If CART shuts down...what do you think

[greg_umbay]

Being far from home, club racing and my welder, I usually follow the dailys for CART and F1 to fill my need for speed.

In short form, CART's merger looks to be down and out. (www.cart.com for more details)

Now I wonder, how does this affect the US world of open wheel racing and road course racing?


From a marketing standpoint, there will be only 3 names in the game now, NASCAR, IRL and ALMS.

Does this increase the possibility of making F1 more known to the general public?

------------------
http://www.ita.hondapowered.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by greg_umbay:
Does this increase the possibility of making F1 more known to the general public?


I doubt it. Tony Baloney George will probably take the IRL (It's Real Lame) to more road courses.

This sucks. I cannot believe CART has self destructed like this. That Heitzler (sp?) guy was such a mistake.

Hopefully someone will fill the void besides Tony Baloney George.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[whenry]

Spec racing at the highest level. I hate that Tony won but CART just self-destructed(now we know why the Captain and the others left). Evidently the "BIG MONEY" guys didnt come thru.
In 2 yrs they will all be racing in IRL just like nothing happened. The same thing happened yrs ago when CART took over. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[jc836]

Just as the France Family has dominated NASCAR others will eventually see that they too can do the same for open wheel road racing in this country. The USGP is now run on a course that it should not be on-go back to The Glen please. If the IRL and USAC can get their acts together there is hope that a real road course series can emerge as part of the package. Tony George is only doing what he knows 'OVALS'. Can CART aand Roger Penske come back from their doom with the economy as it is-I have no idea. Twas a good show for a formula series while it lasted.

------------------
Grandpa's toys-modded suspensions and a few other tweaks
'89 CRX Si-SCCA ITA #99
'99 Prelude=a sweet song
'03 Dodge Dakota Club Cab V8-Patriot Blue gonna tow

[Blix]

Several points. First of all, champ car is my favorite form of motorsport (other than my racing) and I have been involved with the events and know some great people like Barfield and Kneifel who are involved in the series.
1. It's god awful that Champ Car is in trouble. It is a testament to how awful the marketing efforts are in all motorsports in america other than NASCAR.
2. It will hurt all road course racing. There are going to be ALOT of road courses that just lost their biggest weekend.
3. There is NO CHANCE that there will EVER be a major sanctioning body race other than NASCAR at the glen. The local infrastructure really can't handle the Glen race for NASCAR, and where a fair proportion of the people camp. MANY of the people who go to that race drive home at the end of the race (and only show for sunday). This wouldn't work for F1, with people coming from all over the globe.
4. Don't forget about Grand-Am. The Daytona Prototypes are actually a pretty cool class, and it's possible that there will be more DPs this year than Champ Cars last year. Add that to the reorganization of the classes, and you have three very interesting, very different sets of cars running in endurance road races. And it's backed by the France family among others who are very powerful and smart.
5. Finally, Champ Car isn't totally dead. It sounds like OWRS (gentillozi and crew) are probably going to let CART go bankrupt then buy the assets and assume some of the liablity. That would cost them less than the penalties associated with having less than 18 cars on the grid (promoter's agreeements).
6. Don't discount Trans-Am. They are looking at a 3L or so class for other makes like Honda, Toyota, Audi, etc...Something more like European Touring Car/ SCCA GT2 type cars. That could be VERY interesting to the average Fast & Furious clown.

End of dissertion on american racing,

Eric
NER SM #02

[This message has been edited by Blix (edited December 04, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by Blix (edited December 04, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by Blix (edited December 04, 2003).]

[RacerBill]

I beg to differ, but Ovals is not the only thing Tony George knows. As far as I know, he is still a member of Indianapolis Region SCCA, and the last race he participated in as a driver was a Firestone Firehawk endurance race at Indianapolis Raceway Park (94, 95 I think).

IMHO, there was not enough room for up to fifty teams in only one series. My suggestion would be to have a series similar to the old Ford 2000 series, which had 3 champions, Oval, Road Course, and Overall. Let CART handle road courses, and IRL the ovals.

[ddewhurst]

****In 2 yrs they will all be racing in IRL just like nothing happened. The same thing happened yrs ago when CART took over. The more things change, the more they stay the same.****

Penske & a couple others took their toys & started CART. Tony said to Penske/Patric (sp)& their followers I own the ball & your all going to play my way or your not going to play. Sponsor is the name of the game. Indy draws sponsors.

I don't understand how anyone who likes wheel to wheel racing can stand to watch CART the last few years. After the first corner it's over. Nose to tail just like F1.

On the other hand IRL & NASCAR continue to race wheel to wheel.

Have Fun http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

[racer_tim]

David, but at any IRL race, if you can catch of the stands, they are almost EMPTY. I think that the TV guys/gals go to GREAT lengths not to show any part of the stands.

Since I am a ROAD RACER not a roundy-rounder I don't really follow IRL much. I did think it was funny when they did an interview with Tony Stewart regarding the changes required going from a front engine "roadster" to a rear engine "formula" car. The whole point of the IRL was to allow the midget, sprint car, and silver crown drivers a stepping stone to the next level. It was also supposed to be a North American effort to get American drivers more exposure. Well, how many midget/sprint car drivers are in IRL, and how many non-american drivers have the top rides?

Kind of like Microsoft saying that the Browser is embedded in the Operating System. Oops, you don't have to go back very far and look @ NT 4.0. No browser on that CD-ROM. Heck, Windows 95 was NOT AN OPERATING SYSTEM, it was just a GUI built on top of DOS.

It just shows you that their argument doesn't hold any water, once you start to look closer at it.



------------------
Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[ddewhurst]

Tim, you are 100% correct. But at the same time if I want to watch an open wheel to wheel I will turn on a IRL race & could care less how few people are in the stands. I understand in the long run they require people.

When I choose a type race to watch I want to view the entire race. My first big track Roundy race was at the Milwaukee Mile in 1955. The joint is open 100 years this year. My first road race was at Road America in maybe 1978 & I said to myself what the smell am I doing here. If I can't see the pass I might as well listen to the race on the radio. When I started Karting in 1991 my son said I thought you didn't like road racing. I said to them road racing is for doing & IMHJ not for watching. Different strokes for different folks.

Have Fun http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

[cherokee]

David, I think you are 100% correct. It is lots harder for the casual fan to get into road racing. If you at the popular racing series they are run in fish bowls. You can see everything. And I think that is where circle track racing has an advantage. People want to see it (circle racing) or be close enough to taste it (drag racing). TV folks know this. Fans go to be entertained and nobody knows that better than the NASCAR folks. I hope that they can make their road racing series as successful as their circle track series...I do not know if they can do that with out running in the rovals.

[cherokee]

On F1 I don't think that it is going to be more of a force here. Americans are slow to take on european things. Look how successful SCCA Rally is and there is no WRC event in the US "YET". I also think that the (team orders) approch leaves a bad taste in Americans mouths....it goes against everything this country was built on.

[Tristan Smith]

Perhaps you can't see the whole track in a road course, but those who follow the sport know that there are only two or three places at best, where passes are made. If you place yourself at those spots you usually see all of the interesting "events'. At oval tracks there is usually action happening all over the track, and unless you are watching a specific car at a specific moment, you end up at best catching the tail end of the "event". So pluses and minuses for both types of events.
The best racing in america in my opinion right now is the "Speed Touring car and GT championship". Big fields, interesting production based cars, exciting racing, approachable drivers, and the attainable dream (for some of us, not me) of actually being able to someday drive in the series.

------------------
Tristan Smith
Buffalo's Southwest Cafe
ITA Nissan 240sx #56

[cherokee]

Keep in mind I was talking about growing the sport. You and I know that the action happens here or there. But I had friends come out and say...Gateway was a lot more fun cause I could see everything...at Heartland you where just a dot most of the time. If a new person can't see everything that is going on it is harder to get them intrested....road racing by its nature is just not spectator friendly...thats sad I think it is better racing.

[Hracer]

It's sad to see CART in such trouble and if it completely falls apart, I can only hope for something to replace it. Now lets see if we can get a good discussion going.


Originally posted by ddewhurst:
I don't understand how anyone who likes wheel to wheel racing can stand to watch CART the last few years. After the first corner it's over. Nose to tail just like F1.

On the other hand IRL & NASCAR continue to race wheel to wheel.

Very easy! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif It was great racing to *me*. Personally I get 0 kicks out of seeing cars side by side aka wheel to wheel. I can see that all day long on I85 if I want to. I also get nothing out of watching cars going WOT for the entire race, doing 160+ mph on superspeedways 3 wide when all that's keeping them there beside each other are simple physics.

On the other hand I love watching single file road racing. I love seeing the drivers trying to drive the cars as hard as they can through varying types of corners, straights, braking zones and elevation changes. I like seeing them try too hard and make small mistakes here and there. And I especially like it that much more when there is real wheel to wheel racing and passing. This is why I like road racing and why I honestly find an oval race boring expect for the first and last 5 laps of a race. Oh, and I also LOVE watching FIA rally. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif For me personally, I watch the racing that I watch for a lot more than just seeing two cars go wheel to wheel. But for each, his/her own!

Here's something I read a while ago and just recently have seen it in writing again:


I'm asked a lot if I think this or that form of racing (and I've heard everything from rally to motocross) will ever be as popular in America as it is in Europe. My answer is always "No" because there's a big difference between America and Europe.
It's the difference between the Autobahn and the Montana Interstate speed limit, which marked the death of common sense in U.S. transportation.

Europe is different...it's the difference between scooters filtering to the front at stoplights then going on their way when the light changes, and road rage maniacs shooting each other in stop-and-go logjams.

...the difference between Italian stuff and most of what we get from Detroit and Japan. The word you're looking for is "passion."

It's the difference between people who can't grasp the "Keep Moving" sign beside the right turn lane, and people who don't need that sign in the first place.

...the difference between parking your bike next to four old men who walk over and comment on the make and model, then drop the name of the '50s GP star who made the brand famous, and pulling into the same spot here and noticing the old men edge away a couple steps (except for the one who yells, "Wow, is that a Harley?").

It's the difference between automotive performance that only exists in TV commercials, and the same thing found every day, in real life - and appreciated, not looked down on.

...the difference between seeing one comin' fast in the mirror and moving right, and not having looked in the mirror since your last make-up job.

In Europe, the majority of people "get" this car and motorcycle thing. The American masses don't. Responsibility lies with a dumbed down, National Nanny, lowest common denominator Transportation Bureaucracy that insures a driver's license to anyone who can fog a mirror, then mandates a bags-and-belts cocoon to protect them when they run into each other, which is inevitable because they have no idea what they're doing out there.

Bottom line...a culture that can't grasp "slower traffic keep right" is not fertile ground for the growth of sophisticated forms of motor racing. If you live here and you "get" it, savor your place among the enlightened few, but don't expect the guys around the water cooler to share your appreciation of the German Touring Car series.

-Dave Despain



------------------
Alex
#2 ita

[planet6racing]

I say we start our own series. Completely take over the Cart schedule and market it to the people as a total grassroots effort. We could probably get enough funding for 1 year, especially if we take the OWRS approach (have a giant concert the night before) and get some TV time on broadcast TV (Cart was on CBS what, 3 times this year). Who knows, maybe it will take off because people could relate to the cars we drive and how comparable they are to what they drive (not Audis and Bimmers, but Saturns, Hondas, and VWs).

If we lasted a year, it would be a complete success!

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[cherokee]

I think that a "show room" looking class is going to be the next big thing in American auto racing. I think that manfactures are going to want the win on sunday sell on monday thing back...Spec car or should I say NASCAR has NOTHING to do with what is being sold today. I think that the auto makers are going to want to back something that is what the sell. I think if a series came along like Trans-Am in the early days with the small displacement cars that is what would be big. Limited mods basically SS racing and use tire size weight restrictor plates....to level the field. That I think people would come and watch. A series that manafactures would back...then again I think that IROC should still race Porsche.

[gsbaker]

"...the difference between seeing one comin' fast in the mirror and moving right, and not having looked in the mirror since your last make-up job.

-Dave Despain"

Man, does that say it all.

American roads are basically straight lines designed to cover long distances. European roads are frequently upgrades to Roman cart paths, Autobahn excepted. Europeans are excellent drivers, and road racing comes naturally to them.

My work in the medical field has taken me to Europe several times (the International Conference of ABC Surgeons, etc.) where I have rented cars. The taxi drivers in Paris consider any clearance beyond a few inches to be a waste of space, and the Italians practice the philosophy that if you are going to bother starting the engine, you may as well floor it.

I've had drivers duck under me to pass on the shoulder of an exit road while yakking on their cell phones and smoking a cigarette--on a scooter.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[Dave Burchfield]

Word on the floor at PRI this weekend was that the CART deal is already done, and I certainly hope so.....sorry I missed you Gregg. We must have passed on the floor at some point. I was with the Roush people most of the time.

[bldn10]

"On the other hand I love watching single file road racing. I love seeing the drivers trying to drive the cars as hard as they can through varying types of corners, straights, braking zones and elevation changes. I like seeing them try too hard and make small mistakes here and there. And I especially like it that much more when there is real wheel to wheel racing and passing. This is why I like road racing"

Alex, I understand what you are saying but the unfortunate fact is that there are more people at Wal-Mart on Sat. morning than feel the way you do. And that is that.

To me the most exciting and watchable road racing is the slower World Challenge classes, the Runoffs, and, I'm sorry to say, NASCAR on the road courses. I want to see people taking chances and going for it. It seems to me that there are at least 2 reasons why you see single file open wheel racing. One is that locking wheels is just too damn dangerous. Another is that road courses just do not seem to be designed w/ any thought about passing zones. Put some kind of nerf bar-type protection (maybe built into or disguised as wings and side pods) on the cars to minimize launching and put them on a course w/ multiple lines and passing zones. Now that would make for some close and exciting open wheel racing!

Back to closed wheel, why not an IT class for current cars?

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by bldn10:
It seems to me that there are at least 2 reasons why you see single file open wheel racing. One is that locking wheels is just too damn dangerous. Another is that road courses just do not seem to be designed w/ any thought about passing zones.

I think the real issue is the reliance on aerodynamics for grip... These cars all make plenty of power, and the power varies from team to team. However, once the racing gets close, the guy behind is in "dirty" air, and loses the grip that got him there... There just isn't enough grip to make a pass...

That's also why, when an F1 car gets loose, it's over and they just spin... There is so much downforce that, when they get sideways and lose the airflow, it's all over...

You even see this in NASCAR at the bigger tracks, though these guys are able to use it to their advantage by getting the guy if front of them loose...

I don't know what you do to correct this, but if you watch races from the past, when the cars didn't rely so much on aero, there was certainly more driving involved and passing was possible... all on tighter, less thought out road-courses as well...



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX
http://home.comcast.net/~djjordan/Web/DJ_AV1.jpg

[planet6racing]

So, let's do it. Let's take over the CART schedule and run an IT series. Common cars, single class (say ITA, mostly because I don't want to buy another car) and equalize the class. Then, let's go wheel to wheel on national TV giving the people what they want: close racing with people taking chances. Downfarce? What's that? Aerodynamics? Huh?

Keep the rules essentially the same as IT, showing that it is a series that anyone can build and compete in. Keep it relatively low cost. Lengthen current races to ~1 hour. Run in the rain like real men (do not run if there are large puddles (e.g. deeper than 1")). Run with local yellows, and only use full course yellows if truly needed.

Keeping the speeds down by limiting it to the ITA cars should also help reduce the chances of a car going airborn and also increase the safety of the driver. Isaac devices would be required for all.


------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Dave Burchfield:
...sorry I missed you Gregg. We must have passed on the floor at some point. I was with the Roush people most of the time.

This is two years in a row now, Dave, that we've missed each other. I was hoping you might call the Omni, until I found out they oversold and I ended up at the other Omni.

We should plan now for next year.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by planet6racing:
So, let's do it. Let's take over the CART schedule and run an IT series....

...Isaac devices would be required for all.


I almost missed it Bill! Good example of why you should review the thread after you post.

Free Isaac systems to all the drivers who race in the televised CART/IT series! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[Hracer]

Originally posted by bldn10:
I understand what you are saying but the unfortunate fact is that there are more people at Wal-Mart on Sat. morning than feel the way you do.

And that's why I included Dave Despain's small editorial. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

------------------
Alex
#2 ita

[Blix]

I FEAR that the next big thing in racing is going to be the WWE/Fast & Furious?Video game type shite that they are pitching to several networks now...Imagine

TOTALLY riced out cars, in small numbers, racing on short city sets (not street course..>SETS!!!) where like drifting, they get points for things, and while you get points for finishing first you get bigger points for best burnout, craziest slide, etc.

I imagine among the "least common denominator" this will be very popular, and I fear will inspire even poorer driving on the streets.

Eric
NER SM #02

[Bill Miller]

Alex,

Thanks for posting Despain's comments. They are so on the mark that it is scary.

It's truly a shame that professional open wheel racing in this country is in the state that it is. I hate the fact that Tony G. won. But it quit being about the sport over 20 years ago. It's all about the money, even more so today.

It's also truly a shame that Bill France has a strangle hold on one of the great road courses in this country (and the world), in Watkins Glen. But then again, if there were more pro races at the Glen, there'd be less club dates!

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[gsbaker]

Speaking of Despain, this is some of the funniest stuff I've ever heard coming from a TV speaker:

http://www.myehud.com/dd_nuts.avi

[(Edit) They took it down! Here's the replacement:

"Hello. I apologize that you are not going to get to experience Dave Despain's meltdown.

This file was originally put up as a service to crapwagon.com forum members.

In time it has been linked to SO OFTEN that it is downloaded once every five seconds. I won't bother you with the tale of how much bandwidth that consumes and how kind my ISP is... but the sad truth is it's a LOT and they're not THAT kind.

Good luck finding it elsewhere... or watching the repeat when
it airs on SPEED..."

Sorry. It was off topic anyway.]

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[This message has been edited by gsbaker (edited December 09, 2003).]

[Bill Miller]

Greg,

Was that the one where they bleeped every third word? If so, I saw it, and it was totally hilarious!

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Knestis]

Offtopic schmofftopic.

http://www.nerdmafia.com/rockme01/video/despain.wmv

It's about time someone explained this issue in "plain language."

A "professional" auto racing series is only as professional as the market in which it is positioned. The total buying power of the fan base dictates whether it has any chance of being viable - in terms of generating a revenue stream for participants, whether from the gate, media contracts, series promotional contracts, or team "sponsorship." At that point, it becomes a simple revenue-expense math problem.

It is possible to make money running a short track stock car at the local track because the ratios are good and the system scales up nicely in NASCAR's premier series.

CART and high-dollar road racing series continue to struggle in the US market. TransAm, GrandAm, SPEED GT/Touring, and ALL of the CART feeder series are big-buck club racing classes with a tiny percentage of the entrants making any money. Even then, rentals are a primary source of revenues, many of the "sponsor" agreements are not made at arms length based on anticipated real returns in promotional value, and teams continue to overextend and die.

SPEED, the other networks, periodicals, and all of the other contingent beneficiaries of motorsports live and die on the financial coattails of this same reality: It is viable to broadcase WRC events ONLY to the degree that they are attractive to someone willing to buy commercial time during the program. (Thanks, Subaru.)

...and thanks, Dave.

Kirk

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Greg,

Was that the one where they bleeped every third word? If so, I saw it, and it was totally hilarious!



Bill,

Yeah, that was the one. I swear, I was laughing so hard I nearly hyperventilated.

You run a very clean forum here, and most readers know me as a representative of a company, so in the interest of maintaining decorum I won't offer any details. However, rumor has it that a good transcript can be found here (see Slyder's second post):

http://forums.atlasf1.com/showthread.php?t...ghlight=despain (http://forums.atlasf1.com/showthread.php?threadid=63868&highlight=despain)

But you didn't hear it from me... http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

Kirk,

Bingo!

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[Blix]

Interesting interview with Kevin Kalkovian, one of the primary members of OWRS, who is trying to buy the assests of CART. One of the things he mentions is that they want to have standing starts. They also plan to reduce aero grip and increase mechanical grip to make passing easier...

http://speedtv.com/commentary/9116/

A good read on the business side of pro racing.

Eric
NER SM #02