Philosophical Issue - Do we let newbies screw up?

[Knestis]

There's been a surge recently in the, "Hey, build whatever you want and come have fun!" kind of response when people ask about building an <insert model of car here>.

I am NOT picking on anyone in particular but am I the only one who thinks that MAYBE we do people who are just starting in this game a disservice by not explaining some of the harsher realities about this kind of decision?

Some people (hey, Jeff!) do manage against the odds and diversity is great but it seems like too many don't survive the steep part of the learning curve with their enthusiasm and credit rating intact.

Same goes for the build vs. buy question, the "How can I be a professional racer?" question, the "How much does it cost?" question, etc.

SCCA membership has hovered around 50K for ages now and I've never done a formal study obviously but I'd guess that the average club racing career is about 3 years - and that's including the outliers who last for decades. Turnover is a huge issue for this organization and it bothers me a little that new racers are pretty much left to their own devices to sometimes assure that they blow out early.

I'm not saying that I would have listened to good advice had I gotten any, but isn't it worth it to try? Even running the risk of being seen as a wet blanket or destroying someone's dream?

K

[CaptainWho]

I'm with you Kirk. We just got started, and it took a lot of work to even come close to figuring this stuff out on our own. We were lucky to hook up with some good "elmers" (Ham-speak for a mentor) early on, and they're good friends to this day. But we had to take the initiative to do it ourselves, and we hit a couple of bad eggs on the way up the ladder. It would be nice if there was an easy way for newbies and elmers to hook up in the first place. The track during an event isn't it. The potential elmers are, of course, intent on their racing and prep. This problem is common to most "volunteer run" hobbies, like ham radio. When trying to work out our path to licenses, it really did seem like the SECRET Car Club of America.

------------------
Doug "Lefty" Franklin
NutDriver Racing (http://www.nutdriver.org)

[benracin]

I think I would have to agree. This is my second year in this and it was pretty hard figuring out how, where, when to do this. Although the SCCA's website looks much better, for the fun of it a little while ago I tried to find out information on getting started and couldn't. Actually, when I was thinking about getting started I found this website. If it wasn't for this place I'd probably still be lost. I know there's lots of phone numbers out there a person can call but most people will just give up if they can't find it on the web.

Living up here in Minnesota it's a little harder since most tracks are 7 hours away. Makes it hard to get people interested. I'm 29 and would love to see more folks my age. I think the "tuner revolution" has had a little to do with this as well, but I think mostly it's a lack of information.

Most SCCA regional websites only post results and maybe a schedule. I think more of these sites need a big "how do I get started" or "ask a racer" type sections for those folks who are interested.

One thing this site is great at that, if I ever get around to making my own will for sure be on there, is helping people find resources. If a person decides they want to build a car, where can get they a cage? Where 's a good place to order tires? Know of someone who does carb work? Deciding to go racing brings up a huge list of unknowns and this site and the swell people on it have helped clear a lot of that up for me. Now that TV shows on Speed and magazines are making refrence to the SCCA, I think they, and the regions, need to help those interested get the information they are looking for.

Man it's late for a school night.

Ben.

[lateapex911]

I'm not sure I agree that we, on thsi site have been remiss in our advice to newcomers, but I will agree that the road to racing is not what it could be as the SCCA is concerned.

Having said that, I also understand the solutions are complicated and not without cost.

From the IT.com viewpoint I think that the chorus of "buy don't build" is always strong, but when some one says, "yup, I got it, I understand I will be a midpack guy and thats cool", we DO rejoice in the potential diversity.

There have been several good issuesc about getting started over the years on Sportscar, as well as our regions newsletter, but it's not the kind of monthly thing is it?

I agree whole heartedly that the SCCA should use the web site as a place to school the newbies, and old articles like that should be archived and linked.

Another "newbie" issue is the "throw 'em in with the sharks method that the SCCA has always followed. it succeeds for some, but fails for others. We really need to have more training before a new driver is given his ticket to ride. I have seen lots of incidents recently that were caused by rookie mistakes. Expensive incidents.
More training would help...but with limited dates available to run races on in the first place, we are reluctant to give these dates up for schools.

It is a tough problem, but it needs to broached, because clubs like PCA, BMWCCA, and NASA, all of which have extensive and long driver training systems, are offering marque racing, which is attractive to the new racer. But SCCA must find a way to keep the racers happy as well as safe.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[jc836]

I am an old-timer from back before the membership cards had numbers on them. Even the 1976 PCS and Rules were printed in pocket sized books (I still have those). We have come a very long way from Westport and the day of no sponsors on the side of the cars. The cost of racing has always been higher than one might like and so too the learning curve at each track-we all agree seat time is important. I agree that, in the age of instant information retreival, there should be a better way to both bring in and inform people about what we do and how to do it.

I am seeing far more of the "tuner" programming than I am comfortable with. This versus what we are about makes the situation even more difficult. Building a "tuner car" or even drifting is NOT what we are about. Can SCCA find a way to offer our sport in a TV friendly way-I think it is possible to do that. There was a series from the UK about rebuilding an E-type that went over very well here. How about building and racing (IT) a recognized car (CRX for example) in a year long documentary form? This could help those interested become active.

I have chosen to go a slightly different route with car prep in the hope that this time I can be on track more. The 'younger generation' has more disposable income so it seems. Then again do they really? Another thing is attention span for our activity. People today seem to have a threshold for staying involved that is shorter than in times past.

Just some thoughts from Grandpa.

------------------
Grandpa's toys-modded suspensions and a few other tweaks
'89 CRX Si-SCCA ITA #99
'99 Prelude=a sweet song
'03 Dodge Dakota Club Cab V8-Patriot Blue gonna tow

[Ron Earp]

Nice thread, coming from a newbie. The SCCA is daunting to a new fellow and there does not seem to be a well-laid out path to insure I do everything that I am supposed too. Thanks for the comments on build/buy. I'm comfortable with my JH because I know I have the skills to build it up, but, I also except I'll be last in line. Hopefully not forever, but at least for awhile.

I do have one request - can anyone tell me exactly what I have to do to get my license? This doesn't seem easy either and I really like the part about you must have a race car to get one, Catch-22. Jeff Y. and his partner have offered me rental of their spec Miata and I hope to be able to use it to get the job done but I need to know where to go, who to talk too, etc.

Thanks much,
Ron

[dickita15]

ron
the normal path is 2 scca drivers schools. before you do that you need the paperwork, medicl ect. some regions have a driver licence person to help or you can do all the paperwork with topeka.

kirk I understand but as jake said i think the good advise is given but logic will not overcome blind enthusiasum. we almost always tell new guys to crew or work events to learn. they are almost always too busy to partake of this learning opportunity.
dick

[JLawton]

I think a regional mentor list would be helpfull. People who are willing to take e-mails, spend time with rookies or potential racers at the track, guide them through the licensing process, steer them towards technical help.

My first year was very challenging. You don't know anybody, don't know the proper procedures or who to turn to.

This list would be posted on the regional web site, maybe broken down by class??

My thoughts........

[Ron Earp]

Dick, thanks for the info and these are just the details that can be confusing. What drivers schools are appropriate? When should I do them, if I hope to race next year? What do I need to attened?

I think I can dig this info up and am starting to do that this week. I've got a good person locally, Jeff Young, who is helping me a lot and in turn I hope to help him and his wrench on cars or do what is needed. I like helping people and lending a hand when I can.

I'd like to crew for his folks at the Enduro in October - what do I need to do that? (I'd ask Jeff but he is on a week long hiking trip).

Ron

------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

[dickita15]

ron because the school are run less often than races it will be a matter of finding ones close that fit you schedule. we are talking about scca schools run by regions not pro schools here. if you were in the northeast i could tell you what schools are well run. it is good if you can take a school at a track you will be racing at. gives you a leg up. seeing you are starting from square one car and driver maybe you could rent a car for your first school this fall and run your car in a school next spring.

I think you are in the SE. the october WDC school at summit is very good.

oh yea and go to the track every regional race you can make. work crew or just walk around and meet people. it will pay off.


kirk sorry for the thread drift.

dick(ita) cha cha cha

[CaptainWho]

Jake: I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I didn't mean that this was necesarily something that IT.com should be taking the lead on or something that they weren't doing right. The IT.com community has been a great help to us and I expect that to continue. This is something I feel national should be taking the lead on.

Ron: If you've already joined the SCCA, then look in the back of the SportsCar issues and you'll see a list of accredited "for pay" schools. If you take those schools and do reasonably well, you'll come away with a Novice permit.

The other alternative is to do a few High Performance Drivers' Ed (HPDE) events, then take the two SCCA schools. The SCCA schools will be listed on your regional or divisional schedule. In the SEDiv, for example, they're usually at Roebling early in the year, Moroso, Homestead, and VIR, late in the year.

Either way, you then have to complete two races with a "rookie X" on the stern. You'll turn in your Novice logbook at registration, and you have to get the Chief Steward or his designate to sign off that you completed satisfactorily. That mostly means that they don't know who you are when you ask for the signature, because they haven't had to talk to you and you haven't come home on a hook. :-)

Once you've got signatures for at least two races (more if you want, details in GCR) you make Xerox copies of every page of the Novice logbook for your records and send the log book and some cash to Topeka. They'll send back your Regional competition license.

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Doug "Lefty" Franklin
NutDriver Racing (http://www.nutdriver.org)

[This message has been edited by CaptainWho (edited August 31, 2004).]

[ITSRX7]

Even though I agree in principle, I have to put the onus back on the newbie. If you are entering into something like this, you have to know it ain't gonna be easy, and be ready to do yor homework. The path SHOULD be well documented but there are SOOO many steps after that, that the newbie has to be agressive in finding out info.

NER does a great job. Look here:
http://www.ner.org/RR/howto_rr.html

2 clicks on scca.com netted this:
http://www.scca.com/Club/DriversSchool.asp...30&x=030|020&~= (http://www.scca.com/Club/DriversSchool.asp?IdS=02B150-3407530&x=030|020&~=)

One more intuitive click got me here:
http://www.scca.com/Club/Index.asp?IdS=02B...30&x=030|055&~= (http://www.scca.com/Club/Index.asp?IdS=02B150-3407530&x=030|055&~=)

I little effort goes a long way.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[Edwin Robinson]

Originally posted by CaptainWho:
Jake: I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I didn't mean that this was necesarily something that IT.com should be taking the lead on or something that they weren't doing right. The IT.com community has been a great help to us and I expect that to continue. This is something I feel national should be taking the lead on.

Ron: If you've already joined the SCCA, then look in the back of the SportsCar issues and you'll see a list of accredited "for pay" schools. If you take those schools and do reasonably well, you'll come away with a Novice permit.

The other alternative is to do a few High Performance Drivers' Ed (HPDE) events, then take the two SCCA schools. The SCCA schools will be listed on your regional or divisional schedule. In the SEDiv, for example, they're usually at Roebling early in the year, Moroso, Homestead, and VIR, late in the year.

Either way, you then have to complete two races with a "rookie X" on the stern. You'll turn in your Novice logbook at registration, and you have to get the Chief Steward or his designate to sign off that you completed satisfactorily. That mostly means that they don't know who you are when you ask for the signature, because they haven't had to talk to you and you haven't come home on a hook. :-)

Once you've got signatures for at least two races (more if you want, details in GCR) you make Xerox copies of every page of the Novice logbook for your records and send the log book and some cash to Topeka. They'll send back your Regional competition license.



I think the SCCA should consider getting some traveling instructors on the payroll. Make it a stipend or something. This way- the students will be presented a clearer, more consistent message with a higher level of instruction. I'm sure there's competent racers out there that would be interested in doing this.

The professional schools seem to do a much better job of instruction and coaching. Why not charge a little more for the SCCA schools- but get the students what they are really looking for?

[timelapseracing]

There is a clear and inexpensive way to start, and the newbie that wants to race needs to know something about SCCA and what makes SCCA racing different from single marque racing with another group, or tuner drift events. Our magazines and information don't help in this regard - it's expected that someone would know what 'real' road racing is all about.

Over 15 years ago I started by going to flag races at Road Atlanta. Since then flagging has been a good route for the cost concious participant to see what cars are fast, when a driver is fast no matter what they are in, and when money is fast versus effort.

My first race car was a slow (non-gti) ITB rabbit - this was a newbie choice - not the worst but not the best. The startup costs were quite low, but the potential was low too. I built it myself, but it never had a dnf. Raced it for several years before putting it to pasture and trying to figure out the better way to go.

The risk everyone talks about is buying someone else's mistake or a car that is going to be outclassed. Again - go flag - if a car is mid-pack, you know, don't pay through the nose for it. If you want to be at the pointy end watch the cars that are being developed and understand the 'formulas' for building/buying a fast car - displacement, hp, wt, brakes, balance, etc. As everyone has said there is no replacement for seat time but that doesn't mean telling people - oh sure you can race your xyz grocery getter, and letting them believe that they can be competitive in that car.

Nobody really wants to tell someone how to beat them, and it is the potential buyer/racers responsibility to come in as an educated consumer. Again - spend time watching and learning about the racing. It's not the same as watching world challenge or DTM, and knowing that you want to race...

SCCA doesn't have a feeder program - the karting would work but only if it were part of the SCCA weekend. Look at jr dragsters, quarter midgets, or baby grands, this is where scca has not planned for the next generation of racers.

Sorry for the length - but if you are a newbie - don't start with your wallet - you will empty it quick enough - and just having a car that you think is fun and like to drive to work and back does not necessarily make it a good candidate to race. Find someone who might live within an hour of you who is racing in the class you like and go talk to them - if they build their own cars you will learn a lot - they might not tell you all their tricks but they may tell you how to avoid big mistakes and they will probably give you a good read on cars to look at - maybe give you more names.

Feel free to contact me - this is my first season back in the new car and I've had my share of snags too.

Jason
http://www.mindspring.com/~timelapseracing
MARRS ITA #21 1989 240sx
Washington DC Region F&C when not racing.

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Edwin Robinson:
...The professional schools seem to do a much better job of instruction and coaching. Why not charge a little more for the SCCA schools- but get the students what they are really looking for?

This is, IMHO, a critical point for the newbie to keep in mind. A SCCA "Drivers' School" does not teach you how to drive, it teaches you how to race.

If you know for certain that you want W2W competition, SCCA training is the way to go. However, if you just want to learn to drive a car fast, there are many other options that require fewer resources.

Prior to my first SCCA school I did BMWCCA, Skip Barber and the Porsche Driving Experience. I learned more about racing at the SCCA school, but received the least amount of driving instruction. Of course, that may have been because my instructors concluded there was no room for improvement, but I doubt it. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

I too believe SCCA is missing the marketing boat by not offering a HPDE product.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[Racerlinn]

As a "noob" myself, a few thoughts. Yes, it is certainly a difficult process, but I don't think it should be easy either. A serious individual will put a bit of research into what they are doing. This is the type of person (i.m.o.) that you want next to you on the track. I am preparing for my first try at club racing next spring at the tender age of 38, after having autocrossed and done lapping events for the last 7 years, after having worked races locally for the last 4 years, after having served on my Regions BoD for the last 4 years, and even including a stint as an R.E.
All this, and I even still find some things that are difficult. Nature of the beast. That's why I enjoy this forum, to be able to see and hear what others think.
As far as driver training, it can be very difficult and expensive to get the opportunity to put that rookie "X" on the car (after spending all the $$ to just prep the car!). I'm in CenDiv, but I'll be traveling to St. Louis Region for their double-school weekend next spring as it is the closest opportunity to get 2 schools in on one weekend.

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Steve
'92 ITS(A?) Sentra SE-R
www.indyscca.org
http://www.indyscca.org/photos/04-27-03/P1/thumbnails/04_27_03b.jpg

[Tristan Smith]

Kirk, you estimate that three years is the average club racer life span, and that turn over is high in SCCA, but I wonder if that is any different than most hobbies. Sure, racing takes a lot more time and money than many hobbies out there. But, I know many people who take up (insert hobby here) only to walk away from it after a few years because of time restraints and life changing events. The question is what can SCCA really do to stop that trend? It seems like those who race long term do so because they choose to overcome the obstacles that are thrown their way. Just a thought.


------------------
Tristan Smith
Buffalo's Southwest Cafe
ITA Nissan 240sx #56

[racer_tim]

The problem I have is that the other "schools" may teach car control, the line, and the flags, but they don't do ANYTHING for the procedures of SCCA racing.

Pre-registration, tech, grid, impound, etc.

We see new racers who don't have a clue about what to do with the vehicle log book once they get through registration, or where the tech sticker goes, etc.

If we want to get new blood into SCCA, we need to come with a standard "mentoring" program, not only a "drivers school" that makes the learning process a little easier.




------------------
Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[Geo]

I'm not sure how much easier we can make it.

I DO absolutely 100% believe that we do need to offer more schools or somehow redefine the licensing process. For me, I was 100% committed (or was someone trying to get me committeed, I can't remember) to going racing so I did what I needed. But, we also had two schools a few months apart. Now our region runs one double school. That makes it very hard to get a license if you aren't ready for that school. Do we want to make people wait another year to get their license? That seems counter productive.

As for help in choosing a car, that is a mine field nobody in any official or semi-official capacity can or should be involved in. Sure some discussions can and should be had, but the choice belongs to the new car owner. The most that should happen in this area is perhaps pointing someone to where they can find their region's results. The new car onwer is going to have to figure it out for themselves. And not everyone goes into this with the goal of winning.

Reading the rules is yet another issue the newbie needs to deal with. So many people make the rulebook out to be a bad thing. We should instead teach people to embrace it. The rule book is your friend. It tells you everything you can do to your car. Some areas are grey and if the car owner/builder isn't sure they should take the initiative to get a ruling from Topeka. This is just the way racing is and the newbie racer needs to deal with it. This is a good place for people to ask questions before going to Topeka. They could also go to races and talk with people there. If there is any question, Topeka is for sure the place to go. So and so said doesn't cut it. Pretty simple.

Build vs buy is also a mine field. People do what they do for their own reasons. I'm talking with someone right now who is entertaining going IT racing with a 944. On the surface, all he needs to do to go racing is throw in a bolt-in cage and some safety gear. Will he be competitive? Almost certainly not. But he can get out there and try it. And with a bolt-in cage, if he doesn't like it, he can pull it out and be done with racing. If he likes it, then he can rip out the interior, redo the suspension, rebuild the engine with a proper IT build, etc. Bottom line is he could go racing for less than $1,500 plus consumables (tires, brakes, etc.). I'm the other end of the spectrum. This is my first race car (I was lucky enough to have use of another for a few years) and I don't want a car that someone else built. I want to build it the way I think is proper. Others would rather just buy something someone else made and either hope for the best (better luck with more research of course) or redo it over time, much like my friend would build his 944. Who is to say what is right? Who is to say what is cheaper? Let's say I bought a bargain IT car. By the time I gone replacing stuff, I doubt I'd have saved money.

The bottom line is, other than the licesnsing process itself, I'm not sure there is a whole lot more we can do for people. Regional mentors would be nice, but that's a dangerous position as well. We're human beings and advice is going to usually be jaded by our own ideas.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by racer_tim:
The problem I have is that the other "schools" may teach car control, the line, and the flags, but they don't do ANYTHING for the procedures of SCCA racing.

Pre-registration, tech, grid, impound, etc.

We see new racers who don't have a clue about what to do with the vehicle log book once they get through registration, or where the tech sticker goes, etc.


You know, this is really an excellent observation. I think the first couple of hours of a school should include a tech seminar. Regardless of the state of your logbook, you should have to go through a full tech and have the techs explain what is what. I've been through tech more than I should for various reasons and it's still a process that is a bit daunting.

As a club we should take any mystery out of tech for the new club racer. It would also be a chance for the new racer to get to know some of the tech folks. I know the time I've talked with them when I wasn't running a car through was a much easier conversation. I think we as club racers don't fully appreciate the position they are in as well. So, a more friendly atmosphere for more relaxed conversation by doing a tech seminar in each school could do wonders IMHO.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Mike Spencer]

Originally posted by rlearp:
...I do have one request - can anyone tell me exactly what I have to do to get my license? This doesn't seem easy either and I really like the part about you must have a race car to get one, Catch-22. Jeff Y. and his partner have offered me rental of their spec Miata and I hope to be able to use it to get the job done but I need to know where to go, who to talk too, etc....

Ron,

LOTS of great information in this thread so far. Since you're in my neck of the woods I would be happy to supply you with some (local) names and suggestions.

e-mail me at [email protected]

FWIW, I saw the Summit school coming up. However, you DO need two. I don't really want to pull all the way down to Florida, so I am planning on attending the double school at Roebling Road in February. I know a couple of guys who have gone there in the past as well as a couple more who instruct. All recommend it highly.

Yeah, it sucks having the car sit in the garage for the next 5 months, but those are the rules we play by. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

------------------
Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)

[rjohnson999]

There's already an informal way to do this and one that should be encouraged more actively by the club and local regions and exploited by competitors. There are few reasons to do an annual tech at the track. Most can and should be done in the comfort and convenience of a competitors or tech inspectors garage of an evening or off weekend.


Originally posted by Geo:
You know, this is really an excellent observation. I think the first couple of hours of a school should include a tech seminar. Regardless of the state of your logbook, you should have to go through a full tech and have the techs explain what is what. I've been through tech more than I should for various reasons and it's still a process that is a bit daunting.

As a club we should take any mystery out of tech for the new club racer. It would also be a chance for the new racer to get to know some of the tech folks. I know the time I've talked with them when I wasn't running a car through was a much easier conversation. I think we as club racers don't fully appreciate the position they are in as well. So, a more friendly atmosphere for more relaxed conversation by doing a tech seminar in each school could do wonders IMHO.

[mustanghammer]

I too believe SCCA is missing the marketing boat by not offering a HPDE product

*******

Gregg and others,

The Kansas City/Kansas Regions have been conducting HPCCC driver's schools since they were allowed by the SCCA. Since that time we have pulled many club racers out of their street cars and into a racecar. I am included in this number and had the "hook" set at a Solo I in 1997.

HPCCC events are always ran in conjunction with our Double Regional/School Regional events at Heartland Park. Not only do these events give new drivers the "racing bug" they also offset the cost of these events. In addition to the action on the track we usually have a Solo II in the paddock at the same time. This Three Ring circus approach creates unity between the Racer and Solo II crowd and it markets what the SCCA can offer to the newby.

The Cost of Racing.......well that is something any would be driver needs to investigate and understand going in. For my part if was useful to understand that I didn't need to club race a High HP Mustang like the one that I was autocrossing to have a great time. Frankly, I spent more money autocrossing a C Prepared Mustang ($1000.00 tire bills!) than I do racing my IT7 car.

Scott




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Scott Peterson
KC Region
IT7 #17

[dickita15]

Originally posted by Edwin Robinson:
I think the SCCA should consider getting some traveling instructors on the payroll.
Edwin with all do respect if you feel that the quality of instructors is poor (and sometimes it is) you should volunteer, assuming you have a national licence.
dick patullo

[racer_tim]

@ Thunderhill, we have what are called "street schools" that are instructed by regular SCCA drivers. Classroom instruction, as well as on-track sessions (with instructor) allow anybody with a vehicle to get some advanced instruction. First step in "planting the hook"

http://www.thunderhill.com/school.html



------------------
Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Edwin Robinson:
I think the SCCA should consider getting some traveling instructors on the payroll.


Originally posted by dickita15:
Edwin with all do respect if you feel that the quality of instructors is poor (and sometimes it is) you should volunteer, assuming you have a national licence.
dick patullo

Dick,

I believe the reference is to quantity rather than quality. The quality of all the SCCA instruction I have received has been high, but at an SCCA school the instructor is not in the car--at least I've never seen one in a tin top, and I've always been in a single-seat SRF, so I may be wrong. Under this scenario (no ride-along instructor in SCCA) I am absolutely, positively convinced that SCCA is not the place to learn to drive. Sure, one can learn to drive, but not very efficiently; the Club is, however a great place to learn to race.

I've had excellent SCCA instructors (nationally ranked top 10) tell me after a 30 minute session that I am, say, apexing too late in turn five. That's 30 minutes down the drain. On the other hand, if I'm doing a HPDE/Marque thing like the Porsche school, the instructor (your average, every-day Le Mans winner) is next to me giving me instant feedback at every corner. After one lap I know exactly what I should be doing.

Then again, with me behind the wheel one lap will take about 30 minutes, so I guess it all washes out in the end. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[edit: embedded quotes]

[This message has been edited by gsbaker (edited August 31, 2004).]

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by racer_tim:
@ Thunderhill, we have what are called "street schools" that are instructed by regular SCCA drivers. Classroom instruction, as well as on-track sessions (with instructor) allow anybody with a vehicle to get some advanced instruction. First step in "planting the hook"

That's a great idea.

An even more casual situation set my "hook." I tagged along with a friend to a PCA school. It was interesting, but as an observer it was bordering on boring. Then, during a break, his instructor asked me, "Want a ride?"

I figured, why not? What's this grey-haired old geezer with his '79 911 going to do? Scare me?

Yep. Absopositivelylutely.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[timelapseracing]

I believe Kirk's orginal question is getting lost. It's not how do we make the driving instruction better, or plant the hook, but once someone has moved into the "I want to race" mindset - giving them the tools to make good decisions that will allow them to continue.

The unspoken truth is:
1. most new racers know enough to know that someone knows more than they do.
2. many know enough to find forums like this and/or network to get a leg up on finding out the hard stuff.
3. at a certain point people will stop helping you.

Separate the truly uninformed questions like what should I race from the ones where someone is looking for setup information. The ones in the former category (what should I race, what should I take to driver school, other 'mine field' questions) are the ones where tools for making decisions should be offered to new folks.

Sports car and magazines like Grassroots have at times offered low buck race car articles, but those don't usually help people understand why an particular car in ITA may not be the way to go. That kind of stuff is obviously what is going into the discussions on the site about PCA's - It's the kind of thing that may be good as a racing primer for new enthusiats. That said, it's all right here on Jake's list and if you build/buy a car without reading it and the GCR - it's your own fault.

------------------
1989 ITA 240sx - #21 MARRS Series
Currently with a large hole where the #2 rod left the block.

I fixed the hole.... http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif


[This message has been edited by timelapseracing (edited August 31, 2004).]

[Edwin Robinson]

Originally posted by dickita15:

Originally posted by Edwin Robinson:
I think the SCCA should consider getting some traveling instructors on the payroll.
Edwin with all do respect if you feel that the quality of instructors is poor (and sometimes it is) you should volunteer, assuming you have a national licence.
dick patullo




I do. (on both accounts)
Sometimes time does not permit.

You may have inferred that I said the instruction was poor- I did not say that. While I'm sure most all instructors do, 'the best they can' - the program is, in my opinion, lacking in terms of:
1) The qualifications necessary for being an instructor.
2) A defined 'set-of-bases' the instructor should cover with the student.
3) A quantitative/qualitative approach to rating the student.

I sure Skip Barber, Jim Russell, et al.. have a policy and program in place for the above issues. I think SCCA students would benefit from something similar. Lastly, I think the instructors (whomever they are) should also be compensated in some form for their time. This would give a real incentive for those instructors to be involved- moreso than just a 'pat on the back'.

And no- I'm not volunteering to spearhead that operation. ;^)

[greg_umbay]

Originally posted by racer_tim:
@ Thunderhill, we have what are called "street schools" that are instructed by regular SCCA drivers. Classroom instruction, as well as on-track sessions (with instructor) allow anybody with a vehicle to get some advanced instruction. First step in "planting the hook"

http://www.thunderhill.com/school.html




Yep, I am a former victim, err uhh, graduate. I also try and give back to the program, as an instructor.

It was a big help that I connected with a longtime club racer who guided me when I had questions. It was also a big help that I found this site. In club racing there are people who are willing to help and there are people who want to help a newbie.

[CaptainWho]

One of the biggest problems we had was getting seat time in our track cars before having a competition license. Except for one group, Turn One Motorsports at Kershaw, everyone else we talked to was adamant that we would have to use our street cars until we had comp licenses. Even though we'd installed instructor seats and harnesses every bit as good as our driver kit. We ran one DE in our street cars before being sure we wanted to do this. We weren't about to put cars we owed that much money on back on the track, especially in uncontrolled passing situations, until we had a lot more seat time. So we went to Kershaw repeatedly, in our track cars, and we'll keep going back. Those are some really helpful folks down there. If you go, tell Joe Hooker that The Nuts say 'Hi'.

------------------
Doug "Lefty" Franklin
NutDriver Racing (http://www.nutdriver.org)

[Geo]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
There's already an informal way to do this and one that should be encouraged more actively by the club and local regions and exploited by competitors. There are few reasons to do an annual tech at the track. Most can and should be done in the comfort and convenience of a competitors or tech inspectors garage of an evening or off weekend.



I agree and that is how I'm going to have my car tech'd. For one thing, I don't want my tech to feel under pressure. When under pressure the safe thing to do with something you question is to say no.

However, most newbies don't know or appreciate this. It should be part of the introduction to tech. Also, as I said, regardless of the status of the log book, ALL cars should have to go through just so everyone can get an idea of what to expect and what the process is IMHO.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Edwin Robinson:

- the program is, in my opinion, lacking in terms of:
1) The qualifications necessary for being an instructor.
2) A defined 'set-of-bases' the instructor should cover with the student.
3) A quantitative/qualitative approach to rating the student.




I have volunteered to instruct for a number of regions, and I would say that your comments may hold water in some instances, but not others. I am sure SCCA does have recommendations to the Region, but each Region is probably free, to some degree, to run and instruct as they see fit, due to local conditions...such as...

Manpower- The pool of instructors is mostly...us. How many of us have spare time? I thought so, acting as an instructor means sacrifices elsewhere.
and ....
Tracktime- The Club has minimum standards for actual on track time the student serves, and at some tracks it is very tight to meet the requirements.

I do agree that there is a real need to create a curriculum that is standardized and that all instructors are schooled in before their sessions with students. It needn't be at the track, or require an early arrival either; web based sites can provide an source for instuctors to consult.

One common theme that came up at grading time was "Do you want to race with this student?" That is an excellent soul searcher. As racers we know what it takes to get there...but we also know what we want, (and don't want) on the track. A decision that is never taken lightly, and thankfully I have seen students that just weren't ready be told to try again. Others were borderline and passed.

I do think that the SCCA made a decision, (or perhaps just morphed the organization into this position) a long time ago to do what it does best, and that is sanction races. Lately I have seen kinks in the armor though, in the form of incidents involving rookies, making "rookie" mistakes. Expensive ones for other competitors as well.

The easy solution to this is more track time...but the real world doesn't support that...track time is tough to come by, and expensive..not just financially but from a Regions resources standpoint (workers!).
So the solution needs to be twofold- One, students need to be intensely educated in their school experience. I think that the rulebook needs better implementation, and we should go so far as having a written test on racing protocols such as passing, spinning, and driving theory as well as the SCCA procedural stuff. I know the GCR used to be tested...but I haven't seen that in awhile..it too needs to return.
Second...the granting of a license needs to be tightened up. The lack of available schools means the instructor may have a borderline students "best " interests in mind and try to save him a long summer of no racing by passing him, but thats the wrong move and the system needs to have a series of checks and balances to avoid that.

When a student "graduates" he should know, without a doubt, where the tech sticker goes, that you don't release the brakes as you are spinning on the banking, and that tech is not in charge od legal scrutineering, among a million others.

Is it too much for resources available?


------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Mike Spencer]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
...The easy solution to this is more track time...but the real world doesn't support that...track time is tough to come by, and expensive..not just financially but from a Regions resources standpoint (workers!)...

...When a student "graduates" he should know, without a doubt, where the tech sticker goes, that you don't release the brakes as you are spinning on the banking, and that tech is not in charge od legal scrutineering, among a million others.

Jake,

As someone who is a few months away from his first school, I hope these questions/comments are taken in the right "light".

Additional track time sounds like a no-brainer. However, besides the issues you mentioned does running around on a track with a lot of other "newbies" teach you what you really need to know? It seems to me that whenever you finally get on-track with experienced racers, it's going to be different. I'm not trying to minimize the need for seat time. Just wondering if there is a point of diminishing returns....

To continue along the same line of thought, all the "classroom theory" is great. I really want to know what I'm supposed to do in different circumstances I will probably end up in. But ultimately, am I REALLY going to execute when the time comes? I hope so. But the best way to learn what to do when you spin is... well, to spin.

I'll let you (everyone) know what I think after I get through school. And I'm not saying more instruction wouldn't be better. I just don't (theoretically) believe that it's THE answer. It's just better. Where ever I spin for the first time, be it at SCCA school, at a school like Panoz or in a real race, THAT will be where I really learn the most.

Again, these are expectations. I have no real-world experience yet. Am I close??????

------------------
Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Mike Spencer:

Additional track time sounds like a no-brainer. However, besides the issues you mentioned does running around on a track with a lot of other "newbies" teach you what you really need to know? It seems to me that whenever you finally get on-track with experienced racers, it's going to be different. I'm not trying to minimize the need for seat time. Just wondering if there is a point of diminishing returns....


Mike,
I think you'll find that at a school, just like in a regional race, there will be people with varying degrees of skill - some rank beginners, some taking their second or third school, some renewing their licenses, and some with just natural talent. (Notwithstanding school racers are normally slower than licensed racers.) The point is part of the "education" is learning to deal with others' mistakes (and their strong points) and dealing with your own. So seat time with other cars on the track at speed in a mix of levels of skill is most assuredly teaching you "what you need to know." It's all part of the learning process. Participation breeds confidence and ability. I'm sure you will take a great deal from the experience.
GRJ

[dickita15]

there are some interesting points brought out by this thread direction.

we use on track instructors in there own race cars to put students is some of the situations that would be otherwise be lacking driving around with other students. If i have a student who is driving ok but avoiding traffic i send an on track guy to test him.

there is much to teach about racing so as stated less time is spent on know how to drive the line. i am not saying that driving the line is not important and help is given, but as others have said there are good many good places to work on that.

the best way to improve programs is at a local level. more good work is done by regions than national. this is true of everything we think should be done better, publicity, recruiting, training ect..

that being said there is a commitee that was formed last winter on a national level to stadardize the scca school experience. I spoke to some members back in the spring when we were running our schools but have not heard any updayes on their work lately.

dick patullo
ner scca

[Geo]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Second...the granting of a license needs to be tightened up. The lack of available schools means the instructor may have a borderline students "best " interests in mind and try to save him a long summer of no racing by passing him, but thats the wrong move and the system needs to have a series of checks and balances to avoid that.

While I agree standards should not be loosened, I feel very strongly that the SCCA needs to offer more schools. Perhaps it could be structured a bit differently to accomodate this? I don't know.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[rjohnson999]

How? From an event organization stand point, there is no time. From the point of view of the economics of running events, there is no opportunity. These two things interact to create the programs we have today because the SCCA hasn't been the only game in town for tracks for a long time.

Once upon a time it was possible to require that any region and track holding a national had to hold a driver's school. It was necessary to get a driver's school entry in as early as possible or you ran the risk of not making the cut off. Now we're lucky if we break even on schools, regions are grouping together to reduce economic risk and most drivers expect to get waived on their second school. If every region holding a national had to host a driver's school, they would loose large sums of money.

The NASA/MC/EMRA/marque club model would require wholesale restructuring of the entire class set up and regional and national programs. In order to serve new members we would be short changing those already invested in the programs.

Getting additional track dates runs into the problem of both cost and finding enough workers to staff even more events. That once-upon-a-time era also had fewer professional races to staff at the same tracks, no vintage racing and marque clubs were considered beneath contempt. Today, vintange and marque club events pay higher track rental fees than many SCCA regions at the same track in part because the regions have made deals with the tracks to staff these events in return for reduced rentals or other perks.

The underlying economics of renting race tracks to conduct events has changed radically over the past three decades. Unless and until that is addressed there will not be an opportunity to change SCCA programs. The only alternative would be to sacrifice existing programs to pursue the "promise" of a mythical marketing defined future.


Originally posted by Geo:
While I agree standards should not be loosened, I feel very strongly that the SCCA needs to offer more schools. Perhaps it could be structured a bit differently to accomodate this? I don't know.

[Tom Donnelly]

I think that the SCCA is just where it needs to be as far as schools. The drivers schools are enough to get you started without pulling too much from your wallet. I've been thru independent professional (ie expensive) schooling and SCCA schools. Jones hit the nail on the head. At your first race, there will be all kinds of drivers. Good, bad and ugly. With different experience levels, aptitude and attitude. Treat each race as a learning experience, don't over estimate your abilities and just get track time. If you want more schools, get more schools, whatever your comfort level is.

But just remember that, you are going to wreck eventually, its just a matter of time.

And if you can't afford to replace it, you can't afford to race it.

And you shouldn't try to win at turn one of the first lap.

Tom

[badal]

As Kirk points out, the noobies have a lot of questions, and they are frequently the same.
And as Andy B points out, there is info out there, if you know where to look.

So I offer the following suggestions:

1)Have a FAQ section on Improvedtouring.com. Maybe even save some threads like this one there.

2) Have some links on the main page to worthwhile information. Like Andy's links.

3) Compile a list of people willing to act as mentors.

------------------
"Bad" Al Bell
ITC #3 Datsun 510
DC Region MARRS Series

[RSTPerformance]

I don't have time right now to read what this thread is really about, but I wanted to make a comment only related to the title of this thread...

How can any newbie screw up when EVERYONE running in IT is giving the advice that we are racing for FUN. Race something you have an interest in and will be fun for you. Winning or running up front is a bonus (I am happy to have) not the goal. having fun with new or old friends is the goal.

Raymond "busy" Blethen
RST Performance Racing

[Geo]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
How?....

As I said, I don't have the answer. At least I'm willing to address the question. I've talked with a number of people who have trouble finding schools. In my region, if you miss the double school, you miss the season. Is that making the SCCA more user friendly? As I said, perhaps the way things are structured needs to be changed?


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[rjohnson999]

Structured by whom? Individual regions have much more latitude in how they structure their programs than Topeka does. There are already huge differences from region to region and division to division. There's nothing stopping your region from changing its programs now.


Originally posted by Geo:
As I said, I don't have the answer. At least I'm willing to address the question. I've talked with a number of people who have trouble finding schools. In my region, if you miss the double school, you miss the season. Is that making the SCCA more user friendly? As I said, perhaps the way things are structured needs to be changed?

[Knestis]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
... How can any newbie screw up when EVERYONE running in IT is giving the advice that we are racing for FUN. ? ...

Sorry, what?

First - I hear that almost nowhere. Second, even where I DO hear it, people's actions speak WAY louder than their words. Maybe the NE just doesn't have the number of wound-too-tight club racers that other places do.

K

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
If every region holding a national had to host a driver's school, they would loose large sums of money. ......
and...... In order to serve new members we would be short changing those already invested in the programs.

Perhaps....But you must remember...the more succesful regions market and push their "message". Also, if you don't want to have events that lose money, should those regions stop hosting Nationals when they are in danger of not breaking even??
It isn't uncommon for a National to lose a bit of money.

Smart regions may see the need to combine with another region for better economic stability...the regions that continue to trod down the same path will wither. What about a Region turning a two day Regional into a one day regional and a one day school? Offer drivers an incentive (if they are qualified) to show up on the first day and help instruct. Perhaps barter some test day passes form the track in the yearly negotiations and offer those on a first come first served basis as a first time prize for new instructors? Creative solutions ARE out there...

New blood IS important, but I know racers who aren't racing because they have been bitten by the rookie making a rookie mistake too often, and they are out of $.

So, keep in mind that NOT having properly educated drivers CAN affect ongoing programs, even if NO changes are made!

As I said in my earlier post, I know full well of the difficulty in hosting schools, and that they come at the expense of the regions resources. I think that as a first step, we need to tighten our standard while maintaining the same structure. I think we can do better with the current resources.



Today, vintange and marque club events pay higher track rental fees than many SCCA regions at the same track in part because the regions have made deals with the tracks to staff these events in return for reduced rentals or other perks.


You have touched on what is possibly SCCAs greatest strength...its worker structure. We must strenthen this...it is the making or breaking of the club racing program. That of course includes instructors...




The only alternative would be to sacrifice existing programs to pursue the "promise" of a mythical marketing defined future.



I disagree here...we CAN strenghten our current programs and structure to acheive dramatically better results. Having more schools is the easy way out, but I do agree it is a luxury we are hard pressed to afford at this time.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited September 01, 2004).]

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Tom Donnelly:
I think that the SCCA is just where it needs to be as far as schools. The drivers schools are enough to get you started without pulling too much from your wallet. I've been thru independent professional (ie expensive) schooling and SCCA schools. Jones hit the nail on the head. At your first race, there will be all kinds of drivers. Good, bad and ugly. With different experience levels, aptitude and attitude. Treat each race as a learning experience, don't over estimate your abilities and just get track time. If you want more schools, get more schools, whatever your comfort level is.

But just remember that, you are going to wreck eventually, its just a matter of time.

And if you can't afford to replace it, you can't afford to race it.

And you shouldn't try to win at turn one of the first lap.

Tom

Tom, I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree, because I don't thnk ANY organization can EVER consider itself or its programs to be "just where it needs to be"..there is always room for improvement.

A lot of clubs actually, (PCA, BMWCCA, as examples) are much stricter and more demanding in their licensing standards, for what is obstensibly 'easier' racing. I would say that the SCCA is certainly not in any danger of being considered "too demanding"!

Frankly, I would prefer NOT to race with guys who got enough education to "Get them started"...

Of course I understand that the potential for ugly stuff exists all the time...but proper training and education CAN reduce not only the frequency but the severity of the event that you consider a sure eventuality.

To not attempt to improve the driver population as a whole (the single best place is at the drivers introduction to the racing environment) is a folly, an it will bite us all sooner rather than later.


------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Geo]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
So, keep in mind that NOT having properly educated drivers CAN affect ongoing programs, even if NO changes are made!

And not creating sufficient opportunities for newcomers to get their license can also hurt current programs. How big an issue is this? It's very hard to quantify. But I believe it's a bigger problem than we think, especially when you can get your license in other clubs throughout the year.


Originally posted by lateapex911:
I disagree here...we CAN strenghten our current programs and structure to acheive dramatically better results. Having more schools is the easy way out, but I do agree it is a luxury we are hard pressed to afford at this time.


More schools is not necessarily an easy way out. For one thing, it may become a matter of survival. The SCCA is facing a major challenge from NASA and other groups. If the SCCA keeps making it harder to get a license (I'm not talking standards, I'm talking opportunities), we will lose newcomers to these other groups.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[itmanta]

When considering Kirk's opening comments we should remember that club racers come from many different backgrounds. You have the pit crew member that has learned the ropes and now wants to race. You have the rich kid. you have the returning racer that is now more secure financially. You have the young adult that likes to build cars and spends every last dime to race. I could go on and on. The fact is that each idividual is able to compete at different levels of preparedness. I think it has always been that way and always will. The clubs driving school and novice program has to be able to guide each type of person to be a good and safe competitor. No one says it will be easy as a matter of fact it should be a weeding process.

I am actually in the middle of my second novice program now with the ICSCC. My first round was back in the late 80'S with the SCCA. I raced about four years until I succumbed to responsibilities. Now I am able to reenter racing as a driver with a much better financial base. The ICSCC does the novice program different than the SCCA. The novices have their own class and run only on Saturday so that they can meet their volunteer requirements on Sundays. You need to complete three novice races successfully and complete six half days of worker time to get your area licence and race on sundays with your class and normal run group. During the novice races you are scrutinized by senior drivers that man the turns. Not a bad system.

Over all there are a lot of good and valid comments in this thread. If any good is to come of it club racers and their friends have to volunteer, volunteer, volunteer. The only other option is a club fund to pay and therefore attract workers. I would suggest that volunteering has been the backbone of club racing for years and is our ethical way to go.



------------------
Peter Linssen
ITE Volvo 740 Turbo
ITB Opel Manta
www.mvpvolvo.com
Oregon Region

[lateapex911]

Mike, somehow I missed your post earlier. And now I find myself wakened by a disturbance outside, and can't sleep...where do I go? IT.com...of course! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/rolleyes.gif

Actually it segues nicley with Peters commnets about how the ICSCC does it.

I DO think more track time (with other newbies) is beneficial, and I don't think the point of diminishing return is so early. If you are running against other newbies, it's natural that your indimidation level is lower than it would be when the big boys come storming thru. And man, you think you're pretty quick, then *poof* that bubble is burst in the first few seconds of your first practice with the big boys, and it's REALLY hammered home in your first race when they come to lap you. If you have had more time at lower pressure levels, you will have:

1- Lerned the track really well.
2- Learned your car very well
3- Been able to learn, and find speed at a comfortable pace, comparing to like minded guys.
4-Pushed the limits, and maybe even exceeded them
5-Maybe even spun, in an environment that is to some degree "comfortable" for you, and in doing so, you're more likely to apply what your instructor told you 20 minutes ago...both feet in! The very act of spinning and putting both feet in encodes your brain and body to do it the same way the next time a spin occurs. This physical encoding is used by many atheletes to improve their "automatic reflexes".

There are a lot of things to learn and to think about when you begin race car driving, and the more that can be eliminated, the more concentration can be spent on the important part! Practice makes automatic reflexes, and reduces the mind load.

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited September 02, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited September 02, 2004).]

[Tom Donnelly]

Jake,

The point where we disagree isn't about the improving of the SCCA. My point is that the sooner a new driver gets confronted with the shock that he is NOT as fast as he thinks he is (due mostly to a lack of seat time), the better off he will be.

That's the most important lesson I think can be learned. And no matter how much that's drummed in at any school, not one damn one of us believed it until we actually got PASSED by someone in our first race. If the SCCA can come up with a school that teaches right off that "you're not as good as you think you are and you really need to improve alot", then that would help more than anything.

Its hard to teach that to a bunch of overly confident race car drivers because over confidence is what put us on the track in the first place.

Just my opinion from my own experiences.

And no matter what, you will wreck a car if you are in this long enough. Parts break, people make mistakes. Thats important for budgetary and safety reasons. I'm not saying that we play bumper cars or that training won't possibly tone down an accident. I'm just saying that a new driver should look at his nice new car and realize its going to get banged up due to mistakes. And make that part of the decision process on buy vs. build and what class to run based on budget.

Tom

[Mike Spencer]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
...The very act of spinning and putting both feet in encodes your brain and body to do it the same way the next time a spin occurs. This physical encoding is used by many atheletes to improve their "automatic reflexes".

BINGO!

It's amazing how well some people's minds work at 5 o'clock in the morning! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

------------------
Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)

[JeffYoung]

Great thread. Back from the trail, and a couple of quick thoughts:

a. If you have limited resources, or if you absolutely have to run up front (which is highly unlikely your first year or two anyway), buy a built, proven, known frontrunner.

b. If you love a particular make or model, are willing to deal with more frustration than your buddies racing RX7s or CRXs, and are realistic about your budget and your competiveness, race what you love.

I choose (B) because I love old Triumphs and felt like I could make the 8 run at least as good as the "older" ITS cars. It's been a struggle at times, and Tristan is right -- to race, you have to be willing to overcome financial and logistical hurdles for your hobby that are far harder than many you overcome at work.

Racing doesn't just "happen." You put lots of work in and you do, when everything comes together, get lots of satisfaction out.

On the licensing process, Ron, you should do the SCCA school at Roebling in February. It is a double, and you will get your license at the end (if you complete it).

That said, I found the SCCA school to basically be an endurance test: can you show up with teh proper paperwork and make your car run for three days without trouble?

You don't learn nearly as much about going fast as you do at an HPDE, and you really only learn flags and starts about racing (if that).

My advice is do a year or so of HPDEs to learn car control etc., then build a car and go to SCCA school.

I didn't find the licensing process to be all that complicated. An hour or so with the website and the GCR and I had everything in on time.

Jeff

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by JeffYoung:
...My advice is do a year or so of HPDEs to learn car control etc., then build a car and go to SCCA school.

Jeff

Jeff,

I agree, and can only offer one additional observation: To avoid the possibility that the newbie spends resources only to discover that the W2W stuff is not their cup of tea, they should consider renting a car for the school.

I know, I know, this sounds like the wrong way to go for those who can't wait to build their very own race car and hit the track, but there is plenty of time to buy/build after one decides this is the game they want to play.

Gregg

[Tom Donnelly]

Car rental is a good idea if you need to make sure. It seems like alot of money for one race but a one race rental really isn't much more than what is spent per race when you own a car. Entry fee, tires, gas (tow vehicle and race car), broken stuff etc.

If you can afford it and you are just starting out and set on building, a rental or two will help with the build. You get to work with a team that knows what its doing and you can learn alot from that. Plus they worry about the towing, sandwiches and stuff.

I'd recommend buy vs build. And start with ITC or ITB. And work up to a faster car. if I had to start over, I'd go with ITC/ITB and then maybe ITS or ITA. Datsun 510's, VW's, Hondas and BMW's. I probably go with the Honda since it seems like once you get them set up, you can sit in the pits and read a book between sessions. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

Tom

[Knestis]

THAT'S the kind of information that newbies need, even if they want to ignore it. We don't do people any favors by perpetuating myths or leaving them making bad assumptions.

An enthusiastic guy I used to race with (ex-RE for our region) used to tell people they could "build an IT car just like his for $3000, and get out on the track." When it came time to sell his, guess what he asked for it?

Something significantly greater than $3000.

K

[JeffYoung]

Let's try this one (as I think Kirk's thread is extremely valuable). I did put a budget together when I started, and it was way off mostly due to ignorance. So, to try and be brutally honest, here is what a "builder" is looking at for a decent car:

1. Shell: $500 to $10,000 depending on the car.

2. Cage: $1500 to $4000 depending on the builder.

3. Engine; $0 to $8000 depending on what you want to do.

4. Suspension: shocks/struts and bushings, etc.: $2000

5. Seat: $300

6. Safety equipment: $800

7. Wheels: $1000

8. Tires: $600

9. Fire bottle: $300

10. Other items: $1000

Buy a car:

ITS: $10,000 to $50,000

ITA: $5000 to $20000

ITB: $4000 to $12,000

ITC: $3000 to $10,000

Costs to race your first season (six races)

1. Entry fees: 6 X $250, or $1,500

2. Tires: 2 sets first year, or $1,200

3. Broken parts: $2000 (you are going to have to sort crap out the first year)

4. Brake pads (3 sets): $700

5. Hotels, gas, etc: $200/event, or $1,200

[Ron Earp]

Owwwwwww! I can already feel budgetary rescritions on the Bureau of Transportation and Competition from the Minster of Domestic affairs! '

You forgot:

Loss of money on sale of M3 you stupidily bought not forseeing racing and tow vechicle in your future - $3000

Purchase of tow car - $2000-$40000

Purchase of trailer - $1000-3000

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited September 02, 2004).]

[lateapex911]

And don't forget the collateral costs!

Like: If you have a GF, your gift expenses will increase by double.

If a wife, then figure 2.5,

Add a "weekend away" extra per year to keep tha balance.

Also, a garage/shop addition/expansion/improvement project is likely to crop up.

And finally, budget a few hundred for misc visits to the ER for smashed fingers, burns and stuff in your eye!

And finally a few extra bucks to the phone company for the time you spend under the car talking to the expert.."You mean the little nut next to the frappervalve??"

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Knestis]

People completely neglect - and then rationalize as "capital improvements" - all of the misc. crap that they need but never budgeted for.

Tiedowns, funnels, fuel jugs, trick aluminum jack, stands, tire gauge, pyrometer, VOM, diagnostic software for the laptop, new laptop, alignment tools, more tools, special tools, coilover spanners, brake bleeding kit, mechanic's glove, tire gloves, rubber gloves, buckets, cleaners, engine oil, coolant, brakleen by the case, brake fluid by the case, PS fluid, gearbox lube, awning, awning weights or anchors, cooler, grill, another cooler, folding chairs, tarps, car cover, random spray cans full of stuff, bins, boxes, more bins, more boxes, spare hardware, electrical connector kit, crimper, more special tools, trailer ramps, tool box for the special tools, little partitioned bins for hardware, hardware to fill the bins, trailer anti-sway devices, bungee cords, trailer ramps, pit cart, ATV, paper towels galore, paper towel holder for the trailer, stereo, cabinets, tire rack, compressor, generator, welder, nitrogen bottle, air bottle, air tools, electric impact wrench, cordless drill, bits, angle grinder, cup brushes, body tools, Bondo, measuring devices, level, heat gun, oil drain pans, camcorder, camcorder mount, picnic kit, folding table, blender, umbrellas, rain gear, cool suit, more new tools, toolbox, first aid kit, fire extinguisher, work lights, extension cords, spare parts, more bins for spare parts, flashlights, tire crayons, eyewash, Tylenol, and team T-shirts.

K

[Geo]

Originally posted by Knestis:
THAT'S the kind of information that newbies need, even if they want to ignore it. We don't do people any favors by perpetuating myths or leaving them making bad assumptions.

An enthusiastic guy I used to race with (ex-RE for our region) used to tell people they could "build an IT car just like his for $3000, and get out on the track." When it came time to sell his, guess what he asked for it?

Something significantly greater than $3000.

K

Whoa. Hold the phone.

OK, maybe you cannot build an IT car for $3k that is just like that RE's car. But, you can build an IT car and be on the track for a lot less. Probably not a winning car, but dang, you can be out there and racing and is that so wrong. Take a road car, add a bolt-in cage, the required safety gear and there you go. Probably can go racing for $1,500 or less (assuming you already have the car).

Are you doing a disservice to those who just want to get out there and race by telling them they need to build a competitive car?

I'm the type that has to build a proper car (although I'll start out without a proper IT build engine). Buy my business partner started racing in IT with a car that was barely a step of from what it was in SS trim. Barely. But he got his heinie out there and went racing while a lot of people sat at home and dreamed up what they needed.

Look, I understand what you're saying. Let's not forget the other side.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by rlearp:
Owwwwwww! I can already feel budgetary rescritions on the Bureau of Transportation and Competition from the Minster of Domestic affairs! '

You forgot:

Loss of money on sale of M3 you stupidily bought not forseeing racing and tow vechicle in your future - $3000

Purchase of tow car - $2000-$40000

Purchase of trailer - $1000-3000

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited September 02, 2004).]

But you know what? I give you full marks! I'm on Bimmerforums and sometimes E46Fanatics and I see people saying they can't afford to race, yet they buy wheels that cost more than I've seen built IT cars with a current log book go for.

Good for you for selling the M3 to go racing. Anybody with an M3 can afford to go racing. Good for you for going racing!


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Knestis]

My example is from the mid-80s. It was a Rabbit with a bolt in Autopower, non-threaded struts, a header and exhaust, rubber bushings all around, a pretty good seat and harness, and a lot of pretty gauges. It was a B car then and not a particularly competitive one.



Take a road car, add a bolt-in cage, the required safety gear and there you go. Probably can go racing for $1,500 or less (assuming you already have the car).

Now, see - I worry about this kind of statement. I think it's terribly misleading because the guy/gal with no experience won't know that there's more to the story than this. It's perpetuating a myth.

"Honey - I can go racing for $1500. I already have the Hyundai, so I don't have to buy a new car."

First, you have to qualify "already have the car" to mean, "already have a care that (a) isn't an automatic, (B) isn't a piece of crap with rusted out floors and worn out pieces, © is listed in the ITCS, and (d) has some kind of parts supply available.

Your model assumes a bolt-in rollcage. Not all cars have them available. It presumes that all of the systems are in sufficient condition to be out on the race track. It doesn't take into consideration all of the driver's gear required. Etc., etc., etc.

How about this - I'm going to start a new thread with a challenge...

K

[itracer]

Originally posted by Knestis:
First, you have to qualify "already have the car" to mean, "already have a care that (a) isn't an automatic, (B) isn't a piece of crap with rusted out floors and worn out pieces, © is listed in the ITCS, and (d) has some kind of parts supply available.
K

Don't forget (e) if you can't push it off a cliff and walk away (financially and sentimentally), you should not be racing it.

~Jason
Haven't pushed one off yet, but I've come really close.

[Geo]

Originally posted by Knestis:
Now, see - I worry about this kind of statement. I think it's terribly misleading because the guy/gal with no experience won't know that there's more to the story than this. It's perpetuating a myth.

Oh come on Kirk.


Originally posted by Knestis:
"Honey - I can go racing for $1500. I already have the Hyundai, so I don't have to buy a new car."

First, you have to qualify "already have the car" to mean, "already have a care that (a) isn't an automatic, (B) isn't a piece of crap with rusted out floors and worn out pieces, © is listed in the ITCS, and (d) has some kind of parts supply available.

Well yes, a, b, and c are already assumed of course. Would anybody here tell someone you can race any ol' car? Mein Gott. I don't even know how to respond to this. If someone cannot take care of finding out those things, how can we prevent that?

As for d, that's another one that makes me shake my head. Please define parts supply. If you mean can I find a new washer bottle or do you mean developmental parts?


Originally posted by Knestis:
Your model assumes a bolt-in rollcage. Not all cars have them available.

I'll give you that, but I would assume anybody planning on a bolt-in cage would do their research before building an IT car.


Originally posted by Knestis:
It presumes that all of the systems are in sufficient condition to be out on the race track.

Well duh. I mean, just how ludicrous are you going to make this argument?


Originally posted by Knestis:
It doesn't take into consideration all of the driver's gear required. Etc., etc., etc.

That's a whole other issue. Another one that can have a wide range of costs.

Kirk, I just don't see where you're going with this. How do you prevent someone from being a total dumbass? Is that your question? If so, I have to restate your question, how do we prevent someone from being a total dumbass? I don't think you or I or anybody can.

If someone is not even able to find out if their car is elligible for competition, I don't think there is anything we can do to help them.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Wayne]

Originally posted by Geo:
But you know what? I give you full marks! I'm on Bimmerforums and sometimes E46Fanatics and I see people saying they can't afford to race, yet they buy wheels that cost more than I've seen built IT cars with a current log book go for.

Yup, in many cases it's simply a matter of priorities. I have this friend who likes to go to the track with me (might as well, as he has no money to do anything else on the weekends). This guy has a much higher net income then I do, but a much lower net worth. He lives in a much nicer house then I do, drives a very expensive, nice street car (as does his wife), and is in debt up to his eyeballs. He is extended so badly that he can't even finish furnishing his home.

He is constantly whining about how I "get to go racing", and the closest thing he gets to motorsports is passing someone on the freeway in his expensive car. He also whines that I have a very nice detached shop, while all he has is a two car garage full of "stuff".

I've explained to him the concepts of debt, net income, net worth etc. He understands it, but is stuck in the cycle of constantly buying up - car, house etc. and refuses to try and break this cycle.

We have almost this same discussion every race weekend. He tells me that his wife would "not be happy" living in an older neighborhood, or driving a 1996 car (what my wife drives). She wants this, she wants that.

My advice is always the same:
A. Grow some balls (don't let your wife totally run your life).
B. Maybe you married the wrong person...

And that my friend, is why I'm driving race cars on the weekends, and you are driving the Murray riding lawn-mower around your postage sized front lawn. It's sometimes just a matter of priorities... how bad do you want it?

Wayne

[Geo]

Originally posted by Wayne:
[BIt's sometimes just a matter of priorities... how bad do you want it?[/B]

Indeed!

I've seen people without two nickels to rub together put together a kart racing program week after week while someone driving a new M3 say he can't get this or that he needs to get his kart running reliably.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com