NER Club Racing Meeting minutes

[16v]

are now online. There are a couple of interesting things to read


www.ner.org/RR/ (http://www.ner.org/RR/)

------------------
Doug http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif
NER.org (http://ner.org)
the16v.com (http://the16v.com)
briansgarage.com (http://www.briansgarage.com)

[This message has been edited by 16v (edited November 06, 2004).]

[Greg Amy]

I had a big "WTF??!??!" reaction on the LRP Paving Fund mention. Is that an optional fee? Amazing.

[Marianne]

Well apparently the new track manager made a mistake when he said there was "no pave the track fund". It indeed exists but there is no current date pannned for teh repaving.

[dyoungre]

For those of us 'not in the know', can you expand on this? How long has there been a paving fund, what total amount has the region put into the fund, etc? What can we do about it?

Relatively new to the region (2003) and learning about the issues. Thanks!

------------------
Dave Youngren
NER ITA RX7 #61

[bg43wex]

Dave, to answer your questions.

This version of the paving fund has been in place at least the last seven years the fee amount was $750.00 per day of rental or $1500.00 per weekend, to our knowledge ALL clubs who rent the track are surcharged this amount. the amount they have collected from New England region is probably around $10,000.00

There is nothing we can do about this, if we want to play in their sand box.

I just feel bad for all those people who on the Pro weekends pay $10.00 for an "I helped pave the park" bumper sticker..
this seems shaady to me.

brian m

[RKramden]

Originally posted by bg43wex:
This version of the paving fund has been in place at least the last seven years the fee amount was $750.00 per day of rental or $1500.00 per weekend, to our knowledge ALL clubs who rent the track are surcharged this amount.

And, non-clubs, like SCDA who run a drivers school (HPDE) also pay into the fund. I'll bet my paycheck that the only operation that isn't paying into the fund is Skip Barber Racing School (surprise, surprise, surprise...Where's Gomer when you need him...) who seem to be at the track about 100 days a year.

I wonder if Mr. Potter will confirm that Skip School is or is not paying like everyone else?

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I wonder if Mr. Potter will confirm that Skip School is or is not paying like everyone else?</font>

Irrelevant. What *is* relevant - and I ain't no lawyer - is that if "we" have been paying into a 'paving fund' under contractual agreement/requirement (along with a whole host of spectators) then this is beginning to smell like misappropriation of funds (a la, "fraud".)

Again, I'm a mechanical and computer network engineer, and they're a private organization, but as a customer I'm not pleased with what I'm reading/hearing...

[dickita15]

ok new information. the new track manager now has said there is a paving fund and that he was not aware when he made that statement that an escrow fund existed. I am also told that the exsistance of said fund does not mean that paving will be anytime soon but when it does occur the escrow funds will be applied to the cost of paving. The story of our relationship with lime rock is still evolving. I am hopefull that things will be worked out but I must say it is frustrating to try to cultivate a working relationship of trust and understanding and then to have that upset by personel changes.
dick patullo

[Greg Amy]

So noted. Thanks, Dick. - GA

[RKramden]

Originally posted by 16v:
are now online. There are a couple of interesting things to read
www.ner.org/RR/ (http://www.ner.org/RR/)


Can we get these in some form other than PDF, like a simple web page? It's six screens long, and it would all fit in one or two except for all the wasted space that the PDF layout has.

Also, it loads MUCH slower than a simple web page.

[This message has been edited by RKramden (edited November 09, 2004).]

[16v]

Originally posted by RKramden:
Can we get these in some form other than PDF, like a simple web page? It's six screens long, and it would all fit in one or two except for all the wasted space that the PDF layout has.

Also, it loads MUCH slower than a simple web page.

Thanks for the input Mr Kramden.

At this juncture Acrobat is the de facto method for disseminating documents online. For the sake of uniformity on the NER website, all documents are or will be dispensed in this format for three reasons:

1. reduced file size over the native document
2. ease of editing the native document for online display
3. a common interface experience for users whether they are looking at points standings for the season or meeting minutes.




------------------
Doug :)
NER.org (http://ner.org)
the16v.com (http://the16v.com)
briansgarage.com (http://www.briansgarage.com)

[lateapex911]

So Dick...I know you wewnt to a NE Div meeting, and the dude from Lime Rock was there....whats the word on new news?

Any paving getting done in the next decade? Drainage? Shower/bathroom improvements?

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[dickita15]

we (the narrc regions that race at lime rock) spent quite a bit of time meeying with Steve Potter the new LRP track manager.
according to MR. Potter the paving escrow acount exists and has $100,000 plus in it. current oil prices has driven repaving cost up to 1.2 to 1.5 million dollars. no timetable on repaving in the near future.
scca will see a 80% rent increase for 2005.
2004 we paid $11,750 per day. 2005 it will be $20,500 per day. we were told to expect that to increase by $3000 per day in 2006 and 2007. The track claims that they incurr about $10,000 a day in additional expences to run a scca day over what it cost for a drivers ed day. Some of those are percieved as state statute. some are percieved as gcr requirments. most of those are for extra staff. I would rather not get into specific of these cost on this forum but both sides agreed to work to reduce these and any reductions will be take off the rent.
i will save you getting out your calcuators now and say that the effect on entry fees will be a $80 to 100 increase if car counts do not decrease and more if they do. anything firmers on exact entry fees will not be available untill spring.
dick patullo

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...scca will see a 80% rent increase for 2005....entry fees will be a $80 to 100 increase...</font>

Holy S***, Batman!

Economically (and "businessly") speaking, it seems that things are coming to a head at LRP. It appears at first glance that LRP values its HPDE and school customers more than its SCCA weekend. From a business perspective, I can understand that; less hassles, less expense, less exposure, better community relations. LRP has a finite number of "competition" weekends available, so it's in their best interest to increase its prices to match the demand; they can probably get those rates from PCA, BMWCCA, and/or Ferrari Club if SCCA balks (supply versus demand).

However, I have to wonder if they're possibly shooting themselves in the foot. This situation reminds me a lot of general aviation and airports. Places like Bridgeport Airport realize they make a lot more money from corporate jets than they do from the "fish drivers" in Cessnas and Pipers. It's in their best economic interest to minimize the number of fish and maximize the sharks. However, they overlook the total number of fish versus sharks, plus the related business that the fish bring (restaurants, line workers, repair shops, tie-down fees, etc). Also, they tend to forget that all those shark drivers used to be minnows...

This sitatuion with LRP can be looked at one of two general ways: that LRP truly wants SCCA to remain a customer but its expenses are growing rapidly and it needs to raise revenues to cover them; or, economically speaking the SCCA weekends have a much lower profit margin than what can be gotten from other uses (HPDE, Barber) and they must raise prices to cover that margin and/or ask SCCA to go away. Could be (and probably is) a combination of both. Either way, the result is a significant increase in entry fees to the SCCA drivers. The result of THAT is a decrease in the number of folks wanting to pay to run at LRP.

Dick, I'm not one to complain about entry fees, because that's a small part of the total expenses for a race weekend. But the Region/Division must expect that as the prices rise, there will be a decrease in quantity demanded. Frankly, I think we're out of whack right now, because the quantity demanded is higher than the quantity we can supply, but I hope that increases of entry fees to $300-325 for a weekend at LRP won't bounce us down to the opposite extreme, where we won't have enough folks to cover the costs. It does appear the gravy train days are over, though.

People from the Mid-Atlantic and points south are AGHAST when I tell them how much it costs to rent LRP for a race weekend. Absolutely astounded. Everyone to a "T" says they would not put on an event at that price. Unfortunately, it does no good to go into an economic discussion and let them know we're smack-dab in between two major high-population metro areas with only one true road course, and that one being one of the highest-reputation ones in the country, and further that the chance of getting a new one built in the general area is about that of a snowball in hell, and that the LRP track management is WELL aware of all this...

However, if this doesn't bring the urgency of finding a suitable location and building a New England SCCA club track, frankly nothing will. I think it's high time to add a fee on top of entries to work towards a long-term solution to this problem. It will only get worse.

GregA

[lateapex911]

Just some interesting asides...

40,000 a weekend...

The track runs from march to november...do some math! of course other clubs get it cheaper, and the pro races probably don't pay at all. Of course there is rental I presume form the racing school, (although I understand the contract favors the school from when Skip owned the school AND the track), and other mid week events. Still, it does add up...

1.5 MILLION to pave 1.5 miles of track??

Wow....in 1957 it cost Jim Vaill $7,000 to do the track...


man...we need to build our own track ...antbody know good paving guy?

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[alfa]

Geez, now the Nelson's Ledges paving schedule is starting to make sense!

[moto62]

Wow! Entry fee nearing the $300 mark to run LRP!! No thanks. I'll have to scratch LRP off my schedule for next season. Look at it this way. Figure an average entry fee is $200 bucks anywhere else. That means I can enter a race an additional 125 miles away and end up spending about the same for a weekend.(mojo math-Xtra $100 in the gas tank is good for 25 gall of premium at Connecticut prices $2.50/gall. At 10 mpg, that's good for 250 miles, divided by two to provide for the ride home) http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif Funny, but it actually makes sense. There are probably four or five tracks within a five hour tow from me here in South Ct. Plenty more if I decide to venture further. I won't miss LRP at all. So sad.
Ray

[0100]

Originally posted by GregAmy:


However, if this doesn't bring the urgency of finding a suitable location and building a New England SCCA club track, frankly nothing will. I think it's high time to add a fee on top of entries to work towards a long-term solution to this problem. It will only get worse.

GregA

You said it. I remember, what was it like 5 years ago, when the NER started looking for a site. I was so excited. If only our elders built a bunch of road tracks in the NER, when it was actually possable like LRP. Now adays it seems impossible.

We really need this track in NH and NJ to get built.

[ulfelder]

When this LRP topic came up at the last road race board meeting, I suggested that we contact Topeka, explain the situation to Steve Johnson, and set up a meeting between him and Steve Potter.

This suggestion was quickly dismissed by other board members. I figured they wanted to try to handle the situation as a division, without running to National. But with Dick's latest report, I have to bring up this idea again.

LRP is raising its rates in a way that is damn near prohibitively expensive for three important SCCA regions. We are in grave danger of losing one of the premier race tracks in North America. How is this *not* an appropriate time to call in the chief?

I don't mean Johnson should come in ranting and threatening -- quite the opposite. I believe that with his tact and business sense, he could discuss the long-term importance of the relationship between LRP and SCCA, and perhaps persuade Potter that this trumps short-term revenue needs. Conversely, Potter could explain the business pressures he's facing. Maybe the two could work something out.

Steve Johnson is terrific about responding to email -- can someone explain to me why I shouldn't shoot him a message today?

Or maybe I'm behind (as usual!) and Topeka is fully aware of the LRP situation. Can anyone comment?

Steve U
05 ITS
Flatout Motorsports

[Greg Amy]

Amen, SteveU. NO offense to the folks working locally, but it's time to bring in the Big Guns CEO for a heart-to-heart talk.

I don't mean to be alarmist, but I see this as a serious problem. An IMMEDIATE problem. It is imperative, at a minimum, for the regions that run events at LRP to contact the membership *now* and determine what the entry counts will be at $300-325 a pop. Waiting until the first couple of races to find out the money's not there can be fatal to the region's financial health, especially considering they'll be risking over $40,000 per weekend. Remember how many entries we had for the Pro IT race at $325 per entry? Can we average 6-8 times that many for the Regionals in '05? Remember how we lost the Pocono date because the response wasn't there?

Let's be PROACTIVE on this one, and if necessary, cut bait and walk away. Can these LRP dates be sublet by SCCA to another group? What contractual rights and responsibilities do the regions have for these dates?

How can I get involved in these processes and negotiations (and please don't tell me to show up at the meetings in MA on a Friday night. Won't happen.) - GA

[bg43wex]

Originally posted by GregAmy:
Amen, SteveU. NO offense to the folks working locally, but it's time to bring in the Big Guns CEO for a heart-to-heart talk.

How can I get involved in these processes and negotiations (and please don't tell me to show up at the meetings in MA on a Friday night. Won't happen.) - GA

Big Guns?

I don't mean to be smug but HAHAHAHAHAHA!

sorry,

What exactly would Steve Johnson do to make LRP lower the 2005 rates? threaten to leave? our dates would be gobbled up in just a phone call to one of those more inexpensive clubs, remember we use the most track ammenities so we pay the premium. To my knowledge the only two groups that don't pay to race there are ALMS and Nascar, the rest pay a site fee.

Yes SCCA has a long history at that track as a matter of fact they will be forever linked together. But as we were told in order to preserve the legacy of Skip Barber these increses have to be made, the track explained that they have been loosing many hundreds of thousands of dollars every year and this is how they will repair it.

there are many reasons why LRP can't turn a profit, mismanagement of facilities, over spending, on going litigation... we have offered to assist in cost containment but have not recieved a call yet.

Don't get to jacked, just remember it's just business to them and a hobby to us this is a crappy answer but it is the truth.

this news affects 4 regions so we are all in the same boat, check with your local regional exec's to see if you can help.

Ray not attending event at LRP only hurts our club. not attending the Pro events hurts the track, just a thought.

Greg, if you "cut Bait" what happens to NY region and Mohud? they have no other tracks to run at and NNJR will be down to one at Pocono, don't forget divisional race dates are in demand, other regions will take our dates to their tracks, if and when this issue is solved scheduling sanctioned event that don't interfere with other regions will be almost impossible.

To the best of my knowledge we can not sublet our dates, besides at the new fee for W2W racing who else will pay it?

The track considers racing when you pass anywhere. if you want to run in November or April the cost is 6k a weekend cheaper.


brian m

[gran racing]

This is very disturbing to say the least. $300? Ouch! It will be interesting to see what impact this has both short and long term. How many people will be influenced not to become involved in SCCA racing because of the increased costs? Or as Ray said, go to other tracks.

Are these rate increases a done deal?

What would it hurt to have Steve Johnson speak with them? I realize that you / other SCCA officials may say the same exact thing as what Steve would, but LRP may view it differently. It is just human nature whether warranted or not.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[Andy Bettencourt]

BM,

It never hurts to introduce 'C' level players into a negotiation - and we are in some fierce ones. What it does is lend some *additional* credibility and urgency to the mix. A guy like SJ may hit it off with this guy in a professional or personal way that none of the local players could (or should for that matter).

It's a very valid strategy - one that would be interesting to try. I guess you have to ask what the downside is - and if properly debriefed by you and your team, I see it being positive - maybe not immediately or tangibly at first but you never know.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Greg Amy]

Brian, there are some conflicts in your response, including:

>>>...our dates would be gobbled up in just a phone call to one of those more inexpensive clubs

>>>...besides at the new fee for W2W racing who else will pay it?

>>...if and when this issue is solved scheduling (conflicts will result)

OK, so answer these basic questions:

- One, has anyone done any marketing or economic studies or polls to find out if running events at LRP with these increased entry fees will be profitable? Will they break even? Will they show a loss? If you've done so, and if you show a loss, do you have a rough idea of how much of a loss?

- Two, if you show a loss, can the region(s) afford to absorb that loss until this "situation is solved"? Can or will this be resolved? If no, are we willing to suck it up and pay the price in finitum to "preserve the legacy of Skip Barber?"

- Three, if so, does it have the support of the membership?

- Four, are you working towards contacting any other potential track suitors to see what the possibilities are?

These questions, of course, are rhetorical, because I know (collective) you have not had the opportunity to do that kind of study. But you must. Because if you don't, and if the competitor demand for entries at LRP drops *which is most assuredly will* then you will be faced with a serious potential for financial troubles. I believe the priorities for the regions should be as follows:

1. Preserve the financial health of the region,
2. Preserve the available track dates at LRP,
3. Preserve the divisional race dates on the SCCA calendar.

If you do not preserve #1, then you can't do #2; #2 must be in place for #3 to happen.

Frankly, while competitors love to race at LRP (and I love that it's just over an hour from my home) there is a limit to what folks are willing to pay to play. I'm not threatening to not pay, and in fact I probably will; however in the end the priority for competitors is the availability of races. I can race at NHIS, Pocono, the Glen, even Summit Point and somewhere in there is a financial and mental cost/benefit ratio that I'm willing to pay. That is, no doubt, the case for everyone regardless of their thought processes.

One option to minimize the effects and to preserve the priorities is to sublet the track dates on short-term basis. If you can absorb the losses and you can sublet the track dates, then it might be in the region's best interest to take the losses in order to retain the dates on the track and SCCA calendar.

Example: your marketing studies show that competitor entries will drop to the point where the region(s) could show a $7,500 loss per day (I'm just making up a number). You find that another organization is willing to buy the track date for $5000 per day less than you're paying for it. Therefore, it is in the region's best financial interest to sublet that date for a $5000 loss in order to retain the date for the future. It makes no economic sense to suck up the $15K loss by holding the race versus a $10K loss by subletting.

The problem is, though, YOU DON'T KNOW what the effect on entries will be, because you haven't had an opportunity to research it. Without further info on what's going on and what may happen you're simply HOPING that everyone will belly up to the bar and pay the price. A head-in-the-sand attitude just doesn't cut it, nor does playing the "loyalty" trump card by trying to guilt folks into paying the extra to show up and 'support the cause'. The region exists for the benefit of the membership, not the other way around, and individuals will work towards their own best interests, *just as the region should to retain its own financial stability*. Basic economics, Brian. As you said, this is a hobby, not an investment into the future.

You could very well be right, Brian: it's quite possible that Steve Johnson can do nothing in regards to the track rates. It's quite likely that the members of the local regions have negotiated as well as anyone could, and have done everything possible. However, fully understanding that the local regions are the ones that will have to deal with the outcome of these negotiations, I think it's in everyone's best interests to pull out all the stops and take every opportunity.

Greg

[lateapex911]

As I understand it, LRP has some issues that are problems of their own making, and some issues that are responsible for the increase that we are looking at.

I think the tactic is to attack those issues. As a Region, perhaps we can provide some of the manpower that is needed that the track is currently providing. So to help, keep your ears open and be willing to volunteer if that is indeed the need.

I also advise that this is not a "panic" situation. Brian is working on it, and I know others are as well.... smart people who know stuff about how the business aspects get done.

Bringing SJ in might be a good idea, but I think we need to do more negotiations first. I know there are issues that are in the works that haven't been resolved. lets get closer before we get too wigged out.

I sincerely doubt that we will actually see the increase remain as it has been proposed.

If that is the case, entry fees will likely go up, but not as sharply. Will it be THAT big a deal to pay 50 or 60 extra? Really...if you race at LRP 3 times a year, thats only $150 for the seasons budget. C'mon Ray, you know it'll take extra Corona for you to travel...put that in the mojo math! And $50 bucks is not even ONE tank of gas for us...if you are an hour from Lime Rock, you are at LEAST 2 hours away from any other track...thats 4 round trip, which is easily more than $50...so economically it's not logical to drive to Summit from Hartford to save $50.

I agree though, that an 80% increase IS insulting! And if the rates hold, they better provide a world class facility for the world class prices!

My top 3 list for improvements:
The showers
the showers
the showers....

oh....and the bathrooms (why do I have to pay a guy a buck each time to make a scummy place slightly- ever so slightly- less scummy?)

and the paddock drainage...errrr the LACK of paddock drainage. I swear we have enough guys in this club that could make the paddock drain in a weekend fo a few thousand...

oh yea..the PA sucks.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Diane]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
oh yea..the PA sucks.


There's a PA?!?! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/tongue.gif

Sorry, couldn't resist. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

What kept me from LRP last year (2003) is the fact that there are doubles at NHIS and none at LRP. I'd rather run LRP as it's so much closer. I'd like to see more Fri/Sat events there.

At least I had hot water in the showers but I could do with a little less mold. It was a nice balancing act trying to shower and dress without touching any surfaces (much less trying to figure out where to put my clean clothes)!


Diane

[bg43wex]

Originally posted by GregAmy:
OK, so answer these basic questions:

- One, has anyone done any marketing or economic studies or polls to find out if running events at LRP with these increased entry fees will be profitable? Will they break even? Will they show a loss? If you've done so, and if you show a loss, do you have a rough idea of how much of a loss?

Car counts determine profitability, there really is no way to predict how many people will show for any particulr event, what makes you show at one event verses another?
every region hopes for 200 at LRP most break even points start around there, less we lose more we profit.

- Two, if you show a loss, can the region(s) afford to absorb that loss until this "situation is solved"? Can or will this be resolved? If no, are we willing to suck it up and pay the price in finitum to "preserve the legacy of Skip Barber?"

Most regions do not have cash reserves, so absorbing a loss will not happen for very long, to answer your questions second part, will you wait out the price of gas or just stop using it? this is quite possibly the price for the near future, I don't like it either.

- Three, if so, does it have the support of the membership?

we won't know until we try, this will be discussed at NER's annual meeting in January.

- Four, are you working towards contacting any other potential track suitors to see what the possibilities are?

do you mean for the purpose of buying the track? or do you mean to sublet?

if it's sublet keep in mind we don't own the dates at the track.

1. Preserve the financial health of the region,
2. Preserve the available track dates at LRP,
3. Preserve the divisional race dates on the SCCA calendar.

you nailed it!


One option to minimize the effects and to preserve the priorities is to sublet the track dates on short-term basis. If you can absorb the losses and you can sublet the track dates, then it might be in the region's best interest to take the losses in order to retain the dates on the track and SCCA calendar.

we will not be pursuing anything like this.


A head-in-the-sand attitude just doesn't cut it, nor does playing the "loyalty" trump card by trying to guilt folks into paying the extra to show up and 'support the cause'.

this is actually what the track believes will happen.

brian m





[This message has been edited by bg43wex (edited November 16, 2004).]

[moto62]

Originally posted by bg43wex:
Ray not attending event at LRP only hurts our club.

Would you rather me hurt my wallet instead? This is just for fun, remember?


Originally posted by bg43wex:
not attending the Pro events hurts the track, just a thought.

What pro events? You mean like Busch, or import challenge? They still have those?


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Originally posted by lateapex911C'mon Ray, you know it'll take extra Corona for you to travel...put that in the mojo math! And $50 bucks is not even ONE tank of gas for us...if you are an hour from Lime Rock, you are at LEAST 2 hours away from any other track...thats 4 round trip, which is easily more than $50...so economically it's not logical to drive to Summit from Hartford to save $50.</font>

Check the mojo math again. I won't save anything but I could go a ways away,and besides, once you get out of Connecticut, a 12 pk of Corona can be had for $11.99, a gallon of premium fuel is under $2.00, and Marlboro's are $2.50 a pack(except in New York City). Now that's some savings http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif
Ray
PS- I do very much enjoy running at LRP but only at a fair price. I can just as well do without it.

[RSTPerformance]

I'm already planning on skipping all LRP races in the future because the entry fee is ALREADY to much let alone if it goes up. Where can you race and get less time on the track with more cars that go way over the insurance agreement we have with SCCA. Do the members of your region a favor and do not show up to LRP. Let them know we will not attend events with these huge rates. Once LRP gets away with it so will others. For the long run do us all a favor and DO NOT GO TO LRP if the entry goes up. It's up to all of us to take a stand. Do it for OUR club.

Stephen

[ulfelder]

Two things:

ONE:
Brian writes: "What exactly would Steve Johnson do to make LRP lower the 2005 rates?"

I'm not sure exactly what he would or could do, if anything -- but he might surprise us all with an effective solution that nobody (including LRP) has yet envisioned.

Let's turn it around: Could it *hurt* for SJ to be made aware of the situation? How about presenting him the facts and letting him decide when and whether he should get involved?

TWO:
Personally, I'm not especially price-sensitive on entry fees; as somebody pointed out, these fees are a low percentage of the cost of this silly hobby.

*But* ...

At some point, the fee becomes a slap in the face, and you feel like you're a jackass if you pay it. It's like gas stations near the Interstate that charge an extra 15 cents per gallon; you're willing to hunt around for more reasonable prices just to avoid being a sucker. By the time you've found reasonably priced gas, you may not save a penny -- but you don't feel like a sucker, and that's worth something.

A couple of the races I traditionally attend at LRP are 1-day events held in conjunction with driving schools. That means a 12- to 15-minute qualifying session (you heat your tires, then get 2 shots at a flying lap if you're lucky), then a 15-lap race.

That's not a lot of value even for $200. If the price tag goes over $250, we're in slap-in-the-face country, and I learn to love the haul to Pocono and the Glen ...

Steve U
05 ITS
Flatout Motorsports

[JLawton]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
Do the members of your region a favor and do not show up to LRP. Let them know we will not attend events with these huge rates. Once LRP gets away with it so will others. For the long run do us all a favor and DO NOT GO TO LRP if the entry goes up. It's up to all of us to take a stand. Do it for OUR club.

Stephen

The problem is clubs like the Porsche Club fill up MONTHS before the event with a long waiting list. There's always someone willing to pay more.

For me, to go to NHIS (or WG, or Pocono), it's two extra tanks of gas ($100), at least one night in a motel ($50-$100. No, I won't camp, I would rather pay $50 and get a good nights sleep and not shower in mold http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/frown.gif and pee in a REAL toilet http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif), more time away from my family. priceless http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif).

Yup, the higher cost sucks!! But at least road racing isn't going the way of Rally...... yet!!

------------------
Jeff L
#74 ITB GTi

[gran racing]

When a region rents the track, do they get it for Friday and Saturday always? Or is it just Saturday? If regions have it on Friday as well, subletting it to a HPDE club seems like a good idea at least on the surface.

I have to believe there is some solution out there.

Steve and Greg – you say that an $80 increase represents a very small portion of a race weekend expenses. But you might be surprised at the percentage difference this represents between racers. Based on my past seasons, this represents fairly significant increase in my (and many other people’s) weekend expenses. I realize this is not crucial to this discussion but this generalization bothered me a bit.

Brian, is this going to be discussed again at the next NER meeting?

------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[dickita15]

the fridays are not automatic. they are rented as a seperate day. if the two day weekend at the new prices does not work than we could cut fridays though I think we do have an obligation to run some drivers schools and i for one do like the two day regionals better than the one day. another option is to use the fridays for non race event for which the rent would be cheaper such as solo 1 or car control. this would allow us to keep the date but still cut cost to the racing program.

i do not believe that this will be the end of scca racing at lrp but profitability is all about car counts. car counts go in cycles. if we abandon dates during a down cycle it is very hard to get them back if things pick up.

I do not belive we can survey, model or predict what effect this will have on car counts. will ray not race at lrp, i doubt it.
will stephen boycot. who knows.

remember our relationship with the new manager is very new and his time on the job to date is short.

in the short term we will work on the offer to reduce the cost difference between racing and non racing days. if the track is as receptive as I hope we will be able to work together to make this much more affordable.
the savings could be significant.

we will not really know the results for next deason for a few months. the relationship between the 4 region and lrp is not simple.

dick

[Scott Koschwitz]

Thanks for the updates and input, Dick.

This question may be premature, but have NER and the other regions sketched a schedule for next season for dates at Lime Rock and other tracks? I'm in the process of planning my schedule and budget for next season.

I agree with you in that I like a two-day regional at Lime Rock better than the one-day regional, which is an awfully hurried schedule.

To make Fridays less expensive for NER, is it possible to schedule high-performance driving sessions for non-racers in the morning and a test session for those racing on Saturday in the afternoon?

I first drove Lime Rock at one of the high-performance driving sessions in 2001 and again in 2002. There seemed to be a lot if interest in these, but I don't know how NER fared financially with these.

[alfa]

In all of this, there is a theme that there are increased costs to LRP to run a race over an HPDE.

I can understand higher insurance costs, but are there other additional costs? Does a race require additional staff from LRP?

Just curious what's driving this cost increase.

[dickita15]

there is a tentative schedule that looks much like last year. I think nhis is locked down but there may be some shuffling at lrp. by december we should be pretty sure with the exception of any changes force by pro schedule changes.
half of the increase is applies to all dates and half is due to increased costs to LRP for wheel to wheel events. the second part is what we are working on first. some costs are insurance, some are extra staff.
of these some are gcr requirments, some are state requirments and some may not be neccesary. we have some work to do to sort them out. much of these have been built up over the years and the people who added them from both the track and clubs may be long gone
dick

[MMiskoe]

Has the track actually itemized the difference between SCCA and a non Wheel-wheel event? Considering that clubs like COM rent the track w/ corner workers while SCCA shows up with their own, I have a tough time finding where the cost difference is that much w/ the exception of insurance. I know some clubs scrimp on stuff like only having one wrecker or ambulance if they feel they can get away with the down time involved with only one repsonse crew, but that stuff is directly related to how many cars you have on track, not what the cars are doing on track.

What are these items that merit this cost increase? Any decent business will itemize what you are getting for your money, asking for it is not out of line.

And you guys griping about the showers - LRP bathrooms are the Taje-Mehal compared to Bridgehampton, Moroso, Mosport (before renovations). Lets get some decent asphalt to race on, that's what we're there to do isn't it?

Matt

[moto62]

Originally posted by dickita15:
will ray not race at lrp, i doubt it.dick
See! That is what the folks at LRP are thinking. They know we want to race there and for the most part the lesser financially challenged folks will pay the big dues. Sure I'll be at LRP, but it will probably be with EMRA or PDA and that's only if I need to test before I go venturing off someplace else. Dick P. Please work some magic because if the entry fee is more than $200 for a one day deal, I aint going and $225 will be the max for two days. Anyone else willing to share how much you would be willing to pay for entry fees???
Ray

[RSTPerformance]

Originally posted by moto62:

Originally posted by dickita15:
will ray not race at lrp, i doubt it.dick
See! That is what the folks at LRP are thinking. They know we want to race there and for the most part the lesser financially challenged folks will pay the big dues. Sure I'll be at LRP, but it will probably be with EMRA or PDA and that's only if I need to test before I go venturing off someplace else. Dick P. Please work some magic because if the entry fee is more than $200 for a one day deal, I aint going and $225 will be the max for two days. Anyone else willing to share how much you would be willing to pay for entry fees???
Ray

Those are the maximums that I will pay. Any more and I will drive to the glen or pocono for the same costs and more track time.


Stephen

[1stGenBoy]

Hi guys/gals. Out here in area 5 our entry fee is $300.00 minimum and sometimes more at a regional race at Road America. It has been like this for the last couple of years. Granted the $300.00 is for a double regional weekend but, a national race up there was $285.00 plus compliance fees if you were in one of those classes.
A single regional race weekend at Blackhawk Farms can run between $225.00-$275.00 a double regional at that track $305.00 to $325.00

Bob Clark

[Andy Bettencourt]

Bob,

Share some of the other details. LRP is a 'minimum' track time scene. 20 minutes practice/qualify and a 20 minute race. 40 minutes over 2 days with wet/muddy paddock, cold showers and cramped parking. The WORST value in Road Racing in the Northeast. Oh ya, 1.5 miles so not many cars on track means 8+ run groups with very restrictive 'hours of operation' due to local sound ords.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITS RX-7 and ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[moto62]

Originally posted by 1stGenBoy:
...Granted the $300.00 is for a double regional weekend ...
...a double regional at that track $305.00 to $325.00 Bob Clark

$300 for a double weekend is an absolute bargain. A little bit of a travel but a bargain. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif
Ray

[1stGenBoy]

"Share some of the other details. LRP is a 'minimum' track time scene. 20 minutes practice/qualify and a 20 minute race. 40 minutes over 2 days with wet/muddy paddock, cold showers and cramped parking. The WORST value in Road Racing in the Northeast. Oh ya, 1.5 miles so not many cars on track means 8+ run groups with very restrictive 'hours of operation' due to local sound ords."

Andy,
We get 20-25 min of qualifying and a 10 lap race each day on a double weekend at Road America. Now lets say you are running a ITB car. Lap Record for ITB at RA is 2:54 i think.Most guys around high 2:55-low 2:56. 4 mile track, 1st lap get everything warm,2nd-6th lap go for it. Checkered flag on the 6th or 7th lap.
Only 6-8 laps maybe on a qualifying session less,if you pit for tire temps, etc.
10 lap race which is Ok. Track time 60 min maybe per day. We also run 8 groups and have to be off track at 5pm although,we can start at 8am.
Hope this helps. Talk to you tonight on the con-call.

Bob Clark

------------------

[emwavey]

I'm sure that LRP is also looking at the amount of money it can generate by renting the track to us, as well as the liability in doing so...

However I'm also wondering that IF it were possible to generate a broader spectator base, would the entry fee for the drivers go down.

Before you blast my thinking, I'm just trying to offer a slightly different option...

Market the races, as they are some of the best damned races to watch,... which they are, and perhaps we can get some more revenue generated.

Think coverband in a bar: it's not how good your band is, but how many people you bring in and how much they drink.

Another idea, and I've seen this shot down before too, to bring more spectators in, offer a 30 - 50 dollar ride around the track... obviously limit the number of people. This does two things... attracts attendees, encourages new drivers and raises the revenue generated by our events.

Shoot away.

-dave
8)

[gran racing]

At the MARRS Summit Pt. race I went to last year, they allowed racers to take a passenger out in the car for a $10 fee. It was great taking my wife and friend around the track. I'm not sure how much money it generated, but it was a pretty cool idea. I'm also not sure how long this would last; after a while I'm sure the interest would diminish.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[Bill Miller]

Dave,

I think that's something they do at the Labor Day dbl, as party of a charity fund-raiser.

Even at $200/day, LRP is a rip! I wouldn't race there if it were 10 min. away! If you NE folks want some good racing, head down to the MARRS series at Summit Point!

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Dave,

I think that's something they do at the Labor Day dbl, as party of a charity fund-raiser.

Even at $200/day, LRP is a rip! I wouldn't race there if it were 10 min. away! If you NE folks want some good racing, head down to the MARRS series at Summit Point!



"The car" Which car? Your RACE car?? Or some Suburban or such at 30 MPH?


------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Bill Miller]

Jake,

I'd have to check the supps, as I just don't remember. I think it was in a street car, as there's probably too much liability to do it in a race car. Especially since only SS and T probably have passenger seats.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[emwavey]

I haven't thought about this in great detail, but yeah, Suburbans or SUVs in general would probably not be a good idea.

Also either limit the speed, might be difficult to do in a lead follow situation, or simply require helmets, and convertibles to have an appropriate rollbar.

See HPCCC guidelines.

-dave
8)

[gran racing]

Jake, just because it is a SUV, ect. doesn't mean it can't be a rush for passengers. At the Summit Point event I took my Tundra out on the track. We did not exactly do a parade lap! As my wheels were slidding and back end came around, the passenger could have plenty of fun. Although my wife still yelled at me even though we were on a track. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/confused.gif (not that I wasn't at all amused by this.)

I had gone to LRP growing up for many years. But seeing it from the car is much, much different. Seeing it from on the track changes a person's perspective and makes things more interesting.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[This message has been edited by gran racing (edited December 01, 2004).]

[FVZERO]

Having read the content of this thread I agree a solution is needed. The NER has expressed in interest in finding a track. What about Lime Rock? Could it be purchased?
At 20-40K per weekend an income approach to value could be derived on this facilities value. Given it has an active racing calendar, the rental side of a new track is already covered. Has any asked if the place is for sale?
On a reciprocal side, do the SCCA workers get paid for a non SCCA weekend at LRP?Perhaps the SCCA (local regions) should charge LRP for the pro events dependent on the pool of well trained scca workers.


------------------
fvzero

[bg43wex]

Originally posted by FVZERO:
Having read the content of this thread I agree a solution is needed. The NER has expressed in interest in finding a track. What about Lime Rock? Could it be purchased?

Maybe, everything is for sale! got 15+ million?

At 20-40K per weekend an income approach to value could be derived on this facilities value.

This price varies according to what organization is renting and what ammenities they require, I see your thought process but do not think it is that simple.

Given it has an active racing calendar, the rental side of a new track is already covered.

This equation varies from year to year, after this years steep price increase some small clubs may drop the track.

On a reciprocal side, do the SCCA workers get paid for a non SCCA weekend at LRP

What do you mean by Non SCCA weekends?
porsche club, Ferarri or Audi club? many clubs do have to pay in order to get workers to help out. most peak season weekends are taken up by Pro (which has been staffed by SCCA in the past) or SCCA events.

Perhaps the SCCA (local regions) should charge LRP for the pro events dependent on the pool of well trained scca workers.

The track does pay a nominal fee to help defer the cost of having 150 volunteers show to help. the amount they pay usually does not cover all expenses but it is close.



and one last note, sometimes a region will have to wait 5-6 months after an event before they are reimbursed for staffing a Pro event.(what a great deal)!

brian mushnick
NER club Racing Chair

[Rabbit05]

WOW...! I consider Lime Rock as my home track being only 1.5 hours away...But an increase in entry fees for the same/very little track time....Forget it.... $300 for a race that lasts only 12-15 minutes and a quilifier for 10 minutes.... NO WAy..I am on a super tight budget and to increase the cost $100 a weekend is huge for me. I thought I would never hear myself say this...But I think Lime Rock will be off my schedule... I'll be there.... if I win the lottery....:P

John VanDenburgh
ITC Rabbit 05