Easiest path to the run-offs

[benracin]

So last night I was dreaming that I would rather be a profesional race car driver then a multimedia computer slave. Since I don't have gobs of cash or know any race teams looking for an ITA racer in his second year, what if I were to win the run-offs? (remember, we're dreaming here). I'm pretty sure that winning a run-offs race doesn't mean you're automatically a super star, but at least your name is out there.

So, unless someone has a better plan, let's say your target is to win the run offs and currently you have an ITA rx7. Which path would you take to do it on a regular guy budget?

For me it seems like there's two or maybe three options. Turn that rx7 into an EP car. Would be fun, but with running fancy tires and all it seems expensive. Or is it?

Other option, showroom stock. Sure you're turning a pretty nice car into a racer, but aren't the over all costs lower since you can't do much to the car?

Is there some kind of spec miata path?

So dream with me here. I know I have two counts against me since I own a house and have a girlfriend and can't just sell everything and make the huge leap. Is there other options? How do you become a Boris Said where you get to drive anything all over the place.

Oh ya, I'm going to be turning 30 in a month, so I guess the starting young path is kind of gone.

Ben.
Chaka, MN
ITA RX7

[racer14itc]

Ben,

If your goal is to win the Runoffs and get noticed (on a budget) then I have three words for you: Spec Racer Ford. If you have driving talent, then you'll be able to demonstrate it there. The cars are fairly economical to run and maintain, and there is a ton of support at the track if you need parts. You can pick up a well maintained, ready to race SRF for less than $20K. And if you can drive, it will be competitive. The motors and transmissions are sealed units, pretty much guaranteeing everyone will be very close in power.

Running your RX7 in EP is going to be a VERY expensive proposition. The guys that run up front at the Runoffs in EP can easily have $75K or more invested in their cars.

Showroom Stock seems like an attractive option, but it can get expensive. There are Showroom Stock cars and then there are "Showroom Stock" cars, if you know what I mean. You'll be racing against factory backed cars (Neon, Toyota, etc.) and you have to pick the right car and tire brand to run. Also, the entry costs are fairly high, since you're taking a fairly new car and turning it into a race car.

I'm sure there are other paths (i.e. open wheel such as Formula Mazda, Formula Continental) but I'm not as familiar with those classes so I have no opinion to provide.

Best of luck with your dream, it CAN be done if you want it bad enough!

MC

------------------
Mark Coffin
#14 GP BSI Racing/Airborn Coatings/The Shop VW
Scirocco
Zephyr Race Coaching and Consulting
http://pages.prodigy.net/Scirocco14gp

[This message has been edited by racer14itc (edited August 24, 2004).]

[handfulz28]

If you want to be like Boris, you've got to be willing to get rid of the house and the girlfriend...haha
While SRF is a good class to show your talent, $20k ain't exactly cheap, especially considering your local banker probably won't lend you that money, nor the funds to fix it WHEN you bend it real bad.
Showroom Stock=big money too. I'd bet every podium finisher has a pro-built motor = $5k or more. But you might be able to find high-quality already-built cars for cheap, if you want to run SSB, SSC.
Do you have a lottery, or Powerball in MN? Because that's the best way in, pay-as-you-go. If you start winning, you'll eventually turn the table from you paying them, to them hunting you down.
The other thing to do is show up to the Pro Races, make friends, and offer your help for nothing. I showed up on Friday and helped by cleaning wheels. On Saturday afternoon I was invited to co-drive in a Sunday afternoon support race, for the cost of a set of tires; that's right, I was invited to PAY for a seat.
Good luck,
Michael

[Greg Gauper]

I think F500 is one of the cheapest rides out there. Might be a good fit if you some karting experience.

With the 10 year car elligability rule, SSC has become somewhat affordable again.

AS has got to be one of the better 'cheap thrills' out there (I would still like to try one at Road America, just to experience the thrill of upshifting AND accelerating up that d*mn hill).

All of the classes are expensive when you try to become a front runner. SS does have some decent contingency programs, so that if you do manage to win a few races, you have a slight chance of offsetting some of your expenses (tires being biggest expense, followed by brakes).

[benracin]

Stupid money, it always comes down to that doesn't it. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

I do like racing in IT and I'm really enjoying my rx7 lately, although 5th gear just failed on me. I'm finally getting some issues resolved. I was just kind of thinking that if the point of my racing is to try and get somewhere (talking about more than just around the track), maybe IT isn't the best choice since it doesn't quite have the recognition and hoopla and all that. It is a GREAT place to learn though that is for sure.

Wouldn't it be cool if IT racing could be more like the little circle tracks? I found a series where you grab a car, probably out of a scrap yard, has to be 4 cyl, you finish in the top 3 you get $50-$150 bucks. If only there was some right hand turns and some gear slamming involved I'd do it! Kind of funny how much money we spend to break stuff, tow for hours and maybe, just maybe, get a plastic trophy. I love it!

[dickita15]

I am casual friends with eric curran who is making some progress at being the next boris. eric was a itb volvo guy in new england. in order to step up he bought an A Sedan did a season of nationals and won the championship in the rain. he now has a regular ride with fenton motorsports in grand am cup. he was the driver for cunninhams 2nd nisson until nisson cut it to a one car program. I see him in various other car as a fill in in speed touring and GT.

I guess it can be done but my guess if you put the same effort into making lots of money you could get there faster the way guys like Gennilozzi or R J Valentine did

dick

[ddewhurst]

Ben, Ben, WAKE UP before you fall out of bed & hurt yourself. Only kidding, dreams are what the world is made of. Dream on racen friend. Hey, if ya can beat the blue Saturn & the #14 RX-7 (& it don't have shocks, springs or the Tri link/Panhard in yet) at the Farm in Oct that would be great head food for the MN winter months.

On the serious side you need to attend the Runoffs as a spectator & see the world from the fast side back. Or from the back side forward to the fast side. Some people pull into the Runoffs just like we do & others well they just have way to much recerational money. At the Runoffs you can find me in the camp grounds with a popup camper for the week. Come on down for it's a fun week.

If it's at the Runoffs or a Regional race we all have fun.

The previous poster Mark will be at the Runoffs as a G Production owner/driver. Greg, how about you ?

Have Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

[Greg Gauper]

You betcha! We (GP) don't race till Sunday so I might bring a set of whites with me and work corners on Friday & Saturday.....it's the second best seat in the house http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

[gsbaker]

I agree with Mark, SRF makes the best investment sense overall. The trick is resale value. Sure, you can spend $20K on a decent car, but you can sell it a few years later for $16-18K. A production-based car may sell for 1/3 of what you have in it.

Expect to spend some money if you want to win at the national level, regardless of class. SRF teams have been known to buy 5 sealed engines, dyno them all, and install the best one.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[racer14itc]

Originally posted by Greg Gauper:
I think F500 is one of the cheapest rides out there. Might be a good fit if you some karting experience.

With the 10 year car elligability rule, SSC has become somewhat affordable again.

AS has got to be one of the better 'cheap thrills' out there (I would still like to try one at Road America, just to experience the thrill of upshifting AND accelerating up that d*mn hill).

All of the classes are expensive when you try to become a front runner. SS does have some decent contingency programs, so that if you do manage to win a few races, you have a slight chance of offsetting some of your expenses (tires being biggest expense, followed by brakes).

Just a note on tires: both Hoosier and Goodyear have a nice little tire contingency plan for national racers. If you win a national race, you get two FREE tires. 2nd place gets one FREE tire (if there are enough starters in your class).

This season I ran 4 nationals, won 3 and finished 2nd in the other, netting me 7 tires. With careful tire management during the season, I have used two new tires. This season my tire bill, including the tires I ordered for the Runoffs, will be $90 (Hoosier gave me a discount on one tire for being the top points finisher in the SEDIV this season).

No, my biggest expense is definitely the gas to fill the tow vehicle!!

On a similar topic, most folks aren't even aware that Hoosier supports SARRC racers. Or at least they did when I raced ITC. Each SARRC win was worth $100 credit towards tires, 2nd place was worth $50 and 3rd place was $25. Not enough to totally offset your tire bill, but every little bit helps.

MC


------------------
Mark Coffin
#14 GP BSI Racing/Airborn Coatings/The Shop VW
Scirocco
Zephyr Race Coaching and Consulting
http://pages.prodigy.net/Scirocco14gp

[Mike Spencer]

Originally posted by benracin:
...I'm pretty sure that winning a run-offs race doesn't mean you're automatically a super star, but at least your name is out there...

Ben,

I have two points to make.

1) About a year ago, Grassroots Motorsports did an article. Something along the lines of "How to go racing for $5,000, $10,000 and $15,000". The $5,000 answer was F500. Spec Miata was their $10,000 option and the $15,000 method was Showroom Stock. They made a lot of good points, but the one I remember most is that the past year's Runoffs winner (David Rousch) was selling that car for $15,000. My point is, you CAN get into SS with a good car for not-too-much money.

2) If you've been a member of SCCA for any length of time and read Sports Car when it arrives every month you probably know who Richard Spicer, David Rousch, Dave Daugherty, Joe Huffaker, Harry Manning and John Heinricy are (apologies for any spelling errors). Who else does?????

Other than Heinricy (who is a VP of Product Development or something for GM) I don't believe any of these guys are racing professionally. Spicer won SRF two years in a row. Huffaker has something like 5 Runoffs wins (and a VERY successful racing business, so he's probably happy staying where he is). At one point, Rousch was running (competitively) in 3 different classes.

Not trying to burst your bubble. It just seems like it's a lot easier to name a Spec Miata driver that made the move up (1... 2... 3... "Chip Herr") than a (recent) National Champion.

LEGAL DISCLAIMER: If any of the abovementioned DID go pro, I'm not aware of it and I will apologize in advance.

The bottom line here is, (in my opinion) deciding which class to run in to give you the best shot at becoming a pro is like deciding which state lottery gives you the best chance at winning.

I would absolutely LOVE it if you proved me wrong!

------------------
Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)

[Knestis]

I won't pee in the punchbowl of enthusiasm in this strand, with my jaded view of "professional" racing but suffice to say that I don't think that a national championship is worth a tinker's damn, without the money to pay for the next ride.

K

[ddewhurst]

Kirk, we don't seem to agree very often on subjects. In fact most times you don't understand what I am posting or don't give a dam or you think educated Phd mind is above & beyond.

But we do agree on one thing RIDES ARE THERE for those with MONEY to BUY their ride.

Mike S, Chip is a great SM driver but at the same time so is Coello, Wilson & Dewey. & the top 4 SM drivers on the West cost are great also. What paves the way is MONEY. $15,000 may get someone a X Roush SS car but it will take a whole bunch more MONEY to keep it at the purchased price level competition.

Ben, ya getting the picture ?

Have Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

[Greg Amy]

Ah, the optimism of youth...I kinda remember that...

Not to make the punchbowl any more distasteful, but "Been There, Done That, Got the T-Shirts". I didn't win the Runoffs, but I finished top-ten for three years straight, the last one on the podium with a new lap record. When I went knocking on doors for pro rides, I was quickly invited in, right as they asked me how much sponsorship money I was bringing.

Ben, racing is a business, and it's all about money. Figure out a way to get the money and you'll find a ride in no time at all. But, "No bucks, no Buck Rogers."

I just finished reading (for the third time) a good book by an English driver named Perry McCarthy, "Flat Out, Flat Broke: Formula 1 the Hard Way!" The gist of the book is how Perry wanted to race in Formula One more than anything, and this autobiography describes what he went through to get there. I firmly believe that this book should be required reading for anyone wanting to make it their career as a motorsports driver. If, after reading this book, you believe that you have that level of motivation and commitment, and you believe that you could make the same sacrifices that he did, then you're on the right track.

If you want to break it down to simple economic terms, it's easy: not much supply in cars for drivers to drive, but a crapload of drivers wanting to drive. Supply = low, demand = high, thus price to the demand = high. Simple economics.

Not only Club racing and lower echelons of Pro racing, but Formula 1 (and CART, and IRL, and even NASCAR to a degree) work the same way. Did you know that probably half or more of the Formula 1 grid consists of guys that are renting their rides for millions of dollars? Oh, sure, it may SEEM like they're getting paid, but in truth they're not; they got there because they marketed themselves to a sponsor that's paying the bills to the race team for that ride. Without that sponsorship, those drivers would not have the ride. If you think these guys are getting paid to simply show up, ask Giorgio Pantano how come he wasn't driving in Canada this year...

Schumacher is on the opposite side of the spectrum. He's the best in the world, there's only one of him, and the teams want him to drive their cars so they can win, plus use him to attract high-dollar sponsors. Low supply, high demand = high price to the teams. Those drivers, such as Schumacher, that reach the pinnacle of their careers - and there are damn few of them - get the bucks, while everyone else pays to be there.

There are probably a few drivers in World Challenge that get a paycheck to be there but even those that may aren't simply folks that show up on race weekends. I am very confident that along with any paycheck comes responsibilities to the folks that do pay the way, the team sponsors. When someone improves their craft and becomes a value to those teams and sponsors, their cost of racing gets reduced to the point where they might be able to make a living, but Joe Nobody doesn't have that advantage. Joe Nobodies (95% of the field) are writing checks.

If you and I walk the paddock at any World Challenge event and look at the folks that are successful, I could describe how virtually each and every one of those persons got there through significant sacrifice, dedication, and severe motivation nearly to the point of self-destruction. I could point out guys that slept in their cars at night while looking for a ride, others that drove total pieces of crap just to build experience and a name, and some that spent each and every personal penny (and a lot that was not theirs - thanks MasterCard!) just to make it to the next event. Oh, sure, there are successful drivers that didn't have to go through that, but they instead chose to spend their time becoming successful in their other-than-motorsports careers so they can afford to pay for racing. VERY few people are there simply because they're independently wealthy and suddenly decided to go racing; most worked very hard at it to the exclusion of everything else.
And this is not necessarily unique to auto racing. Look at other low-supply entertainment spectator industries (which is exactly what racing is). How many two-bit actors and garage rock bands are out there living hand-to-mouth, trying to get their big break on Broadway, Hollywood, or the stage at the local Holiday Inn? For every Ben Afleck there are thousands of Joe Schmoes, for every Metallica there are hundreds of "Bob's Bad Name Rock Band." Look at professional sports: think all those guys slogging through minor golf tourneys are making the bucks that Tiger Woods makes? Ever look into how much Minor League baseball players get? How many players actually make it to the NFL from college ball? Racing is no different. DO you think you’re the next Ben Afleck? What do you think your chances are getting there? What’s the risk of your instead becoming a two-bit actor on off-Broadway plays waiting tables 5 nights a week and living in a flat in Brooklyn?

The one main difference, however, between those other entertainment industries and auto racing is that in Hollywood and Broadway you can't write a check and star in the latest blockbuster show, you can't write a check and play in the Masters, and you can't write a check and be in the World Series. In auto racing, however, if you can afford it YOU can pretty much be in Formula One, and a LOT of people try to get there that way.

If you want success, you have to be ready to earn it. Learn all you can about business in general and the motorsports business specifically. Train yourself to be presentable and marketable. Learn to drive, sure, but learn to be a saleable commodity, because that's what you'll be as a driver. Then, work like hell to market yourself and prove to a corporation that you will make them a return on their racing investment; no one is going to walk up to you and hand it to you. If you do that, if you get that sponsorship, the rides will quickly follow.

If you only remember one thing about sponsorship, it’s this: it’s not what they can do for you, it’s what YOU can do for THEM. Then deliver it. If you want to success in professional racing today, you need to think of it as a business and behave appropriately. You have to learn how to market, and you have to learn how to present yourself. Your driving ability and racing success is *FAR* down the priority totem pole if a pro racing career is in your future. Yeah, you need to have some ability, but with that wad of sponsorship cash you will get the ride. By the same token, no matter how good you are, the guy with the wad will get the ride over your bare hands.

Me, I chose to finish my education and promote my career instead. I decided to do this for fun, not for food. After a 10-yr absence I was able to come back and enjoy this on my terms. And I have no regrets. What about you?

Find a copy of McCarthy's book and read it. It's an eye-opener.

GregA

[planet6racing]

Ben:

I'm sure we'll talk about this off the forum, too, but I thought I should post this here.

If you want to go pro, quit racing in the SCCA. Go down to the local oval track and build a car for that. Work your way up to ARCA, then possibly Busch series. There is a much better ladder system there than for road racing. Too bad you'll only be turning left!

Plus, you can actually win money at those tracks. Sure, it'll take more money to offset the damage from the rubbing that occurred at the track, but the entry fees are typically lower, the number of local events is higher, and fights in the pits are free! Plus, local sponsors are easier to get at the local tracks and you wouldn't have to explain to most of them what Sports Car racing and road courses are.

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[Mike Spencer]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
...Mike S, Chip is a great SM driver but at the same time so is Coello, Wilson & Dewey. & the top 4 SM drivers on the West cost are great also. What paves the way is MONEY. $15,000 may get someone a X Roush SS car but it will take a whole bunch more MONEY to keep it at the purchased price level competition...

David,

I agree. I was (making an attempt at) refuting Mark's comments about their being
Showroom Stock cars and "Showroom Stock" cars. And no, I didn't even start to factor in the cost of keeping it at that level.

I also expected at least one spelling error (sorry, Dave R.) as I did that from memory.

The pro ranks are filled with great drivers. They come from all sorts of places. Ben was looking for a "path". My point was that these guys get there from lots of different "paths", including AutoX (Randy Pobst). Very few of them seem to be past Runoffs champions. (Being an 'east coaster' I just get to hear Chip's name a lot)

Greg, I'm going to have to go find McCarthy's book. I was equally impressed with Carroll Smith's "Drive to Win", since he spends a significant amount of ink describing the kind of personal sacrifice necessary to get to that level. Money is a whole different chapter! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

------------------
Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Very few of them seem to be past Runoffs champions.</font>

I re-read my last night's missive and the original question, and I want to clarify something: there's nothing wrong with shooting for the Runoffs, but for the Runoff's sake. It's an excellent event in and of itself, and a lot of fun (but I must say, I enjoyed the 2003 ARRC just as much. I just wish they could make it a week-long circus like the Valvol...uh, Kohler Runoffs).

Mike, I would refute your above statement with two obvious examples: Randy Pobst and Mike Galati. Both are past SSC Runoffs Champions. HOWEVER, those Runoffs wins did not necessarily pave the way for their current World Challenge success. In point of fact, all those championships did for them was "open doors" for them to even be considered for seats. Those guys still had to hoof it and produce the money for most of their early WC rides, and Galati, I believe was still self-sponsored in World Challenge even after two World Challenge championships!

But, while the Runoffs are useful towards a pro ride, they will not provide the funding. "Money talks, talent walks."

Frankly, if World Challenge or ALMS is your goal, and the funding is available, I see no reason why Improved Touring can't be considered a reasonable 'training ground' for gaining experience. The car prep and setup is much closer to those cars, and the driver competition is very good. Hone your skills in a competitive IT class for your area and work on your marketing and business skills...

[Mike Spencer]

Originally posted by grega:
...Mike, I would refute your above statement with two obvious examples: Randy Pobst and Mike Galati. Both are past SSC Runoffs Champions...

I stand corrected. (My own fault for trying to do this stuff from memory at my age! ...Although, you COULD say that was "two few" http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif )

------------------
Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)

[benracin]

Well I'll just throw this out there. I'm a pretty good kareokee singer. If anyone out there wants to pay for a year in speed challange for me, I'll sing at an event of your choosing for an entire night. Sounds pretty good to me!

Seriously though, I think the reason I brought up the runoffs is that you get a little recognition, but also a little air time. I haven't really tried hard, but I think the problem I'll be running in to is that here near Minneapolis MN all your races are about 6-7 hours away in a different state. To me that brings up the issues of what can a local sponsor gain with me racing no where near their market and probably to far for even them to come check out a weekend. Of course there are other ways to satisfy their needs like parking the car in front of their place, mowing their lawn, washing their car, trying to get them more cash.

I think I'll call up the Pres and propose a plan kind of like Canada's free health care where the government gives you one year, fully funded, to try and accomplish your dream, after that, no more money. Ok, it's nothing like Canada's health care. But man that would be awesome.

I really already knew the answer to this question but was kind of searching for some secret back door. I guess it just kind of sucks that you have some good success or show some talent( for me that was at Don Kitch's driving school in Seattle ) and after the high you're kind of back where you started. If only Mr. Kitch would of been like "Damn you drove that crappy old neon well, come drive a prototype with us at the 24hr of Daytona. Oh, you're not from Seattle? Ah, who cares". Along with telling me what we're hearing here though, they also told me to go buy a race car, try to get an rx7, and do some IT racing. I was selling my autocross focus, buying a truck for towing and race car shopping the next weekend thanks to help from mister banker.

So I took that advice and I'm glad I did. I guess I'm just testing the waters for what's next. I guess what's next is that I'll go beat David and Bill at Blawkhawk in Rocktober therefore showing the world I'm Schumachers equal, then Ron Fellows and I will go win LeMans. Now that sounds like a plan.

Ben Harding

[Mike Spencer]

Originally posted by benracin:
...I really already knew the answer to this question but was kind of searching for some secret back door...

...I guess what's next is that I'll go beat David and Bill at Blawkhawk in Rocktober therefore showing the world I'm Schumachers equal, then Ron Fellows and I will go win LeMans. Now that sounds like a plan...

Ben,

Sorry to salinate your punchbowl. Anything IS possible. But when you get to be an old fart like me, the question becomes more about probability. Sounds like you've got a GREAT plan!

Good luck!!! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

------------------
Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)

[planet6racing]

Bring it Ben! We could always do like cars were doing at the last event I was at and pit on the green flag lap, wait for everyone to get ~1/2 lap ahead of us, then have our own battle! (Of course, it won't matter. I'll still win!)

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by planet6racing:
...If you want to go pro, quit racing in the SCCA. Go down to the local oval track and build a car for that....

Plus, you can actually win money at those tracks....

Ben,

Bill is right. Assuming you can keep the car in one piece, oval can mean racing for free if you are good--next best thing to getting paid.

We have customers who can, if they want, race one local track on Friday and another on Saturday, each good for a heat race plus a feature. It is not unusual for them to be up a few hundred dollars after a good weekend.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[benracin]

The small ovals have caught my interest although I really prefer road racing MUCH MUCH more. This weekend at Brainerd there was a NASCAR series there. Not the big NASCAR boys, but some feeder series or something. Man, for being a smaller series these boys had some cash. At an SCCA race I see some folks in the stands with head sets. When the nascar dudes came out on track every single person of their crew, family, neighbor, got a head set. I even saw 3 little boys with full head sets on. 8 man crews, engine tear downs between sessions, new tires all over the place and some young drivers. What a crazy world. I should of got a picture of my crappy van and tent paddocked next to one of their mega pit spots. I tried to pull my car into their garage telling them 5th gear was gone and it seems out of tune and that we got to get it done before the next session but after they looked for 8 spark plugs and tried to take the heads off the motor they finally figured it out. Boy did I have some 'splain'n to do!

So what if I circle tracked to finance my road racing. I think we're on to something now. At 5' 5" and 135 lbs. I know I weight less then most of them good ole boys. Do they weight with the driver in the car?

[ddewhurst]

***I'll go beat David and Bill at Blawkhawk in Rocktober***

Ok http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

David

ps: Mike S., please stop talking about age because your going to get me thinking about how many years young I am.

[benracin]

Is there a SS message board?

[Tom Donnelly]

Ben,

Here's what I did, not sure if I'd recommend it. First went to the Jim Russell school in the 80's and tried to catch a ride. And actually got one. At the time, I was young and dumb and didn't realize the oportunity was so rare. I wasn't all that thrilled with the team, car and prep and didn't think about seat time or experience. I opted out and went back to college to get my degree.
And now I'm running in IT. But it took me 20 more years to get back in a car.

College did give me something to fall back on. And I'm not starving or wearing a sign that says "will race for food".

Tom

[Mike Spencer]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
ps: Mike S., please stop talking about age because your going to get me thinking about how many years young I am.

EXPERIENCED!!!! (Sorry, I keep forgetting. Probably ol..... DOH!)

I'm a firm believer that it's not hold old you are, it's how old you act. I'll be fine for years to come!!!! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

[Knestis]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
...most times you don't understand what I am posting or don't give a dam or you think educated Phd mind is above & beyond. ...

See? I'm trying to remember when I pissed Mr. D. off... http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/frown.gif

K

[ddewhurst]

***Is there a SS message board?***

Nice shot Ben.

Ben is not refering to a board for SSA or SSB cars.

Have Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

[benracin]

Actually, I am! And... uh... I guess I don't get the joke either...

I really am wondering if there's a SSA or SSB message board. My search turned up nothin'. Just interested in doing some more reading instead of work. Did I say that?

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Knestis:
See? I'm trying to remember when I pissed Mr. D. off... http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/frown.gif

K



I'm guessing it was this comment from the "Component removal" thread:


posted August 23, 2004 10:39 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can never figure out how to take David.
K



or maybe not....

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Knestis]

It's a cross-thread theme, Jake. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

K

[whenry]

When I got interested in racing I bought lunch for the local sports car racing guru and we talked about this issue. His advice was that if you wanted to learn to "race" get into SR(now SRF)and if you just wanted to win, get into some undersubscribed class(ie GT4, GT5, GP) and go to the Runoffs. If you watch the few results that they post in Sportscar, you see that this advice is still as good today as it was 15 yrs ago.
BTW I started in SR and then moved into IT. National racing lost all glamour for me when I realized that my IT times at RA would have me in the top 10 for GT2 but hopelessly behind the top 2 cars. Now I may really try for the Runoffs in the SM but just to get the t-shirt.
Another splash in the punchbowl.

[Anubis]

I wouldn't consider AS to be a cheap thrill, both in time and money at the runoff level will set you back bigtime.

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Lance Snyder
Atlanta Region F&C

No more the small one, the weak one, the frightened one.
Running from beatings, deflating.
I'm becoming more than a man. More than you ever were.
Driven and burning to rise beyond Jesus.

[Greg Gauper]

I agree it isn't a cheap thrill at the runoffs, but most of the legal, off-the-shelf go fast parts as well as the basic running gear items for a Chevy or Ford are far more plentiful and in many cases cheaper than they would be for our IT cars or even LP Prod cars for that matter (Case in point, price up a T10 racing gearbox for an AS vs a custom gearset for a Honda or a Suzuki....if you can even find someone to make a set for you!) My neighbor was recounting how much he had to spend on an alternator for his 510 when it died at the ARRC last year. A Chevy alternator was about 1/3 the price, and every parts store in the area carried one.

And it doesn't cost much to go really fast in a straight line in an AS, and to me, the idea of upshifting and accelerating up that d*mn hill at Road America would indeed be a cheap thrill to me. In an ITC car, you basically had time to read "War & Peace" or do the "Times" crossword puzzle http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Greg Gauper (edited August 26, 2004).]

[grayracer]

In reference to the local bullrings a few observations from personal experience...I dabbled in driving in various classes: mini-stocks, IMCA modifieds, Legends (on asphalt) and a full tube late model running on alcohol (all others on dirt). While all were a lot of fun, its a whole different ballgame from road racing in SCCA/NASA/PCA/BMWCCA.

Even with engine claiming rules/spec tires/spec classes, it is still a very expensive proposition. Remember the old adage "How fast you want to spend?" Your tear up a LOT of stuff banging in the bullrings...especially on dirt...in IMCA we went thru 2-4 tires a weekend either thru wear or cuts...in late model expect even bigger tire bills. Have plenty of rims, ball joints, shocks...expect to lose a few of each every month or so. Dirt regularly chews up U-joints, whell bearings and shocks not to mention engine internals.

As far as prize money...the guys that win $1000 features are running engines that cost upwards of $30K...$5K trannies...$4K rear ends...$700 shock at each corner...all which have to be freshened every 6-8 weekends. Say you finish consisitently at 5th place or so...pays maybe $300 or so.

Well, you get the picture. The thing that suprised me the most was there are a lot of talented, hungry guys at the local level. Plus the sophistication of the cars, even in the lesser classes, is amazing. Set up is key: remember in road racing we generally set the car up balanced on each end; i.e., right to left is the same. In an oval car every corner is different...weights, tire size, wheel offset, shocks, springs, ride height, etc.

For me the most enjoyable racing were the Legends on a 3/16th asphalt oval. Really a hoot and "relatively" inexpensive. But not exactly the path to fame and fortune in motorsports.

Finally...as far as progressing to a series like ARCA, Hooters etc...there was a reality series on CMT called "Driven" abvout young guns trying make it in the lower echelons of asphalt ovals with a hope to make it to the show. Try to catch it when it reumes next year. rMoney was the key no matter how good the were...every team was looking not at the driving talent as much as what $$$$ each could bring. One guy decided to start his own team and leverage every thing he and his parents owned to borrow $800,000 to fund ONE season of Hooters cup.

Beyond that I say "Go for your dreams."

[This message has been edited by grayracer (edited August 26, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grayracer (edited August 26, 2004).]

[gsbaker]

We have customers who are engaged in nearly every form of racing imaginable, probably the weirdest being drag boats (ever seen a 2,000hp surfboard?). By way of casual observation, I would suggest that there are only two common forms of racing where one can at least break even and possibly make a couple of bucks, but only if the driver is very good and very smart: circle track racing and drag racing.

This only works if cool heads prevail, and it does not mean "professional" as in quit-your-day-job.

There are oval drivers--very, very good amateur oval drivers--who can qualify up front, jump to the lead on the green and stay there through the checkered. This is fine for the local stuff, but won't pay the bills if you want to take a team national. Not even close.

Drag racing is probably the best route because crashes, and the associated repairs, are not that common. Entry fees are reasonable and winners get a check.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[Anubis]

Originally posted by Greg Gauper:
And it doesn't cost much to go really fast in a straight line in an AS, and to me, the idea of upshifting and accelerating up that d*mn hill at Road America would indeed be a cheap thrill to me. In an ITC car, you basically had time to read "War & Peace" or do the "Times" crossword puzzle http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Greg Gauper (edited August 26, 2004).]

To hell with that, just make a mount for your laptop and get some work accomplished while on track. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif



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Lance Snyder
Atlanta Region F&C

No more the small one, the weak one, the frightened one.
Running from beatings, deflating.
I'm becoming more than a man. More than you ever were.
Driven and burning to rise beyond Jesus.

[benracin]

Sure, but isn't that hill cool! I don't know if it's just me, but when you start to head up it I like the feeling of getting pushed down in the seat a little bit. My parents and crew are usually on the side of the bridge so it makes it a little more interesting.

[racer_tim]

Ever drivin Laguna Seca? The fun part is coming back DOWN the cork-screw through turn 10.



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[Greg Gauper]

Originally posted by Anubis:
To hell with that, just make a mount for your laptop and get some work accomplished while on track. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif



I still think the I-card was invented by an ITC racer so that you can play Tetris with your Gameboy while climbing that hill.

BTW - The hill is marginally faster in G-prod trim, biggest difference is I get to the hill quicker http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Greg Gauper (edited August 27, 2004).]

[benracin]

So lets say that you're going to try and get some sponsorship for your IT car. I know it ain't easy, but where would you start. Local bars for little stuff? Or shoot high for larger companies and that type of stuff. I know this topic is a big BIG one, just looking for a little 'been there done that'. I know I could probably make $200 faster then I can beg for it, but what does experience say.

[benracin]

Actually, I have a better question. Lets pretend that you're getting your name out there and you've got a sponser or two behind you to help you pay for racing stuff. How does a pro racing driver make money? I'm guessing you hold on to your day job just as long as possible, but once racing is starting to take all of your time, where is the money coming from? Do you start a racing business? Does prize money get better? Just curious. My girlfriend and I were planning out the steps and we both got stuck when we tried to figure out where the money comes from.

Thanks guys.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Knestis:
It's a cross-thread theme, Jake. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

K

Is that 'cross-thread' or 'cross-threaded'? http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

Anyway, you've gotten lots of good advice and information. The one thing I'll say about the short-track route, is it's not as cheap as people make it out, and it's REALLY hard to do by yourself. I crewed for a very good friend of mine for 5 years, on his asphalt late model. Tube-frame (Howe XL) car w/ a fiberglass body (5-Star), and a limited 358 SBC (iron heads, 2bbl, etc.) This class paid $500 to win (and it declined sharply after that) at the local fairgrounds on Sat. night. That $500 would barely cover the tires and fuel for the race (if you wanted to run up front, it was a new set of tires every weekend).

The car came home bent more often than not, and those fiberglass body panels don't hold up well to "rubbin'" (just ask the Prod crowd). After 5 years of racing, my friend had a stack of receipts as thick as the NYC phone book, and he was a VERY skilled fabricator. We used to talk about the differences of short-track vs. road racing. He figured that it cost him about $700 - $800 per weekend to run his car. That's about what it cost me to run my IT car. But he got 1 5 min. practice session, 1 8 lap qualifying race, maybe an 8 lap concelation race, and a 12 lap feature. This was on a 5/8 mile track where the fast lap times were in the 18 second range. If he ran the concey, that would work out to something like 12 min. of total track time.

And believe me, no matter what anybody said, Joe Gibbs, Jack Rousch, Robert Yates, or any of the other big-name folks were in the stands looking for their next driver. But there were plenty of guys out there that thought so, so they drove to 'impress'. Not to mention that there was some serious money sunk into the cars. There were guys there w/ $20k motors trying to win $500.

Not to put you off on short track racing, just want to let you know that it's not as cheap as it seems. Also, there are a LOT more guys (and gals) that are running short track cars that are looking for the 'big break' than there are club racers.

And as far as Runoffs' wins 'paving the way' to a Pro ride, I'm not sure that it doesn't do anything more than maybe get you a little more consideration (provided that you've got the money to bring to the table). Look at the guy that won the FA race last year, Rene Clayton. Very talented young driver (they were paddocked next to us at the '03 June Sprints). This guy wins his division, wins the June Sprints, and wins the Runoffs (and since he won all three, also won the President's trophy, the only one awarded last year). While I admit that I haven't been scouring results sheets looking for him, I haven't seen his name pop up in any of the 'next level' series.

Not sure if it means anything, just figured I'd share my experiences.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Quickshoe]

Re: short track racing and budgets.

Choose the class carefully. I crewed for a Late Model Sportsman for a little while. All they complained about was the small purses and large costs. I learned all I could about that type of racing and then bought a low budget open wheel CDCRA car.

The CDCRA car was MUCH cheaper than a late model (about 10-12K for a top of the line car, we ran a spec tire, limited to the purchase of one new tire per weekend) the fans liked the show, so we got on a good card. Usually with the SCRA Sprint cars and USAC Midgets. This meant full stands and decent purses. I had 2 mediocre seasons, got lucky and didn't tear up too much stuff, sold lots of t-shirts, sold the car after 2 seasons and came out a few bucks ahead.

This was a class where the purse/operating costs were much more attractive than many other classes. Hoosier was also a series title sponsor and contributed to our year end points fund.

As far as the run offs meaning anything...it means on that day you were faster/luckier/better prepared than the others in your class. Unfortunately, it doesn't open a bunch of doors to anywhere.

Look at the number of people with multiple run-off wins...quite an accomplishment...but what has it done for their pro-careers? You are much more likely to advance to the next level by winning a National Championship in a few kart classes.

[benracin]

Great stuff. But how does a pro driver make his or her money? I got the jist of what it takes to attempt to get in the big boys, but how does one sustain? Looks like most people have race shops, own teams, maybe driver instruct? The girlfriend and I were just trying to figure out how does it work when you are mister big cool driver guy. I'm guessing it's some kind of way of roping in working with race cars and driving them.

Like what does Pierre Kleinubing, Jeff Altenburg and those others do on their non-track days? I know a lot of the time is doing the sponsors bidding. So then does the sponsor help pay the cost of living and also the price of the car? Does the team actually pay you a salary?

Sorry for not letting this post die. You guys are the best and only source of info on this topic! So thanks for the help.

[dickita15]

Originally posted by benracin:
Great stuff. But how does a pro driver make his or her money?

T shirt sales? http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

[Knestis]

Most "professional" drivers are called that because they work in professions where they (a) generate enough disposable income to pay for their own racing, and (B) are able to take lots of days off for events and travel.

You'll find people who cashed out of businesses before the market slumped, trust fund babies, hard working entrepreneurs, and those we used to call the "lucky sperm" - the ones who were born to a family where Mom and Dad will just write checks.

You will also find a significant number of shysters, crooks, and people of questionable repute. I rented a seat in an enduro to a guy who had just gotten out of the brig for insider trading. (Bonus points if you can guess who.) He sat at my dining room table and wrote me a check for $2000 like he was paying for a round of golf.

This example illustrates how a lot of the guys with more talent than $$ make it work. Notice how many teams include a fast guy and another guy? That "another" guy is often the dough behind the program.

Portland GT3 guy Dave Rugh ran the IMSA International Sedan series for a while with a rich German bankrolling the effort. I was there one day when ALL the benefactor could talk about was getting the "high rev chip" in his car. He was SURE that he just needed more motor to get from where he was - back of the pack - to where Rugh was. Dave won that race and the rich guy spent all day early-apexing and mismatching revs on downshifts.

At least a couple of guys from the last 20 years have generated racing budgets by having developing sexual relationships with well-heeled, older men. So there's an option, albeit one the GF might not like...

K


[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited August 31, 2004).]

[OTLimit]

I recently read "Flat Out, Flat Broke: Formula 1 The Hard Way" by Perry McCarthy. Pretty scary, actually. Anyone who thinks they have the driving aptitude to make the big time should read this book.

Unless you are exceedingly lucky, and the best driver around, it still takes being at the right place at the right time to make it happen. Probably a blacker image than most would like to see, but probably closer to the truth than most want to admit.

Unless you have the cash to buy your way in to begin with, and are willing to lose it all. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

[lateapex911]

Where does a pro driver make his money???

Man THAT is a tough question! Talk about no one answer, and closely guarded secrets!

Most guys like the Speed hotshoes, (only the front runners) make a living, but do it with ride and drives, and various other related efforts.

Guys like Pobst are rare..I imagine he is well rewarded, but I doubt he threatens Mr Gates.

On the other hand, the NASCAR guys are doing fine, even at the back. When John Andretti joined Petty, after a so-so (at best) career that included nearly every form of motorsports, he joined (this was what...'95??) for a salary of 500K per year. plus t-shirts, plus die casts and all that crap, etc.

Most guys end up the year not with a big salary, but with a collection of checks from misc trade deals, associate sponsors, cvommisions from middleman deals, sales of donated supplies, instructor fees, ride and drive fees and so on, and in the end the hustle pays the bills, not just the driving....

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited August 31, 2004).]