nhis enduro longer is better

[dickita15]

the Aug 27 nhis enduro will be 4 hours instead of 3 as in the past.

Dick Patullo
patullo at verizon dot net

[Andy Bettencourt]

Awesome!

Great job as always NER CB. Tell me it's on Sunday and the beer is on me!

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM 1.6
Spec Miata 1.8
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[7racing]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
Awesome!

Great job as always NER CB. Tell me it's on Sunday and the beer is on me!

AB



OK, it's on Sunday! You can send the beer directly to me.

(of course, I have no idea if it is on Sunday or not, just wanted the free beer from AB)

[MMiskoe]

Any chance the "mandatories" will be eliminated or at least shortened?

[dickita15]

no it is on saturday andy. we are working on a plan that lets regional drivers run the practice on sat morning and still get a refund if the car breaks in the enduro.

The sups are not written yet but I belive we will still have a minimum time if you are refueling though we have no minimum number of stops. actually I am coming under some pressure to find a way to reduce fuel spillage.
dick patullo

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...I am coming under some pressure to find a way to reduce fuel spillage.</font>

Dick, it seems the only reasonable way to do this is to specify a minimum amount of time per stop. You can't specify equipment (such as safety dry breaks) so tempering the adrenaline via a minimum stopping time seems a reasonable alternative. Even the slowest of street pumps can fill a tank in 3 minutes or so... GA

[lateapex911]

I think that a minimun time for a fuel stop will encourage those drivers who do not have an enduro crew to enter the event.

I know that part of enduros is the team aspect, but I think thats better emphasized for longer events such as the 6, 12 and 24 hour events.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[MMiskoe]

A stop & go penalty is a great motivator to not spill fuel, I can attest personally.

What about having a time limit only on the time that the fuel filler is open - Once the door opens, nothing can happen on the car, for 1 minute. Most dumps can easily get done in that time w/ planning. Driver out of the car during the stop.

Jake, you're not wrong, but a 4 hour race can't be done alone. Having long mandatory pit stops cuts away at an advantage created by a well executed stop & also provides more potential overheating problems for motor & brakes. The margins in some races like this show that pit stops can make the difference in top finish places.

When a regional enduro spills more fuel than the roundy-round guys I think there will be a legitimate gripe.

Dick I would be more than willing to help w/ ideas off line for this.

Matt
[email protected]

[DaveITB1]

Dick,

Thanks for the update on the enduro. That is great news. Longer is better......

I will also offer my help with ideas, etc for this event (if it is needed/wanted). The more help we can get from all the members, the better (and more fun) it will be.

Happy New Year!

Dave A.
[email protected]

[dickita15]

Writing supps and getting everyone to agree and understand their meaning has been a greater challenge than one would expect. There are a lot of people who need to be on the same page, drivers, crew, chief steward, pit steward and pit workers including the grid and tech people who become pit workers to help with this event.
Minimum pit stop times do hurt the best teams but this event is in my mind for most an intro to endurance racing and we cannot expect everyone to be trained and practiced in this type of racing. Given that I am amazed at teams who have never practiced fueling against a watch.

The two tasks that we do not want rushed are the refueling and the driver change. Sloppy fueling and belt problems are risky. Our current philosophy is that there is no minimum number of stops. And stop that involves refueling must be 3 min. minimum with the clock starting when you open the fuel system. No one may be under the car during fueling but you can do driver changes or anything else during the fueling. I know that last year this is not how it was enforced but that go back to communicating the rules to the officials. I will fix that. If we require the driver out of the car during the refueling then the belting part of the stop gets rushed.

The fuel spillage thing seems to be mostly from those that use funnels. The car becomes full and there you are with 2 quarts of gas in the funnel. There has been talk of a penalty if the spot on the ground is larger than say 12”. Can you see pit worker with cardboard circles.

By the way my long-term goal is to make this event a 6 hour and to get our muffled date back at Lime Rock for an enduro there as well.
Dick Patullo
NER Asst Road Race Chairman
[email protected]

[Scott Koschwitz]

Great news about the 4-hour enduro at NHIS. I have been looking for another race date this season. I will seriously consider this one.

Dick, also good news about the possibility of running an enduro at Lime Rock again. I flagged what I think was the last SCCA enduro at Lime Rock (2001?). I was at station 2 for the first-lap, first-corner melee in a three-hour race -- what a shame. Since I've moved to the driver ranks, I've been disappointed that we haven't run any more enduros at Lime Rock.

[This message has been edited by Scott Koschwitz (edited January 12, 2005).]

[Matt Rowe]

Originally posted by dickita15:
Minimum pit stop times do hurt the best teams but this event is in my mind for most an intro to endurance racing and we cannot expect everyone to be trained and practiced in this type of racing. Given that I am amazed at teams who have never practiced fueling against a watch.



I think you hit one of the key problems here. At the enduros I've praticipated in there are two types of fuel spill, the one where an experienced team has a problem, and the one where it is an inexperienced team. How you mandate that teams practice is beyond me. The problem I've seen with a minimum time in multi stop races is even among the experienced teams, a car with lesser fuel mileage gets hit with a bigger penalty. By changing from 3 to 4 hours you may have some teams stopping twice while others only stop once. If you make a fuel stop a minimum of 3 minutes that is hard to make up on the track. Yes, that's part of choosing which car you run and how you tune it. But people generally aren't happy about what is seen as an artificial delay.


Originally posted by dickita15:
The fuel spillage thing seems to be mostly from those that use funnels. The car becomes full and there you are with 2 quarts of gas in the funnel. There has been talk of a penalty if the spot on the ground is larger than say 12”. Can you see pit worker with cardboard circles.



If most fuel spillage is a result of using a funnel how does a minimum time reduce that? Without knowing how much gas is needed to fill the tank who knows when to stop pouring? That also applies to the guys with dump cans, they just spill less if their reaction time is good.

Requiring a catch pan with oil dry under the car during refueling goes a long way towards minimizing fuel on the ground. Also the 12" rule has some issues with enforcement on rainy days and shared pit spaces. Just something to think about.

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~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[JohnRW]

Originally posted by dickita15:
Writing supps and getting everyone to agree and understand their meaning has been a greater challenge than one would expect.

Amen, brother.


Originally posted by Scott Koschwitz:
I was at station 2 for the first-lap, first-corner melee in a three-hour race -- what a shame.



You should have seen the view from inside the dust cloud. Yikes. Proved once again that drivers are generally dumber than a bag of hammers. "To finish first, you must first finish".

Fueling and enduros - there is probably no way to eliminate all fuel spills. Many classes can't run dry breaks, even if they wanted to (SS, SM, SRF, etc.). You just have to figure out how to mitigate what drools onto the ground. Catch pans, 'spill pillows' (i.e. Saf-T-Clean 'Pig Mat'), etc. can all be a big improvement.

NASCAR-style dump cans without dry breaks are almost as messy as jugs and funnels.
Most recent SCCA enduros have specifically banned overhead fuel rigs. It may have been that Supps writers feared all that gas above their heads, or that it was a significant disadvantage to teams that couldn't afford one. One thing overhead rigs do is minimize fuel spills, even without dry breaks. Using them with a standard 'trip' style pump nozzle, or even just a 'deadman' valve on the end of the hose, helps keeps gas contained.

[Matt Rowe]

Originally posted by JohnRW:
NASCAR-style dump cans without dry breaks are almost as messy as jugs and funnels.
Most recent SCCA enduros have specifically banned overhead fuel rigs. It may have been that Supps writers feared all that gas above their heads, or that it was a significant disadvantage to teams that couldn't afford one. One thing overhead rigs do is minimize fuel spills, even without dry breaks. Using them with a standard 'trip' style pump nozzle, or even just a 'deadman' valve on the end of the hose, helps keeps gas contained.



Agreed, about the dump cans and funnels. Dry breaks are really what you need, but as you pointed out not every class can use them. The 12 at Summit this year is allowing overhead fuel rigs. In the past I had been told they were outlawed due to costs to the competitor. I'm guessing that they see the safety aspect outweighs the cost. For a team just starting out it seems like a lot of money but if they are allowed but not mandatory the better prepared teams can be safer.

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~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[This message has been edited by Matt Rowe (edited January 12, 2005).]

[16v]

excellent. Another hour to take pics

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Doug :)
NER.org (http://ner.org)
the16v.com (http://the16v.com)
briansgarage.com (http://www.briansgarage.com)

[Blix]

4 hours...does this mean that I have to have a co-driver?

E

[dickita15]

Originally posted by Blix:
4 hours...does this mean that I have to have a co-driver?

I do not anticipate that the rules will require one, but if it is as hot as last year...
dick

[Blix]

Dick, that is great news...those of us who are fitness nuts, and anal about our cars (my mom says I don't like to share) love to run this by ourselves...I do however think I'm going to invest in a cool suit.

E

[ner88]

Dick,
In the past years there was never enough practice time for a team with 2 or 3 drivers. Any chance of 2 practice sessions?
Jerry

[This message has been edited by ner88 (edited January 26, 2005).]

[dickita15]

Originally posted by ner88:
Dick,
In the past years there was never enough practice time for a team with 2 or 3 drivers. Any chance of 2 practice sessions?
Jerry


golly you are getting 4 hours, you need practice? http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

actually we are looking at a way to have the sessions between qualifying and the race as test sessions for either regional or enduro entries so it may work out.
dick

[ner88]

Thanks Dick,
Can you explain the reason for having the enduro on Saturday and not on Sunday???

[dickita15]

one reason is that more enduro drivers tow from a greater distance than do nerrc drivers. but there is also a feeling that it is easier on the worker core. it is hard to hold workers till the end on sunday.