Car Classification Question

[TurboCGT]

I have an Audi Coupe that I have swapped a turb motor into from another audi. I had initially only planned on running the car in Autox events and mabye track days.. but after watching club racing a couple times I would really like to give it a try, but a second car (second play car) is not an option for me and it would be kinda painful to sell this car with all the time and money I have into it. I was curious what class I would end up running in. I have been told by some ITE is where I could run... and that is a "catch all for dot tires", is this true? Thanks for the help.

[dickita15]

you are right the engine swap as well as the turbo put this car outside the normal IT classes, IT cars are actually quite restricted in modifications. But do not get discouraged, if the car is that far along do some auto cross and some track days and see if this is for you. come to the track start volunteering to work races or crew and find out more about the racing scene. you can use this car to get involved even to go to drivers school and run some races if you want and as you get more involved you may or may not modify you plan.
by the way where are located. mybe we can hook you up with somebody close.
dick patullo

[TurboCGT]

Yeah.... I have autoxed the car quite a bit and driven at both NHIS and Tremblant. Was really curious if anyone on here knew how ITE works in the NE (I believe its a regional class). I have been to a couple races with the blethens and would definatly like to get involved. Trying to decide if I should just bite the bullit and try to sell my car to get something better suited to a variety of things (club racing, track days, and autox), or take the dive and make my audi safe for the track. Thanks for the help.

[dickita15]

ok the actual ITE rules are on the Narrc web site which is hosted by NNJR
start and ner.org road racing page. link to narrc rules page from there.
basicly darn near anything is legal if it meets the IT safety rules. you would run with big bore though.
I guess the question on using your existing car is how much would you need to get it legal and what would you do if you changed cars. if the car is not already caged i would change cars. If it is a matter of a kill switch and a fuel port why not stay where you are.
if you were starting from scratch for IT would do an Audi or could you do it cheaper with a VW or Honda.
I don't know Audis but is the car an appropriate chassis with the right suspension and brakes but you would have to sell the cool motor. if that was the case you could run it in ITE now knowing if you really like it you could just change the motor to move to a real IT class.
you have met the Blethens and they know Audis. ther is also the McNarys that run two cars.
dick

[TurboCGT]

car is not caged.... thats kinda what is killing me.... 2000 for a cage and seats to make my car legal for a class where it won't be competitive... or 3000 for a built up car. If i knew i could sell my car it would be an easy decision. Thanks for the info.

[RSTPerformance]

Jarod-

We can chat on e-mail if you want but I am posting here cause I think others have the same questions/thoughts as you.

We can get the car caged just like our coupes for under $1,000 (Awsome safe, cage. I thought that I had sent you Chris Howards phone #. Did he change his price? or did you get local prices up in Maine?). We can also find you a racing seat for under $200. (thats now $1,000 further investment Vs the $2,000 you said in your post).

If I were you and you wanted to do this with the turbo (which is the feeling I have got from you) I would. Cage the car and build it as if it were an IT car, however keep the Turbo in it. Get your licence havefun and run in ITE for a few events next year (yeah you will get blown away, but you will still get to run on the track with "more friendly" drivers (unless Paul Newman is on track... watch out!!!). Another words you would be less likely to have an incedent damaging the car (your car is showroom nice isn't it?). Then if you want to have the intence wheel to wheel competition part added switch out the motor and go into IT. The cost for a IT motor in that car is about $300 - $500 after rebuild. You can easily get that for the turbo motor you take out. If you decide that you don't want the intence wheel to wheel competition part and you just like lapping the track with lots of HP nd speed then you can keep progressing with the turbo setup in ITE.

Maybe next year after you get your licence we will hook up on a test day and put you in one of our cars for a session!!!

Raymond
RST Performance Racing

PS: The other option you have is taking a shell that we are going to send to the scrapyard in about 5 days unless you want it.

[RSTPerformance]

Jarod-

I have a little different angle to give you...... If you run in ITE you will probably not learn how to "race" and you will have a much tougher time learning how to drive fast and on line. If you build or purchase an inexpensive IT car then your learning curve is going to increase much quicker. I am only saying this because from experience when you first start racing you can benifit a ton form other drivers around you. In ITE you are going to be watching your mirrors, and moving out of the way a lot. I know you have like 179HP at the wheels (Saw a post on Audiworld.com) but you are going to have cars that have upwards to 500HP. From a learning standpoint look at where you want to be 5 years from now and if this is just a fix for speed you will certainly go faster in your coupe Turbo but if you want to race against others wheel to wheel you may want to take another venture. Like Raymond said we have a shell we are going to get rid of within 5 days but it needs to go... our insurance company says so, long story http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/frown.gif

Stephen

PS Dick is the godfather of racing. Any advise he gives you take it. Even if it sounds crazy he knows best. I will introduce you to him next year http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

[TurboCGT]

listed my car up for sale.... ill have to see if i get any interest... that may be the deciding factor. Thanks for all the help.

Jared

[924Guy]

Sorry to have come on this thread so late, because there is another option! Your car would be eligible (with the requisite safety equipment, of course) to run GTS Challenge. With 180hp at the wheels, you could run in GTS3 at a weight between 2610 and 3148lbs, which I'm guessing is most reasonable for you as a streetable car, per the current (2004) rules (without getting into how the ratios and rules may be tweaked for next year).

http://www.gtschallenge.com

We should perhaps email back and forth for more detail, but basically the GTS Challenge classes are run what you brung, German touring cars (from ITB equiv through GT1 and faster), classed only on a basis of hp at the wheels and weight with driver, as raced. Everything else is open, engine swaps are most certainly allowed (as are AWD, turbos, and blowers).

Of course, that assumes that racing this car makes the most sense. All of the usual (previously stated) points regarding buying used racecars, starting in slower cars/classes, etc., are very valid points. Just want to make sure you're aware of all the options.

Email me if you wish to discuss further; my email's in my profile.

EDIT: for some reason, my email won't display. So, it's vaughan (at) vaughanscott (dot) com (don't forget all the "a"s)

------------------
Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITA/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com (http://www.vaughanscott.com)

[This message has been edited by 924Guy (edited October 26, 2004).]

[TurboCGT]

doesn't seem to be the best option due to the tracks where the events are held. I am in maine.... so would perfer to race in NE. But thanks for bringing that up. If it was local it looks like it would be a great option. Again... thanks everyone for the information.

[gran racing]

Have you done any HPDEs? It doesn't sound like it. If not, do several of these events. Keep in mind many HPDEs (have to plug Ian's SCDA here) give you tons of track time! Normally four 25 minute sessions with an instructor for about $225. If you have not done this, as Dick said this should be the first step. By doing these events, you will learn the proper line. And having an instructor ride along with you is always great.

Obviously most of us who post here are a bit biased, but I prefer IT over most other club level classes. Having 18 ITB or 25 ITA cars show up at a typical lime rock park event is awesome. Race a class where there are plenty of other cars in that class. Otherwise you may get bored.

In addition to having a custom cage made, there are several companies who make cages already built such as autopower. (That's the name, right?) For 1,000 do the one Ray said.

Before you sell the car, determine what you want to do. (eBay is a great place to sell a car like yours.)

------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[TurboCGT]

yeah, I have done 2 track day/ driving schools. one this past weekend at NHIS and one about a month back at tremblant. I feel I have the basics down and would like to get more seat time in some different events next season. I think an ITB or C car would be a good place to start. Been looking around the net at VWs, Audis, and old bmws (my dad has 3 parts cars).

[gran racing]

Go with an ITB car then. Take a look at the typical participation numbers. That may influence your decision.

I still say keep going with HPDEs. I did many of them before making the transition to SCCA racing. Even then, it was a bit shocking to see just how fast people drive in SCCA. Seat time is sooo key!

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[ed325its]

What might you consider in older BMW cars? I raced an ITB 318i for several years and it was a top 3 car, usually behind Eric and Scott in the Volvo's. I think the 318i can still be competitive although I don't know what the downclassed ITA cars will mean to the results. Feel free to drop me a line if I can help or answer questions. I'm also in Maine.

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Ed Tisdale
#22 ITS '95 325is
Racing BMW's since 1984

[BB Racer]

I've got another idea. I would (strongly) recommend you consider renting a car for a true race weekend before making any decisions now. Maybe even a couple of different rentals for a couple of different classes for the first year.

There's a few reasons this would be my recommendation. 1) you get an easy entry into the sport to focus on the fun parts, i.e. driving. 2) you will find out about the people and groups you are driving in/with, and know if it's a good fit (attitudes wise, financially, etc.) 3) you will learn enough from a single reasonable rental to be way ahead of the game in doing your own program. Things like how to organize yourself, what you should prioritize, prep ideas, driving tips etc.

On the surface rentals can sound expensive but i know of a few (www.flatout-racing.com, shameless plug for friends) who are probably cheaper than doing your own thing, and if you have friends (like the Blethens) maybe you can rent their car for the school for a fair amount.

Just my .02

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[gran racing]

Renting not expensive? Ummm...I can't agree with you there. And the potential cost is what would always scare me. What if you total the car or even just damage it? I'd rather drive a POS with stock pretty much everything and not worry about that.

With the Accord moving to ITB. Run that bone stock with all of the safety equipment. I'd bet a good driver could put up some decent results. And a person could find one of these for less then $1,000 (stock).

------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[RSTPerformance]

Jarod sent me an e-mail and as you can tell he is an "Audi" person sorta like we "Blethens" are. The good thing though about Jarod is I don't think he is stuck on the idea of racing an Audi and he is open to other makes (unlike us http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif )

Anyway in my e-mail back to him I put together the actual cost to build an Audi ITB car, from a beginer to a front runner. Feel free to bash this, rip it apart, eat it, then spit out some sort of informational constructive critisism for him and others to read.

Jarod-

The positives to the 84 and below are:

The brakes are smaller, but that doesn't matter the car stops just as well IMO.

4X100 bolt pattern (cheaper and easier to find wheels as that is VW and Ford Focus and many others spec).

Big bumpers http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif that are cheaper (no covers to pay for)

The headlights are cheaper if you have any accidents/bumps.

Total weight with driver for SCCA ITB is 2490 Vs 2540 (50 lbs less).

So with that I think it is a better car. We choose that style not because we had to but because we thought it was a better car for the class.

As far as cost...

With a free shell that has not got a good transmission or engine: (this was one of his possabilities)

Engine: $100-$200 (Chris at www.force5auto.com (http://www.force5auto.com) should be able to get you one)

Transmission: $100-$200 (Chris at www.force5auto.com (http://www.force5auto.com) should be able to get you one)

Suspension: you said you already have that.

Roll Cage: $800.00-$1,000 (suggest Chris Howard)

Roll bar padding: $20-$40

Seat: $100-$300 (http://www.discoveryparts.com/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=seats_kirkey)

5 Point Racing Belts: $100-$200 (http://www.discoveryparts.com/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=harness_gforce)

Window Net: $15-$50 (http://www.discoveryparts.com/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=restraints)

Fire Bottle: $9.99 at Home Depot or Wal-Mart (got one the other day)

Battery Cut-Off switch: $45-$50 (you will need the alternator cut off)

Total Cost: $1,290-$2050. Realistically though, I would count on about $1,500 (low end used parts (that’s where we started, but without suspension that you already have) to $3,000 (high end, but more dependable new replacement parts) after finding little things like axles, alternators, battery, etc.)

To make a more competitive/front running car this is all that I think you might also want to get (a list to start with).

Other things to do/get:


Steering wheel with smaller diameter: $50-$300 (Grant-Momo)

Wink Mirror $15 (that way you can see me coming up to lap you http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif )

K&N air filter: $35 (http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/performance/index.php?brand=k-and-n&brand_part=air_filter&brand_make=au&brand_model=coupe&brand_year=1984)

Real Racing Brake pads: Porterfield makes them, but that company sucks IMO (bad results from inconsistent pad wear). Carbotech makes them for us, and we have nothing but great things to say about that company. A set made for you will cost about $145 shipped (as compared to $175 from Porterfield) and they last 3-4 times longer (half the season at least).

Brake Biase and lines (added since e-mail) $200-$300

Aftermarked direct/manual (non electronic)Guages: $200-$400 for Water temp oil presure and RPM W/ shift light. (thats all that is hooked up in our cars)

To do a basic IT motor (rebuild, which will do you plenty, that’s all we do) it will cost $400-$700 depending if you do just the head or the whole motor. This should include everything including gaskets, oil, antifreeze, machine work, etc.; if you do all the work with exception to the machining stuff.

Quaife: $1150 (from us)

Possible upgrades to suspension... $-$$$$ different spring rates and what not, not sure what you have, our racing suspension costs about $1,500 (springs, coil over package, adjustable shortened Koni shocks, adjustable shortened Koni struts, and housings; almoast all made at home).


Total for the others… $4,300 or so.

But don’t forget about this part:

Do you have driver suite, helmet, gloves, nomex, socks, and leather shoes ($30 Adidas soccer shoes are cheap and good enough, that is what I have and they have lasted 6 years).


So for a compairison our cars probably safely could be rebuilt for $6,500-$7,500 to the same condition that they are now, with a free donor car (which is not hard to find). A couple big things to remember:

This does not include labor.

There are no guarantee on anything in racing (parts or satisfaction). We have had 1 car that has been blistering fast and very reliable. We have also had 1 car that has had so many issues that if it was our only car we would have given up a long time ago.

We have an excellent knowledgable crew that helps at the track and at home, I am not sure we could do what we do alone.

We do not have fuel cells or fire systems which I think is a $1,000-$1,500 investment worth while.

I hope this helps and puts things in a realistic perspective. I certainly think you should go for it, I hope that this posts shows that you realistically you can get out on the track relatively inexpensive, and you can move to the top realistically within a couple years investing in one piece at a time. I also know that Audi’s are not the cheapest or most popular/developed race car so I would think that a VW would be a lot cheaper (for example a Quaife is only $800.00 for the VW vs $1,150 for an Audi coupe). But we would certainly like to see you in an Audi http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif


I think we spent about 1,500-2,000 our first year to get on the track including safety equipment (hand me down suites). We just searched around took our time and asked for a lot of help.

I am going to put this on the improved touring website so others can bash it. This is what we have done but hey, for your benifit the bashing will get you some other points of view.

*The WebPages I listed is only for proof of prices and a starting place. Search around for the best deals and/or products. I in no way suggest you should go with those companies or products (although we do have a few of those products in our cars). If you are brand specific about something and that will make you more comfortable then get that. For example, I find my OMP suite very comfortable, which is important to me, thus I spent the $$$ on it. We can get you some deals on some stuff, let me know what you are trying to get and I will do the best I can (after the ARRC is over).

Raymond
RST Performance Racing
www.rstperformance.com (http://www.rstperformance.com)


Crud I forgot Camber plates in the original post... Those are a must for these cars. you need 3-5.5 degrees of camber depending on the track. $250

camber/caster would be better at about $500

[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited October 28, 2004).]

[gran racing]

Oooops! I forgot I'm runing with ITS next year. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/eek.gif What I meant to say is that if you rent go with Flat Out's car otherwise build an accord.

In all seriousness, if someone wants to see what they can do in a well prepared car renting can make sense. You just need to be aware of the risks.

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[ulfelder]

Thanks, Dave, I owe you a bump-draft down the NHIS front straight next year! ; )

We're grateful as hell for the plugs, but must correct the URL: www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com).

/Steve U
05 ITS
Flatout Motorsports

[BB Racer]

Steve, wow, sorry about the brain fade on the URL.

I think the Blethens forgot a couple of things. Do you have a truck and a trailer (and a budget for towing gas and tolls and wear and tear on the tow vehicle and trailer)? What about racing wheels and tires (big cost that gets used up)? Rain tires? You pretty much have to replace all the brake components (pads, rotors, calipers, master cylinder) on a free chasis for a safe racecar, you will end up spending at least 1 k in things you cannot predict including; complete tune up, new high quality fluids, misc. shipping, fuel test port, and a crazy amount of other items that break or need replacing.

So again i say that if you truly keep track of what it costs to race you will be within a 100 or 200 a weekend to rent a fully prepped car, with no hassles, reliablity (important for newbies, especially schools), and like i said if you're new you'll learn enough to make it even more valuable. As far as liablity goes i think most of the people are pretty reasonable, but it is a reasonable concern.

Truthfully i'd rather run three races in a very competitive car without me having to worry about towing, working on the car, etc. than 4 or 5 in a barely put together, uncompetitive, unproven car. I think this is especially true of a newbie.

Again, just my .02

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[RSTPerformance]

Ah I new I forgot somethings...

Tow rig $$$$$ I had and still have the use of my fathers and some of my friends, you live in Maine so maybe you have some friends willing to help out? I have to put in a thank you here to my friend Tim Dugan who lends me his truck every year to tow the race car... he even lets me take the truck to Pocono, and no he doesn't go.

Trailer: You can ushually pick up a used trailer for about $1,000 +/- depending how nice you want it. The major maintenance involved in that is rewiring the lights every time you use it, and fixing wheelbearings if you hit the curbs in the toll both.

Racing wheels: He said he had wheels and tires, but Wheels are certainly NOT a needed item, only benifit I think is looks and possible offsets. (maybe a pound or two in weight, but not enough to make it a needed item). We do have wheels, they were the lightest non-racing wheels (off the shelf aftermarket wheels) and they cost about $50.00 a wheel brand new.

Racing Tires: YES absolutely needed to go fast. I would consider tires as a per event cost along with Gas, towing expenses and entry fees. Sorta in a different catagory or line item in the racing budget. I guess brakes could be added to that catagory for some, but brakes on our cars last almoast as long as a fresh engine.

Also an FYI on the fuel test port... The Audi has a factory test port, no modifications required, just have an extra injector line to screw in http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

As far as repairs and oils and all that I included a buffer in my analysis for that stuff and as well as the possible radiator, motor mounts, brakes, cv shafts, hoses etc. obviosly if you get a bare minimum shell with A LOT of problems then it will cost you more. But if you get a running car that is street legal you should not have many problems going over the budget I listed.

Raymond "keep the missing stuff coming" Blethen

PS: I am not arguing the thought of renting a car, I am trying to have just another post telling people what it costs to go racing. Since Jarod is into Audi's (and since he is a very potential new IT racer in the Northeast) I thought our cars made a good example for him to see what real costs are.

[gran racing]

A lot of this depends on what one defines as "needs" to go out racing.

Stock rims will work. Use Toyos for tires. Or as I did, buy some preowned tires for the first few races / schools. I used $25 / tire BFG SRF tires. Calipers, master cylinder, ect.? Not on my car (1987). But then again it is a Honda. You don't need to do anything to the motor. Although if Ray can hook you up with what he does, then by all means go for it esp. at that price!

Many cars / SUVs out there can tow 3,000 lbs. I bought a tow dolly due to the vehicle I was originally using. They weigh 500 lbs or less, can be bought for $500 or less used.

I also went out and got some product sponsors who would not help me if I were renting. Getting sponsorship is tough but it can be done. I'll leave that discussion alone.

People judge things by what they see in SCCA. For us in the N.E., take a look at some of the other local clubs. Not every one has (or needs to have) big rigs, fancy trailers, fully preped cars, ect.

The focus for new people should be just to get out on the track. Isn't it a common saying that it is better to be out on the track with a slow car many times a year then in a fast car a few times a year?

Oh well. Guess we just have different perspectives.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[BB Racer]

I agree with what you are all saying, i just thought i'd put in my perspective. We have all approached racing in different ways, and to suit our different tastes and needs. I guess the best option depends entirely on who the person is. I did want to make sure that different options were discussed, and treated as completely as possible. Hope this is helping the original poster http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif.

[p99ro]

Oh My God.
These are the things I don`t think about. Just like the goverment. How much it cost`s. If I did I probaly would not do it.
Even with everything it add`s up. I would like to get the rush jumping out of planes but I`m scared of hight`s.???????????
So I`m stuck with car`s.
Hey turbo guy. It`s a lot of money so go slow to start get just what you need. And when steven says look in your mirrior`s he ain`t kiddin. But In ITE that`s all you`ll be doing.
Good luck and maybe we`ll see you at the NHIS school.
Scott ITA NER CRXsi 09

P.S. I would not want to be Ray and Dan when they get back from Canada.

[TurboCGT]

Figured I would update. Was unable to sell my turbo car and can't bear to tear it down yet, so i think I may try to run in ITE next year. Thanks again for all the help guys. Dealing with installing a LSD and cage this month. Hope to see some of you guys this spring.

Jared

[RSTPerformance]

Jarod-

Looking forward to seeing the car on the track!!!


Raymond