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ulfelder
01-14-2004, 06:04 PM
This has been posted over at the Northeast page, but I thought IT folks nationwide might want to know that another one of their own is stepping up ...

"RimPRO Inc. and FlatOut Motorsports announced today that RimPRO will sponsor FlatOut driver Nick Leverone in North America’s hottest road-racing series: Sports Car Club of America’s Speed World Challenge Touring Car Championship."

To read the rest of the press release, go to www.FlatOut-Motorsports.com (http://www.FlatOut-Motorsports.com).

/Steve U
05 ITS, New England Region
FlatOut Motorsports

Knestis
01-15-2004, 09:00 PM
It's cool that Leverone is getting off the porch to run with the big dogs but - no disrepect intended - the only thing that keeps any IT racer from doing the same thing is a skinny wallet.

K

ITSRX7
01-15-2004, 09:17 PM
And TALENT.

Tough not to take offense.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Greg Amy
01-15-2004, 09:24 PM
NO offense intended, guys, and you know that. We all know Nick's an excellent driver.

However, both Kirk and I have been there, and believe me there's a lot of drivers with fat wallets and no talent, but virtually none with fat talent and no wallets.

Best of luck to you, Nick, and knock 'em dead!

ITSRX7
01-15-2004, 09:46 PM
I am with you some Greg but some things just don't need to be said. And this ain't the WC you know from the mid-90's.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Greg Amy
01-15-2004, 11:07 PM
It does sound dirty when I say it, and I completely apologize for the unintended inference.

It's just one of those nasty little secrets of auto racing I wish I had been told 20 years ago...

ITSRX7
01-15-2004, 11:26 PM
We're cool...now let's get that NX into ITA...

http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Knestis
01-15-2004, 11:50 PM
I said it and I meant it - no offense to Mr. Leverone intended. I only know of him what I've seen in the results, all of which appears to be good.

I just don't think that it's fair to people who are new to this 'business' to perpetuate the myth that there is a talent ladder in US road racing, and that skill and hard work will get one a ride in a high-profile series. I know too much about the way this stuff works, having been in and around 'professional' road racing for a bunch of years.

The difference between the guys who participate in WCT and those who win IS talent but make NO mistake - the primary barrier to entry is lack of funding. I am a total wanker and, if I had a half mil in the bank, I could be there early in the season, too.

K

K

ITSRX7
01-16-2004, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by Knestis:
I am a total wanker...


Well, we agree on one thing at least...

Seriously, nobody is trying to perpetuate any percieved myth. Just be happy for a bunch of regular guys trying to do something cool. Your original post had no redeeming value.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

itbgti
01-16-2004, 09:40 AM
Kirk,

I have to disagree with you....all a "fat" wallet will get you (this day in age) in SPEED TC is a couple qualifying sessions. Driver skill is what will get you actually into the race. Many SPEED TC events are oversubscribed, and there are people that get turned away from the big show due to lack of skill (on that level).

And I also disagree with your opinion that there is not an opportunity for Grassroots racers to get a shot at the big time...they just have to work for it, and yes, spend some money, and they MUST sell themselves. Talent must be an underlying factor. You are correct that we cannot give this false notion to new comers that Champion Racing, 3R, Nismo and others are banging down our doors looking for the next hot shoe...a driver has to make themselves known in order to get rides, maybe it will take a driver to rent a proffessional ride 3 or 4 times, then maybe the renter will give a discount, then maybe eventually a full ride, IF the driver does WELL and shows TALENT.

Kirk, no offense, I just feel that if someone wants it bad enough, they can do it. Sorry for hijacking this post.

Alan

Banzai240
01-16-2004, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by ITSRX7:
And this ain't the WC you know from the mid-90's.

NO DOUBT about that! My car was formerly a very competitive, Nissan backed World Challenge Touring car in the late 90's...

All I've done is change the engine compression back to IT legal and now I have a completely UNDERDEVELOPED ITS car!! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/eek.gif

Far cry from the wicked touring packages they have today... WHICH, by the way, needs to find it's way into CLUB RACING!!

Check this out from the latest Fastrack:

F-28 Sportscar February 2004
GT
GT2
1. Allow World Challenge cars to run in GT2 with their current rules. (Pavageau) The Competition Board shares an equal desire to see SCCA Pro Racing cars competing in Club Racing but the preparation levels and tire choices of the World Challenge are too dissimilar from the GT2 preparation rules.


Could it BE??? I SURE as heck hope so!!! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif





------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX
http://home.comcast.net/~djjordan/Web/DJ_AV1.jpg

Knestis
01-16-2004, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by itbgti:
...Kirk, no offense, I just feel that if someone wants it bad enough, they can do it. Sorry for hijacking this post.

I take absolutely no office, Alan (not even from Andy) because the redeeming value of a conversation like this is that people get to share ideas, some of which might be helpful to third parties even if some individuals don't agree with others.

For the third time: I was not impuning any individual's efforts or talent. If I'm expected to take Alan's assurance that he doesn't mean to be a jerk to me, I think it's fair to expect that others will grant me the same consideration: The fact that I'm saying something that some don't want to hear does NOT make it mean spirited.

This is a public discussion board. If we post something here, it's fodder for discussion and generalization beyond the immediate note that catalyzed that discussion. If we want to do a press release, we should send it to the press. I used to do racing industry corporate communications for a living (or something approximating a living) and, while it was B.C. - before computers - I had to anticipate that people would have opinions about the communications that I put out. Good, bad, or otherwise.

K

benspeed
01-16-2004, 12:00 PM
The right thing to say is, "atta boy Leverone!" Go get 'em. And make sure you round up all the dough you can, cause your gonna need it. Skepticism isn't going to encourage anybody who's taking a shot at pro racing and let's face it - lot's of us would like to have an opportunity. Let's encourage those who through perserverance, determination and talent have made a chance for themselves.

benspeed

ITSRX7
01-16-2004, 12:33 PM
Kirk,

What you said in your original post did not spark healthy debate. It would be like me posting to this board that I think the paint color you chose for your race car was ugly. WHO CARES. We consider what WE have done an accomplishment - and if you knew what it took to get where we are, you would to - so it is hard no to take offense given your blanket statement does not apply to us.

As far as your 'press release' comments - we HAVE sent it to the press outlets we felt appropriate for now, this was just one of the focused, non-press type outlets we thought may be interested. We were wrong in your case.

It is a discussion board. Your comment was not 'discussion' - you effectively said 'Congrats on the motivation but ANYONE can do it if they had the money'. Simply NOT TRUE. That to me is not discussion, educational or productive. And to say the ladder system doesn't exist - tell that to Eric Curren.

Now that I think about it, how about this:

"Congrats to Nick on making the jump. I just wish the financial barriers weren't so high because I know some other talented IT drivers who would jump at the chance to run WC."

THAT gets the point across, no?

I'm done on this one - we differ on what is appropriate and constructive.

AB

Knestis
01-16-2004, 04:54 PM
I am pleased that another IT standout will have a chance to demonstrate his talent in the televised world of WCT. I only wish that talent were the primary determinant in this kind of achievement in this game. I mean that.

K

gran racing
01-16-2004, 05:28 PM
Congrats! Very, very cool. Give them a few "bumps" for us on your way to the front.

Best of luck!

ITSRX7
01-16-2004, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by Knestis:
I am pleased that another IT standout will have a chance to demonstrate his talent in the televised world of WCT. I only wish that talent were the primary determinant in this kind of achievement in this game. I mean that.

K

I agree with you - and thanks.

AB

gran racing
01-16-2004, 09:17 PM
I've been giving this discussion some more thought...

What does it take to make it to the next step? I've often wondered this and have my own ideas. A big wallet? Yeah, that's one way of getting there. But doesn't mean that you'll really make it. And it isn't the only way there.

To truly make it, there is much more. I believe that about 40% of it deals with driving talent. Probably less. There are many talented drivers out there. Then there is the willingness to take a chance, sacrifice, hours upon hours of work on the car, part-time jobs to pay to race, and of course a HUGE part of making it in racing is the ability to sell yourself. Sponsorship, ads, fans, ect. If you are an extremely talented driver but are poor with sponsors - forget it!

It takes a complete package to succeed! Do I wish I could be given the opportunity? Hell yeah! Do I give up? Of course not. Don't let my car hear this, but honestly it is a piece of junk with a nice paint job thanks Metro Autobody. (I'm working on my plugs for sponsors here, humor me) But this dream is why people go after the "little" sponsors like I and many others do. It is because we hope that one day we will get a brake.

Hearing success stories like Andy's gives people trying to accomplish this dream a little hope. I'm still going after it and won't stop anytime soon...Thanks Andy!
Dave

Greg Amy
01-16-2004, 10:13 PM
I wrote this a year ago to a guy, a writer for Sports Compact Car magazine. He wrote in his column about trying to decide which fork in life to take, one of them being a pursuit of a dream of professional racing. I think it's applicable to this discussion as well.

===========

Josh, are you a South Park fan? A couple of weeks ago there was an episode where Stan's parents hired an actor to pretend that he was Stan-coming-back-from-the-future as a drug addict. Tried to scare him into never doing drugs.

Well, my friend, I could have written your "Sport Compact Car" column 10 years ago. You see, in 1992 I was racing SCCA Club and Pro, advancing through my "career" very quickly and quite well I might add. In 1992 I won the Bronze medal at the SCCA Runoffs in Showroom Stock B while setting the lap record. I had Goodyear, Nissan, Valvoline, and lot of local sponsorship with productive experience in World Challenge and IMSA Firehawk. I was ready to make the jump to "pro."

A few things happened to me, though. First, I should have won that 1992 Runoffs race. I had the fastest car out there, I was one of the fastest drivers there, and it was mine to blow it. And I did. Second, I met a woman that stole my heart and diverted my attention to the outside world (partially). Third, while I was able to cover the cost of a hotel room at the Runoffs that year, I let a couple of guys room with me that, I guess, couldn't afford it. They were very successful and promising racers with loads of talent, skills, and experience, and I knew that they were well on their way to success. I looked that those two whom I admired and saw that they had the dedication to sleep on some stranger's hotel floor, to do whatever it took to seek their goals. I saw that they had the desire to sacrifice it ALL to get where they needed to go and it was obvious they were going to get there. I looked at myself and decided that *this* was not for me, that I didn't have the dedication and motivation to do WHATEVER it took, to give ANY sacrifice to get there. Yeah, it's only a hotel room floor obtained through a mutual acquaintance, and sure, I was willing to give up a bunch, and I knew I could compete with the best talent-wise. But the hotel floor was a metaphor for their motivations and I didn't think I had that level of commitment.

During that same Runoffs week I got laid off form my job (again, and via phone call during the event!) I stopped and looked back, realized I was living for the racing, that I had no girlfriend, no really close friends, was not really close to my family, and that the last 8 years of racing had resulted in a road strewn with ex-friends, ex-girlfriends, ex-poorly-done jobs, no savings and a BUTTLOAD of debt, and no real firmed-up future in auto racing. When I tried to use my racing success collateral to obtain a ride for 1993 the responses I got were very much in line with, "Hell, yeah, we want you to drive for us. How much sponsorship are you bringing to the team?" It became painfully obvious that the old axiom of "Money talks and talent walks" was firmly based on reality.

So, I quit. I just up and quit racing after the 1992 Runoffs. Gave it up, let my SCCA membership expire, cancelled almost all of my magazine subscriptions. Sayonara motorsports.

I began a focused attempt, at age 28, of rebuilding what I had for my future. I was unemployed but I had an engineering degree and some good skillsets. I also had an interest in computers and networks, which I parlayed into a very lucrative career as a Networking Consultant. That wonderful woman and I got married. I pursued a life-long dream of getting my pilot's license and was able to buy and rebuild one of my favorite small airplanes which I still own and use regularly. I now own a home, multiple cars (including one of my favorites, a 2000 Audi S4), two dogs (no kids), I am debt-free except for my home mortgage, and my credit cards are paid off in full each month. I have a comfortable - and growing - net worth and a super job doing something real fun while being able to save up enough money to be comfortable in 25 years or so when (if!) I decide to retire.

Two years ago I began out of curiosity to find that 1992 race car. I found it covered in weeds in the back of a repair shop, sitting on a trailer, with a blown engine. I decided that I wanted to repair it and go driving again, just for fun this time. I now had the money to do it correctly, and I could make the time to do it. That car and I were back on the race track soon thereafter, and it was a sweet victory for me. I conquered the racing addiction, got my life in order, and then leveraged that into doing exactly what I was doing before, only much better. Once I recognized that I was never going to make a living as a professional race driver I was able to reorganize my life's priorities in such as way as to not diminish what I had done, but to nourish it. I now enjoy the racing as much as I did 10 years ago. In fact, I'm finding I enjoy building and preparing just as much as I did the driving.

So, while I'm not "future Stan" here to scare you into submission, I can tell you that unless you're absolutely committed 110% to trying to make this a career, and you're willing to accept likely failure in that pursuit, there are much better ways to make a living while still being able to pursue your passion of motorsports.

Oh, and those two guys who used my floor at the Runoffs? Boris Said and Peter Cunningham. Who says hard work and dedication don't pay off?

I wish you the best of luck, whatever you decide to do.

Greg Amy

Knestis
01-17-2004, 12:49 AM
Greg tells part of the story and I'm not going to elaborate with examples of what "110%" looks like for some, beyond sleeping on someone else's floor: I don't want it to be misconstrued in the context of this strand.

If you really care, corner me with a beverage after the racing is done some Sunday...

K

IPRESS
01-17-2004, 01:50 AM
Guys, Why the negative on someone "buying" a ride in a great series? I am not talking about Mr. Leverone, just about anybody that is able and wants to participate. I can't afford to even run in some of the Club Racing classes, much less WC, but if I had the finances I would be inclined to run some WC. Lots of folks compete in various Pro Racing series for "Pleasure". Yeah there are lots of guys trying to climb the ladder too, but the money guys need to be having fun, cause not too many people are going to make a living in WC. One of my goals in life is to win a LOTTO and do like Fred did and run WC in my 70s! Just because a guy is well off and decides to be in motorsports don't hate him. He helps us PO' Folks be able to race.
Mac

Bill Miller
01-17-2004, 08:31 AM
Greg,

Great story!! Not to mention that it rings true!

Andy,

IMHO, you're too close to this one to be completely objective. Not that that's a bad thing, just an observation.

Nick,

Congrats and best of luck!

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

JLawton
01-17-2004, 09:37 AM
Most people in the Northeast know Nick and Flat-out and that this is NOT a case of a big fat wallet. Yes, having a fat wallet can get you to the show, but that’s about all. Having raced with the Porsche Club for many years, I know all about fat wallets and guys who can’t drive for _hit!! Nick and his teammates are exactly why I moved to SCCA. Regular guys who work hard, work on their own cars, keep them immaculate (except some black donuts on Steve U’s car!!), are VERY fast, worked to get some great sponsorship and are willing to help ANYONE!!

Everything they have accomplished they have worked for, none of it was given to them. That’s why this is such great news. Although there are a lot of GREAT drivers in IT, not everyone has the initiative, business savy, and brains to do what Nick is doing.

This one is for all the little guys with skinny wallets (and those like me who wish they were fast too!!!).

GO FLAT-OUT!!


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Jeff L
#74 ITB GTi

PDoane
01-19-2004, 03:57 PM
Lots of good information in this post. I especially liked Greg Amy's tale or "reprioritizing" his life after realizing just what kind of commitment it takes.

I have seen many sides of the money issue being discussed and gone through 2 or 3 different transitions with regards to my racing, so I thought I'd add my 2 cents of experience.

The only reason I ever got involved in racing was because I come from a "wealthy" (believe me there are varying degrees of that term) family. I was studying automotive engineering at college and started watching/reading about all the formula car racing I could, so my parents gave me/paid for my first 3 day professional school. As my mom said then, "if you're going to design cars, you should know how to drive them". If they had known I was going to become addicted, they probably wouldn't have done so. To their credit, they did help out with my safety equipment (even after I had shown my addiction), but never put the real weight of the family resources behind all of my racing endeavours because they "didn't approve of such an activity as a livelyhood/career." I proceeded to sink every penny of my reasonably healthy pre-inheritance (my family does try to give away as much as they can w/o incurring taxes in order to reduce estate taxes) money into increasingly more expensive racing activities. I did lots of things to learn as much as I could to make up for my late start (I was 20 when I took my first school) and reduce the costs. I raced with a school at first, then worked as a mechanic for the school so as to learn the prep/repair. When I left the school racing scene, I did all the work on/towing of my own car myself because (other than a girlfriend) there was never anyone else willing to give up so much time to it. Eventually my results were promising enough to warrant (at least in my addict mind) paying for/buying a National level FF season with leased engines from the engine shop and race shop prep support so as to find out once and for all whether I had what it takes. I did try and find sponsors, but had no success. I won't bore everyone with all the "IFs" and "COULD HAVEs", but surfice it to say that the "all or nothing" season did not provide the superstar results I needed to be signed as a pro driver. I only realized this after quitting my day job (that I had only taken because they paid more than any of the others that recruited at my college) and spending 1.5 years writing sponsor proposals while working a variety of manual labor jobs. Of course I didn't raise a dime and eventually got another engineering job and married a wonderful woman with 2 step-sons.

After 12 years of not racing and devoting my earned money (pre-inheritence "gifts"
had stopped for this period too) and energy to my family, I decided to take it up as a hobby again. Owning the sports car for the street (as a substitute for racing) had just led to a lot of speeding tickets. The step-sons were grown and on their own, so there wasn't that kind of drain on the finances, or my time, anymore. I took a small part of the real inheritance from my grandmother's estate and bought the ITA car, the trailer, the motorhome, and the tools that I needed to race again, paying the "consumables" from my own disposable income. That worked for about 4 seasons, then the internet sucked me in deeper again. I read about a GAC "rent-a-ride" on some website (may have been this one) and it was going to be at the track (Mont Tremblant) where I started racing 20 years before and they had just finsihed millions of $$$$$ in renovation of the track. I was also eager to see the folks I met when working there. A little part of me was also hoping that if I had a good result, that teams would be willing to take me as a driver for the longer endurance races that needed "extra" drivers. So I signed up and ran part of 3 hour pro race with a co-driver that was so wealthy he didn't even have to have a day job and was running a few GAC events in between his PCA events before his "full-time" pro racing run in 2003. We did really well too, but of course there hasn't been any team willing to take on drivers that couldn't pay their way. The funny thing about my co-driver (that I still stay in contact with), is that his goal is just to be able to stop paying for all his racing.

Between the pro rent-a-drive and some unexpected house bills (new windows) early that winter, I realized that I could only really "afford" to race enough to keep my license the next season. That didn't bother me so much and I tried getting a weekend job as an instructor for a different pro school and a manufacturers driving event company, but none of that panned out. One local GAC team agreed to let me work the weekends (as a volunteer), but there was no pay and no guarantee that I would be going to the races (they didn't really need the help), so I stopped after just a few times. Then I read on another website (that darned internet again) about a WC team that needed extra help, part-time for the 2003 season and possibly full-time for 2004. So I signed on as a "fly-in" mechanic for a pro team. This was the first time that I ever made money racing. Not only did they pay expenses, but a small daily "salary" as well. 15 years with my company has left me with enough vacation time that I actually made the racing salary on top of my regular salary for the weekdays I had to spend doing this. I thought I wouldn't want to be a mechanic w/o driving for more than one season, but I must admit that it was enjoyable and I did make some contacts that I would have never made otherwise. One of those contacts has offered me another fly-in job in 2004 for an ALMS prototype team. Part of me says, don't bother, go back to your driving hobby (I don't have enough vacation time to wrench and drive) and stop dreaming of the "big time" and part of me says just maybe I could turn this experience into a full time racing job. Not driving, obviously, but a team manager job or manufacturer liaison job would be neat (even though they could never pay what I make now and are very insecure as far as having work every year).

One other observation I've made about GAC and WC teams with my exposure to both from 2 different perspectives. All the big multi-car teams seem to have the same make-up. One rich owner who wants to race for less than a full rent-a-ride, one "pro" driver to help with set-up and give the team some legitimacy, and at least one rental driver paying as much of the cost of the first 2 as possible. Needless to say, unless my situation changes again, I would not be a GAC or WC rental driver again.

I should add that some GAC and WC owners are just hard working racers that have turned their racing effort into a business. Congrats to those and what appears to be another example.

Peter

[This message has been edited by PDoane (edited January 20, 2004).]

gran racing
01-19-2004, 06:14 PM
Last year I went to a WC event at Lime Rock Park in CT. I was using this as an opportunity to talk to a lot of different team members and learn more about WC.

Unfortunately like others have said, it was quite depressing. I had thought that many of the drivers there were people that are doing this as a living. That definately is not the case. Peter summed up exactly what I found to be true.

Many of the owners told me that it is very similar to regional IT / other SCCA racing but it is just another level. People who race there do it as a hobby not a living. Even the majority of the crew members are volunteers or paid very little.

And quite honestly I have already accomplished my true dream. It is really awesome to be able to go out and race on the tracks that I went to and watched others race growing up.

Eagle7
01-19-2004, 10:06 PM
Peter, where are you located? I'm interested since we share the same name, and I understand that all the Doanes in America are related. Maybe we'll meet at a track somewhere.

------------------
Marty Doane
ITS RX7 #13
CenDiv WMR

PDoane
01-20-2004, 07:46 AM
I'm in southern NJ now, but the total list of residences is as follows;

Ohio
Wisconsin
Connecticut
Pakistan
Thailand
Texas
Connecticut (again)
Michigan (suburban Detroit for High School and Ann Arbor for college)
Quebec
California
New York (upstate)
Maine
Maryland
New Jersey

Yes, I'm one of the Doanes related to the guy who came over on the Mayflower, so chances are good we are related. I didn't make the big Doane reunion in Bucks County PA last summer, did you?

Peter

P.S. The money in the family comes from my mother's side. Morgan's, Jay's, Etnier's.

[This message has been edited by PDoane (edited January 20, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by PDoane (edited January 20, 2004).]

Racy-Stacey
01-20-2004, 06:35 PM
I look at all of this in this way.

1. Those of us looking for a career in motorsports is going to plan a strategy to get there. Fat wallet or skinny one.

2. Those of us who are content with where you are will stay content.

In my case, since I was 12 I wanted to be a professional race car driver. Why? Speed addiction. And Car control freak.

I think we all create ladder systems for ourselves and try desperately to obtain them.
Its just different for everyone. Some get lucky right away. Some it takes nearly all of their lives to where they want to be.

For me I have a little wallet and a lot of ideas. I also have patience and perseverance. I also wont let myself fail my goal. My dream. There are things we can do, that don’t cost a lot of money but put us in the lime light. I think that most would agree that exposure is highest of priorities. The more people who know your name the likely when your name comes up in a conversation – everyone within ear shot will know who you are talking about. Establishing a reputation within the community is vital for a persons success. This thred is about some guy who got a ride. Well some of you know who this person is and some don’t.

If I mention Mike Lawler. Some of you will know who I’m talking about. Some wont. A persons actions and personality, can really get them exposure across a large network of communities.

Something to think about. A guy wins the Runoffs in SM. But know one knows who this guy is. He came out of know where and really hasn’t been around the racing community. Now the second place guy or girl, is very well known and liked within the community and people can offer up good things about them. Imagine, if a scout looking to recruit a driver was weighing the two drivers. Which one do you think will get more attention?

I read Going faster – Carroll Smith. This is an excellent book supporting what I’m saying and a great introduction into what it takes to be a race car driver and the hardships it will take to get there.

We make our own ladders, we just need to climb them. And not look down or get tired and climb back down or get scared and stop.. But keep climbing and plugging away.

Best wishes,
Toodles,
Stacey ‘Racy-Stacey’ Bertran



------------------
Toodles,
Stacey_B AOL IM: SCCAStaceyIB 1990PGL (http://www.scpoc.com/Car%20Profiles/stacey.htm) SCCA STSL "Girls Do It Better" Cal Club T&S, BWRP,WS,Lag,Hallett www.scpoc.com (http://www.SCPOC.com) : www.probetalk.com (http://www.probetalk.com) Racing is my life. Winner One Lap of America 2003- SSGT2 class 1996 Ford Probe GT.

John MacKechnie
01-20-2004, 09:39 PM
Chip Herr is moving from Spec Miata to SWC.

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/roadracing/9436/

Chip is definitely talented and obviously has the financial support needed to move up to a very dollar intensive series.

Good luck Chip.

John MacKechnie

Hracer
01-21-2004, 01:16 AM
Very interesting discussion. I personally like seeing IT drivers go in the WC because those become the drivers that I wish will do well when I see them on TV! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

I have only limited experience of WC from having crewed for three different teams in the past three years and from the few people I know who are/were participants and also been IT drivers at one time or another. However, until I come across anything to the contrary, I will continue to side with this quote as well.


Originally posted by Knestis:
[B]The difference between the guys who participate in WCT and those who win IS talent but make NO mistake - the primary barrier to entry is lack of funding.


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Alex
#2 ita

Eagle7
01-21-2004, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by PDoane:
I'm in southern NJ now, but the total list of residences is as follows;
...
You do get around. UM grad I presume. My wife went to Bentley HS in Livonia.
I'm in western Michigan, near the Grattan track (I can hear them run from my house).

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Yes, I'm one of the Doanes related to the guy who came over on the Mayflower,</font>
Actually a couple years after the Mayflower, but I think he was a Governor of Plymouth Colony.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> so chances are good we are related. I didn't make the big Doane reunion in Bucks County PA last summer, did you?</font>
We planned to, but it didn't work out. Hopefully we'll make it to the next one (unless it conflicts with the race schedule http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif).

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">P.S. The money in the family comes from my mother's side. Morgan's, Jay's, Etnier's.</font>
I would have guessed that. Never heard of any money in my family.
My email address is [email protected]

------------------
Marty Doane
ITS RX7 #13
CenDiv WMR

Greg Amy
01-22-2004, 11:14 AM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...Why the negative on someone \"buying\" a ride...?</font>

This question bothered me, as did Andy's reactions to Kirk's post. It bothered (and surprised) me simply because I had made my initial post with the purest of intentions, and had not considered that someone would react in such a way. I suspect that Kirk felt the same way.

The posts that I offered were not intended to be "negative" as inferred. In fact, they were intended to be offered for exactly the opposite reason, as more of a warning than a discouragement to pursue a dream. How so? I'd say that it fits right into the mindset of "been there, done that, didn't get the t-shirt."

I've observed that motorsports, when taken to a level above "just something to do on the weekends" brings out the best and the worst in the human animal. Those that are deeply involved in motorsports - and I think that this would encompass just about everyone that is a member of this board - experience the gamut of human emotions and desires at an extreme level: pure joy, hurtful sadness, great anticipation, bitter disappointment, greed and envy, satisfaction, dissatisfaction, friendship, enemies, wonderful generosity, nasty selfishness. When taken to a higher level, such as when one decides to make a living at it, those emotions are raised to a level of survival. Somewhere along our journey we find two lines of emotional demarcation: the one where you get serious about the weekend fun, and the one where you must succeed to survive. Each time you cross one of those lines the emotions of your involvement quadruple then quadruple again.

Those that manage to experience such emotions and involvement (and ultimately escape) naturally look back to find the reasons for leaving. While inability to perform is always a concern, the primary - almost sole - reason for leaving or not entering to begin with was/is financial.

Among club racers especially, we have an attitude that if we do well, win, and look good someone is going to rescue us from among the weekend warriors and offer us a pro ride. That may have happened to Jim Clark and Dan Gurney, but that was nearly fifty years ago. It certainly does not happen today. Hell, that probably has not happened more than a handfull of times since the early 1970s. However, everyone one of us to a "T" still believes that it can happen. We still believe that if we win that next race, or the OMP Challenge, or the Spec Miata Cup, that there will be a bevy of team owners itching to get our phone number and plop us into a World Challenge car.

"Those That Have Been There" know better. We know that no matter how many times we beat the guy with the better car, he was the one to get the ride because he had the money. We know that even though we maxxed out credit cards and student loans to buy some pro rides and did exceptionally well with them that we lost the ride the following week to someone with a checkbook. We know that no matter how hard you try, "money talks and talent walks." We know that the vast majority of the Indy 500 field, the World Challenge and Grand Am field, hell, even the back half of the Formula One field is rent-a-rides in some form or another. Talent will crack open the doors, but money is what gets you past the threshold. More money will open the doors regardless of talent.

I *know in my heart* that I can drive better than that checkbook! Can you imagine the emotions that situations like this takes a person through? Can you imagine the frustration of knowing that you are capable of competiting but cannot simply because you didn't win the Lucky Sperm Lotto? I cannot imagine how many driving greats have been lost to history simply because they didn't have a father that nurtured them through karting circuit, then some feeder series, then on and on up the ladder. Look at the guys that are making it today and pick out the one that turned himself into a public corporation to buy the F1 ride, and the one that has an entire COUNTRY sponsoring him, and the one that had a father that dropped him in a kart at age 2. Find the WC guys that started in SS, bought or built WC rides with their own money, then finally managed to do well enough to get paid by the factory. On the flip side, look at racing today and find me someone that was plucked directly from club racing to become a driving great, all free of charge? There may very well be someone out there, but even ex-NYC taxicab driver "Spin N Win" Sullivan was working his ass off to back up his prodigious talent (and to his significant credit, he's working his ass off again to try and bring up the talent through the ranks).

Even the latest success story offered is a case in point. Truly a talented driver for sure, but even a win in a prominent spec class did not get him a free ride. He had to buy the last year's race car (and already has to replace a blown engine), "might as well" run the spec car again too, plus is going to run a T1 and an SBB in the National scene in 2004 on top of it all. He has great potential looming as a journeyman driver, but unless I miss my mark there's some serious personal money (and no job/life constraints) wrapped up in this program. That Spec win didn't get him free rides.

The bottom line is that professional motorsports is not some Great Society experiment where the cream will rise to the top to be skimmed off and used for grander purposes. Auto racing is a BUSINESS, and decisions are made for business reasons. Those of us on the bottom "rungs" that fail to realize this can be bitterly disappointed when we show ourselves to be the cream but find the milk being scooped out from underneath us.

Having been through the old milkpot blender certainly gives one the opportunity - if not the right - to be a cynical bastard about professional auto racing. And while it may seem rude to point out racing's "dirty little secret" (as if it were really a secret to begin with) I sincerely wish someone had pulled me aside 20 years ago and said, "Look, bud, you're a good stick but until you get the money you won't get the seat." I wouldn't have believed him, I would have called him a cynical rude bastard but maybe, just maybe, I would have kept an open mind to learn how to work the system instead of working against it.

"Negative"? It's not negative in my mind, unless your outlook is one of the motorsports optimist. No, I'd say it's the sudden welling of all the old emotions - greed, envy, excitement, disappointment, bitterness, resignation - coming back in one rising bulge upon learning of someone else taking the bulls by the horns and making their own opportunity. I personally wish the Flatout crew and everyone else that takes their shot the best of intentions, I wish I was going with you. I think you will find no one that supports a run at the brass ring more than someone that's tried it. However, no one should expect a Pollyanna-esque view of "all you have to do is be talented and try hard enough" because that just ain't reality.

If that makes me a cynical rude bastard, so be it.

GA (CRB)

[This message has been edited by grega (edited January 24, 2004).]

ITSRX7
01-22-2004, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by grega:
This question bothered me, as did Andy's reactions to Kirk's post. It bothered (and surprised) me simply because I had made my initial post with the purest of intentions, and had not considered that someone would react in such a way. I suspect that Kirk felt the same way.

Sorry you feel this way Greg. The way Kirk's initial post was written, I took offense, plain and simple - and I don't apologize for it. Kirk has 're-written' his statement, which I agree with in theory.

We have worked hard to get to this point - on a variety of fronts - and to say that "ANY IT RACER" could do the same if they had the money simple isn't true and ignorant to the current process/requirements.

I respect your experiences and we plan to learn from them. At worst, it will be fun!

AB


------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Knestis
01-22-2004, 03:20 PM
Uh, yeah - what Greg said. I had exactly the same thought, wondering why the truth was perceived as "negative." It's just a reality and really, information is power: A person who accepts the system as-is may be able to make it work FOR success, rather than as a barrier to it. If I had it to do again, I would still do it - only VERY differently. For example...

I would have pitched a more expensive Porsche-based enduro program to our national-market sponsor, rather than a more cost-effective one running a different brand, had I known he drove a Porsche.

I would have offered to let him use the car personally at no charge for PCA or regional events, had I known that he wanted to get behind the wheel himself.

I would have rented a track and put him in our then-current car for a day to get him hooked on the go-fast crack pipe rather than spending the same time and money trying to make a marketing case for his company's involvement in our program.

I would have spent time trying to get close to rich guys rather than learning how to take car of a racing car.

It goes on. The difference in approach is subtle but VERY important, but I do NOT feel that the reality of decision-makers' and money-spenders' thinking about racint is inherently bad. It's just something that we don't talk about, thanks to the mythical power of talent and hard work.

Kirk (another cynical bastard)

Racy-Stacey
01-22-2004, 06:18 PM
two words - Shauna Marinus

It can happen.


-Racy-Stacey

Banzai240
01-22-2004, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by Racy-Stacey:
two words - Shauna Marinus

It can happen.


-Racy-Stacey

Two more words: Cindi Lux

Went from IT to the Panoz Womens GT Championship, and now drives with Scotty B. White and Nay-Kid Racing...

You just have to have drive, and well as be able to drive!! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
http://home.comcast.net/~djjordan/Web/DJ_AV1.jpg

Knestis
01-22-2004, 09:35 PM
By way of an illustration of my point, humor me...

How are the bills at NayKid getting paid? Who is the decision maker at the Chevy dealer that sponsors the team? What is the motivation for a local dealer to put money into a national racing program? Is Kumho providing $anything$ besides product? Ditto the other race product sponsors? How much of the bill is covered by sponsorship from White's own business? Has NayKid put out any invitations for "funded drivers" to contact the team about rides in the past 18 months? Was it expected that the current drivers "bring something to the table?" Perhaps most to the point, how much personal, family money, or money over which they exercise spending control has each of these professionals spent to reach this point in his or her careers?

Now, I don't know the real answer to any of these questions but based on my understanding of how this business works I have some guesses. I might also be dead wrong but the fact that I'm willing to commit it to type suggests that I will be surprised if that turns out to be the case.

This is NOT to suggest that I think this is somehow bad or crooked, nor do I for one second deny the influence of hustle and hard work, where it comes to making deals like this happen.

MOST IMPORTANTLY - I am NOT suggesting that Ms. Lux or either of the other NayKid drivers doesn't have the talent to do the job behind the wheel. That is NOT what this is about.

It's simply about what I said in the second post of this topic: It is funding that allows a driver to take steps up the "ladder" in road racing.

K

Rabbit05
01-23-2004, 12:33 AM
HEY!!! Now that everyone has had there turn on the soapbox..Congrats to the Flatout guys...Good luck in the WC and kick some @$$. Hopfully somday I'll be there too. Thats what most of this is about right, auto racing! Good Luck guys we'll be rooting for ya's!! VanDenburgh motorsports
ITC Rabbit 05
http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif(hopfully pro somday too.) http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

JDEllis
01-23-2004, 02:27 AM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Has NayKid put out any invitations for \"funded drivers\" to contact the team about rides in the past 18 months?</font>

Kirk:

FWIW...

Unfortunately, I can't provide the documentation, as I forget where I saw it, but I did recently see where they were soliciting paid drivers to run T1 next season. $6500/National sticks in my mind.

-jde


------------------
J.D. Ellis
OVR #71 ITS Olds Calais
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by JDEllis (edited January 23, 2004).]

planet6racing
01-23-2004, 10:38 AM
I remember seeing this ad, too. Hmm...

http://www.sccaforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimate...c;f=23;t=000746 (http://www.sccaforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=000746)

That's the one. $6K per weekend. In four weekends, that'd be about 1 really good ITA car (if you built it yourself)...

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

WC Driver
01-23-2004, 11:24 AM
I would like to shed some light on the subject of jumping into the World Challenge series. I used to race in ITS in the northeast and in 1996 I decided to try a World Challenge race. I have been competiting in the series every year since. As for going from IT to WC I think that it is great and I welcome anyone. As far as the tallent end goes most of the WC drivers were tops in their class at the club level. Thats the reason most of us stepped up into the Pro ranks. For me it was a bigger challenge.

As to what it is like to go from a regional class to WC let me just say that it is a very very sobering experience. At the club level we were usually one of the top cars in ITS for several years I rarely finished out of the top 3. I am sure that is how it is for most of the WC competitors out there. The difference between the front runners and the back markers, such as myself, is money and time. How much money you ask? In order to be competitive it will cost approximately $150,000 to build a front running car. And it will cost approximately $10,000 per race to run the car. In the BMW that I drive it went from being able to run a stock motor, ECU and Bilstein shocks to having to have a $25,000 motor, $10,000 Motec unit and $6,000 in shocks. WC is not for the faint of heart or wallet. Can you run events in WC absolutely! Will you be a top 10 of 5 car probably not. Not unless you have committed the dollars and resources. Most of the top teams in Touring and GT treat the series as a full time job, Turner, Realtime and Tripoint just to name a few. For the reset of us it should be treated as a great experience with the hope of having one of those perfect weekends whereby we could sneak into the top 10 or 15.

Please do not slam anyone for trying it. As for the real side of all of those rides out there with the top teams and their press releases anouncing their driver lineups here is the truth. Most (95%) of the drivers either fund their own operation or pay to drive a car. The Tripoint team wants appox $15,000/weekend to run one of their top cars I would assume the same for the rest of the teams. Could you rent a car for less - yes will it be the same as a Tripoint, Turner or Realtime ride? I doubt it.

For us small guys trying to do this back us and root for us as we come from the same background as the rest of you.

I have personally used the series as a chance to run tracks that I would never have gone to such as Laguna Seca, Las Vegas, Portland, Texas Motor Speedway etc. I do this on the budget that suits my limits/desires. I look at a top 10 as a win based on my time/budget constraints.

Hracer
01-23-2004, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by WC Driver:
The difference between the front runners and the back markers, such as myself, is money and time.

This is one thing I was thinking but didn’t bother to mention it until I saw what you said. I definitely agree with you. Just walking around a wc paddock it's apparent who has the big operations and who is doing this as a part time activity. There seems to be a great $$$ difference between a top car and a mid pack car and the guys finishing up front definitely seem to be in very good cars. Competition is so tight that it seems you really need to put a very good driver in a top car to get good results. If you take away from either one of these things, you become a mid pack runner because there are many other good drivers in top cars that will finish in front of you. For this reason I would imagine it would be somewhat frustrating having a real talented but under funded driver in a low budget car who will have a tough time breaking the top 10 or 15. Either way, everyone says that WC does not compare to IT as it presents a much tougher challenge and I would definitely agree with that. So congratulations to those who have found the funds, time and talent to take up this challenge and do well in WC!

------------------
Alex
#2 ita

PDoane
01-23-2004, 02:21 PM
Don't forget about Roger Foo. There are examples of people that get there through talent and sheer determination. I hope Andy and Co. do make it because it does give the rest a little hope and the will to keep going.

As someone here said, professional racing is a business and no one should be the least bit surprised that $$$$ is what keeps it ticking. If there weren't people (talented or not) willing to pay for those rides, many of the top WC teams couldn't exist.

I guess the moral of my long story above is that having money only gives you the opportunity to display your talent and increases the odds of being a success (because you can get the better equipment). It isn't a guarantee that you'll make it and/or be successful. I also wanted to point out that even if you don't make it as a driver doesn't mean you can't be involved as a "professional" at some level.

I also wanted to end with a statement about how the person who is totally content competing as an amateur (even if they aren't winning consistently) shouldn't be considered "deficient" in any way. We should also all be grateful that somehow we have been able to participate at all.

Peter

WC Driver
01-23-2004, 02:56 PM
I agree with Roger Foo making it on a low budget. He would tow his car to the races. Since Roger is from California it had to take a minimum of 2 weeks to do one of the east coast races. Roger was willing to commit the time and what money he had to do this. How many club racers could afford to take 2 weeks off to do one race. My guess is not many.

It is also interesting to hear what some of the top drivers do away from the track. I read an article about Mike Fitzgerald. If I remember correctly he works out 2-3 hours per day and then takes his shifter cart out on a regular basis in order to stay sharp. I guess its like trying to compare a professional golfer with the weekend fanatic who gets up at 4:00am to get a tee off time who is going to be the better golfer.

It is unfortunate that the chances of making it in road racing is next to non existent. I know people will say what about Boris or PD Cunningham. Yes they do make a living out of it. But as with any professional athlete how long is there earning potential in the sport, 10-15 years? Road racing does not pay enough to enable a 10-15 year career driver to retire without ever HAVING to work. What does the driver do after his career ends? He probably will be in his late 40's early 50's. Unless he does something in the motorsports arena (car owner? takes lots of money) he may not be very marketable in the job market. It is a very big risk to try to do this for a living unless you have a family business to fall back on.

Most of us do this for the fun and as a hobby and as we all know you dont get paid to do your hobbies. It really is a shame. I guess we were born on the wrong side of the pond.

gran racing
01-23-2004, 04:28 PM
"I would imagine it would be somewhat frustrating having a real talented but under funded driver in a low budget car who will have a tough time breaking the top 10 or 15."

Alex - how is this any different than in IT? There are many of us that feel we are really limited as to how well we could do because of our cars. Really the same thing, just at a higher level. But I get your point.

Knestis
01-23-2004, 04:47 PM
That IS a good point: It's about how big a fish you are (or want to be) and how big your pond is...

K

Racy-Stacey
01-23-2004, 07:39 PM
Just to give some support to the other just to be fair.

I got this from a website looking for a driver..

Topic: Be Phil McClure's Team Mate
Raub

posted 01-21-2004 12:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Awesome ride available in new state of the art C-5 for funded driver. Some deals in the works but nothing signed, so car is still open. We also would sell if an arrive and drive program can't be put together. Contact bob.******-racing or ***-***-****. This is first class ride with our team and race engineer, its not cheap. Please only contact us if your really serious

:/ Hard to face reality sometimes.


------------------
Toodles,
Stacey_B AOL IM: SCCAStaceyIB 1990PGL (http://www.scpoc.com/Car%20Profiles/stacey.htm) SCCA STSL "Girls Do It Better" Cal Club T&S, BWRP,WS,Lag,Hallett www.scpoc.com (http://www.SCPOC.com) : www.probetalk.com (http://www.probetalk.com) Racing is my life. Winner One Lap of America 2003- SSGT2 class 1996 Ford Probe GT.

Hracer
01-23-2004, 08:38 PM
Gran racing, it's not different in principal at all, you are right. One could argue F1 is the same way, too. It's always like this. The difference between IT and WC is the fact that there are a lot more good drivers in top cars at a WC race than there are good drivers in top cars at the regular IT race.


Originally posted by WC Driver:
[B]But as with any professional athlete how long is there earning potential in the sport, 10-15 years? Road racing does not pay enough to enable a 10-15 year career driver to retire without ever HAVING to work. What does the driver do after his career ends?

This is exactly how I look at it, too. Personally I will never allow myself to be in a position where racing will be controlling my life. I will only keep racing as long as I am the one in control of it. I always want to be able to have the option to turn the racing switch OFF instead of being dependent on keeping it ON, all the time. I believe this is the best way to enjoy racing at its fullest.

------------------
Alex
#2 ita

Alexj
01-26-2004, 09:07 AM
Best of luck to you Nick, I have never actually met you, but I have watched you race many times.(I crew for Brian R) It looks like you have the drive and talent to be competative in a WC field. It is not an easy place to play, I moved from the regional ranks to WC in 2001 running a BMW,and have given up after the 2003 season. It was a sobering experience, but worth every cent in experience. These guys play for keeps and are willing to do whatever it takes to get that win. The only advice I can give from my mistakes is to drive as much as you can, the traveling and the testing is what was expensive. You need to do every test day before a race and be able to get the car dialed in during that test day. This is where the larger teams really have the edge, they have the historical data and the engineers that can apply that data quickly to get the car dialed in in a short amount of time. Best of luck with the season. If you have any questions on any of it send me a mail.
Alex

Nick Leverone
01-28-2004, 12:01 AM
Alex,

What is your e-mail address?

Nick



------------------
Nick Leverone
04 ITS Mazda Rx-7
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Nick Leverone
01-28-2004, 12:09 AM
Thanks to everyone who has responded, we have no dreams of grandure on this adventure. We feel that the next logical step is to try WC and we made the opportunity for ourselves to do three events for 2004. Our hopes are to do well as anyone's would be, but our real goal is to get our feet wet and see if this is for us. If it is then we will work hard, as we do with anything at FlatOut Motorpsorts, to achieve our goal to the best of our ability.



------------------
Nick Leverone
04 ITS Mazda Rx-7
www.flatout-motorsports.com

RSTPerformance
01-28-2004, 01:16 AM
Nick-

I support you guys 100%... I didn't respond to any of this thread earlier cause I wasn't quite sure how to respond without offending you or anyone else... Since I grew up in SCCA since before I can remember things... I think I can reflect an accurate reflect what an IT racer who visits this site might be able to expect.

To me or us (Blethen family) entering WC is a barier due to our lack of $$$. I think in the "racing world" we would be considered poor. We spend every little dollar and every little resourse we can to race in ITB. Yes I think that we have 2 great looking cars and yes we won 1st and 2nd in ITB NARRC Championship and that was an accomplishment but it was purely hard work and not much $$$ (we probabl have one of the lowest budgets). We then decided to go to the ARRC. Many people might think that we are just like everyone else but we are not, we went with a $1,000 budget for everything, hotel, food, towing, entry fees, tires (we ran on old tires for the NARRC runoffs and the Glen Enduro), etc. We finished 3rd place in the sprints and 4th place in the enduro with a very unhapy car that wouldn't have made it another 15 minutes.

You on the other hand (I think) would be considered a middle class (on the welth scale) racer. No you can not buy your way in Pro Racing (WC) like others who rent cars, but you do have enough money and enough ambition to work your @$$ off to get their. You all at Flat out motorsports have worked extreamly well together to get to where you are quickly. They way you have done it in my eyes is through a lot of hard work, determination, and dedication of what welth you do have.

all this is to try and point out my view...

If you are strugling to afford IT racing, you more than likely will never make it pro or it will take you a very long time to get into world challenge unless you impress some wealthy supporting freinds fast.

If you can comfortably afford IT then you will have a much better chance at moving into WC and finding a sponsor who feels that you can financially handle/partially support the task of a pro series.

If you are very wealthy then yes as long as you can at least get an SCCA licence then you can get a pro ride, but plan on spending 20,000 a weekend and not making the qualifying cut.

No matter what level of racing you are in you wil have to burden some level of the expence...

Raymond Blethen

PS: yes their are a few exceptionsas always, and I admire those exceptions.

Again congrats to the Flat-Out Motorsports guys/girls... You all have worked hard and deserve every opertunity you have EARNED. We know you probably will accept any help that anyone can give you, but don't be shy if their is anything that we can do please just feel free to ask... you should have our e-mail, otherwise stop and ask as you lap us ITB cars!!!

jcmotorsports
01-28-2004, 11:51 AM
nick
good luck in wc. hope everything goes well. if i can help with anything drop me a line
john costello
[email protected]

Simon
01-28-2004, 03:43 PM
Good job Nick.... I think that is great to go from IT to WC. I have hopes of racing at Le Mans one day.... I dont even have a true race car yet, but it is coming along! I will be doing the Red Bull drivers search which is a good American start, and I also hope to race WC as it seems like a lot of WC drivers race in the ALMS and other series.... I have no clue why I wrote this http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif I have good hook-ups and I hope I can move up the ladder... but in America it is not easy http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/frown.gif

Simon
www.simontibbett.evaluand.com (http://www.simontibbett.evaluand.com)

gran racing
01-28-2004, 04:51 PM
Very true! Road racing is the wrong form of racing for us that aspire to become professional racers.

Too bad I'm not into circle racing...

Simon
01-28-2004, 06:39 PM
That is what everyone tells me! Everyone says.."why not oval racing? Why road racing, circle track is where the money is at" I will stick with road racing http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Simon

Alexj
01-28-2004, 08:47 PM
Nick,
Email me at ((([email protected])))