Responsibility

[JWiley]

This post is prompted by an incident at the ARRC, but has been of growing concern to me for a good while now. I drive an ex-ITD MG Midget in ITC, simply because that's the only place for us now without investing a lot more money in the car. We are of course slower than about 90% of the field, and make a conserted effort to stay out of other competitor's "racing room" by waving them by. The incident at the ARRC occurred in Turn 5 on the 3rd lap of the first qualifying session (ie, cool weather, cold tires, cold brains). I was aware that an "here-to-be-un-named" driver in an ITB was approaching thru the esses, but not that closely. I set up for 5 on the outside curbing, turned across to the inside apex, and was broadsided by this guy trying to get inside me; not brutal contact, but full-length scrape and dent. I protested the incident, was promptly heard by the SOM Court, and was astounded to be be found "equally at fault".

Here's what troubles me-- the growing number of drivers who seen to leave their brains (along with any sense of responsibility) in the paddock when they set wheels to track, and forget that this is supposed to be amateur racing. I can't count the number of times I have seen dangerous, banzai moves that risk life and equipment, and that's just in meaningless practice sessions! This is what many drivers don't seem to grasp: the fact that you are behind a slower car does not grant you the right to pass at will; the car that has the line has the line, and if you have to wait to make a sane pass, then you wait. My incident at Turn 5
involved another driver who I doubt has had much experience at difficult-to-learn Road Atlanta, which would indicate additional caution while learning the track. Fat chance.

At the Labor Day races at RA a month earlier, my partner was banzaied in the esses in the closing laps by a Spec Miata
making a totally meaningless pass in a place where you don't even try meaningful passes. Since there was no room to pass, the Miata ended up in the grass on the outside, where he kicked up an old driveshaft hidden in the grass; it bounced out onto the track, up across our fender and hood, and smashed the driver's side windshield. Does anybody out there lack the imagination to visualize the results if this shaft had happened to have been "spear" oriented? My friend would be dead.

The point of this diatribe is to ask those of you that we share the track with to be aware that there are consequences to what you do out there. You do not have the right to indulge your Speed Racer fantasies at the expense of your fellow competitors' equipment, or, ultimately, lives. We all have the right to use the racetrack, drive the line, and have fun; the only way this can happen is if you can trust the sanity of your fellow drivers, and,
sadly, this seems to be a dwindling expectation.

Am I alone in this opinion?


James Wiley
ITC #72 , Atlanta Region

[pgipson]

No, you are not.

4 weeks ago I was hit on drivers side going into the tightest turn at Firebird, by a driver that had spun at least twice already. I had moved to the outside of the turn to give him plenty of room as I anticipated that he would try to get by me at that point and I was 1 lap up on him (so it was not for position and we had 1 lap left). He locked up the brakes and skidded into my RX7 hard enough to bend the axle housing, the axle, and the housing mounts. Not to mention the body damage and the bent Circle wheel.

The issue certainly isn't as common for our Spec RX7 class as it once was, but we still have one or two people that think racing for 12th means you are free to destroy cars.

In my case, I filed a protest and it was upheld with a 3 race probabtion of the other driver. This was not the first time I had seen similar out of control driving from this person. And I talked to some other drivers to validate what I was going to do. But it was the first time I had ever protested another driver. I didn't enjoy it. And I didn't do it for vindictive reasons. I wanted the driver to understand that it is not ok to drive over your head and put other people or cars at risk. You want to drive your car into the guardrail at 65 mph go ahead. Don't try to use me as a cushion.

It was complicated since the corner didn't call the contact so the Chief Steward was essentially powerless to do anything.
So I did.

[RSTPerformance]

In my opinion I think that a slower car who is being lapped (whether broken or not) needs to respect the faster cars. I also think that the faster cars need to respect the slower cars. I actually think in a perfect world that whoever is actually "in a race" against another car should be the "owner" of the track. By this I mean those that are not in a race (by themselves) should stay out of the way (weather they are faster or slower).

My car has been broken many many times where it hasn't allowed me to rev over 4,500rpm. This causes slow straightway speed but does not effect the corner speed (generally you would downshift and be around 3,000 RPM). What happens then is faster cars approach and close in fast but then in the turns I see wide faces as I stay beside them all the way through the turn. I always leave plenty of room to pass on the inside and/or outside, I always pointed and did my best to stay out of the way. Last year people lost races because they did not watch the point by and did not pay attention to how slow I was going, on the other hand on weekends where my car is fast I have had issues with slower cars (no names but it was a silver BMW at the NARRC Runoffs at lime Rock, he is also on the front cover of the last Pit Talk). This particular driver was clue-less to what the faster cars were doing, and hogged the track risking my 3rd place position. He almost cost me the race, and he was not happy with me after the race, but if had had said anything to me I would have given him a few words about risking my life/race/car.

I have been on both sides of the fence and I am sorry to say, but I think it is the slower cars responsibility (gentleman’s agreement) to leave room for a faster car (especially one in a dual with another car) to pass you anywhere on the track (even in the middle of a turn). The only time I think this rule should be changed is in practice/qualifying, and if the slower car is actually in a wheel to wheel dual with someone else that is also slow.

At the ARRC I witnessed (and caught on video) a yellow ITC MG(?) that cut off a faster ITB VW heading onto the main straight. They made contact at the apex (side on side). The VW made it through unaffected, but the MG(?) didn't. It spun all the way to the start finish line and made an amazing save without hitting any walls, however that incident should have been avoided as the MG(?) should have left room on the inside for the lapping cars.

Just my .02cents

Raymond "guess it depends on the situation" Blethen

PS: to me a race for last is just as important, if not more important than a race for 1st. (Its still ok to finish 2nd but it really stinks to finish last http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif)

PSS: I have mentioned this before but it is related- I hate watching the "big bore" races where you have very fast cars but moron drivers who get in the way of lap traffic cause they think they have the whole track and are obliviose to what is going on around them...

Oh this does have an all too familiar ring to me, similar deal, im ITA, ITB GETTING LAPPED decides to "hang onto" whatever meaningless position it had, loses it right in front of me in mid corner, I missed it but the guy behind me tatered her, they took her off on a stretcher. 2 months later, SAME CAR starts behind me, traffic is still backed up on 2nd lap and she dosnt even brake for the corner, and slides sideways across my bow and continues off into the weeds narrowly missing my front end, im done, im not racing with her any more. I seen way too many incidences like this, this season and it was one of the determining factors in pushing to finish my EP car.

[gran racing]

The main point here is that people need to use common sense. Unfortunately I am on the slower end of the SCCA ITA spectrum. I do try to "get out of the way" for the faster cars. If there are two faster cars racing, I'll try not to give an advantage to either of the two cars (usually - there are always exceptions). But, at the same time it does neither car much good to be side to side on some turns and cause both cars to slow down considerably and both lose a great deal of time.

During the first few races of this season (my rookie year) I spent too much time concentrating on letting the faster guys by. Of course I still make it a point to let the faster cars / leaders by, but still run my own race. The faster car needs to make the pass safely.

I've also been fortunate to be on the other side of the spectrum with a local racing club in new england (EMRA). With this club, my car is classified where I can compete - I actually happen be one of the faster cars out there. So I have been able to experience it from both sides.

I will say that people that are running in the front have to realize that people running behind them (even several cars back) are still are racing and care about their position. My poor friend Jake - I could be running 20th place out of 30 cars and he could be in 19th place...I still car really care about beating him and some of the other people I have developed rivalries with.

Basically it comes down to giving each other respect out on the track. If you are a faster car and respect me and my car out there, I'll do the same. If you do some really silly / unnecessary things, I have no problem accidently getting in the way a bit next time you come around or the next race. Hopefully everyone can give each other racing room as we all are only racing for fun. When we start racing for more than some piece of plastic, then we'll talk again.

NER ITA #13
Yellow Prelude si

[This message has been edited by gran racing (edited November 18, 2003).]

[CaptainWho]

As a corner worker, I don't really care who's faster. If you're faster and you do something stupid I'm calling you in. If you're slower and you do something stupid, I'm calling you in. If you're working a corner when I do something stupid on track, I expect you to call me in whether I'm faster or slower, running for first or not-last. We're racing for a frickin' $20 plastic trophy and risking lives doing it. Safety first.

[joeg]

Mr. Wiley--You are not alone. People just need to THINK and remember this is not pro-racing.

However,one of the problems is not knowing your fellow members of your race group-and them not knowing you. This knowledge takes a bit of time to acquire and it would be tough to have it for a well subscribed event like the ARRC.

[whenry]

It is interesting that many of the cited events involve cars that are racing in different classes. I would consider it to be failure on my part to get involved in an incident where I was racing "balls out" with a car in a different class. Both need to respect the other and give room but when you consider that nothing is gained by challenging the other class car for the track position, why get involved? Too many folk have been watching Jimmy Spencer IMHO. It is too easy to lift just a little at the braking zone and allow the faster car thru and not upset your line or race to get into an on-track arguement about "ownership" of a piece of pavement.

[OTLimit]

I don't care for morons who put my husband's life at risk.

That said, having discussed this many times at the track, just because a car is slower doesn't mean s/he should just move over. Chris would much rather they just drive their line and be predictable. The faster car will get around, as long as their ego doesn't do anything stupid.


Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
At the ARRC I witnessed (and caught on video) a yellow ITC MG(?) that cut off a faster ITB VW heading onto the main straight.

The video from our camera of this incident looks more complicated than this statement implies. The car was a Fiat. Several ITB cars were lapping this car, and apparently thought the race could be won on a single corner. In an instance where you have 4-6 cars involved, it's not so easy to lay blame.



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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

[apr67]

Having been one of the slowest SM's at the ARRC, I had some unique moments during the race.

I had a very il handling car, it was 'scary' loose. It would try to spin in 3, 5, 6, 7, and 11. Since I was at the back of the pack, I played pretty hard (and spun more than twice) during the race. But when the field caught me for lapping, I would give them huge points by, and I went a bit slower into the turns where I had the tendancy to spin. I did not want to cause anyone who was really racing (regardless of position) to be too messed up by passing me. I also didn't want my new SM to look like all the others (many seem like they just left the demo derby!).

But I saw some bone head moves. One guy, who was as slow as me, was trying to break the draft down the straight. Sheesh.

Alan

[pgipson]

The GCRs (and common sense) place the burden for a safe pass on the passing (i.e. faster) car. That does not relieve any one of the requirement to provide racing room, which you have to do no matter what. It's not accepatble to run someone into a wall or cut someone off in a corner. You want to do that, go run the WC.

What I try to do when being passed by a fater car is drive the line and give the other car a predictable target to miss. I don't think the right way is to move off line. Most of the people in my class that are noticeably faster than me understand that the best place to pass is before or after a turn and will (unless in a battle) time their approach to come off the turn with more speed. You have to maintain momentum to pass sucessfully

[cherokee]

When I took my check ride for my pilots lic. I was told this is a lic. to learn. Coming out of my rookie year it think you never stop learning. I am about the slowest ITA car in the country but if someone is coming up behind me I do what I was told. "hold my line and when you have a chance point them by. This seems to work pretty well for me and the guys passing, some have waved as they blew by know what I am going to do. If I am racing someone then thats different, and they seem to know that. I do have a radio in my car and my wife will let me know that 1st and 2nd are comming up. If I am racing for 12th and 13th then I will back off and let the leaders by. I have yet to come off the track without a smile on my face.

[racer_tim]

James, just check what happened on the 1st lap @ the Portland Rose Cup National.

http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/2003/Portl...-Cup/index.html (http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/2003/Portland-Rose-Cup/index.html)

This driver's appeal of the DQ made it to FasTrack. I have a feeling that he "still doesn't get it"



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[RX767]

Originally posted by Lesly Albin:" I don't care for morons who put my husband's life at risk.
That said, having discussed this many times at the track, just because a car is slower doesn't mean s/he should just move over. Chris would much rather they just drive their line and be predictable. The faster car will get around, as long as their ego doesn't do anything stupid."

I think the above quote succinctly sums up part of this discussion. Although I am currently one of the slower cars, and I only have seven race weekends logged so far, I would like to add or reiterate these points.

- I have no problem pointing a faster driver by even if you are in my class driving the same make and model. If you did not see a point, assume I did not see you.

- I do check my mirrors at appropriate places on the track. I do pay attention to flags. However, there are places on the track such as "esses" or begining of a turn where my focus is also on braking, downshifting, and/or taking the appropriate line. In these cases, it is my intent to remain predictable and remain on the racing line. A faster car may have to wait to get by.

- I do not understand why some classes are grouped with obviously slower classes. My last race of the year was at Nelson Ledges. We had approximately twenty ITS and ITA cars. Also, tossed into our group were six or seven T2 and ITE cars. Although it was a novelty to have my doors blown off by Freddy Baker's T2 Porshe Boxter among other Corvettes, Mustangs and Porshes, it seems that race organizers are tempting fate. It further bothered me to walk up to the bridge and see only seven or eight GT1, T1, SPO, and AS cars taking the track. I think it would have been a better race weekend for the T2 and ITE cars to be out with this group rather then weaving through twenty ITA and ITS cars. I would also like to thank the corner worker who had the wisdom to frantically show me the blue and yellow flag before turn one on the last lap during the Saturday race. With the white flag displayed, Freddy Baker and a ITE Corvette were wheel to wheel through turn one. Things were resolved by the time they got to me, but I was looking for them and I was able to give them the racing line.

Bill Emery
Glen Region
ITA#23

[Bill Miller]

Raymond,

The only thing I can say about your attitude on this is that it's dead wrong. Read some of the other posts. Part of being a fast driver is knowing how and where to pass people. And, it's just a fact of racing, sometimes traffic plays a part in the outcome. Doesn't matter if it's an SCCA Regional or an F1 race.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[mowog]

I disagree with the current Steward's thinking regarding fault. I've been racing for over 20 years, instructing for over 15, and I STILL think it's the responsibility of the faster driver to get by safely. Having said that, the slower driver should be predictable (as Lesley, Chris, and others said). In other words, the slower driver should either drive the line (yes, this usually means going from one side of the road to the other), or clearly waive the faster driver by. At a recent Driver's School I was driving a student around the track during the lunch time drive-around session. I was attempting to pass a student driven street car coming up to a left hand turn. The student suddenly moved in front of me about 5 car lengths before the turn in point - I was on the left side of the track, the line was on the right. I had to brake REAL hard. I stayed to the left, assuming he would apex then drift right, which is the proper line. He drifted to the middle of the track, then moved left again rather suddenly. I had to go off track to avoid the impact. And this was in a street car during drive-arounds, not at speed! At least my student learned the reason we teach students to stay on the line and let the faster car get around you, so I guess as a teaching method the close call was worth while (I just hope the instructor had some proper things to say to the student in the other car!)

[This message has been edited by mowog (edited November 19, 2003).]

[mowog]

edited original post, deleted this one


[This message has been edited by mowog (edited November 19, 2003).]

[racer_tim]

Guys/Gals, when I race @ Laguna Seca with all of the wired sound windows, the small bore production folks run with all of the GT cars, AS, Super Production, GTA, and all of the Production classes. Speed differentials are EXTREMELY great. Since I drive one of the slower cars in that group, it's IMPERATIVE that I stay on line, so the faster cars can know what to expect. We have a couple of REAL fast GT1 cars, and SP cars. Lew Larimer was 2nd this year at the Run-Offs, and Bob Stefanowicz drives a VERY fast twin Turbo 911. Frank Emmett also has a very fast SP Corvette.

With that said, I do always drive with 1 eye on the mirror, and since I've been a flagger since 1978, I know who's fast and who's not. I also know most of the flaggers. Some are better than others, and some you trust and some you don't.

I make a special point of talking to the faster drivers / cars on grid, especially during practice / qualifying and tell them that I'll most likely see them coming, and expect a point by, but I WILL STAY ON LINE. This goes a long way for both the slower and faster guys to play together safely.

During races, it's not as crucial, since once you've started to get passed by the leaders, expect more folks to catch you.

Just my $0.02 worth

Up until this year, I never hit anybody, and nobody ever hit me. I lost both streaks @ the same event in Portland. Needless to say, that was a National event. Never had any problems during Regionals.




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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[volante]

I was at the start finish line when the yellow Fiat was swarmed on by the VW's going under start-finish.I have to agree with miss Albin on this subject,that Fiat sure looked like he did not make any sudden move's,blame? I am leaning towards the passing cars.I have raced both yellow Fiat's in Mid-Div for a few years now,we almost always lap them 1 or 2 times in a race(ITA CRX)I have never had a problem getting by them.They almost always point me by,even when they are in a heated battle with another ITC car,there is a time to pass and a time not to,I always wave back as I go by to say thanks for the point.Good thing he kept that car off the wall at the ARRC,because those VW's would have ruined his weekend.It's interesting-- other racers take on thing's that happen on track,--------backmarkers.

[JWiley]

First of all, I'm gratified by the responses to my initial post--I was beginning to think I was alone!

I was extremely disappointed by the Stewards' failure to take any real action in this case, and even more disturbed by their failure again in the subsequent driver's meeting to make a loud and clear
statement about driver's responsibility. I had asked that this be a priority, and all that was said was to the effect that "We never like to see contact out there"--pretty weak.

Regarding the Fiat(s), I was following the pack that tangled on the front straight, and Volante's post was right on-- the poor guy was "swarmed" by the pack of faster cars ( again with the "pass at any cost" mentality), and told me he was hit from behind. I saw his car afterwards, and the right side was badly chewed.

I'm also in firm agreement that the notion that the car making the pass has greater responsibility--there is only so much you can do if you are in front, and I have learned that driving in your mirrors in turns only leads to more trouble. If you can't count on a basic level of consideration from other drivers, the fun pretty much goes out of it.

I've instructed at SCCA drivers' schools a
few times, and realized pretty quickly that nobody really "learns to drive" a racecar at these events--the time is too short, and only experience and seat time will teach you what you really need to know. What I accordingly chose to try and hammer into my students was a sense of responsibility for their actions on the track, and an understanding of the serious consequences of thoughtless behavior. I would like to see a much greater emphasis at schools on this aspect of amateur racing, but I don't think it's likely.

James Wiley
ITC#72 / Atlanta Region

[joeg]

Jim--Not only at the schools. Remember the novice is on his log book (and probation, sort of)for a couple of regular races thereafter.

Cheers.

[RSTPerformance]

Bill and others-

I guess I am clarifying or possibly changing my opinion/expectations. I have been around for a long time in racing as a spectator (since I was born) and I have also been a driver for a few years now that has come from the back to the front and still occasionally goes to the back depending what race group I am racing with. I like a good battle between racers and I respect that battle and would not want to ruin it for them or the people watching. Because of that you can expect me to move out of the way (as best as I can) if you are lapping me or if I am lapping you. I would like it and respect it if other drivers do the same, HOWEVER:

I DO NOT EXPECT ANYONE TO MOVE OUT OF MY WAY, I ONLY EXPECT THAT YOU ARE AWARE OF YOUR SUROUNDINGS FOR BOTH OF OUR SAFETY!!!

For example that BMW that had no clue at the NARRC Runoffs was NOT aware of his surroundings, I was beside him passing on the outside going into "big bend" because for whatever reason he was driving toward the right side of the track entering the braking zone. I was making a safe clean pass to the left and he never turned and pushed me all the way to the run off area. He finally turned when he was at the outside of the track (left side). He was totally clueless and unaware that I was beside him.

In the ARRC, the Fiat was a lot slower than the approaching ITB VW's and no it was not his fault that the incident happened, he held "his line" however simply giving a car widths room on the inside of him (right side) would have avoided the whole situation and would not have slowed either driver. You can go two wide through that turn in a ITB or ITC car without slowing down, if you don't think that is true, then your car needs work or you need driving help. I did it within 5 laps of driving on the track in an ill handling car. Anyway because of the speed of that turn if the VW did not make a pass and put on the binders, then his race would have been over. He would have lost all of his momentum and the other cars would have gained several seconds on him (in my opinion).

If it were I in the fiat I would have left a little more room. If I were the VW I would not have expected him to leave more room but would have appreciated it greatly.

Raymond

PS: I don’t want anyone to think that I don’t respect their space on the track, and if anyone feels that I don’t respect their space PLEASE come talk to me at the track so we can discuss. We are all here to have fun and be safe. The last thing I want is to ruin someone else day by my actions.


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http://rstperformance.bizland.com/rstsignature.jpg
RST Performance Racing
www.rstperformance.com (http://www.rstperformance.com)
1st and 2nd 2003 ITB NARRC Championship
1st and 6th 2003 ITB NERRC Championship
3rd 2003 ITB ARRC Sprint Race
4th 2003 ITB ARRC Endoro
1st 2003 AS NERRC and NARRC Championships

[JWiley]

One of Raymond's comments goes right to the heart of the matter, in that a situation on the track might cause a driver to have to "give up his race, or position". I believe that in any situation where the choice is between making a questionable move or dropping back, there should be absolutely no hesitation to back off. I understand that split-second decisions are not always the right decision, but it seems to me that many drivers don't even possess this "judgement mechanism" to begin with; balls to the wall is the default setting.

James Wiley

[B Schley]

There is also a lot of drivers not noticing blue flags. This in turn leads to a lack of awareness of who is around. There is also a thought with the SM guys in the upper midwest that they can only take one line through a corner. They don't believe in hold your line theory, and whine about front wheel drive cars vs. rear wheel drive cars having different lines. If you can't take different lines through corners you shouldn't be on the track. This is side by side racing, if you can't do that go back to Solo.

[oanglade]

I sure had fun avoiding getting hit at the ARRC! I was driving the slowest car in ITA and I was trying my best to allow lapping traffic to pass me without affecting them much. At the same time, I think that a lot of those faster cars could have been more patient instead of going for the low percentage, last minute dive bomb pass that some of them went for. That is simply not necessary when you have a very significant and obvious horsepower advantage.

I almost got hit by lapping traffic even though I left plenty of racing room into the corner because the lapping traffic would want to claim not just the inside half of the corner that I would leave them to lap me, but all of the rest as if I wasn't there so that they wouldn't have to lose any time at all!! I'll make it easy for them, but they still need to acknowledge that I am there and that we are all sharing the track.

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Ony

[apr67]

Originally posted by B Schley:
There is also a thought with the SM guys in the upper midwest that they can only take one line through a corner.

Wow, that is idiotic.

Their may only be one fast line though a corner, but if you slow down a bit you can drive on all of the asphault and quite a bit of the grass and dirt!

Alan

[Knestis]

Does anyone besides me think that blue flags might do more harm than good? That flapping thing is just another input to processs: Wouldn't it be better if the driver of a slower car were paying attention to the entire SA (situational awareness) picture, rather than looking at the flag station?** Wouldn't it be simpler if everyone were held responsible for watching their mirrors rather than hoping that the flagger would tell them when they needed to pay attention?

K

** EDIT - clarify this to mean "counting on the flag station to wave the blue." It should be standard practice to see every flag station on every lap but this can be done with "big" vision rather than by pointing one's attention directly at the workers.

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited November 21, 2003).]

[ITSRX7]

Gonna disagree with you here Kirk. A driver should be glancing at EVERY flag station when humanly possible. These stations are how the track communicates to the drivers. You HAVE to be looking for flags.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com
http://www.flatout-motorsports.com/images/200_06_checkered.jpg

[Knestis]

I TOTALLY agree with that statement, Andy - to the point that I make it standard practice give an exagerated head nod to acknowledge ANY flag displayed to me. (I did miss a furled black once but that's a special story.) http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

That said, the flag station - in an ideal world - should be there to give the driver information that he/she isn't well equipped to get him/herself. I have difficulty believing that drivers have so little capacity for understanding when they are being caught, that they truly require a flag to tell them it's happening...

Maybe I just have (well, had anyway - we'll see if there's anything left this spring) a really acute sense of what was catching me, developed over a couple years running the slowest ****ing IT car in two regions but I don't recall EVER being surprised to find someone behind me, having been alerted to the fact by a blue flag.

Check the mirrors as you exit each corner, in the middle of longish straights, and before each braking zone and you've got most of the world covered with your mirrors and your imagination.

Know which cars are likely to be faster than you (it's typically the ones that were in front of you when the race started, duh). Do NOT try to get out of someone's way - at all - ever.

If you do want to make their life a little easier, predict where they are going to pass you and either (a) get on the gas a smidge later, or (B) brake a smidge earlier: This covers passes into or out of corners.

If you are going to get caught between turn-in and the apex, it's a race. If they haven't passed you by your turn-in point, either (a) turn in and let them follow you to the apex or (B) slow down a little extra and hang a lane wide at the apex. If you get caught on the straight ... well, just drive the heck along in a straight line. If two cars catching you are nose-to-tail, treat them as one car and do the same things.

If you are lapping someone, assume that they are going to do all of the above - but leave yourself an out if your assumption proves to be false.

K

NOTE that all "yous" are the generic "y'all" - not Andy in particular.

[racer_tim]

Kirk, just remember the blue is an "advisory only flag".

I'd rather see NO blue flags than bad blues. You shouldn't have to rely on a blue flag to know / see that you have somebody faster behind you.



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[JIgou]

Originally posted by B Schley:
There is also a thought with the SM guys in the upper midwest that they can only take one line through a corner. They don't believe in hold your line theory, and whine about front wheel drive cars vs. rear wheel drive cars having different lines. If you can't take different lines through corners you shouldn't be on the track. This is side by side racing, if you can't do that go back to Solo.

Care to specify location? Maybe modify that to "some" SM guys? I've gone side-by-side with a few folks on this board, and never bitch about it....and I don't think they have any complaints, either. (Well, Mr. Briggen might have a valid one..... http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/redface.gif)

I know you don't mean everyone. I will admit, I have heard a couple of my fellow drivers bitch along those lines, but....well, let's just say they're not at the pointy end of the field, and they need a reason for that. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

Jarrod
Iowa resident (Midwest, right?)
SM driver

[ITSRX7]

Kirk,

Couldn't agree more with your entire post. Unfortunately, not all drivers have the ability to put into practice that excellent theory.

You would be surprised to know the range of depth perception abilities there is on the track.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
http://www.flatout-motorsports.com/images/200_06_checkered.jpg

[pgipson]

With regard to the Blue Flag situation, I do a lot of on track with a local group that puts all closed wheel race cars into a single group. There it is not unusual to find my lil ole Spec RX7 on the track with old can-am cars, nascar equipment, current GT1, Grand Am, etc. I look for the ALL the help I can get in keeping track of approaching cars. I especially like waving blue flags (closing speeds in excess of 70 mph warrant such in my opinion) and indications of multiple cars. I was once passed by an old Williams F1 car that was out of the line of sight of my mirrors (too low) and seemed to be faster than the speed of sound as I only heard him when he went by. That time there were no blue flags even though we were approaching the start stand AND a corner station. I had a little heart to heart with the race director on flagger alertness after that session.

[eh_tony!!!]

Funny, all tihs talk of courtesy and knowledge of surroundings... and NOBODY has mentioned the ITB ARRC sprint start or the SM ARRC sprint start...
Ahh the smell of antifreeze and concrete ground steel in the morning.

[OTLimit]

Originally posted by eh_tony!!!:
Funny, all tihs talk of courtesy and knowledge of surroundings... and NOBODY has mentioned the ITB ARRC sprint start or the SM ARRC sprint start...
Ahh the smell of antifreeze and concrete ground steel in the morning.

Actually, we have specifically mentioned and discussed the ITB race, and Alan made a mention of the SM race, but not the START of either race. And your point? 'Cause if your comment was get people to name names, it could get nasty around here.



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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

[RSTPerformance]

If someone is being lapped on the start they really shouldn't be racing http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

At the start everyone is "Racing" and incedents are more likely to happen. If you are not "racing" and can't accept that risk, don't race, do time trials.

I think that the discussion here is primarily based on lap traffic and whos responsability it is to "give" a little. (although I do agree that is not where it started http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif )

Raymond

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http://rstperformance.bizland.com/rstsignature.jpg
RST Performance Racing
www.rstperformance.com (http://www.rstperformance.com)
1st and 2nd 2003 ITB NARRC Championship
1st and 6th 2003 ITB NERRC Championship
3rd 2003 ITB ARRC Sprint Race
4th 2003 ITB ARRC Endoro
1st 2003 AS NERRC and NARRC Championships

[The Sleeper]

When I was running GT2 all gt cars were out there at the same time, GT1 GT2 GT3 and GT4, believe me those little GT4 cars grow in front of you real quick, it is hard to judge your closing distance at those speeds but we did it. It is both parties responsibility in a passing situation, the overtaker to alter his line and to pass in a safe manner, the overtaken to MAINTAIN his line. Maintaining your line is the single most important thing you can do, if you have a skilled driver passing he will know your line and alter his to allow a safe pass. Unskilled drivers get nervious when a faster car is overtaking them and try to alter there line to allow the pass all that does is create confusion and at speed that results in bumping and hard feelings. I`m not even going into the aspect of the unskilled driver trying to pass, as far as I`m concerned an unskilled driver should not be allowed to pass anyone til they have shown proper driving skills to the stewards of the track. The number one rule is to drive your line like you are the only one on the track a faster skilled driver will pass you anywhere he wants to safely because he knows you are following your line.

[itbracer6]

Just a few thoughts here.

1st-I've been hit on the start. Simply because a faster car failed to qualify in the rain and it dried for the race. Wow what an attention getter! Things happen. Some guys are good about it and others are cement heads!

2nd- Mr Jarrod. As of this writting we are friends again. Esp. after our conversation at the ARRC. But I must admit that after the incident at Heartland I was PISSED! I filed an unofficial protest. Basically I complained to the Cheif Stew. about your driving. I wasn't angry about the exchange but mainly the fact that you shoved me off the track in the same spot on Sat. then hit me there on Sun. Things would have been better if (A) it had not happened 2 days in a row and (B) you would have come over to see me afterwords. I've been on both ends of that type of incident and a handshake goes a long way.

3rd-As for getting passed yes the flags help but don't replace mirrors! Staying on the line is the best thing to do if you don't want to get punted but also remember thatb if you don't make it to the inside apex and leave 3 feet some of us front wheelers will pass you on the inside. Usually cleanly! Don't freak out on this.

Bill Briggen
#6 ITB
Mental Case Racing

[Bill Miller]

Looks like this thread has moved to what is essentially a discussion of "red mist". I think we've probably all had it at some point in time. What we need to realize it is that some drivers get it more/less than others. What we do is a pretty intense activity, and requires almost singular focus. Being able to process all of the information and sensory input that we get (at amazing rates) takes practice.

And Raymond, I still think you're looking at this all wrong. A car being lapped doesn't have any obligation to 'give a little'. All they have an obligation to do is be aware of what's going on around them, and hold their line. I still say that the lion's share of the responsibility of making a safe pass lies w/ the overtaking driver. He/she is the one in the driver's seat (no pun intended). If the car being overtaken holds his/her line, the overtaking car gets to pick where they want to go.

If an overtaking driver moves over for you, sometimes it's ok, other times it's not. You can't read their mind, and it's kind of like when you meet someone that's walking towards you, trying to get through a door. How many times have you both moved in the direction that still puts you in front of each other?

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