PDA

View Full Version : "When I started racing, I quit driving like an idiot...



Knestis
10-10-2003, 10:37 AM
...on public roads."

This is a common response among racers and, with that in mind, I'm working on a proposal to seek grant and/or corporate sponsorship funding for an anti-agressive driving program, using my new race car as a tool to target this message to folks - most notably young people - in the Greensboro, NC area.

A recent study found GB to be the most dangerous place in NC to drive and attributes much of the problem to agressive driving, speeding, running lights, and other types of jackassery. My program - as envisioned - would be "Take driving to the next level" kind of thing, exposing people to motorsports and drawing the distinction between "racing" (that happens on a track) and "transportation" - getting from place to place on the street.

As I work on this, I'd be interested to get your reflections on the issue, this approach to addressing it, and the philosophy behind it. I might be able to use some of your quotes for example, to illustrate the "I was lost but now am found" kind of thing that many of us go through when we "take it to the track."

Thanks in advance for your thoughts...

K

MarkL
10-10-2003, 10:43 AM
"In order to finish first, you must first finish." With that in mu=ind, I think that most drivers get into a naturally defensive mode whenever they are behind a steering wheel. If they also drive the tow rig, it is even more enhanced. Also, I don't need the expense and associated annoyances of wrecking ANY of my vehicles.

MarkL
who is not an active driver any more , but who continually holds out hope for a return to the wars.

gsbaker
10-10-2003, 10:51 AM
Kirk,

Good idea. You are not alone in your thinking. This was published yesterday:

" 'Jeep crash injures 5 classmates,' the headline said. One has since died. The driver 'just turned 16'... Her drivers license was 2 days old....

And where to start? Log onto www.autocross.com (http://www.autocross.com), click on "club list," and you'll be sent to Web sites for multiple local clubs. Go watch an event. It's free.

And take a teen. The answer isn't better cars. It's better drivers."

The link is here: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/classified/...0,3508192.story (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/classified/automotive/orl-colesmith100903,0,3508192.story)

------------------
Gregg Baker
Isaac, LLC
[email protected]

oanglade
10-10-2003, 11:04 AM
I would leave the high school parking lot everyday by smoking my tires all the way up the steep hill that led to the exit.

I thought I could drive. I thought I was above average.

A lot of years later, I still felt and acted the same way. Then, I went to an autocross in my new Miata. That was a huge eye opener. All those people in sedans and econoboxes were a lot faster than I was in my little sports car! Still, I thought that it was because they had aftermarket suspension or race tires and ignored the long list of street tire and stock suspension cars that also beat me.

I signed up for a Driver's Education event at a road course. My instructor drove my car, with me in the passenger seat. This showed me, first hand, how much I had to learn and how much more my car had in it that I didn't even know how to tap. I got hooked on doing driver education events at the track and then moved into racing.

After that first event, I immediately saw that there was no point in trying to drive fast on the street. I would never be able to push the car as hard on the street as I could on the track, without taking huge risks to myself and others. So, I thought "What's the point?". I know I can take that corner down the road a lot faster, since it's just like turn 9 at TWS, but at the track there is no incoming traffic, there's plenty of runoff area if I make a mistake and there is no chance of a finding a little kid crossing the road on the other side of the turn. On the street, I can't use all the road, so I really can't go as fast as on the track. On the track I don't have to keep my eye out for the police or the concerned soccer mom to report me as a "road rager".

Racing also has taught me about risks. At the track, I have a lot of safety equipment in my car and myself that I don't have on the street. There's a whole network of trained personnel available within seconds to help in case of an emergency.

The experience of being able to drive a car as close to the limit as you can, without the concerns that you have to have on the street makes it so much better than anything you could try on the street that it simply makes it not worthy to even try on the street. At least for me.

cherokee
10-10-2003, 11:36 AM
I agree with you K. I have a FNF kid that lives by me. When he saw the car being put together he came over like bees to honey. I am trying to get him to a DE event or something...but he says the cars are boaring. No wings big tires that kind of thing...they just don't look cool. Don't let anyone fool you these kids have money and are spending it on their cars, the only difference is they are Hondas and Toyotas not Chevys and Fords...like when I was a kid.

7racing
10-10-2003, 11:38 AM
I am an instructor for an advanced driver training program. Similar to what it sounds like you are proposing. One of the comments we hear is "you are giving a novice driver the tools on how to get more performance from their car." In a sense, that is true. The attitude of the student means a lot. If they take out of it that they can do a 60mph lane change, and then show their buddies that on the highway, who is at fault for the impending accident?

We liken it to gun safety classes. They teach you how to use your gun and shoot at targets. Is that the same as shooting at someone? You are giving them the training to do it. It is all a matter of the student's attitude, and what they do with the training.

Good luck with this. I hope it works out, as it is needed.

Jeremy

whenry
10-10-2003, 04:44 PM
It is also very similar to Judo or karate classes where you are teaching someone skills that they could use to harm or maim another but you are also teaching them the culture that the skills can only be used under certain circumstances. Street driving is not fun on most occasions because you cannot drive the same as on the track and you are much more aware of the circumstances. If racing has done one thing for me, it has changed the cars that I drive on the street since there are few places that you can really use the ability of 911, Z06 or such. Yes, part of that is my $$ goes to racing instead but what fun is a car that can go 150+ if there is no place to use it.
I dont even enjoy the "Dragon" anymore because it pales compared to the Dip at RA or the Rising S's at VIR.

gsbaker
10-10-2003, 06:27 PM
This brings back a lot of memories. When I was in high school a friend and I did some truly outrageous things in automobiles. In retrospect, it's amazing we're still alive.

This culminated in my seriously-warmed-over 1957 Chevy Nomad wagon, complete with a straight front axle, tilt-up 'glass front end, and 15.50 M&H Racemasters--Cragar wheels, of course. We both moved on to road courses.

My friend now has two kids approaching driving age. He insists they will not get the keys to the family cars until they have some experience with a HPDE or autocross. He says, "I don't want their first slip to be on a public highway."

I agree with the posts here. Streets are boring.

I stopped at a light recently behind a plain-Jane sedan. One bumper sticker read, "If it's street legal, it's too slow." The other read, "SCCA Club Racing"

------------------
Gregg Baker
Isaac, LLC
[email protected]

10-10-2003, 06:37 PM
The worst part of all this is the simple fact, you can't teach common sense to someone who has none...

Some people come out of 6 years of college with all sorts of degrees and are still idiots when it comes down to the simplest things in life.

Oh, and being a truck driver with over 2 million accident free miles in the last 20 years, I can safely say that I've seen more "idiots' behind the wheel than most.

[This message has been edited by 2Many Z's (edited October 10, 2003).]

Geo
10-10-2003, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by gsbaker:
I agree with the posts here. Streets are boring.

Boring? I think the streets can be downright terrifying at times!


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Geo
10-10-2003, 09:02 PM
Kirk.....

Major kudos pal!

I have to agree with your first sentence as many others do as well. Within a couple of weeks of beginning karting my whole demeanor on the road changed. I was no longer interested in being "boy racer" on the street. I realized that not only wasn't I "boy racer" but that nobody was and those who tried to be were downright stupid.

Good luck. I wonder if some of the professional racing community (albeit NASCAR) may be able to help find some corporate sponsors?

10-11-2003, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by 7racing:
I am an instructor for an advanced driver training program. Similar to what it sounds like you are proposing. One of the comments we hear is "you are giving a novice driver the tools on how to get more performance from their car." In a sense, that is true. The attitude of the student means a lot. If they take out of it that they can do a 60mph lane change, and then show their buddies that on the highway, who is at fault for the impending accident?

We liken it to gun safety classes. They teach you how to use your gun and shoot at targets. Is that the same as shooting at someone? You are giving them the training to do it. It is all a matter of the student's attitude, and what they do with the training.

Good luck with this. I hope it works out, as it is needed.

Jeremy


COULDNT FIND AN ORIGINAL NAME?

lateapex911
10-12-2003, 12:16 PM
I wish they had a program other than the "ball rolls out between the cars, so you better be alert" typical drivers training program when I was a kid!

As a new driver, (and really, as a race driver) the biggest challenge is aligning reality and perception. The reality of how fast the car and tires can take that corner on that day, versus the perception of the same.

A new driver will have less accuracy to his or her perception, and often that perception is grossly affected by outside influences, like races on TV, movies, and a general lack of respect for the laws of physics. Add to that the affects of drugs and drinking, and the components of disaster are there.

Most disasters are caused by a combination of events. Remove just one, and disaster can be averted.

Traditional driver training drones on with numbers and safe following distances, then pounds it home with gore pictures, but it all falls on deaf ears, as numbers and pictures are so far from reality.


Driving a car in a safe environment at speed was an eye opening experience. Experiencing the car at and over the limit did much for making me a more aware street diver. I learned that the differences between road surfaces can be dramatic, and that there is a huge importance to tires, tire condition and inflation.

Once I started racing, I was a changed man. After a race, you could pour me into the passenger seat, and drive home 5 miles an hour under the speed limit, and I was fine with it! And my street driving has certainly toned down as well.

But it didn't happen all at once. As I said earlier, it takes a combination of events to cause a disaster, and changing just one can change the end result. Giving novice drivers a real concrete feel for the reality and percetion issues can be that one element. Kids will party, and they will drink and smoke, and often drive as well. But if we can help them remember that cars can't go through corners at the same speed as they see in the movies and on TV, they might have that one element that will be needed to avoid disaster.



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

bobpink
10-12-2003, 01:51 PM
I wholeheartedly agree with the "common sense" or lack thereof of some of these kids on the streets.

Just last night I was coming home from the girlfriends and had a little run-in with one of these piece of s**t kids. My Protege5 sports some big wheels and is lowered due to my interest and participation with a World Challenge Touring Car team. While I really like the look, it unfortunately draws the attention of these kids who want to play. Although I expected some of this, I didn't think it would be so bad.

Saw this kid in an old bone stock Chevy Cavalier which had a couple of his friends along pull out of parking lot and then run up on me. We got on a nearby freeway and I was able to put some distance between us due to traffic, but it wasn't long before I saw him speeding up to catch me where he latched himself onto my rear bumper - like you can barely see the headlights. I switched lanes to let him by. Nope. He switched right behind me. I eventually had to slow to 20mph to get this kid to come around me! It became obvious afterwards he was not comfortable with this. While I will admit I briefly returned the favor which got his attention, I resisted the urge to carry on a road rage game with him and let speed on his merry way.

We did pull off the same exit and I sensed he was planning on making his way to wherever, but seeing me behind him caused him to get back on the freeway. The next time one of these s**t kids plays this game the Georgia State Patrol will be hearing from me. Total nonsense.

A HPDE class may help someone like this, but I think it would have been more effective to beat him about the head with a stick.

Bob Pinkowski
Atlanta Region SCCA
2003 ARRC Committee

[This message has been edited by bobpink (edited October 12, 2003).]

Anubis
10-12-2003, 02:51 PM
Parenting would also be rather helpful.

------------------
Lance Snyder
Atlanta Region F&C

I watched the Indy 500, and I was thinking that if they left
earlier they wouldn't have to go so fast.

JDEllis
10-12-2003, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by Anubis:
Parenting would also be rather helpful.

That makes too much sense, Lance.

Would certainly make eating out much better as well, though! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

-jde




------------------
J.D. Ellis
OVR #71 ITS Olds Calais
[email protected]

MMiskoe
10-12-2003, 07:34 PM
Attitude is everything. As an instructor for HPDE club I get to see everything. The best students are those that recognize that they aren't going to be Mario Andretti, ever, but if they pay attention they'll go faster. This goes on the street too, those with a chip on their shoulder probably won't ever figure it out.

Now anothing to consider is that racers as a group are not necessarily the safest drivers. Recently saw a thing on TLC channel about causes of accidents vrs driving style. A lot of it comes down to the ability to accept risk. There is skill involved too, but those that are willing to accept risk are those most likely to get in trouble. True for most anything. So take your average racer - good skills, good coordination, good amounts of self confidence (I can do this!) and a pretty decent ability to accept risk, especially in a car. Put it together and you've got someone who is more likely to get in an accident because of the last two items.

Its kind of a double edge sword. By showing someone what the car can do, it can expand their confidence level and therefore they drive closer to the limit without bringing any more common sense to the table.

One thing you can get through someones head is distances used up in slowing down. Spend an afternoon working a really high speed turn, walk the turn, then go drive it. It is truely amazing to see how many hundred feet can get used up trying to straighten out a car at high speed. 75mph is roughly 110 feet per second.

Knestis
10-12-2003, 07:58 PM
Okay - I'm interested in the "racing drivers aren't the safest drivers" hypothesis...

In the last 10 years I've had one speeding ticket (70+ in a 55, crossing eastern Wasthington State in the middle of a sunny afternoon), and no accidents. I piss people off because I yield to pedestrians but that's a different issue...

How do your case studies stack up? Those of your fellow racers?

Diane
10-12-2003, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by MMiskoe:
Its kind of a double edge sword. By showing someone what the car can do, it can expand their confidence level and therefore they drive closer to the limit without bringing any more common sense to the table.


I believe this is 100% attitude. In the posts above (and myself included, IMO), by showing what the car can do and expanding confidence, we drive safer. I am more alert to those around me. Have you ever watched people on the road and *known* when they were going to make a lane change before they did it or put on their blinker? Try it on your commute this week and see how good you are. I find it to be a great exercise. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

However, put "how to drive fast" into the hands of someone with an attitude and chip on their shoulder, and who thinks nothing bad can ever happen to them, then you have problems.

I also think parenting helps more with eating out then driving. When you were 16, did anything your parents say matter? Except knowing you'd be dead if you put a scratch on the car - that's what kept me clean! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

IMHO,

Diane

Geo
10-12-2003, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by Diane:
I also think parenting helps more with eating out then driving. When you were 16, did anything your parents say matter? Except knowing you'd be dead if you put a scratch on the car - that's what kept me clean! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

The thing that kept me clean the most was the fact I lived for my license. I wasn't going to do anything to risk it. Walking just ain't cool. I try to reminder the younger crowd (especially those under 21) this very thing. If no other reason, don't rish having your license pulled.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Quickshoe
10-13-2003, 01:22 AM
Here's one for your side.

When I was 16, I received two speeding tickets in one day. Between the ages of 16 and 20 I went to traffic school 4 times (max. by law) and still had 3 tickets on my record. That's 7 moving violatiions in 4 years.

At 20, I started racing karts. I've been racing something for the 15 years since. I've received one ticket for speeding.

While my average speed on the streets is lower. The greatest factor in my safer driving and lack of tickets (probably speaking too soon) is the fact that I am much more aware of my surroundings and look farther ahead than almost everyone on the road.

Knestis
10-13-2003, 11:59 AM
...so you're saying that racing has made you a more informed, accomplished speeder? That's an interesting concept. I still exceed the speed limit but I do so using a more thoughtful, considered process - rather than just going like hell whenever, wherever. Hmm...

K

benracin
10-13-2003, 02:19 PM
I think having some track experience gives you a sense of where it is you get to race and where it is where you don't. I didn't get that so much with Autocross. The short races kept you pumped with no where else to go but the streets. After seeing what tires and a car can do when the conditions are right I lost interest in driving fast on the street. The street car just can't handle that well. Not the same rush I guess. Plus on the street you've got debris, pot holes, etc.

Part of the problem with this street racers is the fact that their street cars are so darn well prepared. It's like putting food in front of a dog, telling him to not eat it and walk away. If they have the tools, they'll want to use them. I had a focus that I auto crossed and because of that I knew what the car could do on the road and I might of used it a couple times. It wasn't till I bought the race car that isn't street legal that I totally lost interest in fast highway driving. I have a car that I can drive fast but not on the street and it's better than anything I've driven on the street, so no more joy in driving fast on the street. When I run across one of the street racer guys on the highway I just say to myself "bring it to the track pal and we'll just see what you've got." http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Another thing that helped me slow down of course was selling my focus and buying the truck that tows my racer. When you don't have the equipment with you all the time on the road you loose interest pretty quick as well. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Of course the occasional clover leaf gets a little truck style late braking on it every now and then.

I just kind of feel that if you teach them to drive THEIR vehical, the one they drive every day, faster, they are going to try it sometime. If you teach them to drive a prepared race car where you get that feeling you KNOW you can't recreate on the street, you may have something.

A lot of these tuner kids are just looking for a race all the time you know. It's a hard thing to get out of their heads. I love the idea though. Good luck!

Geo
10-13-2003, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by Knestis:
...so you're saying that racing has made you a more informed, accomplished speeder? That's an interesting concept. I still exceed the speed limit but I do so using a more thoughtful, considered process - rather than just going like hell whenever, wherever. Hmm...

K

Exactly Kirk.

For the most part, flowing with traffic. For the most part. Then again, I've been known to do 90 mph on the way to work in the morning. Of course, I was still being passed a lot and I was probably in the 85th percentile at this speed on this road at that time (speed has sence been lowered from 70 to 55 and raised back up to 65). Seriously.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Quickshoe
10-13-2003, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by Knestis:
...so you're saying that racing has made you a more informed, accomplished speeder? That's an interesting concept. I still exceed the speed limit but I do so using a more thoughtful, considered process - rather than just going like hell whenever, wherever. Hmm...

K

Yes sir.

I drive at or very close to the speed limit on major roads w/intersections , shopping centers and such.

I drive below the speed limit in residential areas.

I rarely drive the speed limit on the highway. Usually 10 mph or so above (at or very slightly above the flow of traffic) If I find myself having to change lanes more than once every mile or so, I'm going too fast.

And while towing to the track, I never exceed 65 mph.

Those are my rules of thumb. Certainly not following the letter of the law. Mostly, common sense and the reward/risk calcualtions that us racers tend to do from time to time.

whenry
10-14-2003, 08:38 AM
I call it "situational speeding" where the amount of speeding is relative to the situation. There will be areas where no amount of speed is acceptible and others where 20mph+ is not dangerous. This was the standard that I applied as City Court Traffic Judge and Attorney. The cops were really concerned when I got appointed because they knew that I was a fast car freak. They found real quickly that while there were some tickets that I tossed because I felt that the cop had crossed the line, most tickets were upheld if the public interest was being protected ie school zones, dangerous intersections, high traffic areas. I did not like tickets given where there was no traffic, visibility was good and there was no extreme behavior.

gsbaker
10-14-2003, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by whenry:
I call it "situational speeding" where... 20mph+ is not dangerous...I did not like tickets given where there was no traffic, visibility was good and there was no extreme behavior.

Bravo. A voice of reason.

------------------
Gregg Baker
Isaac, LLC
[email protected]

cherokee
10-14-2003, 12:05 PM
I think it depends on the police in your area...I was on the way home from working from 6am to 2am one day (I wanted to go home) and was going a little fast 67 in a 55. There was not a sole on the roads but one motorcycle cop...got a ticket and he told me that the speed did not go to 70 until I got to that overpass (about a mile away).

still paid the ticket.

Wayne
10-14-2003, 01:25 PM
My son is 13 now, and when he turns 16 he will be going to Bondurants teenage driving school. When I was at Bondurant for their racing school I had a chance to sit in on some of the teenage driving school sessions during my breaks. Very impressive stuff. Some of those kids came in their cocky as can be... been playing video games and thought their mad driving skills would impress everyone.

By the middle of day one most them were seriously humbled, after spending time with instructors in the cars, spending time in the skid cars etc. Bondurants "accident avoidance" exercises (on track) were especially impactful on these kids. It's a good thing they do this with plenty of open space as some of those kids mad driving skills were not what they thought they were.

In talking with some of the kids after this exercise they, "had no idea how quickly things can wrong" or, "had no idea how easily it was to loose complete control of car at speed". I realize that many will say I should be teaching my son this type of stuff... and of course I do try. But as any of you with teenagers know, they often will listen to other "authority figures" more then "just dad". I don't care who gets the message across to him, just that it does get across.

Wayne

jake7140
10-14-2003, 01:42 PM
Kirk,
A very valuable endeavor you are undertaking. Keep us informed on your progress so we might learn and introduce similar programs locally. Something like this is need for all young/new drivers.

Along with the typical youth feeling of invincibility, goes the lack of understanding of what happens to a car at speed, whatever that speed is. They just have no concept of 30mph vs 50 mph and how that changes what happens, or even how something as big as a car behaves. The biggest thing most have controlled is a bike!

I am currently mentoring a nearly 16 year-old boy who enjoys cars and follows all the general rules of 15 year-old boys. Telling me how this speed part and that makes the ultimate fast car, etc. He practice drives on a small track out behind his house and thinks he's good. So I took him to a local open track event, put in the car with me as I did laps (just touring <60). His comment, "no problen". Then we switched. All of a sudden he got really serious, death grip on the wheel. as he realizes it's not so easy, and the car just doesn't go places on it's own (or it's going someplace and he doesn't understand why!).

Through a lot of coaching and more switching watching and learning, he was more comfortable, but couldn't keep it close to the line. He learned a lot that day and he will hopefully be more aware of the dynamics involved in driving a car.

They know what they know from tv or video games, and it all looks so easy. Combine that with some raging hormones and maybe a few buddies, without prior knwoledge or experience spells the disaster we see on the roads today.

My kids will definitely go through HPDE-type training; not to go fast, but to learn how a car behaves, and to realize the difference that 5mph can make.

I would like to see ALL of the "parallel parking course" driver ed programs gotten rid of and some real "driver ed" required for a license. Mist kids simply do not know what they don't know. Most could learn given the opportunity to do so on other than public roads.

My mentee will be driving in a month, still talks big, but I think underneath has a new understanding. I wish there were more opportunity for HODE learning BEFORE the license gets handed out.

------------------
Steve
[email protected]
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/jake7140" TARGET=_blank>My racing page
</A><A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/elrss" TARGET=_blank>Elkhart Lake Racing_&_Sipping Society
</A>

gsbaker
10-14-2003, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by jake7140:
...I wish there were more opportunity for HPDE learning BEFORE the license gets handed out.

Jake,

I could not agree more. Skid pad (at least) should be a requisite.

------------------
Gregg Baker
Isaac, LLC
[email protected]

ITS240z18
10-14-2003, 05:33 PM
Knestis, what you're trying to do is admirable. Driving to work or the grocery store isn't supposed to be an extreme sport. A few national media outlets carried the story of Bruce Murakami, whose wife and daughter were killed by a teen who was street racing. The father came upon the scene of the accident while the vehicle was burning, with his family still inside. The father pushed to have the kid charged with vehicular homicide or manslaughter, and the authorities finally complied several years later. Then the father negotiated a plea-bargain with the kid - no jail time, drop the felony charges, but the kid had to do community service, speaking to high-schoolers WITH the guy whose family he had killed. http://www.touchedby.com/whathappened.htm

When I read, "The next time a buddy brags about racing, tell him to take it to a track, he said" I realized most folks don't know how easy it is to get onto a track.

Regarding teens and HPDEs... I "adopted" my 17-year-old niece this past summer. I wanted to send her to HPDE because teen driving programs don't teach evasive techniques or emergency response - just following distances and braking. I wanted my niece to understand that she can stay safer when using her eyes and her brains and her hands along with her feet. At 17, she's a good driver, but I could see the inexperience, too. I sent her to the HPDE, but we spent a few hours over the summer discussing why I sent her and why I would be disappointed if she used those skills on the street. Without that heavy dose of "parenting", I think the HPDE would have done more harm than good.

In my opinion, the best way to make someone a considerate, safe, defensive driver is to put them on a motorcycle, in traffic, for a while. Somehow, the risk of road rash (or worse) really brings home the dangers of driving over your head.

It's hard to change something without tackling the root cause. The biggest factor in risky behaviors is how the kid values themself and their future. The kid in that story I mentioned earlier admitted that, at the time of the accident, he didn't really care whether he lived or died. For some of these kids, admiration for their driving "skill" and daring is all the positive reinforcement they get. That's a pretty big challenge to tackle in a public service program.

I tend to thing that more good would come from bringing these kids into the SCCA volunteer ranks - watching the parade of tows after each track session, going out on the course marshall truck and stopping in a panic to pick up a piece of debris that could pop a tire (and thinking "how did they even see that?"), making a contribution (sometimes the first time they ever have), and getting both positive and negative feedback from the adults at the track. Perhaps you could give presentations to the larger groups, and invite interested kids to volunteer with the club. You'd have to start them in fire school "these are the risks, this is the safety equipment we use; as a volunteer, you'll be a pedestrian in the middle of a drag race - hope folks are watching for the yellow flags..." If they're smart, the difference between a road race and a street race will start to click.

lateapex911
10-14-2003, 07:30 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by whenry:
I call it "situational speeding" where... 20mph+ is not dangerous...I did not like tickets given where there was no traffic, visibility was good and there was no extreme behavior.


Wow....I don't always agree with everything you write, but you have my attention now! The first and only voice of reason I have ever heard behind the bench as it applies to traffic matters... (it seems that the normal judge has no interest in "justice" when it comes to traffic infractions..."justice" is usually reserved for axe murderers, and then it's not always the kind of justice we want!)

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited October 14, 2003).]

Diane
10-14-2003, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by ITS240z18:
When I read, "The next time a buddy brags about racing, tell him to take it to a track, he said" I realized most folks don't know how easy it is to get onto a track.


I agree with that BUT it's so hard to get that in their heads! I am on a few forums and one in particular really tries to frown on street racing. We don't want people posting "how to get out of a ticket", we don't want to hear about how you wasted granny at the traffic light. Once in awhile someone posts the "you guys were right, street racing is bad, one of my friends just got killed" and everyone is good for a few days.

I lost count of the number of times I have challenged them, actually I have a standing challenge for Lime Rock coming up. Guy claims to have (or will have) the fastest Escort in the state. Well, come on out to the track and show me up! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

I send them to Richard Welty's racetrack page, SCCA, here, the autox site, hell, I've even found events in their region. Wizard Racing and I have offered passes to NER events.

In the last 3 years we have gotten a handful of guys interested in autox, but it's still too low of a percentage IMO. To them, it's just too easy to cruise the streets rather than drive a couple of hours to a track event. If we can only get them bitten by the bug......

This is a *great* idea, don't get me wrong! I'm just frustrated at how lazy, for lack of a better word, some of these kids can be. We will have to go to them.

lateapex911
10-14-2003, 08:51 PM
It's interesting how we are all (kinda)referring to these "kids" ......but I wonder what we were like when we were "kids". We WERE kids, right?

Is this the same tune but to a different beat?

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

mgyip
10-15-2003, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by Diane:
This is a *great* idea, don't get me wrong! I'm just frustrated at how lazy, for lack of a better word, some of these kids can be. We will have to go to them.

It's not so much lazy as the younger generation expects the world to be handed to them on a platter (silver, of course). HPD events appeal to them but only when it doesn't cut into their partying or recovery time (read: between 2 and 6 pm on weekends). I'm not sure how to "go get them" - my rental child is 17 yrs old and enjoys autocrossing (my cars). However he also loves to sleep to the point that he doesn't want to autocross anymore b/c he has to wake up before the crack of noon. I'm not sure what will motivate these young folks to attend an HPDE other than parental or mentorial (is that a word?) encouragement.

SamITC85
10-16-2003, 10:37 AM
Guys these broad generalizatons about kids is one of teh problems. Coming from someone who works with high school kids everyday(I teach)Not all kids, actually a majority are not lazy at all, some are but so are some adults. The big issue I see with HPDE is 2 things. 1 is the location of local tracks. Their are not many road courses especially in certain areas so it makes it difficult for the kids to drive 2 sometimes 3 hours to get to a track. 2 I think money has a lot to do with it. 200 dollars is a big lump of money for them to set down for a day of on track fun. Many kids would rather spend teh 10 dollars at an import drag and spend the extra 190 on their car. This is just my opionon from someone who has been trying and tried to get these kids involved.

------------------
Sam Rolfe
TBR Motorsports
#85 ITC VW Rabbit
#85 GP Scirocco on the way
#11 GP Scirocco on the way

bobpink
10-16-2003, 10:56 AM
I was as guilty as many of the kids on the streets today as far as doing things I shouldn't have and got the tickets to remind me, but the biggest difference I am seeing is the aggressive driving habits. I never went out of my way to harass fellow motorists. It is becoming all too common among this age group, but is definitely not limited to teenage kids.

Maybe this is just a big city Atlanta thing....I don't know.

The daughter of a friend of mine is on her learners permit and I have ridden with her a couple of times. Her mother spend the $$$ to send her to a driving course at Road Atlanta and the level of confidence and awareness between before and after was noticeable.

------------------
Bob Pinkowski
Atlanta Region SCCA
OPM Autosports
ITS Honda Prelude (for sale)

[This message has been edited by bobpink (edited October 16, 2003).]

jake7140
10-16-2003, 01:33 PM
It's interesting how we are all (kinda)referring to these "kids" ......but I wonder what we were like when we were "kids". We WERE kids, right?

Yes, we were, but now we're older, hopefully wiser and need to impart our wisdowm to the nexte generation. I agree with someone who earlier poste "....and it's amazing we're still alive". Darwin at work, as long as we do our part.

As far as implementation, it need not be an open track full out thing. A lot could be learned in a good size parking lot/cone autocross area.

I still firmly believe most drivers (kids and adults) just don't understand the physics involved. It's just that older people generally apply additional experience and "common sense", where younger people act first, think later, and still live under "ignorance is bliss" because they jsut don't know what they don't know. (the first rung on somebody's learning ladder)

These are generalizations, and I agree, root cause (parenting, attitude, peer pressure, etc) plays a big role, and we can't save everyone, but you never know who you might be saving by teaching one or two.

------------------
Steve
[email protected]
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/jake7140" TARGET=_blank>My racing page
</A><A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/elrss" TARGET=_blank>Elkhart Lake Racing_&_Sipping Society
</A>

whenry
10-16-2003, 02:11 PM
One of the first things that you learn when you buy your first "fast" car is that most drivers do not understand the concept of closing speed. It is just amazing how many folk will see a gap and fill it regardless of the speed that you are approaching. Of course, since it was me driving above the speed limit, it was my job to get slowed down and miss the guy.
I think that is also why towing is so dangerous; folk dont understand the physics of stopping large tow vehicle and trailer.

mgyip
10-20-2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by whenry:
I think that is also why towing is so dangerous; folk dont understand the physics of stopping large tow vehicle and trailer.

Sure they understand the physics - you and your umpteen thousand pound rig can stop just as quickly as a Porsche GT3.

Don't even get me started on stupid people that don't understand what it's like to tow a trailer let alone how to drive around a towed vehicle.

EscortGT
10-21-2003, 10:25 AM
The comment about towing.... I was a boy racer, always diving between lanes, pulling out to close etc etc, until i learned to drive a truck and trailer. not a big rig, a silverado with a horse gooseneck trailer on the back. The extra accuracy needed taught me a whole bunch about how to drive.. im still no expert, but the first step to learning is knowing you have to learn.

Jc