hope all we want but there is no question that there are illegal cams out there. Or illegal cam timing. I'm of the opinion that it's naiave to think that even "reputable" race shops aren't selling cheater valve gear to people who want to buy it.

Check the cam key on every ITB Golf in the US and you are going to find several with offsets that don't simply bring the timing back to OE specs. If you DON'T find an offset key, check the cam: There are just too many readily available mild "street" cams out there.

Check every Sunbelt-engined Miata and you'll find some slop that can be optimized to result in better overlap. Changing this on one of these bad boys is like swapping out the cam in my 8v SOHC VW. I've seen what this trick can do for 16v GTIs.

I heard a great story this past weekend about an ITS BMW at Roebling Road this season, that "broke" and opted not to run the race after a protest was trotted out - complete with an OE 325 head assembly for comparison.

K

[Bill Miller]

Kirk,

I don't know how many cams are available for the Golfs (hydraulic lifters). I do know that there are a boatload of cams for the solid lifter cars (Rabbits, Sciroccos, etc.) And they'll work in a 1.6, 1.7, or 1.8.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[James Clay]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
That's exactly what I was thinking. I wonder if the 'cheater' comment came out of the rumor that BMW was supplying alternate cams w/ the same part # as the stock cam, to some 'select' competitors. Things that make you go hmmm....


First for the record, I didn't post this. But of course I had to know it was coming after 3 emails this morning - doesn't take long for the poop to fly... Will put it up as a joke, but of course I wouldn't be shocked to see them in an ITS car somewhere - where else would they go? Anyone else would use a stock M3 cam for half the price.

Of course this cam is out there, we all had a hissy fit last year over it and our shop offered to buy a pair to profile at the ARRC to compare with stock if the need came up. I also have stock M3 cams and will be more than happy to pack them on the trailer, but you can pull a valve cover in 15 minutes and visually see the differences that cannot be disguised if you have seen enough BMW cams.

Seriously, no point. It just makes everyone in an E36 look bad if you motor past other good cars and park it in the turns.

------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
James Clay
http://www.bimmerworld.com
Engineered BMW Performance
2003 ITS ARRC Champions
(540) 639-9648
-----------------------------------------------------------

[lateapex911]

Wow....

Someone help me. Is it legal to run M3 cams in an E36?? Are they the same??

I searched for a post I made awhile ago, but I think it must be gone. I was about this very thing.

Some guy is advertising "Undetectable cheater ITB cams" for BMWs. I emailed him for clarification, and his response to me was, "I make money...why do I care what they are used for? It's not like I'm selling guns to kids", or something along those lines.

Pretty disgusting when a company sees enough of a market to design, tool, and build a product that not only condones cheating, but creates an environment that is very tempting. He's a guy I would like to meet in person.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[RSTPerformance]

That ad does not impress me with Turner Motorsports... Makes me wonder how legal the Speed Touring cars are....

I can't believe that a company would condone cheeting... I will never suggest or recomend any company that promotes cheeters.

your thoughts?


Raymond Blethen
RST Performance Racing

[RSTPerformance]

Jake expose this person "making Money" not to get him business but to make him look bad.. this stuff is rediculouse...

Raymond

[Ron Earp]

Interesting post. I just spoke a few days ago to an experience SCCA racer that had raced in IT,Production, and other classes. I mentioned my IT prep and car and discussed some other things, among them the BMW story I'd read here regarding heads at the race and folks not staying after someone bringing a stock head into registration.

His response was a little strange, at least it seemed to me, indicating that lots of folks run M3 cams etc. and with them, and a little work, a stock 325 could make what a high dollar IT prep motor could and be much cheaper to boot. When I mentioned that sounded like cheating to me, he expressed his opinion that people have done it, do it, and it is not that irregualar and therefore, not particularily illegal.

To each his own I suppose. I'll stick with 100% stock on mine and run the car where it falls. Heck, I'm out to have a good time, meet some cool folks, and help as many as I can with what little I can bring to the table. Just hope lots of people aren't doing this sort of thing regardless of the car, seems it'd spoil the sport.



------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

[JeffYoung]

Only been out there about a season and a half, but best I can tell most don't cheat. A few do though......

[lateapex911]

OK, here you go. The power of Google. (I couldn't find my old post on here, so I entered "BMW 2002 cams" and got:


"ITB Stealth Cheater Grind for IT Racing. Stock Lift. 286 duration. Works good with stock springs.

Top-End Performance

7452 Varna Ave

N.Hollywood CA 91605

(818)764-1901 (818)764-0155 fax

e-mail: [email protected]

Their website is www.racetep.com/bmwngin.html (http://www.racetep.com/bmwngin.html) Look them up and judge for yourself.

About the E36 cams... this was Will's idea of a "comment"? Hmmm...

Looks like the shop above is more serious about selling parts no matter the ethics.

(I looked for the old email reply I got from the guy, but it was in the AOL days, long lost, I am afraid,...he was pretty testy about the whole thing as I remember!)


------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited September 17, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited September 17, 2004).]

[Ron Earp]

Interesting! The "stock lift different duration" trick is a little hard to see by just pulling the cam cover and putting a dial indicator on the cam. Lots of parts out there to tempt the BMW guys, that is for sure. Build some odd cars and you are lucky to get a stock cam that is servicable, as I am quickly finding out!

------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited September 17, 2004).]

[James Clay]

Originally posted by rlearp:
His response was a little strange, at least it seemed to me, indicating that lots of folks run M3 cams etc. and with them, and a little work, a stock 325 could make what a high dollar IT prep motor could and be much cheaper to boot. When I mentioned that sounded like cheating to me, he expressed his opinion that people have done it, do it, and it is not that irregualar and therefore, not particularily illegal.


That is pushing it - right past legal. I have had customers say the same thing. You can't guess how much a built motor is making, then cheat it up to get the same amount of power from a stock motor.

If this was a comment, honestly as well as I get along with Will, it was, well... No reason to descriminate against SE cars. They are fast because the level of competition is high and honestly the fastest cars should be running legal. I know of several M3 cams being used which is their choice, and only one isn in the SE. Also a 2.8 out there. Why does it always have to be about the SE?

------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
James Clay
http://www.bimmerworld.com
http://www.bimmerworldracing.com
Engineered BMW Performance
2003 ITS ARRC Champions
(540) 639-9648
-----------------------------------------------------------

[Seth Thomas]

I don't see why anybody would even need to use these cams in ITS. The BMW does not need to be cheated up as no car should be. In my opinion it goes against the spirit of IT racing. But we do know there are people out there that will do what it takes to try to win.

I have not raced ITS this year so I am not current on what is going on out there. I can say that last year I didn't hear of anyone doing anything of that nature. And if anybody knows the rules for the E36 BMW it is James. My ARRC winning car (which he built)last year was definitely 100% legal. Even the tech stewards afterwards told me the car was dead nuts on.

[ITSRX7]

I was just talking about why there is a "Regionality" in the 'car for the class' perception this weekend at a Regional.

In the SE, the RX-7's are the majority and are still one of the cars to have...why? I would say it has something to do with the proximity to ISC and SpeedSource, two of the best RX-7 builders in the country.

In the Mid Atlantic, Bimmers tend to dominate. Why? Bimmerworld in VA. Local access to the brains and the talent is key.

In the NE, there are no real tuners specializing in either, so what is cheaper is prominant. With the emergence of Autotechnic out of CT, there are more and more Bimmers showing up as thses guys run at track records on momentum tracks and lead year long points battles.

Long story short? The top IT 'tuners' are based largely in what most consider the Southeast, not to mention that is where the unoffical championship is held...so that is where you get your bias.

FWIW, I would never blame Bimmerworld, Turner, Speedsource, Rebello, Sunbelt, etc for any illegalities to a car. These guys are in business to make the guy with the checkbook happy. They ask for it, they get it. If that means building a car with illgal cams, so be it. It's the ENTRANT/DRIVER/OWNER who puts the illegal car on the track and knows it - and who should take the whack.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited September 17, 2004).]

[Eagle7]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
...FWIW, I would never blame Bimmerworld, Turner, Speedsource, Rebello, Sunbelt, etc for any illegalities to a car. These guys are in business to make the guy with the checkbook happy. They ask for it, they get it. If that means building a car with illgal cams, so be it. It's the ENTRANT/DRIVER/OWNER who puts the illegal car on the track and knows it - and who should take the whack.
Wait a minute. Are you saying you'd give a pass to these guys if they installed the illegal part in the guy's car?

Selling a part might be iffy - you don't know what the buyer might do with it. But if they put it in the car there's no justification in the world. These guys are part of this racing community, and if they install it, they're conspiring to cheat. Plain and simple (at least to me).

------------------
Marty Doane
ITS RX-7 #13
CenDiv WMR

[Greg Amy]

Nope, I'm with Andy on this.

Business is business, and Club Racing is decisively not. If someone is in the business of supplying aftermarket parts, it is not their concern - or ethical dilemna - if those parts are used in a manner inconsistent with SCCA rules. The onus is most decisively on the entrant and competitor to verify the legality of their vehicle (and I believe this is also codified in the regulations.)

A businessman has responsiblities to the stakeholders of his/her business, including investors and customers, and to themselves. How they choose to handle that is their business and none other.

Now, if that business were to deceive their customer into falsely believing the sold/installed parts were legal, when in fact they were not, that's a different story. The entrant still has the responsibility for legality, and if they choose to delegate that responsibility to a vendor they're still accountable, but that vendor's deception is certainly worthy of adverse reputation in the marketplace.

But, responsible to SCCA and its competitors? Hardly.

[Ron Earp]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">. I know of several M3 cams being used which is their choice, and only one isn in the SE. Also a 2.8 out there. Why does it always have to be about the SE?</font>

Are you saying that you know of a few BMWs running M cams, and only one isn't in the Southeast? That would mean a few ARE in the SE. Or, did you mean only one IS in the SE?


------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by grega:
Now, if that business were to deceive their customer into falsely believing the sold/installed parts were legal, when in fact they were not, that's a different story.

Exactly. Giving the customer what they want is one thing - and what I was explaining. Telling the customer they are legal when they are not, that is another - and something I am SURE none of the aforementioned companies would do.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[Geo]

Originally posted by grega:
A businessman has responsiblities to the stakeholders of his/her business, including investors and customers, and to themselves. How they choose to handle that is their business and none other.

True.

But I would think that good tuners/builders would not want to be associated with cheating. Perhaps I'm too Polyanna? If I were building race cars and/or race engines, I wouldn't want to knowingly build something illegal. I think it's bad form. But I may be rare in thinking that.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[m glassburner]

What about sealed engines and transmisions..I know it sounds corny...but what if you had everything ready call tech guy or gal measure check and assemble hmmmm has potential I think.....yes...no...I know it would'nt work all the time(like necessary repairs at track and such)broken seals no seals needs to be checked.It has seals good to go....oh well it's just an idea...

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by m glassburner:
What about sealed engines and transmisions..I know it sounds corny...

This is one solution to the problem. It works in Spec Racer Ford. I know, the engines are sealed at the factory, but they could be sealed at an annual inspection or elsewhere.

At some circle tracks the engines are checked and sealed before the race. Rare, but it does happen.

Gregg

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
This is one solution to the problem. It works in Spec Racer Ford. I know, the engines are sealed at the factory, but they could be sealed at an annual inspection or elsewhere.


How would engines be sealed, or better yet, what is the source for these? Unless everyone is racing basically the same type of car this would be impossible. There is no source for engines at all for JHs, TR8s, Mantas, Alfas, etc. - heck, I'm having a hard time finding basic parts (no complaints, it is part of the fun). Sounds like to me this solution would make it a spec class, and, if so we might as well just all build spec Miatas and be done with it.

Wait, I think I understand. I build it, you inspect it, then seal it with marks, wires, etc. Sorry.

------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited September 18, 2004).]

[Edwin Robinson]

Originally posted by ITSWannabe:
<a href=http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=4373>Are these legal?</a>

We might want to watch out for these at the ARRC. I know the most of the BMWs in the Southeast don't use these cams but from the ad it appears that someone at Turner knows that cams don't get checked to often and they can be used in an IT motor. How did they learn this?


I need one of these for my Neon....

I've been wondering why I can't keep up with those 325's!
;^)
~E.

[Dick Elliott]

Where have you people been for the last 30 years? Cam companys started makeing cheater cams with stock lift and duration for NHRA that were so hard to find that NHRA finaly made them legal. The adverage SCCA tech inspector will never be able to catch one. SCCA should take a page from NHRA and make the so call'd cheater cams legal as long as lift and duration are stock. Those two checks are no brain'ers.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by James Clay:
That is pushing it - right past legal. I have had customers say the same thing. You can't guess how much a built motor is making, then cheat it up to get the same amount of power from a stock motor.

If this was a comment, honestly as well as I get along with Will, it was, well... No reason to descriminate against SE cars. They are fast because the level of competition is high and honestly the fastest cars should be running legal. I know of several M3 cams being used which is their choice, and only one isn in the SE. Also a 2.8 out there. Why does it always have to be about the SE?



To me, this is one of the things that perpetuates the problem. We have people that state that they know of cheater cars, yet don't protest the people, or 'out' them. I know it gets thorny if you're not 100% certain, but geez. And, in this particular case, I would think the E36 crowd would want to do anything they could to make sure that the cars don't get slapped w/ unnecessary weight (assuming PCA's passed) because people are running cheated-up cars!

And James, there's really someone out there running a 328??? I would think this car should be tearing up the track (even more so than the E36's currently do). Did the driver figure it was cheaper to just throw in a stock 2.8 rather than go w/ a built 2.5? Does he suck that bad as a driver that he can't use the extra displacement?

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[gsbaker]

There is a variation on the sealed engine theme that is rather interesting, because it accomodates those folks who don't want to seal their engines: Offer the option of running an unsealed engine, but those who elect to do so are placed at a disadvantage.

I've seen this in a circle track series in the south (FASCAR Late Models?) and it is pretty slick. All cars in the class must build their V8s to the same engine spec. If the builder does this and has it validated by tech, tech seals the engine and he can run a 4 barrel carb. If the builder only claims to have a legal engine and refuses a tech inspection and sealing, he is allowed to run but must use a 2 barrel carb.

Anyone can be protested.

There are a lot of really fast two barrels out there. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

Gregg

[Geo]

Originally posted by rlearp:
Wait, I think I understand. I build it, you inspect it, then seal it with marks, wires, etc. Sorry.

So you need an SCCA tech inspector in your garage from the start of the engine build to the finish so they can bless your engine?


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Geo:
So you need an SCCA tech inspector in your garage from the start of the engine build to the finish so they can bless your engine?

No, the engine has an annual inspection for a seal, just like your helmet has an annual inspection for a sticker.

The inspector isn't going to perform a machine version of a rectal exam on every engine, but they have the authority to do so. As Kirk noted, random testing is a deterrent to the cheater. They must present their car and it might get poked and prodded. Now, it's only poked and prodded if someone coughs up the bond $.

Gregg

[Geo]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
No, the engine has an annual inspection for a seal, just like your helmet has an annual inspection for a sticker.

The inspector isn't going to perform a machine version of a rectal exam on every engine, but they have the authority to do so. As Kirk noted, random testing is a deterrent to the cheater. They must present their car and it might get poked and prodded. Now, it's only poked and prodded if someone coughs up the bond $.

Gregg

So what have we gained?


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Geo:
So what have we gained?




George,

If that kind of system deters cheaters, what we gain is having less cheaters out there. The fewere people that are 'doing it', the less you get the 'hey, everyone else is doing it', and it becomes less acceptable. Is it perfect? No, but it's probably better than what we have now.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
George,

If that kind of system deters cheaters, what we gain is having less cheaters out there. The fewere people that are 'doing it', the less you get the 'hey, everyone else is doing it', and it becomes less acceptable. Is it perfect? No, but it's probably better than what we have now.



If the engine is only "poked and prodded" when someone files papers, I don't see what is gained. Not trying to be difficult. Perhaps I've missed something.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Quickshoe]

George,

It keeps the honest people honest. VARA does it for certain classes. Formula Ford was one of them. At annual tech they CC'd the motor, checked compression ratio, valve lift, duration and profile. They also verified that the transaxle had an open differential. If all passed they gave you a "VARA Verified legal" sticker. If it failed you were told to get it right and resubmit for tech inspection. If you refused for cost reasons or whatever to bring it into compliance you ran in class "FFX"--no points, no awards.

Like I said this kept the honest people honest. No way (with that system) to make certain that people with legal motors/cams at annual tech didn't change something before/between races.

However, it is better than doing nothing.

Ideally it would be like they do it in national level karting.

All karts get weighed after every timed/scored session. This does absolutely nothing to slow down the run group progression. 1# too light and you are DQ'd from that session.

At the end of a scored heat, in addition to the weight, fuel is checked on the top 5 karts.

At the end of the main: Fuel and weight +

1st place gets motor cc'd, compression ratio checked, port heights and timing checked, no-go gauges in ports, exhaust and carb.

2nd place gets compression ratio, no go gauges in carb and exhaust.

3rd-5th gets compression ratio checked.

6th is in impound in case any others get DQ'd.

if someone gets DQ'd everyone moves up in the finishing order and is subjected to the more thorough inspection.

For the most part, the DQ's were mainly in the junior classes where a kid's parents would try to give the kid an advantage. A real pisser to see little Johnny's or Jane's heart break after their first win gets taken away because Daddy cheated. Must make Dad feel like a real ass.

It wouldn't work in IT racing because the variety of cars/specs to deal with. The lack of known legal parts being available for comparison is also a major problem.

So, I don't know how you 'fix' it.

I think the last thing we need is a competitor deciding what the teardown bond is going to be. Perhaps teardown bonds should be $50/hr for whatever time is specified in those 'books' the shops use.

It is easier to police in classes where everyone has very similar equipment.

------------------
Daryl DeArman



[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited September 19, 2004).]

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by Geo:
If I were building race cars and/or race engines, I wouldn't want to knowingly build something illegal. I think it's bad form. But I may be rare in thinking that.

I agree it is bad form, and unfortunately you probably are rare in your thinking.

Here is how I see it:

Big shop/teams are going to make very certain that their team/house cars are developed to the full extent of the rules. They may choose to explore and get creative in their interpretation of rules but they won't blatantly cheat.

Now, you get a shop that deals in BMW's, they need to sell to more than just the IT world to prosper. The fact that they carry parts that aren't legal in certain classes is no problem in my book. The fact that they sell them to people who race BMW's isn't a problem either. Maybe they really do have a street car that it is for.

Where I feel they cross the morality line is when they install that part, or sell to someone who has every intention of installing that part. Even if that racer isn't a contender, he is still racing/beating someone. That someone is getting cheated...even if it is for 21st place.

------------------
Daryl DeArman

[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited September 19, 2004).]

[Eagle7]

Originally posted by Quickshoe:
...Where I feel they cross the morality line is when they install that part, or sell to someone who has every intention of installing that part. Even if that racer isn't a contender, he is still racing/beating someone. That someone is getting cheated...even if it is for 21st place.
Well said.

------------------
Marty Doane
ITS RX-7 #13
CenDiv WMR

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Geo:
If the engine is only "poked and prodded" when someone files papers, I don't see what is gained. Not trying to be difficult. Perhaps I've missed something.

Poor wording on my part, George. Sorry.

I meant that, in addition to the current method of competitors filing protests, the sanctioning body also has the authority to inspect anyone's car for anything at any time.

With the present protest-only system, a cheater figures he can influence the bond value to a level so high no one would risk the $ to protest. With the sanctioning body performing inspections, all the risk is on the cheater.

Gregg

[Geo]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
Poor wording on my part, George. Sorry.

I meant that, in addition to the current method of competitors filing protests, the sanctioning body also has the authority to inspect anyone's car for anything at any time.

Bear with me Gregg. But doesn't the sanctioning body already have the authority to inspect anyone's car for anything at any time now? Just because it tends not to doesn't mean it can't.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by grega:
Nope, I'm with Andy on this.

Business is business, ...... The onus is most decisively on the entrant and competitor to verify the legality of their vehicle (and I believe this is also codified in the regulations.)

Fair enough....But in my book there are situations where morality outweighs a little profit. I have zero respect for a firm that sells or installs a product or creates situation that is known to be illegal.


What about the above example? Where a firm has designed and tooled and advertises ways to screw the sanctioning body, and every other competitor?

Thes crimes DO have victims...it's not as harmless as so may things that hurt nobody....unless the guy comes in last...or better yet, blows his motor because the ramp speed threw his valves into his pistons...but rarely does such justice come full circle.....

I am sure I am alone here, and I know that this is the naive high ground, but no firm that participates in such a manner gets anything but disgust from me.

(Look, I know that a firm can strive to build a killer engine on the edge of the rules...the legal edge, and screw up. Or can read a rule differently...and wind up on the wrong side....but firms that are installing cams into cars that are known to be illegal for the class the car will run, or illegal pistons and so on..well, that's just way over the line.)

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Geo]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
I am sure I am alone here, and I know that this is the naive high ground, but no firm that participates in such a manner gets anything but disgust from me.

Nah. I'm with you.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Eagle7]

Me too, Jake.

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Marty Doane
ITS RX-7 #13
CenDiv WMR

[ITSRX7]

While I'm with you guys in principal, I don't hold any contempt for Turner. The idea that having a part like that 'spun' in a certain way from a marketing perspective actually pushes somebody to the 'dark side' is ludicrous to me.

Cheaters are cheaters. It doesn't take a half-joking ad on a non-IT builders website to turn them into one.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited September 23, 2004).]

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Geo:
Bear with me Gregg. But doesn't the sanctioning body already have the authority to inspect anyone's car for anything at any time now? Just because it tends not to doesn't mean it can't.

I have no idea if that is the case. If so, then we have a solution to the problem.

We have a continuum. On one extreme is "We can but we don't." On the other is, "Here is your sealed motor. Don't screw with it." The question is, at what point is the cheater deterred? I don't propose to have the flawless answer, but it seems that an annual check by an inspector having significant latitude would put a stop to most cheating.

Gregg

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
While I'm with you guys in principal, I don't hold any contempt for Turner. The idea that having a part like that 'spun' in a certain way from a marketing perspective actually pushes somebody to the 'dark side' is ludicrous to me.

Cheaters are cheaters. It doesn't take a half-joking ad on a non-IT builders website to turn them into one.

AB




Perhaps I should clarify Andy...My comment about the "above example" wasn't aimed at Will Turner....it was aimed at the guy selling "ITB Stealth cheater cams". That kind of crap just isn't helping anyone. It implies that "it's OK, ALL the kids are doing it!" and while yes, cheaters are cheaters, a newbie can be convinced that if everybody is, then they are schmucks for not...

My impression of Will Turner is that he is a very sharp guy, who was either born with a silver spoon, or has crafted a very enviable situation for himself. I supect the latter, and his "cam ad" is to me an "inside joke", that I don't entirely understand because I am not "inside"...

Now if Will is knowingly building cars for ITS customers that are running illegal cams or displacement or other blatant cheats, my respect goes out the window, but I have NO reason to think that he, or our friend Mr. Clay are doing any such thing.


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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]