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Roy Dean
11-30-2003, 06:58 PM
Ok, so I've decided that I need a tow vehicle. Driving my racecar to hillclimbs is one thing, but I don't want to tempt fate when I start wheel to wheel racing. Racecar is an ITB Suzuki Swift GTi (competition weight is 1895 lbs). Right now my daily driver is a Subaru 2.5 RS (and it's trailer capacity is actually pretty close to the weight of the swift... but with trailer and wheels/tools/etc... it just won't cut it).

So, in trying to do this on the cheep, what does everyone suggest? Will a small pickup (such as a ranger or toyota) handle it (maybe with a V6)? Or pick up a beat up used cop car? Is a tow-dolly a decent option? I've been told that tow dolley's require the vehicle being towed to have a license plate... is this true? I never really noticed if the dolly's themselves have plates.

Regardless of what tow package I get, I'm screwed on space. Only a 2 car garage (one spot for the swift, one for the impreza), no room for a dolly/trailer/tow vehicle. I can park a tow vehicle on the street, but not a trailer/dolly. I'll have to figure that problem out for myself. Anyhoo, any suggestions?

--Roy

Quickshoe
11-30-2003, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by Roy Dean:
So, in trying to do this on the cheep, what does everyone suggest?

There have been lots of prior posts on this topic. Lots of various ideas of what's required.

I've been told that tow dolley's require the vehicle being towed to have a license plate... is this true?

Varies by state. California requires anything with wheels on the ground to be currently registered.

Regardless of what tow package I get, I'm screwed on space. Only a 2 car garage (one spot for the swift, one for the impreza), no room for a dolly/trailer/tow vehicle.

Priorities. Sell the Impreza, buy a reliable truck/van/RV...whatever you decide. Renting a trailer won't be cost effective for very long. Storing a trailer in So. California can get pricey.

Perhaps you can find a local racer with a big trailer/tow vehicle and offer to pay for all the fuel and help prep their race car prior to the race in exchange for a tow to and from...

lateapex911
11-30-2003, 10:29 PM
If you can wrangle the search function here, you willfind that this has been discussed at length.

That said, tow dollys suck, as most states require the towed vehicle to be tagged, and the towed car is still on the ground! It hardly acheives your objective, which is to get home when the unthinkable occurs. If you bend the rear you're out of luck. Besides, a used open trailer isn't that much more than a dolly. And, all it takes is an errant 2 x 4 to do serious damage to a tow dollied car.

Used open trailers can be had in your area for about a thou, and weigh about 1500 lbs.

The cheapest tow vehicle will be a used van, cuz they're just so unromantic! But, they hold lots of stuff, have big engines and are dry in the rain. Useful for moving too! If you go the V8 route, that or a pickup is the best choice.

Of course, get a reliable van, because working on that engine just sucks!

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

Greg Amy
11-30-2003, 10:53 PM
The answer: a used 1-ton Ford E-350 V-8 diesel van. Ask the NE ARRC Caravan boys who got the best fuel mileage of the bunch (30-50% better on average) while filling it with cheaper fuel (10-15% cheaper on average) while having 25-100% longer range (at the same speeds) while hauling more "stuff", plus who had a makeshift bed in the back for the crew chief while hauling home all that stuff plus two complete longblock engines (one totaled, one borrowed)...you don't HAVE to choose orange if you don't want...

Of course, if you're flush, then the ultimate answer is Serra's borrowed camper powered by the Ford Powerstroke V-8 turbodiesel...

JeffYoung
11-30-2003, 11:08 PM
All good advice. The problem is those vans and V8 pickups are Merican. They break. Regularly. Maybe not critical stuff, but you will be constantly repairing a mid 90s Ford/Dodge/Chevy van or pickup truck. Trannys can last as little as 70 or 80k. Motors, some go 200k, some 80k. Air cond, electrics, it can be a nightmare (I'm speaking from experience, I have a 99 Burb that tows a ton -- its a454 and has plenty of room, but something breaks once a quarter like clockwork).

Your rig is light. If you do it right, you will be at or less than 4,000 lbs. If I were you, and I didn't plan on moving "up" in car, I'd get a Toyota T100 with a camper shell, or possibly an early Tundra with a V8. These trucks don't haul like Merican iron, but they can tow your rig and they don't break. People hate T100s, you can get one cheap. Early Tundras might be in the $8 to 10k range, but you can drive it every day and it will run 200k like a damn Camry.

If I had to live with the truck every day, and had a rig of your size, that's what I would do.

whenry
12-01-2003, 09:53 AM
Your lucky. With a light race car and few spares, the stress on your tow rig is not severe. I started in Sports Renault and a Safari 4.3 van and went all over the Southeast racing. When I switched to the RX3 and 18 ft trailer with spare parts and tires, I "upgraded" to the 454 'Burb and as was said earlier, the damn thing broke regularly( my favorite time was the water pump which was so new and rare that no parts place had one on a Sunday when I had a paddock full of GM mechanics to help change it out; got to stay overnight and have the GM dealer do it)
My preference is Ford but anything with a 5000# tow rating will work for you at this stage.
I will warn you that tow vehicles may be the most controversial issue in racing so the flaming may be brutal.

whenry
12-01-2003, 09:56 AM
Oh yeah, I forgot to say that with racing your priorities will change. I sold the 911 to buy the race car and the Quattro to buy the van. Get used to it. I have a V10 Excursion in the driveway and usually drive old RX7 or Miata as my driver. I keep reminding myself that I could probably have a ZO6 if I could forget racing. Nahhhhhhhhh

gran racing
12-01-2003, 01:35 PM
I have to disagree with the tow dolly stinking... While I totally agree that a trailer is better (in case of accident, don't have any of the race car on the ground, ect) a tow dolly is not horrible. I have been using a dolly for the past year. Yes, most states do require that the car being towed has a plate on it. I have the race car with theft insurance only to keep the plate. Not such a bad thing anyway. I also pay about $10 a year for window coverage which I have taken advantage of. Many states do not require the dolly to have tags assuming a car is always on the dolly. The dolly becomes a part of the vehicle being towed. If you tow the dolly without a vehicle on it, it then needs tags.

It is very light (~ 500 lbs) and easy to store due to its size. It is an easy tow. When I need to move it, I can do it with out hooking it up to a vehicle.

Tow dollys can be found for about $450 - 500 in good shape. What is the tow rating for the Subaru? Not that you would want to do this, but I towed my 2,450 lb car with a tow vehicle that was rated for 2,000 lbs. Surprisingly it did very well.

Jake, Mr. Engineer, tell him about tow ratings versus what it can actually safely tow...

SpeedyDave
12-01-2003, 02:14 PM
There are other considerations as well..
For me, I live in a city, which means parking is tough. I ended up getting a used Toyota 4runner, because it will tow the car (ok maybe it'll struggle a bit over mountains) haul people, and stuff, and as important - will FIT in parking spaces and garages. Very very important for us.
The giant vans and such are great if you've got the room to store them....

planet6racing
12-01-2003, 02:41 PM
I towed with a dolly behind my E-150 van before I upgraded to my 20' open trailer. It was always exciting (at least to me). I always had a crew member behind me with the understanding that, should the car leave the dolly, it was their responsibility to put the car into the ditch or tree on the right side of the road and not let it cross to the left. All in all, it wasn't too bad, but the full trailer does make thing a lot nicer (there's something about have 6 straps holding the car versus 3...).

My one recommendation: brakes. Get a trailer (no matter what kind) with good brakes. You'll be thankful the first time crossing Indiana and a not too smart driver merges onto the interstate right in front of you at ~30 mph and you can't move left because there is a freight train of traffic already there.

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

Roy Dean
12-01-2003, 06:17 PM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Priorities. Sell the Impreza, buy a reliable truck/van/RV</font>

Not an option. I'd sooner get rid of my race car than be forced to drive a pickup/suv as a daily driver. I drove a pickup daily driver for 8 years... I'm never going back.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">That said, tow dollys suck, as most states require the towed vehicle to be tagged, and the towed car is still on the ground! It hardly acheives your objective, which is to get home when the unthinkable occurs. If you bend the rear you're out of luck. </font>

I CAN tow the front end. Sure, it's not desirable (and I'd have to lock the wheel somehow), but it COULD be done (even if I do mess up the tranny, I've got spares). Besides, if I mess up the car so bad that a dolley won't cut bringing it home, I think I've got more severe problems. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif


Jake, Mr. Engineer, tell him about tow ratings versus what it can actually safely tow...


Well, I am and engineer, and my experience says towing a car of any weight with a unibody car (especially a compact) is a BAD idea. I had a friend who used to tow a 1200 lb caterham super 7 on an open trailer with a BMW 318ti.... his diff (or was it rear cross member) got all messed up because of it. Unibody cars just cant handle real tow loads.

At this point, money isn't really a huge concern (even though I have none). Good thing is I have zero debt, so I can finance a nice truck or something. I, too, was thinking about a tundra or maybe even a used F150. But the problem still comes up as where the hell should I store the trailer? I'm seriously considering buying a trailer and letting my friend keep it at his shop (and use it for his rally car), with me snatching it for several events a year. Meh. I'll just keep thinking... car is out of commission until february, so I've got time. Thanks for the input.

Team Rocket
12-01-2003, 06:20 PM
I also towed with a tow dolly for years (Dodge Caravan pulling a Rabbit). Best thing about it: I could remove the ramps and stand the dolly straight up on its wheels in the corner of my garage. Very convenient!

Having said all this, I moved to a trailer as soon as I could. Towing a dolly (without its own brakes) with a vehicle not really intended for towing (like a Caravan) wreaks heck on the tow vehicle. I went through plenty of brake pads, rotors, calipers and tie rod ends. Coming down the hill at Watkins Glen was the worst.

Jim

------------------
Jim
Black Rabbit Racing, #154

Quickshoe
12-01-2003, 09:13 PM
Roy,

I was right about the priorities, Just wrong about what yours would be http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

If a truck/suv is out of the question as a daily driver, then you need to address your storage problem. Since money, or lack thereof, isn't a big concern (the fact you aren't in debt puts you ahead of many) buy the truck/van/suv/RV whatever. Buy the trailer and store them both at the friends.

One note of caution. Trailers used by rally teams don't stay pretty very long. Pulling out of service at 2:30am to drive up a narrow, twisty, dark mountain road in an attempt to recover the broken rally car can be bad on equipment.

http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/confused.gif Quit racing, instead of driving a truck everyday??? http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/confused.gif The race car vs. SUV I almost understand.

eh_tony!!!
12-02-2003, 12:15 AM
Point is, probably anything in a large mini-van to SUV will tow ok. I have had some friends that have had Ex-cop cars as well. Problem there is relatively light weight, low height, and soft suspension. Read... if you get into a jam, don't depend on the vehicle capabilities to get you out.
I have used an Astro for some years and it is mediocre, not bad, but not great. I've also towed with a 95 Isuzu rodeo. way better than the Astro except one area (less power, but had a tranny cooler etc).. brakes. Even with the 4 wheel disc, the Isuzu was lacking.
I now have a PSD excursion and pay $30/month for ourdoor parking of the trailer. It is a deal I can live with.
So, if you can budget say, $350-400/month for the tow vehicle, take 30-50 out and pay for storage of a decent trailer (enclosed or open). You'll have less stress cause of it.

Figure this into the equation.
Trip to the track is usually fine (except your behind schedule 90% of the time). On the way back, your tired, decompresing from the weekend, and want to be back for Monday work. Now you get into a dark rainstorm in traffic. Not the time to have an already white knuckled tow rig. It's not that you won't make in the first 100 times, but you'll be more rested and there's always that 101st tie out there looming.

So, what could you live with for a daily driver?? Caravan? Murano? New Dakota? 1998 Country Estate wagon?

BTW. If you go the open trailer route, electric brakes are a real savior. Air shocks in the rear help alot as well.

Also, don't forget where you are now and where your obsession will take you. It isn't a far journey from "just the car and a few tools" to "the car and a few spares" to "spare tranny, 2 dry's and rains, tent, grill, air compressor, generator, Ezup, so on and so on." ................ don't think it can't happen to you.. lol

eh_tony!!!
12-02-2003, 12:24 AM
PS. forget that don't buy Merican crap...
I have an Astro with 265K on it that will testify otherwise. The Ex also has 70K on it ($0 in repairs), Saturn with 125K, etc.
3.4 and tundras had huge head gasket problems. Acura Legends sludging up after 60K. Camry's with carbon clogged intakes.

Key here is to research what you buy.

My fav was a news skit on one of the networks where a guy was saying (upon the announcement of Ford cancelling the Ex), "I'd never buy one of those, I have 260 hp and get 19 MPG". Well, I had 250/525 lb/ft (now about 375/720), and still get 21.5 MPG highway. Hell, even the full size Tahoe can avg 20 on the highway.

JeffYoung
12-02-2003, 04:06 AM
Ok, don't buy SOME Merican crap. Like any pre-2001 GM product.

Toyotas have problems too, but the overwhelming evidence is you are going to get a lot more trouble free miles, on average, out of a Toyota than you are a Chevy or a Ford or a Dodge.

OTLimit
12-02-2003, 10:58 AM
What scares me the most about you guys who think you can tow your little open trailer or tow dolly and your race car with a smaller vehicle is that you never look at the TOTAL weight of the rig. BTW, after you go to a few races and start throwing in more spares, reweigh everything then, and tell me it's still safe.

A trip across a scale at your local truck stop can be an enlightening experience and will cost you just a few bucks.

Believe me, we have been there and done that with just about every conceivable scary trip that you can think of. Ask Chris about seeing the whole side of his race car out the back window. That's why our tow vehicle keeps getting bigger as he keeps hauling more crap to the track. Hopefully the TowMaster15000 will make it's debut in the spring.

Taking risks to get your car to the track is not smart.

------------------
Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

moliver
12-02-2003, 12:50 PM
Hey Roy:

I think you need to buy a full size pick-up truck for a tow vehicle.....that way you can drop off that FSAE car for Andy!!

Good excuse to visit Chicago too.

Mike
eagerly waiting to see if I fit in the car too!!

cherokee
12-02-2003, 01:36 PM
I would also suggest that you not skimp on insurance. I tow with an old RV so it is not used that much and it does not cost much to crank up the coverage on the tow vehicle AND trailer. Think how much damage that thing could do, there are lots of people that will jump in front of you when towing...Do your reasearch on the insurance rates, for me the enclosed trailer was cheaper to insure then the open trailer the ins. company told me they have less claims on enclosed trailers thus the cheaper rate.

Roy Dean
12-02-2003, 11:07 PM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Buy the trailer and store them both at the friends.</font>

Thats not a problem. I have a two car garage. Swift and Impreza in the garage. Tow vehicle parked out front on street or in the alley behind my house.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Quit racing, instead of driving a truck everyday???</font>

Yup. NEVER GOING BACK. Ever.


Also, don't forget where you are now and where your obsession will take you. It isn't a far journey from "just the car and a few tools" to "the car and a few spares" to "spare tranny, 2 dry's and rains, tent, grill, air compressor, generator, Ezup, so on and so on." ................ don't think it can't happen to you.. lol


It already has. At one hill climb, I had a full set of wheels/tires, large 2 ton jack (not the aluminum one... the old school northern hydraulic cast iron one), air tank, bag with safety gear, milk crate with some fluids and spares, tool box, and a 10x10 EZ-UP (the 75 lb steel version)... all crammed into the swift. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Taking risks to get your car to the track is not smart.</font>

I agree. I'm just trying to find a happy medium between safety, convenience, and co$t.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">that way you can drop off that FSAE car for Andy!!</font>

How about you tell him to get off his lazy butt and return my emails. The car is ready to go, hell it'll fit in the back of a ranger or s10. If you're more than 20 or so lbs bigger than andy, your going to have a tight squeeze (specifically, shifting will be a problem). But I'm sure Andy will finally fix that problem. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I would also suggest that you not skimp on insurance.</font>

Good call. How much is trailer insurance, anyway???

eh_tony!!!
12-03-2003, 12:07 AM
Roy,
You certainly are considering all the windfalls/pitfalls. Whatever you choose, I'm sure will be a well educated decision.

Give us a clue though, what WOULD you drive that could tow and still be a daily??

I see that Parisienne wagon woody in your future....

All kidding aside, here are a fe logical thoughts, pickup or SUV, but sporty

F-150 Lightning - say one at an auction with 68k go for 14.3. 360 hp can't be bad
GMC Syclone or Typhoon - really cool if you can find one not Yo'd
Impala SS - The RWD one

Or, since you have 0 debt, opt for the Cayenne Turbo.....

[This message has been edited by eh_tony!!! (edited December 02, 2003).]

gsbaker
12-03-2003, 06:35 AM
Buick Roadmaster Wagon. 455CID, cushy interior, soft springs and a real frame. Now you're talkin'!

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[This message has been edited by gsbaker (edited December 03, 2003).]

whenry
12-03-2003, 09:28 AM
None of the "trucks" that you cite have any real towing capacity. Interestingly, neither will the new Dodge V-10 hotrod truck according to Autoweek.
It is a tough choice and I have found myself on several occasions driving the tow vehicle to work when I was between cheap daily drivers. Luckily it is pretty easy to find a good but cheap Miata, RX7, MR2 or such that I can drive on a daily basis.

eh_tony!!!
12-03-2003, 10:01 AM
I would argue with that Whenry. IIRC the Lightning can tow a rated 5000 lbs. In fact, it comes standard with a class III tow package. (according to a review)

Additionally, I'm quite confident that it is underrated as the regular F150 can haul 7000 or so.
Lightning vs F150.
More power, stronger tranny, better brakes..

The limiting factor is probably the rear suspension rate/travel. So put some add-a-leafs, air bags, etc back there if you need to get over 5000.

Oh yeah, and trailer brakes.

Correct call on the typhoon towing.. I had forgotten that. Then again they are hand grenades anyway.

There used to be a guy down here in NC that towed with an old ambulance (the gostbusters one). I've also seen a hearse.

jc836
12-03-2003, 10:27 AM
Memories of a hearse-yes indeed a friend in Pittsburgh actually towed his Sprite with one in the '60s. Big wagons and even El Caminos and Rancheros can be used to tow with if set up properly. A well known East Coast Cobra 427 driver used a Caddy with a torsion type hitch to tow a huge open trailer in the '60s. Can be done if done right.
Today's trucks are a different breed. Be very careful , as others have noted, about capacity. I had the unfortunate experience with our brand new Dakota of finding out how little they really can haul. I bought the truck because it is rated for 6010 total-including the tongue weight. It sank over 3" from the getgo and stayed there. Chrysler had to replace the springs-but refused to put a heavy-duty set on (they claim it is not in the parts book). The only warranty acceptable substitute is to go with Timbren bumpstops to add 1k of capacity. Be sure to balance the trailer for about 300-500 pounds on the ball. Our rig is now riding just fine with the 4.7 under the hood. A 5.9 would have been nicer <G>. The mention of the Lightning or SRT-10 is a different matter as they are designed more as sport trucks than full tow setups. The 2003 Dakota RT was a nice high output truck-but was lowered at the factory-which makes towing a race trailer interesting. The full size Ram or F-150 is better suited to a closed trailer and average race car versus our open aluminum trailer and CRX.
Our solution was and is not cheap-wish I could have done a Big bore Bronco, more practical in winter they say.
Just some thoughts....

------------------
Grandpa's toys-modded suspensions and a few other tweaks
'89 CRX Si-SCCA ITA #99
'99 Prelude=a sweet song
'03 Dodge Dakota Club Cab V8-Patriot Blue gonna tow

[This message has been edited by jc836 (edited December 03, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by jc836 (edited December 03, 2003).]

Roy Dean
12-03-2003, 05:26 PM
what can I live with as a daily driver? Well, it has to be easy to drive and park in Manhattan (I have friends and relatives there), and it's got to have AWD. That leaves me with anything from Subaru, a few audi's, a bmw, some vw's, maybe a MB or two, Aero's, Matrix's (fake AWD, imo), etc.

In other words, I plan on driving my RS into the ground before I buy a new daily driver.

Well, I've got time, so I'll see what deals pop up.

planet6racing
12-03-2003, 05:42 PM
I hate to say it, but a Ford F-350 Super Duty crew cab diesel meets all of your requirements!

Easy to drive: Heck yeah! If anything gets in your way, you don't need to stop. They'll move (one way or another!)

Easy to park: Can you say 700 ft*lbf of torque (or something like that)? You can easily make a parking spot big enough for yourself.

AWD: Well 4wd is pretty close and essentially serves the same purpose...

So, as you can see, there really is no reason to limit yourself to those smaller, wussy cars! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif


------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

Dave Zaslow
12-04-2003, 08:32 AM
Roy,

I live in Manhattan as does my daily driver. It costs a fortune to park the dd in a parking garage along with 300 others (don't ask, I've paid less for my apartment rent). I take the subway to work and only use the dd on weekends. I would drive my dd (88 Integra)to the car, stored 15 minutes away in NJ, and then drive the racecar to the track. My race car and trailer now live in someones backyard 45 minutes from home. After 5 years I decided that renting a truck and trailer to tow to distant tracks was getting very old. I borrowed a friend's V6 S-10 and trailer for a trip to the Glen and hated the way the rear yanked the front around. Living where I do I could only have one dd. I assessed my needs and decided that keeping the total car/trailer weight down was important as it would require less of a tow vehicle. I decided on a Trailex aluminum trailer (750 lbs.) pulled by a Cherokee with a 4.0 six cyl. This is a fantastic combo for a 2000 lb. car with 300 lbs. of stuff in it. It would do 70+ easily over the steepest grades between NYC and Pocono or Watkins Glen. I have surge brakes (KISS) and occasionally heavy braking caused some swerve, but never out of control. After 100K miles on the Cherokee I could not resist Jeeps leftover sales and got a Grand Cherokee with the 4.7 eight cyl. Ecstasy. This combo is terriffic. I do not need to take my entire garage with me, so the load is reasonable. I don't have a garage anyway. The Jeep is compact, can be found with a tow package factory installed, is AWD for winter shits and grins, and doesn't gulp gas like pick-ups. Take a look at Trailex.com. The extra cost of such a trailer is (IMHO) offset by not needing to go to the 'burban sized vehicles.

Dave Z

[quote]Originally posted by Roy Dean:
[B]what can I live with as a daily driver? Well, it has to be easy to drive and park in Manhattan (I have friends and relatives there), and it's got to have AWD.

Chris Eastwood
12-04-2003, 10:33 AM
What do you all think about a 4runner or Durango with a big V-8 as a tow vechical? I would be towing a little CRX in a closed trailer.

whenry
12-04-2003, 11:03 AM
Check the box weight of the enclosed trailer. My WellsCargo was over 3000# plus racecar(SM now) plus spares plus stuff. My total weight is just under 8000# and that does not include passengers, baggage, cooler, and the other stuff that we take for a race weekend. I unfortunately have to cross mtns any way that I go to a racetrack which just increases the stress on tow vehicle. I've had vans, 'Burbs, Expeditions and now V-10 Excursion. I would love to have the PSD but could not justify the extra $10k difference(the used market is real soft on the V-10) Excess towing capacity is great. And much safer.

jc836
12-04-2003, 11:05 AM
A "little CRX" in an enclosed trailer of what sizeI might ask. The Durango with the big V8 will do fine with a 20' trailer open or enclosed. Our Dakota is the same basic truck and pulls our little CRX on a 20" open aluminum trailer to Pocono and The Glen with minimal difficulty-ther is only 1 hill that it slows down on and that is on the way home <G>. Consider what the Durango is rated for and what it will actually weigh. The trailer poses its own issues depending on size. If you go smaller than 24 feet be warned that the room inside diminishes accordingly. More food for thought.

------------------
Grandpa's toys-modded suspensions and a few other tweaks
'89 CRX Si-SCCA ITA #99
'99 Prelude=a sweet song
'03 Dodge Dakota Club Cab V8-Patriot Blue gonna tow

JIgou
12-04-2003, 12:19 PM
If you can swing it, the new Durango's (made it bigger) towing capacity is listed at 8950. For reference, current 1500 Ram trucks are listed at between 8400 and 8600.

2500 Ram is 12,900.
Excursion is 11,000.
2500 Suburban is 9600 with 6L engine, 12000 with 8.1 L engine

(OK, so those are a little bigger than you want...)

Yes, I've been shopping. This stuff happens to be on a piece of paper beside my desk.

Jarrod

joeg
12-04-2003, 01:22 PM
Can you say HEMI....yeah!

I have used Dakotas since 1991. Since I like to carry fuel to the track, an SUV (Durango) is out of the question.

The Dakotas are a perfect size for a D/D and a Tow Vehicle. (I suppose the Big Toyota is equivalent but when we're talking a tow rig we're talking real 'Merican!)

The only problem with them is that they are Chryslers.

I have looked elsewhere, but my next tow vehicle will be another Dakota.

Good luck!

cherokee
12-04-2003, 01:50 PM
You forgot Dodge and Chrysler are not American...they are German http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Greg Gauper
12-04-2003, 06:03 PM
I was amazed at the towing capacity of my '93 Dakota with the base 3.9 V6 and 5-speed. It was a daily driver and towed 8-10 times a year, mostly to Blackhawk & Road America, but I made occasional trips to the other side of the pond.

But I wasn't impressed with the electrical system (I think I had the only Dodge with Lucas parts http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif) or the paint (it suffered from the peeling paint syndrome that plagued a lot of cars from late 80's/early 90's) or the fuel pumps (I was on my third pump).

I figured for occasional towing duty, I was fine. I used to get tired very easily when towing longer distances (4 hours or more) and found that a set of helper springs (the $30 type that clamp on to the axle) made a world of difference in the handling while towing. I found I didn't get nearly as tired with the helper springs. They only took 5 minutes to install so I only bolted them in before I packed for a race weekend. They were a little too stiff for everyday driving and made the truck kinda tail happy when wet.

Brakes were kinda marginal even with electric trailer brakes, but I found that upgrading to a premium set of aftermarket pads from Autozone took car of that problem.

My wife wanted me to upgrade tow vehicles this summer. I lucked into a '89 Suburban with a big block motor w/FI that had 97K miles for $2500. Bought it from a friend who picked it up four years ago and he only put 10K miles on it to tow his boat with. Needless to say, the increase in torque and towing capacity (it's kinda cool winning the drag races from the toll booths), plus the ability to keep everything locked up inside is wonderful.

The gas mileage sucks, but since I only use it for towing and occasional travel (3 or 4 times a month in the off season) this isn't an issue. My 'Towing' gas mileage is only 1 MPG worse than it was with the Dakota which was pretty effecient as a DD but drank heavily when towing.

[This message has been edited by Greg Gauper (edited December 04, 2003).]

Team Rocket
12-04-2003, 06:32 PM
I've towed for the past 2 years with a V8 Durango that has the factory installed tow package and it has been great. I pull a Rabbit and a 15 foot open trailer that has no center plates. The trailer weighs 1300 lbs; so total tow weight is probably in the 3700-3800lb range, depending on how much stuff I bring along.

The tow from Boston to Summit used to be a grind. Now it's a piece of cake!

Jim

joeg
12-05-2003, 09:22 AM
[quote]Originally posted by cherokee:
[B]You forgot Dodge and Chrysler are not American...they are German


And Mercedes is American?

nlevine
12-05-2003, 11:44 AM
Roy - I was in the same situation 6 years ago and bought a two-year-old (at the time) Jeep Grand Cherokee with a 5.2l V-8. I tow a 1st generation Honda CRX (not that much heavier than the Swift) on a two-axle open trailer. I've had no problems going through the Berkshires on the way to LRP, and the Jeep's small enough to have been used as a daily driver for much of the last 6 years (ok, so I broke down and bought myslef a new MINI for fun this year). My only other advice is to get a weight-distributing hitch for the set-up and a good trailer-brake controller. With my set-up, I can tow at 75 MPH all day - nicely balanced, no sway from the trailer. The trailer has a tire rack and a pickup-truck tool-box mounted on it, so all the heavy stuff (jack, jack-stand, tires) all live on the trailer and not in the Jeep.

-noam

almracing
12-05-2003, 11:52 AM
I too had a 6 cyl truck (4-Runner) to tow an open trailer. It was fun until I drove up a long hill on the way to LRP. Started at the bottom of the hill doing 55... 1/2 mile later doing 25 at the top.

I now have a GMC Suburban 2500. Great tow/crew/stuff vehicle. I bought a '99 used. They are a great bargin... the 2000's are about 10K more (new engine and body syle.)

I now tow a 24' enclosed trailer and barely know it is there.

Anthony R.
NER - ITA #86
Honda CRX Si

Roy Dean
12-08-2003, 09:49 AM
Thanks for all the input, guys. From what I've heard here (and from some other information I've gotten, see below), I'm probably going to buy a year or two old full size pickup. A friend has volunteered to let me keep the trailer at his place.

-----
If I were you I'd look ahead a little. One day you may have a bigger/
heavier race car or will undoubtedly be asked by a friend to tow some
regular car. Those little trucks work to tow short distances but they really
aren't up to the task on a regualr basis. Don't looking only at the engine
as the determining factor of a suitable vehicle. These are the important
things. Vehicle weight: heavier is better cause the trailer will make up a
smaller portion of the CVW or combined vehicle weight. This also contributes
to a heavier axle, bigger brakes, tranny coolers and heavier chassis. Most
trucks can tow more than their weight but this is best left to good towing
equipment like goosenck trailers/ air shocks/ load distributing hitches/etc.
If your trailer weighs in less than your truck, your towing will go much
easier. Wheelbase: longer wheel base makes for a more stable weave free
ride. If you get a small truck the bitch will weave at speed. Sure you may
have enough engine to tow at 75-70mph but the weave will make the towing
scarier than the track time. Rear overhang: very important especially if
you are looking at a small (midsize is the same) truck. The shorter the
overhang the closer the hitch is to the axle. This is important since this
will have a huge effect on the trailer's tendance to swing out in a turn,
which contributes to weave. The longer the wheelbase, the long the
acceptable amount of rear overhang is tolerable. This also affects the
amount the front end of the truck lifts with the weight of the trailer.
Example of the worst choice possible: Ford Bronco2.
Just so you know: a typical 16' car trailer weighs in around 1500 lbs. 14'
would be better but they are hard to find. So you need to assume you will
be towing 3300 lbs and an extra 200-300 lbs of gear for a weekend. BTW
Beware of Chrapsler trannys. I hear that the ones on the full sized Rams are
sh!t.

whenry
12-08-2003, 12:40 PM
Like we all said, the choices that you have to make to race are not all very pretty but necessary. Towing is the most dangerous part of racing(we can all tell stories)and excess towing capacity is essential imo. I am warped due to the terrain that I live in and the need to tow at least 4 hrs to get to a race track(and most are in the 7 hr range) on either I-75/40/85/26. The shortest tow(to Atlanta) is the hardest and most stressful due to the traffic on I-75 and around Atlanta, especially on Friday afternoons. It just makes it worse that Nashville Superspeedway is only 2 hrs away but not SCCA approved.