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Catch22
04-03-2004, 12:30 AM
Word has come out (from a kumho dealer) that the only size under 17" that Kumho will release in the new 710 tire this year is 205/50/15.

Compare this to the first sizes of the new Hoosier (including 225/50/14, 205/50/15 and 225/45/15) and you get great insight into which tire manufacturer is more focused on the needs of the IT community.

Then there is of course Toyo, who keeps managing to sign Spec Tire deals but run out of tires by the summer of every year.

I don't work for Hoosier nor am I sponsored by them. I just think that they deserve appreciation that we, the IT community, rarely manage to give them. Other tires may be cheaper, or last longer. But Hoosier is the only company that ALWAYS provides competitive tires, in the right sizes, without availability issues. Not to mention track side support at most events.

If the new Kumho comes out and is comparable to the Hoosier (doubtful) but cheaper (likely), I'll still be running Hoosiers. My Daddy taught me to dance with who brung ya.

Banzai240
04-03-2004, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by Catch22:
Word has come out (from a kumho dealer) that the only size under 17" that Kumho will release in the new 710 tire this year is 205/50/15.

Compare this to the first sizes of the new Hoosier (including 225/50/14, 205/50/15 and 225/45/15) and you get great insight into which tire manufacturer is more focused on the needs of the IT community.


Kuhmo is just following the market... How long do you think that 13 and 14" tires are going to be around?? They're OLD technology, and eventually, the SCCA (we) is (are) going to have to embrace that, because the manufactures aren't going to be able to afford to make these tires for the few of us that need to run them...

They'll be around for awhile, but eventually, the greater market is going to drive the direction the manufacturers will go....

Also... what wins on Sunday... and all that... They aren't marketing 14" performance tires these days...


------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
http://home.comcast.net/~djjordan/Web/DJ_AV1.jpg

[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited April 03, 2004).]

Catch22
04-03-2004, 12:51 PM
Well Darin, thanks for helping me make my point.

Even with the market going towards 17s and 18s Hoosier still pops out some 14s and 15s FIRST. The only possible reason is because you and I (IT racers) need them.
Nobody else does this. Toyo doesn't even MAKE a 225/45/13 or 225/45/15 (two extremely popular IT sizes).

04-03-2004, 01:34 PM
22, thats why I am willing to pay 750 a set for hoosiers, they still make 13" 225's for a handful of us to race on, Hoosier'daddy

planet6racing
04-03-2004, 01:36 PM
Did you ever get the feeling this was about to turn into something like the whole Spec Miata thing last year?

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

Jake
04-03-2004, 05:16 PM
Yeah, those Kumho SOB's with their 235/45-13 Ecsta V700 that costs much less than Hoosier and lasts 3 times as long. Let's boycott 'em. And now they have the nerve to offer 3 flavors of DOT R-compounds!

[This message has been edited by Jake (edited April 03, 2004).]

gran racing
04-04-2004, 11:42 AM
I can see both points here. I love the fact that I can get inexpensive 13" Kumo Escta tires. I also understand that the tire was just manufactured and they have to take into consideration the supply and demand theories. Develop the tires that will be bought most first, then work down. If they can manufacture the bigger tires now, should they wait another year to release these just because they don't yet have the smaller sizes avail.? That would absolutely make no business sense - ESPECIALLY with Hoosier releasing their new tire. For people like myself, I need a tire that doesn't heat cycle out and has a longer life (like the Kumo Escta, the new V710, and yes the new Hoosier). So the release of the new Hoosier tire is pretty huge to the market. Kumo had to do something and release a tire that would be competitive.

There are so many things going on with these types of decisions, it is often misleading to an outsider why the decision is being made. I can think of several different circumstances that could cause this to happen. It is just easier to say that Kumo doesn't care. And you might be just a tad biased to Hoosier. But to say that Kumo doesn't care?

Also keep in mind that this is coming from another person that uses 13" tires. Yeah, I was a little disappointed about Kumo not producing the new V710 in my size right away.

And I am very glad Hoosier makes the new 13" tire. I very well may buy the new Hoosiers. I also think that Hoosier is a very good company.

Oh, did I mention to say that the non-caring IT hating tire manufacturer will have the V710s by next year? I e-mailed Kumo and a very non-caring employee provided me with some information on the transition and when they will be avail. the day after I e-mailed them.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

Knestis
04-04-2004, 06:06 PM
I don't know that there are two sides to an issue here - more like two marketing strategies.

Hoosier only makes racing tires. The other guys arguably use racing to increase brand awareness. Compare the front page of each manufacturer's web site for some perspective.

Hoosier doesn't CARE what sells on Monday - unless they are being ordered for the coming weekend. They do a great job because racers are their market.

K

Catch22
04-05-2004, 12:19 AM
***Yeah, those Kumho SOB's with their 235/45-13 Ecsta V700 that costs much less than Hoosier and lasts 3 times as long.***

Well sure. But its a crap tire.
If you are running these tires and winning in IT you are either...
1. A super hot shoe
2. Have no competition
or
3. Everyone in your region runs them

Hardly anybody in the SE runs the Kumho V700 because they aren't competitive. 90% of the top cars down here run Hoosiers, the other 10% are on Toyos. Everyone I know that has tried the Kumhos has said the same thing... "Crap."
I think one top ITB team runs Kumhos successfully, but I've also been told that they are backed by Kumho and have new tires at every event (admittedly 2nd hand info that might not be true, but they do have some big-assed Kumho decals on the car).

So lets see, its the right size, its cheaper, but nobody is using it...
Hmmmmmm... Go figure.

You get what you pay for.

Mike Cox
04-05-2004, 09:09 AM
In response to your claim of SE Div drivers not using Kumho tires. In Central Florida Region, 9 of the last 10 IT7 regional races have been won by cars using Kumho tires. These cars are not sponsored by Kumho, however it does make economic sense to use these tires for this fact. Kumho pays $150.00 (Credit) per win with 5 or more cars in class. 2nd receives $75.00 and 3rd receives $50.00.

What other tire company supports the tire user in this fashion?

In as far as the tires go, they are very high quality tires, they have very high grip form the beginning of a race to the end of a race and can be "leaned on" hard and respond very well.

I have found the Reps at Kumho to be very racer friendly. Equally, I have found the outlet (Tire Rack) also to be very responsive to shipping new tires and crediting my CC with the "Kumho Bucks" in a timely manner.

Racing is expensive, We all knew that when we started. Anyway to run competively, and reduce cost is a plus to regional racing and this avenue, I have found, has been a a cost savings of enormous proportions to my budget.

(plus my wife does gripe about me getting new tires all the time)

Mike Cox
#37 IT7
Central Florida Region

[This message has been edited by Mike Cox (edited April 05, 2004).]

Jake
04-05-2004, 10:19 AM
The point is that people should buy whatever tire is better for them (which is probably the Hoosier). If we are going to buy tires based on the intentions of the company, we might as well stop racing foreign cars, and only use ones that are built in the USA.

BTW, we may be lucky that the V710 isn't available in 13+14" sizes, there have been cases of them falling apart on the track - and there's a rumor that they may have already been banned from NASA and SCCA club racing.

Catch22
04-05-2004, 11:05 AM
3 Honda Challenge teams showed up at CMP this past weekend with brand new 205/50/15 V710s. All three teams had at least one tire delaminate before the end of the weekend. One tire fell apart in 10 total laps.

Ambient temperature was about 80 degrees and the track is less than 5 years old and is not at all abrasive.

And sorry, I wasn't aware of the IT7 usage of Kumhos down in Florida. But one of my points was that if most everyone in a class is using them... well, it doesn't matter if they suck because they suck for everybody.
I was going to try V700s 2 years ago, but everyone I knew that tried them immediately went back to Hoosiers. So I figured I'd save myself the effort.
I'm glad I did. In 2002 I raced head to head in 10 races against a car nearly identical to mine that was very well driven. He ran V700s, I ran Hoosiers. I won 6 races, he won once.
Why? His tires went away in every race. EVERY race. 4 times he was leading me at the 1/2 way mark but all I had to do was pressure him and the fronts would go away completely. Even when he was on brand new Kumhos and I was on older Hoosiers.

Cheaper? Sure. But that guy bought 10 Kumhos to get through 10 races that year and I bought 8 Hoosiers. Now how much cheaper were the Kumhos in that case?

Scientific data? Nah. Not at all.
But I've seen enough over the past couple of years (and this past weekend) to convince me that I'm making the right choice with Hoosier. You can run Kumhos if you want. Doesn't bother me one little bit. I wish everyone in my class used them.

planet6racing
04-05-2004, 11:16 AM
Catch:

What's your point? You don't like Kumhos. That's your opinion. Great. Why beat it to death?

There are plenty of us that do like Kumhos on this board and can't wait for them to develop a tire to compete with the Hoosiers. Until then, I'll stay within my budget and race as best I can.

On Edit: Oh, and please stop spreading FUD. Unless you have e-mails from said dealer or from Kumho directly, let's not play the Spec Miata He-said-she-said game again.

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[This message has been edited by planet6racing (edited April 05, 2004).]

That Renault Guy
04-05-2004, 12:14 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the new Hoosier available in limited sizes only (read 15"+) for last year's runoffs?

------------------
Jim Krom
ITC Renault Encore EFSC (Exotic French Sports Car)

Mike Cox
04-05-2004, 12:38 PM
and my point is that only 3 cars in IT7 out of 12 are using them and some guys do use Hoosiers and someguys do use Toyos, but the Kumho's are beating them on a consistent basis without any tire problems.

gran racing
04-05-2004, 12:57 PM
It appears that Hoosier also doesn't care about us racers - they only released the 13" after the winter. (some sarcasm here?)

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

Catch22
04-05-2004, 02:37 PM
I guess most of you guys missed my original point. The point was while Hoosier consistently provides the right sizes, total availability, no quality control problems (which Kumho has now suffered early with all 3 of their tire releases), and a very competitive product... The racing community mostly just complains about them being expensive.

Toyo runs out of tires 2 summers in a row... Kumho has QC problems every time they release a new tire... Neither company focuses on the *right* sizes for IT... And the most grumbling you ever hear is "Hoosiers are too expensive."

It just doesn't make sense to me.

One of the drivers at CMP this past weekend had one of his front V710s come completely apart in his race (a tire that had a total of 12 laps on it when the green flag dropped). Fortunately nobody got hurt, and it looks like Kumho is pulling the tires off the shelf and will make refunds for those tires.
But what if that tire had come apart at about 110mph in "the kink" at CMP? Somebody could have been seriously hurt (or worse).

Its time (and this is just my opinion of course) for the racing community to stop accepting crap like this just because a product is cheaper. Jesus guys, having your brand new tires completely delaminate in a race is a TERRIBLE thing. It happening to 3 teams on the same day is TOTALLY, COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE!!!
Again, Kumho is all apologetic and stuff, but who cares. How the hell did those tires get to market in the first place? Anybody can make a mistake, but Kumho has a history of them (remember the lots of bad tires at the Solo II nationals a couple of years back?) and this one is pretty bad.

If you don't like my opinion and you just love your Kumhos because they save you $30 per tire... Fine, whatever, your choice.
But this is a discussion board, and I'm just as entitled to my opinion as you are.

As far as unsubstantiated rumours... My size information is not. It comes from one of my sponsors (who deals Hoosier, Toyo, and Kumho) who was informed by Kumho that those sizes wouldn't be available until next year. If Kumho has changed that, well, then I think they probably need to communicate it to their dealers.
Then again, I guess they now have some bigger fish to fry given that some of their new tires have demonstrated a tendency to disintegrate.

planet6racing
04-05-2004, 02:56 PM
Yet everyone lets Micro$oft get away with distributing bad software.

You know, I had typed a response, but I'm done. You are clearly against Kumho and nothing anyone says here is going to change that, so I'll just run my hand-me-down Kumhos and be happy. But, I will be at the front some day (the tires are not currently holding me back from being up front).

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

gran racing
04-05-2004, 03:33 PM
"As far as unsubstantiated rumours... My size information is not. It comes from one of my sponsors (who deals Hoosier, Toyo, and Kumho) who was informed by Kumho that those sizes wouldn't be available until next year. If Kumho has changed that, well, then I think they probably need to communicate it to their dealers."

This wasn't disputed. Only the reason why the tires were not being released in smaller sizes - that they didn't care. Oh well...


------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

Joe Craven
04-05-2004, 03:45 PM
My feeling is that Hoosier does the most to support us IT racers. However, I now run Goodyears since I race in ITB with 6" wide wheels and their tires work better on my car than Hoosiers.

BTW, I started with SCCA late in the 2002 season all excited about Kumho's contigency program. After winning my first race, I had a very bad experience dealing with Kumho. I wrote email to many people at Kumho, including various VPs of sales and of course their race director. The only person that returned my calls or emails was Rudy. That experience led me to believe that Kumho didn't care about my business so I took it elsewhere. I hear things have improved with the people in charge of the program, but I'm also in a Catch22 in my lack of interest in purchasing Kumho products.

Joe Craven
37 ITB 71 Capri
37 ITB VW GTI
tbd ITA 72 Capri V6

oanglade
04-05-2004, 05:18 PM
I run Kumhos and Toyos. Never had a problem finding them. Never had a problem with them with delamination, etc., but I have found Hoosiers too expensive.

My point is that, even though I believe that some people have had problems finding Toyos at some point and that some people have had problems with Kumhos at some point, MOST people have experienced neither, while MOST people have also experienced that the Hoosiers are more expensive and wear faster.


The Kumho V700 might not be as fast as a Hoosier, but it definitely is a great tire for the money. Same goes for the Toyo. Neither of them I would call "crap".


------------------
Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

JohnRW
04-05-2004, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by Catch22:
I guess most of you guys missed my original point...&...It just doesn't make sense to me....



You confuse "listening" with "agreeing". We all heard your point. We don't necessarily agree with you. As you said, you are entitled to your own opinion. You know the old saying about opinions...

We're all adults here. We all have good reasons for choosing what we want to race on. We're able to choose our tires without help from a Tire Nanny.

Catch22
04-05-2004, 06:15 PM
I am in no way anti Kumho. The problem is that I am a competitive racer and I can't be competitive on Kumhos. I can't even try Toyos because they don't bother to make my size.

As a matter of fact I volunteered to do some testing for Kumho late last year but never got a call.
I WANT these tires to work and be faster than the Hoosier. I race in ITC and do that on a tight budget, currently running Hoosiers that were bought last spring (successfully I might add). I'd love to be able to save money and run Kumhos, but they (V700s) are NOT competitive (all other things equal) with Hoosiers and frankly Kumhos quality control (lack of?) scares me.
So I'll keep spending the extra $$$ to stay up front and feel safe, at least until Kumho can make a competitive tire with no QC issues.

If you check Tirerack.com right now you'll see that the V710 has disappeared. It has been recalled and Kumho is offering to replace all of them with V700s AND another set of V710s later (ya know, when the bugs are worked out). Sounds like a great deal, and it is from the purely financial perspective of a racer. But what it REALLY is is an attempt to avoid a public relations disaster by Kumho, because once again they sent a questionable product to market.

That bothers me. If it doesn't bother you... Fine with me. Its your ass, not mine.

Scott, who honestly, really, truly would love it if the Kumho was a great tire, but its not.

Catch22
04-05-2004, 06:20 PM
We're able to choose our tires without help from a Tire Nanny.


The guys that had tires literally explode (complete delamination to the cords) at CMP this weekend might be wanting a tire nanny right about now.
I could be wrong though.

Scott, who will point out that my original post was Friday, Before all of the 710 failures this weekend and before the recall.

Banzai240
04-05-2004, 06:23 PM
http://www.kumhousa.com/V710.asp

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/kumho/kumho_710.html

http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthrea...&threadid=15824 (http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15824)

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=822611

http://www.sccaforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimate...14;t=000151;p=0 (http://www.sccaforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=000151;p=0)

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
http://home.comcast.net/~djjordan/Web/DJ_AV1.jpg

JohnRW
04-05-2004, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by Catch22:

I could be wrong though.



I hear the sound of an axe, grinding. On how many different boards are you going to share your outrage ? You seem to be a prolific poster on this subject, across a wide swath of the iNtaRWEb.

Catch22
04-05-2004, 08:08 PM
No axe.
Just calling what I see, and enjoying finally getting a response that rates up there with some of Kirk's threads. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
Why is it that when someone points out something negative about a product, region, or series many people assume there is some sort of motive? Can't one have an opinion without an evil motive?
And remember, my original post here was BEFORE the 710 problems arose this weekend and this was the only place I made such a post. The 710 problem threads on Honda-Tech.com WERE NOT STARTED BY ME.

Axe... Nope. Not at all.
Just making observations that were then heavily backed up by occurances this weekend. Just lucky I guess.

Scott, who may run Kumhos in a couple of years after someone else proves that they are fast and won't explode.

ITSRX7
04-05-2004, 08:26 PM
Catch22 quotes:


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">If the new Kumho comes out and is comparable to the Hoosier (doubtful) but cheaper (likely), I'll still be running Hoosiers. My Daddy taught me to dance with who brung ya.</font>


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Scott, who may run Kumhos in a couple of years after someone else proves that they are fast and won't explode.</font>

So you WILl give them a chance or you WON'T ???

You point was valid, but the way you presented it was very pro-Hoosier and anti-Kumho.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

Jake
04-05-2004, 10:11 PM
LOL - I love how the fact that the V710's blow up was the point, when the statement was made before this happend. Someone has has ESP. (just kidding) I think everybody made their point.

Wow - what a freaken embarassement for Kumho. It seems like South Korea has WMD's now too. I'm glad their doing the right thing.

Hotshoe
04-05-2004, 10:25 PM
Mike Cox:
Bring your Kumhos to Roebling Road in a few weeks. I'd like to see what they can do against a set of Hoosiers.

I can get five races out of a set of Hoosiers with only a .8 drop in lap times throughout the life of the tire.

I have never tried any Kumhos but I sure have passed a lot of them.

And to answer the question that was asked: Appalachian Tire gives the best service that I have seen in the SEDIV. And the Hoosier Tires they sell (even though they may cost a little more) are the most available and competitive tires I can find.

Joe Craven
04-05-2004, 10:32 PM
Hotshoe, when you say 5 races, does that include practice and qualify or only the races which would be 5 heat cycles? I have 6 heat cycles on my Hoosiers and they are barely worn other than a slight flat spot - :-()

Mike Cox
04-05-2004, 10:46 PM
Rick,

Me, Carlos and Steve will be back to see you with our Kumhos and smiles on our faces.

Hope you doing ok, I heard it was a bad shunt and you're ok.

See you soon


Mike

Hotshoe
04-05-2004, 11:13 PM
Mike:
Thanks for the concern. It took almost 150 hrs to get my car back in shape but she's 100% 2 for 2 at VIR right out of the box.

Joe:
I run qualifying and races on my tires but very few practice laps.

Looking forward to a rematch with Carlos....ha..ha

See you all there

Catch22
04-05-2004, 11:34 PM
Sorry, good points.

My original intent was to be pro Hoosier and not anti anything. But I came across as anti Kumho in giving reasons why I'm pro Hoosier.
Then the new Kumho was a complete disaster this past weekend and I felt it even further demonstrated my point. The timing was just uncanny in terms of this thread.

And to answer Andy's question, I've been saying for 5 years now that I will run Kumhos if/when Kumho gives me a reason to do so. I'm still on Hoosiers and this past weekend did nothing but solidify that position.
I'm on a budget and want to save money like anyone else, so saving over $100 per set of tires is something that certainly grabs my interest. But I'm NOT going to sacrifice the competitiveness, service, and reliabilty of the Hoosier over what Kumho currently has on the market. And at this point I'm not sure I ever will. Thats 3 Quality Control strikes against Kumho in about 5 years, thats pretty serious in my mind.

As to the competitiveness of the V700... Its a cheaper tire, in the right sizes, and readily available, so how come not one single IT podium finisher at the '03 ARRC was riding on them? The best finisher I can think of off hand was 6th (a Miata) in ITA.
Hmmmmmm...

As to S03 Hoosiers falling off... They do.
But if you heat cycle them and manage them properly you can get at least 10 competitive sessions out of them (I use mine for 12).
The key is to keep 2 sets of wheels (and wheels are cheap, often cheaper than a set of tires) so you can get new tires heat cycled and not waste new tire cycles on practice sessions.
Oh, and 10 to 12ish heat cycled Hoosiers are GREAT for enduros (assuming they start with enough tread on them). They perform almost exactly like a Toyo. They are a tad slower (.8 to 1 second) than a fresh tire but never fall off at all.

Fleetcare
04-06-2004, 01:09 AM
Im not too sure but I think that Kumho DOMINATES @ Roebling Road.
I know in SSB Phil Cryole Destroys the hoosier tires with his cars!

I think as far as this is concerned catch22 is being VERY hard on kumho and hasnt tried to product..Hoosier hasnt always been flawless and I know @ Moroso I had TONS of trackside support from Kumho.. hoosier didnt even have a truck out there besides appalation(sp?) tires

As the saying goes. Dont knock it till you try it!

lateapex911
04-06-2004, 03:18 AM
Well, interestingly enough check out the "recall" thread....

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

gran racing
04-06-2004, 11:09 AM
NOW THIS IS PRETTY FUNNY!

I just called Hoosier, and the new R3S04 is not currently available in 13" size. How in the world can I help but laugh? Right now they are in the testing phase and Hoosier anticipates that it will be available in the not too distant future.

Guess neither manufacture cares about us http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/frown.gif Of course I am not being serious here but it certainly is ironic!

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

SamL
04-06-2004, 01:01 PM
As to Hoosier having the best availability in terms of supply and sizes and the best tire (at least in terms of outright speed) there is certainly no argument.

The idea that this is because Hoosier "cares" while the others don't is a little questionable.

For Hoosier a major part of their business is DOT race tires. They have a vested interest in keeping the IT community happy because it helps the bottom line.

Toyo, Kumho, Hankook, etc. have to make and sell tires to a much larger market than a couple of thousand IT & Showroom Stock racers. They are in cut-throat competition against giants like Goodyear and Michelin and have to focus on competing on that level. They don't make certain tire sizes because these companies are making tires for Planet Earth and not Planet SCCA.

It's actually quite surprising that they take the time to make any tires at all for a market that for them is barely profitable. On top of that, these same "uncaring" companies also have, on average, superior contingency programs in a variety of racing series.


As far as one tire being "crap" versus another being "dominant" it has to do with the series and what kind of car you are running.

Toyos are great for endurance racing (real endurance racing, not a double-length sprint race with a mandatory pit stop http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif ). They can last practically forever and stand up well to abuse.

Kumhos actually do seem to be the tire of choice with softer-sprung cars. I've noticed that in the SS-type classes they seem to be on par with the Hoosiers.

Hoosier is definitely the best-performing tire out there, but it comes at a price. Even with a perfectly set-up car, they have the shortest lifespan. A badly set-up car can kill Hoosiers frighteningly fast. As has been noted elsewhere, they are finicky about break-in.


Of course, if you want my REAL opinion on all this tire debate it's this: The modern DOT racing tire has ruined grassroots sedan racing. Ever since the loophole was found (at first by Goodyear, IIRC), the "cheater tires" have brought about the need for coil-over suspension, spherical bushings, racing shocks, and all the other crap that have caused IT cars to become almost as expensive as low-level Formula and GT cars.

Catch22
04-06-2004, 05:45 PM
I never said the 04 Hoosier was available in the 13" sizes yet. What I said was that they got arguably the two most popular IT sizes (225/50/14 and 225/45/15 along with the SM tire) out to market FIRST. Not 17s or 18s as Kumho did. So don't laugh at an argument I never made.
As mentioned, the Hoosier 13s will be out soon, far sooner on the size release curve than Kumho will be with the V710 (one rumour is that they'll do nothing smaller than 15" at all. Its from someone who would know, but still a rumour nevertheless. But we already know it would be AT LEAST another year, far longer than Hoosier).

And I never said WHY Hoosier would focus more on us than Kumho or Toyo, I just stated that (IMO) they do.
And you guys stating that Kumho and Toyo have bigger fish to fry and bigger markets than a bunch of IT racers just kind of proves my point doesnt it? Hoosier fries their fish right in our kitchen and I'm pretty happy about that.

It is nice to see Kumho jump up and attack this latest problem with such vigor and enthusiasm. Some might argue that they have a potential disaster on their hands and dont have a choice (which is kind of true), but companies still often miss that boat and cut their own throats.
Kumho giving out free tires and covering mounting/balancing/shaving costs is about the best thing they could do and its what they are doing. They certainly get two thumbs up for that.

Catch22
04-06-2004, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by Fleetcare:
Im not too sure but I think that Kumho DOMINATES @ Roebling Road.
I know in SSB Phil Cryole Destroys the hoosier tires with his cars!


So one guy in an SSB car (who happens to be sponsored by Kumho) equals DOMINATION?

OK. Whatever.

JohnRW
04-06-2004, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Catch22:

OK. Whatever.


Exactly our thoughts on your contributions here.

See ? We all come away from this discussion in agreement.

Fleetcare
04-06-2004, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by Catch22:
So one guy in an SSB car (who happens to be sponsored by Kumho) equals DOMINATION?

OK. Whatever.


Weak arguement.. And very juvenile at that.

So he is sponsored.. What does that mean? It means he is just that good and he is backed by a factory with the equipment to go fast. I believe he has tried Hoosiers and been slower than Kumhos.

But thats not the arguement.. I think That based on your title, your saying Hoosier cares more. Well cares is subjective. To the average Joe, its always different.

BMW and Porsche have CCA's. Kumho backs those very well. Thus they focus on 17'+ 18's. The make more money on them and those owners have no money problems so street tire sales could also increase. Thats why most people make racing products!

Hoosiers reputation is also very different. They have had the good with the bad.

ANd my final point.

Even if a tire isnt better than Hoosiers, doesnt mean the tire company doesnt respect its customers.And perhaps they have other things to focus on. Because not everyone is dedicated to making racing tires.

Catch22
04-06-2004, 07:39 PM
But thats not the arguement.. I think That based on your title, your saying Hoosier cares more. Well cares is subjective. To the average Joe, its always different.

BMW and Porsche have CCA's. Kumho backs those very well. Thus they focus on 17'+ 18's. The make more money on them and those owners have no money problems so street tire sales could also increase. Thats why most people make racing products!

ANd my final point.

Even if a tire isnt better than Hoosiers, doesnt mean the tire company doesnt respect its customers.And perhaps they have other things to focus on. Because not everyone is dedicated to making racing tires.


Again, thanks for helping me make my point.

My title is "Which Tire Manufacturer Cares About You?" This is "ImprovedTouring.com" ya know, for Improved Touring racers.
Just to make this clear (which apparently I didn't... sorry), I said this in the first post... "...you get great insight into which tire manufacturer is more focused on the needs of the IT community."
"The IT community." Not BMW and PCA club racing, not drivers schools, not street tires. THE IT COMMUNITY!!!

You guys can disagree with me. Thats fine and I welcome it. Debate is fun, productive and healthy. But at least understand what you're arguing. I'm trying to make it as clear as I can but am apparently failing miserably. I added lots of stuff in Bold in this post hoping it might help.

And Jon, your "argument" was the weak one. In a thread about tires on Improved Touring cars, on ImprovedTouring.com, you contributed that one guy in an SSB car does very well at one track (he actually does well everywhere, but YOU threw in the one track reference <shrugs>.) on Kumhos. Well, OK. Thats pretty meaningless to this, or any tire discussion. One guy doing well on a tire in an SSB car at one track is some sort of data point for you? Excellent. I'll try to remember that when I need to sell some old parts.

zracer22
04-06-2004, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by SamL:
Of course, if you want my REAL opinion on all this tire debate it's this: The modern DOT racing tire has ruined grassroots sedan racing. Ever since the loophole was found (at first by Goodyear, IIRC), the "cheater tires" have brought about the need for coil-over suspension, spherical bushings, racing shocks, and all the other crap that have caused IT cars to become almost as expensive as low-level Formula and GT cars.



You got that right!

zracer22
04-06-2004, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by Catch22:
[B]It is nice to see Kumho jump up and attack this latest problem with such vigor and enthusiasm. Some might argue that they have a potential disaster on their hands [B]

I guess Kuhmo thought so too.

http://www.scca.org/news/press04_57.html

[This message has been edited by zracer22 (edited April 06, 2004).]

Quickshoe
04-06-2004, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by Catch22:
As to the competitiveness of the V700... Its a cheaper tire, in the right sizes, and readily available, so how come not one single IT podium finisher at the '03 ARRC was riding on them? The best finisher I can think of off hand was 6th (a Miata) in ITA.
Hmmmmmm.

Because when you show up to a race like that with goals of winning you don't give up any advantage. No matter how small.

The prior comments about you can only win on Kumhos if...is opposite from my perspective. Which is you only need Hoosiers/Goodyears when you are a great racer, competition is fierce AND your competition is on them. Logic or lack thereof: If you are 1 second off the pace on Kumhos/Toyos then Hoosiers or Goodyears aren't going to make you an instant winner. If the competition isn't that fierce why waste the money on a highly consumable item that you don't need. Do you run with a fresh head and high dollar fuel at every race? If everyone in your class made a gentlemens' agreement to save a few bucks and run Kumhos or Toyos would you show up with Hoosiers just to beat them?

The fact that someone places 6th at the ARRC on Kumhos should be evidence enough that the tires are far from crap.

Jake
04-06-2004, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by SamL:
Of course, if you want my REAL opinion on all this tire debate it's this: The modern DOT racing tire has ruined grassroots sedan racing...

Oooh...ooh...oooooh! I like this quote. I wouldn't quite say it "ruined" anything, but it certainly makes things a lot more expensive. How cool would it be if we all had to run Falken Azenis tires at $40/pop! I love how Hooiser says their "DOT" tires are not for highway use. And then they have the nerve to lobby the DOT not to improve their standards...

Catch - sorry we all ganged up on you. You do make good points about Hoosier supporting us more, which I agree with. However...

Originally posted by Catch22:
If the new Kumho comes out and is comparable to the Hoosier (doubtful) but cheaper (likely), I'll still be running Hoosiers. My Daddy taught me to dance with who brung ya.
That's just too bad for you. My daddy tought me to shop around for the best product at the best price.

apr67
04-06-2004, 11:15 PM
If a tire company cared about me, they would make a tire that could be used as a rain tire and then as a dry tire when it was worn.

If a tire company cared about me they would realize that a product that only lasted a weekend was not what I want.

If a tire company cared about me, they would not have tires that flat spot on the drop of a hat.

All of the tire companies care about profit. Period. It is the way capitalism works. Brand H tire company wants to make money. They have a vested interest in selling a product that is very close to 'crack cocaine'. It makes you fast, costs alot and doesn't last long. Sounds to me like a perfect recipe for profitability.

Profits are good. It may be that Hoosier is the only tire company with a sustainable business model for the club racing marketspace. But we have many tires to choose from, Goodyear, Yokohama, Toyo, Michilen, Hoosier, Hankook, and Kumho. Some will come, some will go. BFG used to be big. Bridgestone used to be involved. Maybe MG Peus or some other South American tire company will step up. Maybe Cheng Shin will make racing tires.

BTW, their is not a single racing tire comnpany that has not had supply or quality problems. Most race tires are hand made, and they can have growing pains. Burn down a factory and supply problems you have.

Catch22
04-07-2004, 12:12 AM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Catch - sorry we all ganged up on you. You do make good points about Hoosier supporting us more, which I agree with.</font>

I don't look at it as ganging up. As I mentioned before, debate is good. I just like the folks debating me to be debating the same point as I. Hopefully thats straight now and we'll have no more mention of global profits, BMW CCA, etc.
If I'm the only person with my opinion, I'm certainly OK with that. Hell, try to change my opinion... Go for it. Thats one of the many reasons this board is here.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">That's just too bad for you. My daddy tought me to shop around for the best product at the best price.</font>

Yes, but that also includes service, performance, and reliability. Right now (IMO again) Hoosier has that over the other manufacturers. You spend more money on the Hoosier, but you get more (again, IMO) in return. Which is pretty much how things typically work in all of life.

As far as Hoosiers "lasting one weekend." Well, you're just plain doing something wrong. I, and many others, get alot more than that out of them.
And Hoosier listened to your needs and tried to engineer the "heat cycle" problem out of the new tire. Those results are still TBD because I don't really know anyone thats worn out a set yet.

And I'll say that I probably shouldn't have gone as far as calling the V700 "crap." But you have to understand that in my racing world they ARE crap because they are useless to me. I've raced head to head against them and dominated them, friends that have used them hated them, and in my class and division (ITC in the SE) I get to race against at least one former ARRC winner at pretty much every event (and they're on Hoosiers of course). I can't beat them on Kumho V700s, no way. "Hotshoe's" arguments above are valid in some situations (save money on weak competition weekends) but I don't seem to ever get a "weak competition" weekend. I always run the best tires I can afford to have on the car (which typically means Hoosiers up to 10 or 12 heat cycles, which I still think are better than V700s) and I always buy the expensive gas. I race to be competitive, thats how I have fun, and thats what it takes for me to hang with the Will Perrys, Vesa Silegrens, and Stephen Douglasses of the world (and they all do the same thing). I don't look at it as a burden, I feel blessed to have such strong competition 9 out of 10 times I unload the car. I LOVE it!!! Its why I race.

If you felt the same about racing as I, had constant stiff competition (on Hoosiers), and unloaded every weekend with a win as your goal, you'd very highly likely choose the Hoosier over the V700 as I have. You'd have to.

JMO. You're welcome to try to change it.

PS - I agree with the "DOT Tire" point above. I'd love to be racing on Falkens or Kumho MXs (would Hoosier even be in the DOT market if this were the case? I dunno.) at less than $50 each.

[This message has been edited by Catch22 (edited April 07, 2004).]

Fleetcare
04-07-2004, 01:21 AM
AS far as ruining racing.. thats a tough call!

Honestly unless you have a spec tire with the promise of price control your going to have someone being upset!

Somethings always better for a bit more $$.

But on the flip side.. The US is very lucky to have 2 tire companies making racing tires.

South Africa only has dunlops and they are $320 a tire! try planning a season based on that as your expenses! Its also a true slick ( not DOT there.. and no street tires bc of countless fatalities from retreads) but still.. Your getting 3-4 race weekends for a $1280... Thats probably double if not more anything you can get in teh US.. So the little competition or threat of it.. Is brilliant for the racers!

If none of this make sense, someone slap me http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

lateapex911
04-07-2004, 01:44 AM
Wouldn't it be cool, if (in a perfect world)the SCCA could mandate, (through durometer specs or something) the relative longevity of the tire?

I too would give a second or two in lap time to leave the silly tire buying habit in my past. Waste of time, money, materials and landfill space if you ask me.

Of course, if the SCCA did, no tire manufacturer would care at all....they want to sell volume...

Sigh.....

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

Catch22
04-07-2004, 11:51 AM
Of course, if the SCCA did, no tire manufacturer would care at all....they want to sell volume...

Sigh.....

[/B]

I don't think so. Hoosier DID just make a special tire to try to get into one class (Spec Miata), so I'm guessing if SCCA mandated a durometer reading that Hoosier would comply with a compound change. SCCA is, after all, the vast majority of their DOT tire business. Of course, there is always the chance they'd just say "screw it" and focus on their other products.

The problem with this is that it might knock several contenders out of the running, and as Jon mentioned above, competition is good for us consumers.
Hoosier already has a small margin on their DOT tires, this is why everybody (Appalachian, Tire Rack, Phils, Mid Atlantic...) sells them for almost the exact same price. There just isn't any room to adjust. Any higher and they don't sell them, any lower and they lose money.
Why? Volume. Hoosier doesn't have it, the other companies do. This is also the reason why Hoosier can't offer huge contingency money, they can't afford to do so.

So imagine if a new "durometer rule" left Hoosier as the only player in the market making legal tires for IT???
Would they raise their prices significantly? You bet your ass they would. And anybody else would do the same.

oanglade
04-07-2004, 01:07 PM
Hoosier took their new tire on size 205-50-15 and added the letters "SM" to the sidewall.

I wouldn't call that "making a special tire for one class".

------------------
Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

Catch22
04-07-2004, 03:02 PM
Incorrect.
The SM tire is a different compound than the other s04 tires.
Feedback from most top SM racers that have tried it is "Slighty faster than the Toyo."

The other S04 tires are ALOT faster than the Toyo. They are also ALOT faster than the S03.

oanglade
04-07-2004, 04:16 PM
The Hoosier "SM" is not only the same compound as the RS304, it IS an RS304, according to Hoosier employees, not me. The only difference, other than the "SM" on the sidewall, is a reduced price.

All the "top SM racers" that I have heard from agree that the tire is significantly faster than the Toyo. As in over a second a lap faster at most tracks.


------------------
Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

Catch22
04-07-2004, 05:13 PM
Well then we've both been told different things by Hoosier employees and representatives <shrugs>.

So you're saying there is NO difference between the 205/50/15 S04 and the SM S04 except the marking on the sidewall?
So Hoosier spent money on a different mold just to put an "SM" on there?
Why would they do that?
Honestly. I'm asking because it doesn't make sense to me.

I'm thinking its far more likely that the SM tire is like the Grand Am tire. Looks exactly the same as the regular tire but a harder compound.
Now THAT would make sense.

oanglade
04-07-2004, 05:40 PM
I don't know the reason behind it.

They even have the same catalog number as the 205-50-15 S04 (#46500)with the addition of the letters "SM" to the number (#46500SM).

------------------
Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

BUMPnGO
04-07-2004, 06:11 PM
1

BUMPnGO
04-07-2004, 06:20 PM
Everlasting rears....sounds like some of your old girlfriends but really it's the way tires are used up on a crx si. I usually classify my tire inventory into MAYPOP I's and MAYPOP II's. Personally, I just like the feel of the Hoosier's and feel they are more predictable, although I think the Toyo's have the strongest core to race on for us budget guys.(HA) Neither one help much when the $30,000 Beemers pass me on the staightaway

[This message has been edited by BUMPnGO (edited April 07, 2004).]

Quickshoe
04-07-2004, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by Catch22:
If you felt the same about racing as I, had constant stiff competition (on Hoosiers), and unloaded every weekend with a win as your goal, you'd very highly likely choose the Hoosier over the V700 as I have. You'd have to.

I would show up on Hoosiers (unless everyone else was on Goodyears http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif )

In a lot of ways we probably do feel the same way about racing. I don't show up for second place. I have been to 3 races in my life (out of about 150) that I didn't know I could win when I unloaded. My first race, the biggest race and the most recent.

I'm at a point now that I don't need to win at any cost to my time and household budget. I am now going to have fun. Winning is fun, but you can't do it every time. Heck if you go home accomplishing your goal 1/3 of the time you are doing pretty good. When you don't win and you are no longer having fun, you need to redefine why it is you do this. I decided to buy a car where the fields (out here) are huge, and I'll always have people to race with. As soon as I get a little further up the grid, I'll be having fun again http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

But back on topic--I raced in a series where Hoosier was the spec tire. The prices were great and the purses where decent. They wouldn't have been without a major corporations' support. So I appreciate Hoosier. Back before I knew any better and watched NASCRAP I pulled for Hoosier in the tire wars.

I just don't believe a $600- set of one race weekend tires have any place in IT racing. I know you get more than 1 weekend out of your tires...but what would you do when your stiff competition showed up on new rubber for every race? You only use the Hoosiers because you need to, to be competitive. You'd also have to (with the same goals) if everyone else showed up on new rubber every time too. Maybe it is only a couple of tenths from 1st lap to 3rd heat cycle. But, you are spotting the new tired guy a couple of seconds in the race before the flag even drops. Where do you draw the line?

Catch22
04-07-2004, 08:59 PM
"I'm at a point now that I don't need to win at any cost to my time and household budget."

I don't either. I carefully budget the amount of weekends I do each year to assure that I can reasonably afford what I do. I'm a racer that feels like if I can't be competitive, I won't even load the car and go. So I only do what the budget allows me to do competitively.

"I just don't believe a $600- set of one race weekend tires have any place in IT racing."

I don't either. I know some of you guys disagree, but I don't see a significant falloff on the Hoosiers until about heat cycle number 8. So thats 4 good qualify/race out of each set of tires. I stretch it to at least 2 more after that.

"but what would you do when your stiff competition showed up on new rubber for every race? You only use the Hoosiers because you need to, to be competitive. You'd also have to (with the same goals) if everyone else showed up on new rubber every time too.

Excellent point. And you're correct, there are racers out there who do this. Mostly in ITS and SM from what I've seen.
This is a big reason I race in ITC. I used to have an Integra GSR and the costs to be competitive in it were just too high. I COULD afford it, I just didn't want to.
Nobody shows up for every race with new tires in ITC. Theres no data acquisition, no $3000 dampers, and no motors that are freshened every 2 to 3 weekends. Folks show up with new rubber for the ARRC, and thats about it.

Scott, who bought 8 new Hoosiers last spring and is still competitively racing on them (but they are admittedly about dead).

Catch22
04-08-2004, 11:58 AM
My information on the SM tire was incorrect.

From Rodney Perry at Appalachian Tire (and Rodney is all-knowing when it comes to Hoosiers, and race tires in general really)...
The SM Hoosier is the same tire as the rest of the 04 Hoosiers, just at a reduced cost. All other information that has been widely spread by multiple groups about it being a different compound is incorrect.
It was simply an effort by Hoosier to get into the SM market, which seems to have failed in many regions.

As for the SM drivers from the ARRC saying the SM Hoosier was only slightly faster than the Toyo... I can now only assume that there was some sand bagging going on to try to get it approved. Either that or the Toyo does actually work as well as the Hoosier on a SM chassis. On an ITA CRX (for example), the Hoosier 04 appears to be significantly faster than both the 03 Hoosier and the Toyo.

I dunno... All I know is if I ran 205/50/15 tires I'd be stockpiling these at $142 each.

BMW RACER
04-08-2004, 04:14 PM
Just for the sake of argument (debate). Hoosier does make a very good DOT tire but I do think calling it a street tire is stretching the truth just a wee bit. Maybe we should just go to real race tires? What do you think?

gran racing
04-08-2004, 04:40 PM
Catch22,
About the life span of the Hoosier tires...

You also have to take into consideration all types of cars. On other posts you have stated how helpful it is to race an ITC well set-up race car. The life of tires, brake pads, rotors, ect. And I do think it is very smart to run a car that can do this. But many other cars a more rough on tires so we can't get that type of life out of Hoosiers. And of course it is our own fault for choosing that particular car.

I am very anxious to continue hearing how the new Hoosier tire does. Assuming it is everything that I've heard, people that ran Kumos for sake of longevity will have to think twice about their tire selection.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

Hotshoe
04-27-2004, 11:15 PM
Hoosier / Appalachian Tire Are the best. They had a new set of the 13" 04s come in and brought them to the track and made a special effort to tell me they had them.

I installed a set and all I can say is WOW. I REALLY MEAN WOW. What a tire. I pushed them as hard as I could and they held up ( I finished the race 4th overall with a 1st Gen RX7 ). Traction was better than the old Hoosier, and wear, The jury is still out but I will let you know, They still looked pretty good considering how hard Roebling Road is on tires.

If you like the old Hoosier then you will Love the new 04. If you have not tried a Hoosier I suggest you try the 04 at least once... They are that good..

It takes a lot to make a big impression on me and Hoosier has definitely done their homework on this tire and having it available for us to use this season.

My thanks to Hoosier / Appalachian Tire

Rick Thompson # 99 IT7

04-27-2004, 11:28 PM
im an idiot, I bought a new set of hoosiers last sept($750), blew the motor with 2 laps on them and them let them sit on the car every since, probly hard as a rock.

joeg
04-28-2004, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by 7'sRracing:
im an idiot, I bought a new set of hoosiers last sept($750), blew the motor with 2 laps on them and them let them sit on the car every since, probly hard as a rock.

Only if you left it outside exposed to bright sun all the time.

Otherwise, they'll still work fine!

apr67
04-28-2004, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by Catch22:


As for the SM drivers from the ARRC saying the SM Hoosier was only slightly faster than the Toyo...

Road Atlanta is not what I would call a handling track. It is possible that the Hoosiers extra grip in the corners was offset by its extra drag on the straights. The overall times were down (1.46.6 compared to a 1.46.3 in 2002), so something else may have contributed.

Time will tell.

oanglade
04-29-2004, 11:35 AM
SM ran at the 2003 ARRC under the 2004 SCCA rules that include weight increases of 45 pounds for the 1.6 cars.

------------------
Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

spnkzss
04-29-2004, 01:12 PM
I hate to spread rumors, but my understanding about the new Kumho V710, is that they released them without getting DOT approved.

I don't know about you, but I consider that to be the dumbest thing any tire manufacturer could do for our sport.

In theory, if this rumor is true, everyone that was running them would technically be breaking the GCR rules.

Again this is rumor and do not have any hard fact, but this is a good reason SCCA banned them.

Food for thought.

Knestis
04-29-2004, 02:11 PM
This is one of those posts with an actual disclaimer that "I am not an expert but..."

It's my understanding that tire companies self-certify DOT compliance - a big part of which is that they follow sizing and labeling conventions.

There is no such thing - again, to my knowledge - of a DOT physical testing approval "process," actually applied by DOT, with benchmarks against which tires must match.

This is also NOT the first - or 2nd or 3rd - time that a newly-introduced tire has had problems on the race track. The first instance that I saw was in the mid-'80s when IMSA's Renault Cup went from an S-rated Goodyear Eagle (175/70-13, point of historical interest) to the H-rated version. The new ones overheated and chunked, even when shaved to 2/32nds.

K

Greg Amy
04-29-2004, 02:17 PM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...released them without getting DOT approved...</font>

If that were true, it would be unfortunate, and obviously directly contrary to the regulations.

However, let's face it: the DOT approval requirement is a sham anyway. Requiring DOT approval is a dinosaur rule dating back to "the old days" of Showroom Stock, when the original intention was for cars to run actual STREET tires bought form the local tire store, instead of pure racing tires (slicks). Who in the hell is gonna buy Hoosier R3S04 or VictorRacer tires to put on their Hyundai Sonata? These aren't street tires in any sense of the word, and the Department of Transportation likely has nothing at all to say about race cars.

In the early 80's, tire manufactures saw a loophole the size of a Mack truck and drove right on through it. I don't remember who developed an "R compound" tire first, but I think it may have gotten started when Yokohama (A008) and Pirelli (P3s?) built sticky compound tires for the exotic car market. We started running those in autocross in the early-80s and I'm almost certain that BFG was the first manufacturer to build DOT-approved race-specific tires (Comp TA-R?). We shaved 'em down to 3 or 4/32 and became instantly faster.

These days we don't even pretend that they could be used on the street by molding them full tread and shaving them; we now buy them molded directly to race tread depth (I think Goodyear was the first to do that with the GS-CS in '92? What a s**tstorm that caused at the '92 Runoffs!) I'd bet these current tires are really and truly racing radial tires with a little groove or two in them for show.

So, while (if) Kumho did a Very Bad Thing to the letter of the rules by not obtaining DOT approval, let's not ring our hands in horror and claim they did anything that, frankly, everyone else is doing in reality...

Greg

Prince Makaha
05-15-2004, 07:29 PM
First was the Yokohama A001-r which predates the A008 by a bit.

Hotshoe
05-31-2004, 10:58 PM
I have been trying a set of the new Hoosiers. Well the verdict is in as far as my opinion.

Results: 9 heat cycles so far
........ 4 races
........ 5 qualifying

The tires still have 1/4 tread left, I could get one more race out of them but I am going to use them for qualifying only just to see how many more heat cycles they will take.

Compared to the old Hoosier .... Excellent ... beats them hands down. Not including when the tire is new (first heat cycle) the speed drops off about .3 per heat cycle after the first four cycles.

For the money and the drivability I will continue to use the 04 Hoosier. Five very competitive races out of a set of tires is pretty good in my book.

Rick Thompson #99 IT7