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Ed Tri-Region
01-15-2004, 03:09 PM
I am the Chairman of Tri-Region, the group that runs the June Regional and Aug. Double National at Pocono.

Our Regional has been loosing money and we may have to drop it from the schedule. It looks like we can't cut much out of the expense side, and we don't want to raise the entry fee, so that means we need to attract more deivers. So the question is:

If you don't race at Pocono why not? If not what can we do to get you to come?

We will be using the same course we used last year. Clockwise with the natural "bus stop" schane at the end of the Longpond strait, plus the normal 5 turns in the infield. That creats two, second gear turns, two high speed braking and passing zones, and gets ride of the long boring stuff.

Please help us make this event a success. Send me your ideas.

ED

RSTPerformance
01-15-2004, 04:37 PM
1. Get us our trophies... We are still waiting for ours from 2 years ago... first wins ever and nothing to prove of it. Not everyone in the family got their trophies from last year either. All could be made happy if we could get the picture (picture trophies) of our Audi’s that was featured on the back of pit talk. That one picture would take car of 2 days first and second place trophies…but no-one seems to want to help us on that.

2. Improve the tracks attitude.

3. Create some sort of evening activities to draw attention...

There is very little marketing or excitement created by your region for this event...

You need to do something to attract people other than just say we are going to run a very impersonal event in the middle of nowhere on a big straight track.

Personally I love the track, it is one of my favorites... it is a great road trip for the RST performance Racing family and I like the excitement of reaching top speed in my car... not many other race tracks offer that. We make Pocono a unique adventure weekend for our crew and us. We make it fun for ourselves though; I do not see the region doing anything to make it fun or worthwhile other than supplying the event date.

Please take this as constructive criticism and not an insult... I will still go either way.

Raymond Blethen

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http://rstperformance.bizland.com/rstsignature.jpg
RST Performance Racing
www.rstperformance.com (http://www.rstperformance.com)
1st and 2nd 2003 ITB NARRC Championship
1st and 6th 2003 ITB NERRC Championship
3rd 2003 ITB ARRC Sprint Race
4th 2003 ITB ARRC Endoro
1st 2003 AS NERRC and NARRC Championships

Tom Blaney
01-15-2004, 06:11 PM
First off I want to thank you for asking. It is few and far between times when the stewards actually take the time to see what we the drivers really want to do.

Personally I really enjoy Pocono, I enjoy the fact that we can actually get to wind up the car, and focus on drafting and high speed banking.

Personally although I really like the old configuration where we go counter clockwise and take 1, 2, backstraight, tunnel turn, then into the infield. I think the most demanding and technical is the opposite direction where we turn into the infield before 4, out to the back straight and then turn into the infield coarse before turn 2 WITHOUT THE CHICANE. This layout was fast, and fun and gave the track a whole new thrill.

Once again thanks for asking.

Tom Blaney

benspeed
01-15-2004, 07:00 PM
I think Pocono is a blast to drive. I have to ditto two of the last remarks though - a decent trophy makes a happy driver. I never got my trophy from two years ago either and it was my first top three. Some fun in the evening - worker raffle with some wine and beer also builds some comraderie and makes you want to see old/new friends.

A little marketing also helps - you asking what the drivers want on this site will really help. Maybe go for a vote on how the track gets configured. I personally like going into turn one (counterclockwise) with a full head of steam and "roll with the bowl".

Thanks for asking,

cheers,

benspeed

RSTPerformance
01-15-2004, 07:16 PM
You need to market the uniqueness... it is sooo different and the drafting and long straights are NOT boring, you need to figure out a way to address that... and turn it into a positive rather than a negative... saying we added a chicane in the back straight "gets ride of the long boring stuff" is not the correct wording. The track was never boring and never was a bad place to race was it??? Isn’t the entry numbers dwindling??? If they are that would mean that is was fun/attractive at some point, and you have to ask yourself; Why WAS it fun?

I would guess the bad press is really the downfall to the event… people bitch about trophies and about track layout and about organization… you need to change that image

PS: what are the track records??? Is it documented anywhere? If not then I think you need to go back and figure it out… many people in the smaller classes run for the pure race of a track record, as they don’t have any competition… maybe that would help? It would also show that the region was making efforts to make this event better…

Another idea… write an add/article inviting people to a “new” Pocono and submit it to the regional newsletters like “Pit Talk.” Only claim it to be a “new” Pocono event if you are actually going to make it better and change stuff.

Raymond Blethen

PS: No matter how much I want more competition at Pocono I will still continue to mention the trophy thing (bad press) in every post about Pocono until the problem is addressed correctly.

R RACER
01-15-2004, 07:52 PM
Put a lemonade stand at the chicane or get rid of it, its very hard to trust other drivers going in and out of it. I think there is more potential for crashes there then anywhere else on the track.

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Anthony Serra ITA 99

benspeed
01-15-2004, 10:10 PM
We can always coin a great negative marketing adage - "the lame chicane..." I didn't like the chicane either. That was the only part of the track I didn't like. Sure it's fast going into the banked turn but hey - that's what we like!

Heck - I'd write some marketing copy and volunteer recruiting copy for an enhanced event. I'm with Stephen though - when I do well in a race, I want some hardware. My 6 year old kid gets a better participation trophy for playing soccer!

For me a picture doesn't really do it.

Cheers,

benspeed

RSTPerformance
01-15-2004, 10:19 PM
benspeed-
(Its Raymond although Stephen would agree so its ok... everyone mixes us up especially in person!!!)

anyway if I even got the picture it would be better than nothing. (personaly I do like the pictures)

My Dad adds (he is afraid of the keyboard but likes the mouse):

The Chicane is awful in an AS car...

Unfortunatly he runs in that group of a lot of rich people who can't drive... I imagine it is especially horrible getting past by a GT car who then goes slower than a Showroom Stock or IT novice through the chicane. Deffinatly more of a hazard than it is worth. In an IT car you don't brake hard. IT cars are what % of the entry?

OK done posting, time for more input from others!!!

Raymond Blethen

lateapex911
01-16-2004, 03:29 AM
Hmmmmm.....why I ...and I'll put this politley,....am not a fan of Pocono. Well, there was the time tht it rained and rained, so I broke down and spent my hard earned cash on a garage. Stupid me, there was more water IN the garage than out! Something to do with the paddock being higher than the garage floor, and water finding the low spot. I have heard rumour that this has been fixed, but it does point to the general condition of the physical facility.

The course configuration keeps getting changed. As I understand it, the old flat out from the entrance onto the front straight just before pit in, all the way until the left "Devils elbow" is a thing of the past. Again, rumour has it that it was "too dangerous". Too bad, I liked the challenges of the drafting, and the fun of the banking, and the challenge of the tight turn after running at top speed. Seperates the men from the boys, so to speak, and I say that knowing I might not end up in the right category! I know we need to eliminate uneeded risks in racing, but if the course is anything but the one I described, I'm staying home. Too far to go to run a Mickey Mouse chicanery course in cold rainy miserable weather.

Also, the food blows.

JMHO!

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

joeg
01-16-2004, 08:57 AM
Ed--If you have to raise the entry fee, go right ahead.

All events are important. Hate to see any lost.

bgracing
01-16-2004, 11:17 AM
Ed,

please contact me directly so we can discuss this matter.

[email protected]

Brian Mushnick
NER comp board chair

racerdrew43
01-16-2004, 03:00 PM
I like Pocono, for the unique chance to run the cars wide open and where the drafting strategies can be fun. It seems true that it rains often and I hear people complain about it.
If you don't have an endurance race scheduled, you may look into the income potential/supliment of that. I'm sure Brian (hi Brian), could give you the logistics. NER pulled one of last year at NHIS and I know of a couple of us looking forward to going back. If it comes down to it, raise the fee. I, like joeg, would hate to lose the event. Best of Luck

RSTPerformance
01-16-2004, 03:12 PM
I would not suggest increasing the rates without changing something, you will only loose more people. a $50.00 increase to the weekend expence is a large inpact for the drivers and probably not much of an increase for the club. Not to mention if you don't make it better you will only loose more people thus you will not end up gaining the extra entree fee.

Make things more expensive without increasing the value is a SHORT term resolution to the problem.


Raymond

If rates increase more you are likely to loose 3 entrants... The trip is already our most expensive of the year.

[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited January 16, 2004).]

Terry Hanushek
01-16-2004, 06:53 PM
Jake


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Well, there was the time tht it rained and rained, so I broke down and spent my hard earned cash on a garage. Stupid me, there was more water IN the garage than out! Something to do with the paddock being higher than the garage floor, and water finding the low spot. I have heard rumour that this has been fixed, but it does point to the general condition of the physical facility.</font>

It's more than a rumor. The original garages, built in the early 1970's, were torn down in 1998 and replaced with a completely new structure. The new garages are modern and completely open in NASCAR style similar to NHIS and the Glen.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">The course configuration keeps getting changed. As I understand it, the old flat out from the entrance onto the front straight just before pit in, all the way until the left \"Devils elbow\" is a thing of the past. Again, rumour has it that it was \"too dangerous\". Too bad, I liked the challenges of the drafting, and the fun of the banking, and the challenge of the tight turn after running at top speed. Seperates the men from the boys, so to speak, and I say that knowing I might not end up in the right category! I know we need to eliminate uneeded risks in racing, but if the course is anything but the one I described, I'm staying home. Too far to go to run a Mickey Mouse chicanery course in cold rainy miserable weather.</font>

The course configuration has changed a few times over the years - a combination of safety and set up considerations. The current course that Ed described in the initial post retains the high speed characteristics of Pocono including NASCAR Turn 1 while adding new passing opportunities. With the positive feedback that we had from competitors last year, I do not anticipate any further changes,

Terry

Dave Zaslow
01-17-2004, 08:21 AM
Ed,

Thanks for asking. My two cents...

Make it a NARRC event. That should pick up a few cars.

Invite the MARRS people up again. Those were well attended.

A joint MARRS/NARRC event would be great. It's fun to run with people you don't see all the time.

I love running through Nascar 1 full tilt in my ITB car, but the chicane really kills it. I would prefer to run counter-clockwise through 1 and (if you must) put a fast, open bus-stop chicane before the Tunnel Turn to moderate the speeds and braking entering Devils Elbow.

Sterling
01-17-2004, 05:28 PM
I've driven the other configs, but I like the current configuration the best.
Like the Bus Stop too.

Sterling
ITB Fiat Spider
FP Lancia Scorpion

theracinglawyer
01-19-2004, 10:58 PM
I read and re read all of the posts and without much more you are in trouble.

That being said what do you do about it.

I'v observed over my 63 years that marketing brings sales and in this case people.

How do we market Pocono.

Put in some damage control:
1. purchase the throphys that the people won and we clear up a big point.
2. get the track personnel and the club members together so they see both are human, I know all of the track personnel ,personally and they would love to meet more SCCA people, and they are human just like us.
3. have the stewards roam around the paddock and talk to people.Too many times the young kids in racing are intimidated by the upper eschelone of SCCA.and they resent it very much.
4. Have a lunch break party instead of an after race get together. Too many people go home after the day. I know we can't drink during the day so save that part till after racing.
Make people feel wanted

We need to do one other thing invite other regions to our track, some suggestede we make it a MARRS event and a NARRC event combined. Lets do it.

To the leaders of the club --Desperate times take Desperate measures,--- try everthing that has been suggested within reason and write to every person who raced a car in an SCCA event at Pocono the last ten years and BEG them to come. Trust me they will.

I would hate to see us lose races at Pocono, I'm available to all to help where I can, all one has to do is ASK!


Love "the commander Mike Cefalo

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Mike cefalo "the commander"

RSTPerformance
01-20-2004, 01:27 AM
Mike-

#1: That would be great
#2: Seems like that would be a good step in the right direction... I think the big area that people complain about is the track employees that direct you were to park... the guy at the gate seems nice.
#3: Most of the stewards no me, so they in turn do say hi, but that might just be cause I am a Blethen!!! I would hope they are nice to other young drivers as well.

RSTPerformance
01-20-2004, 01:36 AM
Mike-

#1: That would be great, I would love my trophy!!!

#2: Seems like that would be a good step in the right direction... I think the big area that people complain about is the track employees that direct you were to park... the guy at the gate seems nice.

#3: Most of the stewards no me, so they in turn do say hi, but that might just be cause I am a Blethen!!! I would hope they are nice to other young drivers as well.

#4: Great idea to have a lunch party... make sure it is advertized in advance otherwise it will only be a nice surprise for those few that did show up.

Other comments: One of the events is a NARRC event, and they tried to make the other regional a NARRC as well last year, but there was a mix up. Being that it is a NARRC is a big reason we do go.

I like the idea of writting to all current members that have raced within the last few years (maybe not 10) and ask them to fill out a survey... be sure in the survey to ask why they have not come back (if they were not on last years entry) and ask what people would like changed... oh ya nand ask for details on what configuration each person likes, maybe even draw out all the options that have been used. After you recieve feedback, send a second letter with the preregistration packet to all people letting them know what will be different.

Personally I like the 3 day weekend with the enduro friday, race saturday, race sunday.... I think the region thought this would be the best way to gain entrants... I don't think that should change, but I don't think that worked alone... Add to it... Like someone said before asking here is at least a step in the right direction.

Raymond Blethen

jjadczak
01-20-2004, 01:51 AM
The staff attitude needs to improve a little. My Dad and I raced there last year and found our reception rather cold. Were both new to this and are always asking dumb questions.

Get rid of the chicane or move it closer to the tunnel turn if were going to run counter-clockwise.

Open up more of the paved paddock area. Were all good neighbors and will police own paddock area. That way when it does rain we won't be as miserable.

Run more enduros. Pocono is close to us and we would love to run there if there was some incentive. Were looking forward to running more enduros as we did our first late last year at the Glen and had a blast even though I was involded in a five car wreck in turn two that ended our race shortly. If there was a little more track time than it's worth our while. The double regional was nice too. Since we share our Porsche 924 (for not much longer) we liked the format of two different races like they have in NASA (no flames please).

I hope this helps. I would hate to see this event dropped off the schedule altogether because Tri Region really doesn't have a lot of options for race venues right now.

Jeremy "half a second faster than my dad at Pocono" Jadczak
ITA Porsche 924

bgracing
01-20-2004, 01:26 PM
I've followed this post closely, anything to do with events interests me.

1st. Raymond, I believe that the trophies you are refering to were from a NARRC event two years ago run by NNJR, this post was started about a Tri-Region event ( totally different).

2nd. Mike Cefelo, If you feel this strongly please don't wait to be asked to help,
Volunteer!
Regional staff's are not mind readers they can't tell who is willing to help unless you give them a hint.

3rd. Terry, although the garages were rebuilt 5 years ago they are a far cry from being as nice as the ones at NHIS. They have no doors,no work benches, air is only availible at the last bay and for electrical service you get a cord hanging from the ceiling. when it rains and we all know that it will on any given weekend many of the new garages flood.

there are many more garages and padock space availible but unfortunatly the track staff will inform you "NASCAR" will not allow you to use it.
this is a familar answer from the track.

Timing and scoring has to be accomplished from a school bus parked at start finish, and the regions are not allowed to use the tracks timing loop, this frequently can cause delays.

The restraunt is at the opposite end of the paddock, the infield is moist, there are no showers for woman...

I could go on but this is probably not the reason you don't get attendance, Keep the entry price down. Give competitors a well opperated event with maximium track time and have a reason for being there (series points). and always remember the party is a thank you for the competitors and the volunteers, make it good!

Brian Mushnick

RSTPerformance
01-20-2004, 05:45 PM
Brian-

I stand corrected... However my mistake is probably a worthy one to notice. I should know better however many others that race probably do not realize the different groups of people that run the events, and more so relate to a track and that it is SCCA (they don't pay as much attention to what region is putting it on other than to the point if they get points or not). So much negative feedback from going to a "track" is related to all the regions that race at the track. If the Tri Region puts on a better event I appologize for indicating it didn't. This error has given you more feedback though in realizing that other regions may be bringing your event down. I am sure that the other Pocono double ONLY gets more entries because it is part of the NARRC points series.

Raymond Blethen

PS: NHIS doesn't blame everything on NASCAR... why does the Glen and Pocono???

sccaflagger74
01-21-2004, 11:11 AM
I've hesitated in posting because I'm not a driver (I'm F&C) and thus don't have a financial stake in the Pocono events. However, I would like to comment on the track employees. The guys in the Pocono trucks have flat out told me that we (SCCA) are nothing more than a nuisance to them. They view us as a problem and their attitude shows it. I also believe that the cowboys in the red Pocono trucks are going to kill someone before long based on the horrendous experiences I've had with them. What's a way to improve relations with the track? Truthfully, I don't care. I've had too many bad experiences at Pocono to ever go back. I work F&C as a hobby and don't need the amount of stress that I've had at that track. Rausch Creek can't open soon enough.

Bob Lindenmuth
Philly Region
Nat'l F&C

theracinglawyer
01-22-2004, 08:04 PM
There have been thing said on this subject that need to be repeated over and over again if we are to "save" Pocono as a race site.

Get me the names of all the drivers in the last few years that did not get a throphy from a tri-region event.

The boys in the Pocono Red trucks get their additude from each other. They see "the Stock Car Experience" draw ton of people to that event day after day and don't have to deal with real racers. "The Stock Car Experience" gives you 16 laps on the Tri Oval for $960.00. Saying "Hello" to them never hurts. Every race and I have been only doing this for about 7 years the boys in the "Red Pocono Trucks" stops by to say "Hello". But I had to do it first and for many times before they would even respond let alone be friendly. Sometimes "we" Racers think people owe us something-- they don't. Pocono can tell us all to go home because the money they make on the two NASCAR RACES pays for the place for the whole year but its always nice to have the track open for other events like ours. And by the way the boys in the "Red Pocono Trucks" love to see the SCCA there. Said to me many times "beside the NASCAR boys your group are the only ones who race on this track". Maybe they like us and we don't know it.

We need to go to the Mini Convention and fight for some changes in the dated of our races. There are a lot of National Drivers who would love to race in the early enduro and the one in June but conflicts take us out of that.More entries =More Money.

For whatever reason the Corvette club of Northeast Pa get more than a Scca Regional event as does the Cumberland county Corvette club, and the Porsche and the BMW clubs and on and on.We need to find out why. Probably more Track time?Sombody should talk to those groups and see why they got to Pocono

The Regional events must be more organized easier registration and I am not saying it bad at Pocono. The Qualifying must be on time as should the races be within reason.

My reputation speaks for itself if you want help and I think I can get done what you want then all one has to do is ask.I learned a long time ago there are a lot of things I am not very good at.

Love "the commander" Mike Cefalo


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Mike cefalo "the commander"

RKramden
01-23-2004, 09:10 AM
The one thing that has not been mentioned in all this is that this year the regional event runs against the MoHud race at Lime Rock.

Running two regionals at tracks that are only about 150 miles apart seems to be a great formula for diaster for both.

tdw6974
01-23-2004, 06:23 PM
This Year there is a conflict with the F-1 Race running the Same weekend.

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Tom Weaver: Logistics & Technical Support Manager IE truck driver for 1980 RX-7 ITA #63
"Hemi haulin' Rotary"

RKramden
01-25-2004, 04:00 PM
Much more important than the F-1 race (but less than the other regional) is the National at Beaver Run the same weekend.

theracinglawyer
01-25-2004, 04:13 PM
Beaver Run National June 19-20

Pocono Double Regional June 19-20

That Really is a Blunder when you are trying to increase entries.

Maybe at the Mini Convention we can help each other with dates.


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Mike cefalo "the commander"

tdw6974
01-25-2004, 10:34 PM
Also looks Like a Regional Mo Hud June 19th at Limerock just to make it tougher.

theracinglawyer
02-04-2004, 11:59 PM
One thought that all should consider about Pocono.

Since you are competing with other tracks for racers put on a weekend enduro. Yes a weekend enduro.that will make it a unique event, something that is desperately needed to get people to come to lonely Pocono when they have so many other choices.

If the open wheelers don't like it too bad they will have to get their own event

Take a chapter from the book of the washington D C region. The 12 hours at the point is a $700.00 entry fee for the 55. or so teams that are allowed. The field was sold out in less than 1 Hour-get it one Hour.

Think how many cars can fit on Pocono's track and then do the Math.

Make it different and they will come.

Something to think about!!!!!!!!!



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Love "the commander"
Mike Cefalo
BE SAFE GO FAST HAVE FUN

dominojd
02-05-2004, 06:45 AM
Just to add alittle fuel to the fire. From my understanding there will not be an SCCA regional at Pocono for these dates. A local HPDS has bought those dates from tri region. So that means only one regional at Pocono this year. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/frown.gif
Even though I have a slow ITS 4 banger I still like that place. Plus being only 45 min from home helps too.

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Crazy Joe
#7 ITS pilot

benspeed
02-06-2004, 12:19 AM
Crazy Joe - tell me it ain't so! I already had my two dates for Pocono on the calendar.

I think the "commander" is right - better make something special or the dates will drift through our fingers. Not to mention Pocono is only about an hour and ten for me. Everyting else is three or more. Joe - you going to the NNJR club meeting at the exchange?

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BenSpeed
#33 ITS RX7
BigSpeed Racing
NNJR

dominojd
02-06-2004, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by benspeed:
Crazy Joe - tell me it ain't so! I already had my two dates for Pocono on the calendar.

Joe - you going to the NNJR club meeting at the exchange?



Yes it is so. Unfortunately.

Where is it, when is it, and what is it?



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Crazy Joe
#7 ITS pilot

benspeed
02-06-2004, 02:56 PM
I have May 15-16 which is the NAARC race and June 19-20 was the NYSRRC/Tri-Region race.

Looks like May is the only race. What a shame to lose the date.

The NNJR meeting will be at the Exchange Restaurant in Rockaway NJ - the meeting is every 3rd Tuesday around 8:00 PM - good eats & beers.

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BenSpeed
#33 ITS RX7
BigSpeed Racing
NNJR

[This message has been edited by benspeed (edited February 06, 2004).]

theracinglawyer
02-06-2004, 10:24 PM
Dear Ed. I went back to the beginning of this post and see a lot of suggestions, and not a single response from you.

Where are you?

Now I see that you sold, Gave away, bartered, the date of the Regional Event at Pocono in June. Why would you do that in the time you asked for suggestions and got a ton of great ideas(mine excluded)and then just threw in the towel?

My DAD ALWAYS WARNED ME ABOUT PEOPLE WHO GET TO POSITIONS OF LEADERSHIP AND CAN'T LEAD.usually they lead their troops into battle and don't know what to do and as a result they lose their men to the enemy.

You may have lost a whole lot more, respect that is hard to replace.

At least have the courage to tell your men the true story if in fact you gave away the Pocono dates.


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Love "the commander"
Mike Cefalo
BE SAFE GO FAST HAVE FUN

dickita15
02-07-2004, 08:20 AM
well mike, it a wonder that anyone takes on a job like race chair when folks like you brand them as lacking courage. I have no knowledge as to the final decision, other than what i have read here, to sublet the date but when the date was first announced the region managment did not know if it would run. the date they had hoped for was the next weekend. the 6/19-20 weekend being against a narrc at lime rock. Tri region knew it would be very hard to pull this off. subleting the date allows them to retain a date for the future while not running an event this year that could damage the finacial heath of the regions. it is unfortunate that pocono does not have a large driver base of it's own and a regional there does not pay for itself unless it is a narrc or marrs race. Ed owes you nothing and you owe him an apology.
dick patullo
meb # 96265
ner scca

theracinglawyer
02-07-2004, 10:46 AM
Dear Paul,

I admire you for defending the originator of this post but now more than ever I would,like most who read this post to hear from him, unless of course he want's to exercise his fifth Amendment right against self incrimination.

We would like to know the real story after all he started this post and asked for suggestions for more people to come to Pocono. For the record My son Marc and I decided to forgo a National Event to come and support Pocono, at the expense of valuable poins which we need. Marc so he can repeat as The Northeast Division Champion in SSB and Me so I can at least qualify for the "Runoffs". Call that what you want but that needs no apology, after all we want to help. If the Leaders of this club (and for the record Leaders owe it's members leadership)have the Brass to make it a Enduro weekend you'll be asking for a waiver to put more cars on the track because they will be knocking the doors down to get in.

Read my original post and you will see I OFFERED TO GET THE PLACE GOING, ALL ONE HAS TO DO IS ASK.

35 PEOPLE REPLIED TO THIS POST THAT'S MORE THAN ANY OTHER, READ THAT ANYWAY YOU WANT BUT IT SHOWS INTEREST.

PAUL I NEVER SAID HE LACKED COURAGE-- YOU DID-- ALL I SAID WAS " at least have the courage to tell your men the true story if in fact you gave away the Pocono date"

I choose my words very, very carefully.

My purpose was not to do anything but to get the leader of this post, the Chairman of the Tri Region to respond to a question.

Did he give the Pocono date away and when and why?


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Love "the commander"
Mike Cefalo
BE SAFE GO FAST HAVE FUN

ITSRX7
02-07-2004, 01:51 PM
First of all, why don't you two get your own seperate Usernames? I can't tell who is writing and when.

As far as you chosing your words "very, very carfully", it DOES NOT appear that way. If you wanted to know what the story was behind the date getting let go, you could have just stated that. Instead you come off like you are on the attack - WITHOUT knowing the facts. You would think someone who calls himself the 'racing lawer' would get the facts, THEN demand accountability.

Dick (not Paul - you sould READ carefully too), was right on the money with his reply. Ask first, blame later. IF you didn't intend to blame first, read your post out loud to yourself with the inflection you imposed with CAPS. Ease up.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

lateapex911
02-07-2004, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by theracinglawyer:
Dear Paul,

Who the hell is Paul ????


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> .....have the Brass to make it a Enduro weekend you'll be asking for a waiver to put more cars on the track because they will be knocking the doors down to get in. </font>

A guess at best. I for one, will NOT be there that weekend, regional, enduro or whatever.

Keep in mind that enduro financials are different as well. Less drivers means higher entry fees. If the fee is too high, the drivers don't materialize, and the region takes a loss. If the fee is too low, they can't break even. With the other regions events occuring the same weekend, any regional or enduro would be a risk, at best, and more likely a folly.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> 35 PEOPLE REPLIED TO THIS POST THAT'S MORE THAN ANY OTHER, READ THAT ANYWAY YOU WANT BUT IT SHOWS INTEREST. </font>

INTEREST DOESN'T PAY THE BILLS!!! Why am I shouting??


PAUL I NEVER SAID HE LACKED COURAGE-- YOU DID-- ALL I SAID WAS " at least have the courage to ...."
I choose my words very, very carefully.

Again, who is this Paul guy??

C'mon...what are we idiots??? A bunch of lawyer speak there! The logical conclusion, and I can't believe I have to spell it out, is that you are telling him to have the courage to do something, and you have charged him with no response. Not a big jump to see that you feel he's lacking ....

In short, an update here would have been a nice courtesy, but he certainly is under no obligation to do so. He posted a question, got some answers and that's that.

You have said you were going to change your plans, now you can change them back. No harm no foul. What's the big deal?

Anybody seen a Paul in here?

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited February 07, 2004).]

theracinglawyer
02-07-2004, 05:44 PM
Looks like we will lose Pocono altogether as a SCCA site, call me toll free and I'll explain because writing doesn't seem to work.



------------------
Love "the commander"
Mike Cefalo
BE SAFE GO FAST HAVE FUN

theracinglawyer
02-07-2004, 05:47 PM
Looks like we will lose Pocono as an SCCA race site altogether, if interested call me tool free 1-800-442-2000x212 and I'll explain, because writing doesn't seem to work

------------------
Love "the commander"
Mike Cefalo
BE SAFE GO FAST HAVE FUN

benspeed
02-07-2004, 11:03 PM
My position is that a brief update would be the courteous thing to do to the interested members on this post. If you ask for suggestions and then take a different plan, well an update would go a long way to help people understand. I am pretty disappointed we lost the date and I thought there were quite a few folks who offered help but we didn't get any direction on how to provide the help i.e. event marketing team. There is plenty of time between now and the event to put a few suggestions in motion and market the event a little better to ensure the turnout.

If the date was about to be sublet, it might have been the catalyst to really get people motivated to ensure turnout.

I hope the date isn't lost but it looks that way.

------------------
BenSpeed
#33 ITS RX7
BigSpeed Racing
NNJR

JohnRW
02-08-2004, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by theracinglawyer:
Dear Ed. I went back to the beginning of this post and see a lot of suggestions, and not a single response from you.

Where are you?

Now I see that you sold, Gave away, bartered, the date of the Regional Event at Pocono in June. Why would you do that in the time you asked for suggestions and got a ton of great ideas(mine excluded)and then just threw in the towel?

My DAD ALWAYS WARNED ME ABOUT PEOPLE WHO GET TO POSITIONS OF LEADERSHIP AND CAN'T LEAD.usually they lead their troops into battle and don't know what to do and as a result they lose their men to the enemy.

You may have lost a whole lot more, respect that is hard to replace.

At least have the courage to tell your men the true story if in fact you gave away the Pocono dates.




In the original post, Ed was asking for people to write to him with input. He wasn't calling for people to bloviate on the web about his goals, intentions or skills. You took it in that direction, and you made it personal, too.

Tri-Region (a group of three SCCA Regions) runs races at Pocono. They have a governing council. Ed is a member of that council, and is the current chairman. He doesn't decide anything by himself.

Who here has written/emailed him ? Who here has talked to one or more of them on the phone about Pocono dates ? Just taking a personal shot on the web doesn't count.

Web boards are a lousy place for discussion, since everyone is an 'expert'. You just need a computer and a phone line, and suddenly your endowed with great 'wisdom', and are indistinguishable from all the other 'wise experts'.

I've emailed Ed and several other of the Tri-Region board. I've talked to several of them on the phone. It wasn't hard. They're not hiding. I will guarantee that they'll eventually walk away in disgust if their character is impugned by 'wise experts' on the web.

Mike - you said that you choose your words carefully. Well then, I'm going to have to assume that you've posted the quote above due to discussions that you've had outside the venue of this board, because there sure as hell hasn't been anything presented here that would lead any of the rest of us to infer what you have inferred above. Please enlighten us. If you haven't been working in the background on this issue, then I'm going to give you 'gasbag' status.

theracinglawyer
02-08-2004, 10:43 PM
John, Just for the Record I put My full name on My comments,and my email address and toll free number and surprising a lot of people call and write and tell me a whole lot of information.

Surprising most people are helpful and concerned and informative.

Read my posts over and over and you'll see the realationship I have with Pocono.

Everytime I have offered to help I am ignored so that now the hammer is about fall I'm going to stand by and watch it fall.

The driving schools and car clubs are sucking up dates and they are making money doing it. Does that tell you something?It tells me they know how to run a business and do it well.

I did't start this post I only tried to help and got a face full of it.

Ask whose dealelship supplies the cars for the NASCAR boys to run around in, and meets with the owner of the track on a regular basis.

Call me Toll free and I'll TALK TO YOU PERSONALLY.

------------------
Love "the commander"
Mike Cefalo
BE SAFE GO FAST HAVE FUN

theracinglawyer
02-08-2004, 10:47 PM
John, Just for the Record I put My full name on My comments,and my email address and toll free number and surprising a lot of people call and write and tell me a whole lot of information.

Surprising most people are helpful and concerned and informative.

Read my posts over and over and you'll see the realationship I have with Pocono.

Everytime I have offered to help I am ignored so that now the hammer is about fall I'm going to stand by and watch it fall.

The driving schools and car clubs are sucking up dates and they are going to get more and they are making money doing it. Does that tell you something?It tells me they know how to run a business and do it well.

I did't start this post I only tried to help and got a face full of it.

Ask whose dealelship supplies the cars for the NASCAR boys to run around in, and meets with the owner of the track on a regular basis.

Call me Toll free and I'll TALK TO YOU PERSONALLY.

Mike Cefalo--Email [email protected] Toll free # 1-800-442-2000-x212

------------------
Love "the commander"
Mike Cefalo
BE SAFE GO FAST HAVE FUN

Mattberg
02-09-2004, 01:40 AM
Interesting. First, I know Mike simply came to the same deduction that I and many others probably did. Suggestions were asked for to save a race and it seems that the conclusion was foregone. Why bother asking? Good leaders don't leave themselves open to such perceptions. Second, you want to be a racechair, be ready to take some heat. Can't please all the people all the time and if you want to run the show, be accountable. Dick, you always jump to the defense of officials yet you never ask for accountability from same for lack of results. There are some basic skills related to putting on an event and from all the comments I see here, marketing seems to be one of them that is sorely lacking. If you can't do the job, don't volunteer. You just want us to say the fact that someone would volunteer to do the job is meritous enough to ignore the actual outcome...no race. Remember who the customer is and what the product is...you got 'no product. This is not a social organization that can ignore whether races happen or not. It is a racing club supported almost exclusively by racers racing. No racing? no money, no club. I'll get to that in a minute.

If you want to run a successful event you need to do something other than publish its "potential" (tongue in cheek) existence at a website or newsletter and ask for ideas that will never be implemented. Mike hit the nail on the head. I think Dick totally discounted Mike's insight into what went down here and the ramifications both short and long term.

Not to toot my region's own horn but a look at the SEDIV might do some of these regional race officials some good. My last four regional races had 108 (yup), 91, 60 and 79 entries....in my racegroup! We consistently attract 300+ cars. How? Pro IT, The SARRC, Regional Series, Enduros and Vintage races have been added to most if not all events. I heard radio ads all the way up on my last trip. Corporate sponsorships are in place. We've made great efforts at electronic timing and automated registration. Less important in my mind but seemingly important to many, trophies are at tech after each racegroup and they come to YOU. The other thing is track time. We run a car in the NE as well and I am always amazed at the lack of track time for the money. Just an example... Atlanta in March I ran an RX-7 (ITS) which ran in all of the races. I think I paid a total of $350 in entry fees for something like 3.5+ hours of track time...Having done another 2+ hours in the previous test day I was so beat I sold one of my SARRC races and half my Enduro to another driver and covered all of my entry fees. In addition, I received a contingency check the last week for just one of those series that actually covered all of my entry fees for the year. What does all this add up to? MARKETING! And...HAPPY CUSTOMERS.

Back to the cancelling of a race. The scariest problem with all of this has not been cited. The event in question was sold out to an HPDE... I said many months ago that as a National organization, if we didn't get our act together with respect to competition, marketing, staying current and building some youth into our product and membership, that we'd be begging 18 year old rice racers to race with them. When they can put on events with 4,000 spectators and we can't get 100 participants...uh...a warning sign? Ya' think? I better go practice my drifting....:-)

lateapex911
02-09-2004, 04:09 AM
Originally posted by Mattberg:
.....Remember who the customer is and what the product is...you got 'no product. ...... No racing? no money, no club.....

Ok, since nobody here seems to want to point to the facts in the manner, lets suppose that the Tri Region sub-letted out the date this year, due to the fact that it was in confict with two other established dates inclose geographic proximity. To run a race weekend, several items need to be available, but the major two are drivers, and workers. Yes, I know some of you don't think workers are required to put on an event, but I suggest the insurance carrier, among others, begs to differ.

So what's better, having an event that requres a known expenditure, draws little income (resulting in a loss) and results in a sub par event due to un-staffed specialties, or taking a years break until a non-conflicting date can be gotten? Some regions don't have a lot of events available to them, and one major loss can put them under. (And we can discuss whether we need as many regions as we have, but lets do that in another thread.)



Not to toot my region's own horn but a look at the SEDIV might do some of these regional race officials some good. My last four regional races had 108 (yup), 91, 60 and 79 entries....in my racegroup! We consistently attract 300+ cars.

C'mon, lets compare apples to apples. How long are the tracks you refer to? Fact is that a race group at either Lime Rock or NHIS can't be more than 40 or so cars, due to the length of the track. After that, it's simple math. Curfews dictate when you start and finish, and the rest is division. It is extremely difficult to provide quality time for the participants when you can't start until 9, you have to have quiet time at lunch, and shut down is before 6. Count yourself lucky, but take no credit for, your regions luck in it's track availability.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> I heard radio ads all the way up on my last trip. </font>

And why would a region advertise when it can't accept any more entries without shortening track sessions...sessions that you consider too short? Around here, it would be a waste of money.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> In addition, I received a contingency check the last week for just one of those series that actually covered all of my entry fees for the year. What does all this add up to? MARKETING! And...HAPPY CUSTOMERS. </font>

Interesting, but I'd like a more complete picture. What did you finish in your class at the end of the year? How many guys were in your class? What did they pay? What about the other classes? How far down do they pay? What I'm getting at is the distribution, and it's actual effectiveness. Is just a redistribution of entry fees? Or does it add funds to actually drive the cost of racing down to more than the guys lucky enough to wind up on top?

If it comes from corporate funding, that's great. Who organizes and arranges that? Region volunteers?



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

lateapex911
02-09-2004, 04:32 AM
Originally posted by theracinglawyer:


The driving schools and car clubs are sucking up dates and they are going to get more and they are making money doing it. Does that tell you something?It tells me they know how to run a business and do it well.

No, it tells me that they are driving schools and car clubs . Which are different than a racing club that offers racing and insurance to a vast array of racing classes and cars.

We can talk about how the SCCA should get into the driver ed business, as that's where the future racers are likely to originate, but that's another thread.

To compare a racing organization to a lapping organization, is completely irrelevant, and to place the difference on marketing is plain misleading. It costs less to put on a lapping day, less entries are needed to break even, and that results in more track time. Racing events take a more committed participant, and requires more of them. A much tougher enterprise.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

dickita15
02-09-2004, 09:27 AM
well hello matt, how the heck are you.
I understand how you and mike could come to the same conclusuion but that does make it the right one. I also understand your perception that i support people that contribute to the running of events. there is a lot of truth in that perception. While I understand that you think I do not hold these people accountable I belive that perception is false. I do plead guilty to not trashing volunteers in public forums. I am not sure who Tri region Ed is but I do know something about the situation that the regions that run poccono have to deal with. I do not think there was a solution to this date at this track this year but Ed was making an effort to find one. I could care less about personal attacks between regular posters in a rules thread but what is gained by crappy shots like Mike's aimed at someone who tried to seek input. based on what i read in this thread i feel mike's comments were out of line, and i said so.
I know Mike, though he does not seem to know me, i used to race against him when he and marc were in ITA. I have spoken to he and his son numerous times, but based on what i know and have read i belive his comments were wrong.
By the way re read jakes comments on track length and the impact on race organazation and track time. this has a huge impact. I admit there a many things we could do to make the program better. the only thing lacking is people to imlement them. i admit that there are volunteers in positions that could do the job better, that are hurting the effort to make the race program the best it can be. the only thing lacking is more, better people to do those jobs. I know it take a lot of time and money to campaign a car, and it take a lot to volunteer to advance our programs, and this is more than some are willing to do. But unless people step forward and try to make it better it will not get better. yes, volunteering takes time from your racing, but that is the only way to make a difference. trashing volunteers contributes nothing.
dick patullo
meb# 96265
ner scca

ITSRX7
02-09-2004, 10:33 AM
The biggest issue I have here with Matt and the Cefelo's comments is simple:

Just because I ASK you for your opinion or help, doesn't mean I have to USE it. If someone posts a bad idea, does that person have the right to stand up and say, "you asked me for my thoughts and you still did nothing!" Nope. Ideas are just Ideas unless you called Ed and told him you would volunteer.

As Dick stated, this date was as good as lost for the season and Ed's message seemed to be a last ditch effort before letting the date go for the year. I bet you the Tri-region tries to implement SOME of the ideas thrown out there by this group.

A simple request for an update would have sufficed - instead it looks and sounds like both of you are blaming HIM for the lost date and for not proactively updating. He asked for some opinions, he got them and that's that. He OWES us NOTHING. Would it be nice to know what is going on? Sure it would - that is what I would have ASKED instead of slammed him.

No excuses.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967

benspeed
02-09-2004, 11:31 AM
The one thing I will add is that the folks who care about the race date should turn out for the NNJR membership meeting on 2/17. The Exchange Restaurant in Rockaway hosts the meeting at 8:00 PM. I think some planning for the event next year should start now. Matt - the driver from the SE, described some things I'd like to see up here. We start working now - we make the events the best they can be.

All this comes down to is better marketing, communication and coordination. We should also consult with others on event planning. I haven't done this type of thing before but I'm signing up at the meeting.

Cheers,

------------------
BenSpeed
#33 ITS RX7
BigSpeed Racing
NNJR

ITSRX7
02-09-2004, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by benspeed:
...but I'm signing up at the meeting.

Cheers,



Hey! There is a novel idea...less chatter on the web and more actual volunteering. Ben, your help will be greatly appreciated I am sure.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967

[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited February 09, 2004).]

Terry Hanushek
02-09-2004, 06:29 PM
Mike

I just got back from the National Convention and read all of the speculation about the June Regional at Pocono.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Where are you?</font>

Ed is not a regular contributor or lurker on Internet BBS. He does read the IT BBS and this thread periodically. As a member of the Tri Region board, I'll try to provide some insight.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Now I see that you sold, Gave away, bartered, the date of the Regional Event at Pocono in June. Why would you do that in the time you asked for suggestions and got a ton of great ideas(mine excluded)and then just threw in the towel?</font>

No one person made the decision on this year's June Regional. After a long and painful discussion of the event, the entire Tri Region Board voted to bypass the regional and sublet the track this year.

While there were many factors in our deliberation, the most compelling ones were (1) the 2003 event which had very poor support resulting in a HUGE financial loss and (2) the 2004 schedule conflicts making this year's event even more difficult. Our final decision was based on the fact that we could not absorb a similar or larger loss in 2004 and continue to organize events at Pocono in the future.

Ed started this thread before our meeting seeking competitor input to make our events more attractive (and better attended). Unfortunately, many of the suggestions cannot be implemented in the short run e.g. MARRS and NARRC sanctions are unavailable in 2004. The input has been valuable and we will attempt to utilize it for future events.


My DAD ALWAYS WARNED ME ABOUT PEOPLE WHO GET TO POSITIONS OF LEADERSHIP AND CAN'T LEAD.usually they lead their troops into battle and don't know what to do and as a result they lose their men to the enemy.

You may have lost a whole lot more, respect that is hard to replace.

I indicated that the board deliberations were complex. Certainly, one of the factors we examined was the impact of missing a year. In the end, the negatives far outweighed the positives and we were forced to abandon this weekend while retaining our options for 2005 and beyond.

The other side of leadership is not leading your men into battle that has a very high probability of failure. While the battle analogy is a bit extreme, many alternatives were examined and a hard decision was made to protect Tri Region's resources.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">At least have the courage to tell your men the true story if in fact you gave away the Pocono dates.</font>

I hope that this posting has given additional insights on the Tri Region decision. If you have any other questions or would like further discussion, please feel free to contact me or the Tri Region reps from your region.

Mike, Tri Region sincerely appreciates the support that you and Marc have given us in the past years. We value your input and would like you to participate in our future planning.

Terry

[This message has been edited by Terry Hanushek (edited February 09, 2004).]

benspeed
02-09-2004, 09:30 PM
Terry,

Thanks for the update - we understand that the region cannot afford to go into the red on events. Let's give it a tip top effort for '05 as a team and make sure we offer some engaging things that will bring out the membership. NAARC points, enduros, trophies, proactive marketing and my favorite end of day thing - a cold beer!

Cheers,



------------------
BenSpeed
#33 ITS RX7
BigSpeed Racing
NNJR

theracinglawyer
02-09-2004, 10:07 PM
Terry, thanks for the update, I sorry we had to give up the date at Pocono but then I'm used to making economic decisions and they usually are not easy.You explination helps us better understand.

Pocono is as they say is our home track and any races there are easy for us,so it effects us more when we lose a race date, like your home team lost a date. But if I'm still kicking next year we won't lose it again.

I just wish I knew we were in financial difficulty maybe I could have done something, but that's for later.

To all of you who found fault with me Thanks for letting me know.
For those who supported me thank you.

I'll help you with anything I can.

For as much as I like Skiing I'm going back to Florida for the rest of the winter.

Write and tell me what you think I can help with, Marketing is what I like and do best.




------------------
Love "the commander"
Mike Cefalo
BE SAFE GO FAST HAVE FUN

lateapex911
02-09-2004, 10:09 PM
Terry-

Thanks for filling us in, and it appears that the end result was as some posters presumed. I think the most prudent direction was chosen.

Also, your update was very diplomatic.

Regards,

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

Greg Amy
02-09-2004, 10:36 PM
A constructive suggestion: The next time that such a trial balloon is floated to this board (or any Internet board, for that matter), it would be very helpful to provide the context.

I, myself, thought the original request was for a longer-term decision, such as next year; not a short-term one, such as "if we don't get positive feedback within the next couple of days we're going to drop the date for 2003." Had I known the background for the info request I would have responded - positively - and probably committed to appearing at the event in order to save it.

I suspect many others on this board feel the same way and also feel misled by the initial question.

Greg

RSTPerformance
02-09-2004, 11:44 PM
Terry-

Thanks for the update... I knew if we were patient we would get one http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

I would suggest after seeing all the upset responces here that it might be in a best interest to have an article sent to all the Northeast Region publications to explain the long term plan to make for a better event, and that because of X we made a financial decision to cancel this event for the good of the club. This will keep all of the "other" members (whome most are not with this board) informed and happy.

thanks again

Raymond 'looking forward to 05" Blethen

Terry Hanushek
02-10-2004, 12:52 AM
Thanks for your understanding and support for our problems at Pocono.

Ed's original posting was looking to the long term. It was not a 'do or die' for the June Regional. Last fall when we saw the conflicts with other Club Racing events, we attempted to develop a solution using other SCCA activities like Solo 1 and Solo 2. Unfortunately, those plans did not come together.

We believe that most of the problem with this year's event was created by the date conflicts and have already started to work toward a more suitable date in 2005. It is expected that the loss of this year's event will be a one-time occurence.

We appreciate your suggestions and will try to utilize as many as possible in the June 2005 Regional.

Terry

jimmy p
02-11-2004, 02:43 AM
Hello All,
I have ben reading this thread with interest mainly because like Mike, I am a local to Pocono (30 minute tow) so I am always interested in what goes on there.

FWIW, up front, I do not club race (at least not yet) I am a Solo 1 / TT competitor.

What about combined "small track" events at Pocono?

Has this ever been considered?

Pocono has three tracks in it,,, which can all run at the same time.

What would you all think of doing a combined event using the following format (this is totally hypothetical off the top of my head):
Saturday:
North Course: Race groups ex. IT / AS / Prod
South Course: race Groups ex. SS / T1 / T2 / GT
East Course: Solo1 - Time Trial

SUNDAY:
Race groups swap tracks
Solo 1 stays on east course - runs different direction (everyone says East is too narrow for Wheel to Wheel racing)

This gets more racer on the tracks, increases track time, gets full utilisation of the facility.

When I started getting into solo 1 there was something like this at Pocono. That was the year before I built my car,,, I then built my car and the event went away (supposedly the racers hated something about it). Now we have no Solo 1s at Pocono.

I probably drive Pocono as much as anyone,,, maybe more,,, about 12 - 14 days or more every year. Either instructing, competing in TTs, or doing lapping days.
I like the individual tracks there.
Like Pocono's big track,,, all three are very different and fun in their own way.

Would no racers come if they raced on the smaller tracks?

Is Pocono's only appeal the long course configuration (which I personally think is kind of a bore)???

Heck the North course is the same length as Lime Rock.

The South course is the only place in the Northeast you can get a taste of the banking. The South course can even be run both directions (which is alot of fun).

I know alot of guys cross over from SCCA to EMRA and EMRA "only" runs the individual courses because thats what they can afford,,, and they do very well.
Every EMRA event I have ever attended there was very well sold.

Not drawing comparisons here, but I think maybe an SCCA re-think of the big picture Pocono strategy might be in order.
Maybe if attendance is down drop down to one of the smaller tracks or run a combined event using all three tracks .

I dunno, I am just brainstorming,,, quite self serving really,,,, mostly because I'd love to see a Solo1 back at Pocono, which has it best likelyhood if it was tied to a Club Race,,, and that does not seem likely at all given the trouble they are having putting on races there.

My last thing,,, Like my buddy Mike has said,,, give the Pocono guys a break,,, they are good guys.
A little gruff until you break the ice,,, but good guys.
Just keep in mind they see ALOT of knucklehead "hotshoes" there every summer. That track works 7 days a week from April until Oct. Usually all 3 courses going all the time.
Once you get to know them a little they are great guys and will really help you out if you need it..

Sorry for the long post.
Thanks for reading this far.
Cheers
Jim Pettinato
Scranton, PA
#98 BMW M3 - ITE

RSTPerformance
02-11-2004, 10:16 AM
I think the normal NARRC race should continue as it has in years past, running 2 configurations of the long course.

I think the second weekend would be awesome if:

1: It had NARRC points

2: It was run as suggested having half the field run 1 course 1 day and the other course the other day, and visa versa. Think of the track time!!! and races that were more than 8 laps... wow that would be awesome!!! Not to mention it would basically add 2 more tracks (same location) to the NARRC schedule. 4 very different configurations at 1 location...

3: Almost as important to me is that the events at Pocono need to become consistent. You need to determine the "best" configurations whether it is 1 or 4 and run the event(s) with the same configuration each year so that we as competitors can get better and have our own individual goals. As it is now the configurations change form year to year, and we have no idea if we are getting better or not. I am not opposed to having different configurations at each event in a year, just opposed to having different configurations from year to year.

4: Need to maintain track records... I still have not seen terry or anyone else say whether or not this has been overlooked. Does anyone know what the records are???

5: Need to have more than 1 ambulance at the track... (Probably need at least 3 if you run 2 racetracks at the same time). Last year someone had a heart attack at the track (thankfully they were all right) and the entire event had to shut down for several hours because we (SCCA) were not prepared for any type of medical problems.

6: Don't forget about those trophies


Raymond "I think we are getting somewhere!!!" Blethen


[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited February 11, 2004).]

RSTPerformance
02-11-2004, 10:21 AM
Jim Pettinato-

We need more people like you... Great thinking outside the box!!!

I don't have anything to do with Tri Region but I would suggest you contact them further as this issue effects you a lot.

Raymond

sccaflagger74
02-11-2004, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by jimmy p:


My last thing,,, Like my buddy Mike has said,,, give the Pocono guys a break,,, they are good guys.
A little gruff until you break the ice,,, but good guys.
Just keep in mind they see ALOT of knucklehead "hotshoes" there every summer. That track works 7 days a week from April until Oct. Usually all 3 courses going all the time.
Once you get to know them a little they are great guys and will really help you out if you need it..



I guess I was the guy who did major bashing of the Pocono guys. Let me clarify. The 2 guys who work over near NASCAR 1 are great. The rest get there cue from the older guy who works in NASCAR 3.

Quick outline of why I don't trust them and won't work there:

At the Nat'l about 4 years ago we had a FV go well off at turn one (clockwise) he was very far off track so we kept him there. That annoyed the older Pocono guy as he colorfully told me at the end of the session. He then proceed to hard tie the FV at the top of the roll bar. While I was leaning into the car (between the wheels) to try to buckle the driver's lapbelt the Pocono truck took off with the FV in tow. That could have been distasterous but luckily I jumped out of the way and the tow driver stopped. Then the tow driver jumped out and cursed me and the FV driver out for being morons who don't what there doing. BTW, he knows more than we'll ever know because he works NASCAR. What a stock car has in common with a FV besides having 4 wheels I don't know.

Nat'l 2 years ago, I'm at the same station but this time we are running counter clockwise so it's station 10 just before the front straight. The station there is in an impact zone. On the first lap of the FC race we have car impact the barrier protecting our station. We bail, then check on the driver and get him out of the car. He's fine and we decide to keep the car there. After we get him over the barrier the Pocono trucks (2 or 3) and a wrecker drive counter race to our station. We did not ask for them. The next minute or so is complete chaos as Pocono workers are now running around trackside (remember that a full field of FCs and related cars is coming around at speed on lap 2). As the field approaches the Pocono guys decide that the situation is unsafe (because they showed up on their own is the only reason it was unsafe) and take the red flag from our station. As captain I can't allow a red flag to be shown to a field still under green everywhere else or major carnage may occur so I chase the guy down. As I'm doing that another Pocono goon grabs me by the throat and pushes me down to ground. Remeber, all this is occurring while cars are at speed on track and within a span of less than 1 minute. We are able to communicate to control that we need a red and the race is shut down. To top the terrible weekend off the T1 Corvette driver was killed at Devils Elbow the next day nearly taking the workers with him. I was one of those who filled in for those to guys at Devils Elbow in the afternoon. It was not fun in the least.

I do this for fun and don't need to get into fistfights on station. I don't like having to struggle to cover horrendous barriers with a few loose tires to try to provide some protection. I don't like wondering why there are no styrofoam blocks at the track protecting barriers when the region owns a bunch of them. Nor will I risk getting myself, my drivers on track, or my fellow workers injured or killed. I haven't been back to Pocono and won't be back. There are other reasons I won't be back but that's enough venting for now

Regards,

Bob Lindenmuth
Philly Region
Nat'l F&C

22timber
02-11-2004, 06:36 PM
Hey Bob,
Those are certainly good reasons not to go back. What a nightmare.

Mark Lapos

Scott Koschwitz
12-13-2004, 11:45 AM
I'm an SSM racer, but I searched the IT site looking for insight about racing at Pocono. I found this thread.

I see that the Pocono double regional is on the schedule for May 14 and 15, 2005 as a NAARC date. I am thinking of running this as an alternative to the May 7 Lime Rock date.

I intend to run regionals at Lime Rock in June, August, and possibly October, so I think running Pocono would be a nice change of pace.

I have a few questions:

1) Is anybody from the Northeast planning to go?
2) Does anyone have further information about course configuration?
3) In this thread, some suggested running an enduro. Has anyone heard whether an enduro is scheduled?
4) Assuming the weekend is a double sprint race, any ideas on entry fees?
5) Is it possible to camp at the track?
6) Finally, what's the weather like in early May?

Thanks for any information you can provide.

Bill Umstead
12-13-2004, 10:05 PM
Scott,

I can't really address whether any of your fellow SM or SSM drivers will attend. I either run ITS or Historic. But I will try to respond to your other questions.

The course configuration run last year was clockwise, using Nascar 1 & 2, the tunnel turn and then into the infield. (This description is opposite from the way it actually ran). NNJR installed a chicane right before Nascar 2 (?) where the other infield course turned in. This was to keep speed down on the really fast cars. Some liked it, some did not. NNJR ran this configuration both days. Previous years, one day used this configuration, the other day used both road courses and the front and back straights. I don't know what will be done this year.

I don't think an Enduro will be offered. Again, have no first hand information. Someone else on the forum may.

Yes, you can camp at the track. I never have but there are showers available for the drivers.

Fees last year were $300 for both days. My records don't show what a single day cost was. Sorry.

Weather in May at Pocono: Anything and everything is possible. I've seen it snow and sleet, rain, fog, windy, sunny and hot. You need to really come prepared for anything. It can be cold. Last year was pretty nice, with mild temps. The year before was cold and wet one day, dry and sunny the next.

If you haven't driven Pocono before it's worth the entry fee. It can be boring on the banking, but its still fun to let the car run out in top gear.

Hopefully, someone else can add to your questions.

Bill Umstead

Scott Koschwitz
12-14-2004, 09:33 AM
Thanks for the response, Bill.

I wasn't interested so much in other Miatas coming to Pocono, as in other racers, especially from New England. Earlier in this thread, there were discussions of low turnout, so I was curious whether the establishment of the Pocono weekend as a NAARC date interested others in attending. Also, it would be good for me confer with some other racers I know about Pocono's quirks, since I have never driven there.

I'll take a look at the maps of the Pocono courses to get a sense of the configuration run last year. The courses are a little confusing.

I can understand how the straights and banking can be a little boring, but it would be fun to drive them, at least once, to get a sense of my car's top end and the drafting effect.

The $300 entry fee is reasonable and about what I expected. Considering that the entry fee for a single regional at Lime Rock will cost between $200 and $300, Pocono is a bargain. Being able to camp is a definite plus.

Thanks again.

Andy Bettencourt
12-14-2004, 10:14 AM
The Pocono Double has been a NARRC race for at least the last few years. Low turnout is simply due to the proximity of the event to NER members (IMHO). From all accounts, its a well run event now that the track configuration is pretty static.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

jcmotorsports
12-14-2004, 01:39 PM
what about an extended enduro at pocono. maybe a 12 or 24 hour enduro. i think it would be easier to see at night with the cocrete lining the track, plus you can fit alot of cars. what do you think? i will help out as much as i can as it is also my home track.
john costello

Racer Chris
12-14-2004, 11:15 PM
Scott, you can get a quick idea of the Pocono layout from a short in-car video I have on-line here: Pocono National (http://www.tangerineracing.com/images/PoconoNational%2004.wmv)
The course in the video skips the chicane, which is just before Nascar 1 (banked turn). The chicane was flooded that day.

------------------
Chris Foley
www.tangerineracing.com (http://www.tangerineracing.com)



[This message has been edited by Racer Chris (edited December 14, 2004).]

Scott Koschwitz
12-15-2004, 09:49 AM
Thanks, Chris.

I was thinking in-car video would help a lot in understanding the course layout, but Pocono video has been hard to find.

I am very seriously considering racing that weekend. Just have to get permission slips from my wife and my racing budget.

Thanks again.

Tom Blaney
12-15-2004, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by Bill Umstead:
Scott,

If you haven't driven Pocono before it's worth the entry fee. It can be boring on the banking, but its still fun to let the car run out in top gear.

Hopefully, someone else can add to your questions.

Bill Umstead

Wow Bill, I must be doing something wrong, there are a lot of times that I am far from being bored (some verge on scared ...tless) driving on the banks. I think that is one of the best parts, that and the manly man breaking section at the end of devils's elbow going into the infield (when we ran the coarse nascar style 1 & 2) http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif
Tom Blaney

rbt510
12-15-2004, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Scott Koschwitz:
.......I have a few questions:

1) Is anybody from the Northeast planning to go?
2) Does anyone have further information about course configuration?
3) In this thread, some suggested running an enduro. Has anyone heard whether an enduro is scheduled?
4) Assuming the weekend is a double sprint race, any ideas on entry fees?
5) Is it possible to camp at the track?
6) Finally, what's the weather like in early May?

Thanks for any information you can provide.[/B]

Scot,

I love the track. Even when there are only two cars in my class and Tom B. and Anthony S. ITA cars blow by me like I'm standing still. The straights are long, but are still fun in even my ITC car. Turn one can be a challenge, especially after drafting and trying to pass someone. The infield sections are fast enough and great fun in traffic. The double event makes it worth it as well. Sharing a gargage can also be done to keep the costs down. From Connecticut, I think the trip is even easier than NHIS.

Bob T.
#25 ITC Datsun 510
NER

Scott Koschwitz
12-15-2004, 04:07 PM
I've watched Chris's video and Pocono does look like a fun track to run.

The infield course looks a little narrow, but not too tight. It looks like there are a couple of second-gear corners [after watching the video again, maybe one?], and that the cars get up to fifth gear, which would be a nice change from the Lime Rock 3-4-3 shifts.

Considering its length, the course runs pretty quickly. Rather than being boring, the straights seem like quick blasts into the banking, and then into the fast, twisty infield course. Pretty cool.

Thanks for the information. I'll definitely try to make this one.

[This message has been edited by Scott Koschwitz (edited December 15, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Scott Koschwitz (edited December 15, 2004).]

Racer Chris
12-15-2004, 07:28 PM
Scott, if you want I can send you a DVD with two full length National in-car videos for $5. The other race includes the chicane. They are a bit boring from a racing standpoint since I didn't have someone to race for many of the laps but you will get a good feel for the track. My personal address is on the home page of my site if you're interested.

------------------
Chris Foley
www.tangerineracing.com (http://www.tangerineracing.com)

Scott Koschwitz
12-15-2004, 08:09 PM
Chris, I just may take you up on that offer if my plans to attend the Pocono races become more definite. I haven't raced at any other track than Lime Rock, so I could definitely use the study time.

Bill Umstead
12-15-2004, 10:43 PM
Tom Blaney:

I must post a response to your comment...

you must remember that I have a slow 914 and the banking is fun but not as thrilling as when I first started at Pocono. I agree that when the track ran counter-clockwise, there was a real pucker factor going into devils elbow. I remember my first year racing (I think it was my second race) the course was run CCW, and as I was trying to enter devils elbow, all I could see in my rear view mirrors were two very fast FP spitfires going hammer and tongs and I thought, there is no way in hell they are going to make the corner without collecting me. Needless to say, I took the escape road. They of course, did just fine...


Bill

Bill Umstead
12-15-2004, 10:44 PM
Tom Blaney:

I must post a response to your comment...

you must remember that I have a slow 914 and the banking is fun but not as thrilling as when I first started at Pocono. I agree that when the track ran counter-clockwise, there was a real pucker factor going into devils elbow. I remember my first year racing (I think it was my second race) the course was run CCW, and as I was trying to enter devils elbow, all I could see in my rear view mirrors were two very fast FP spitfires going hammer and tongs and I thought, there is no way in hell they are going to make the corner without collecting me. Needless to say, I took the escape road. They of course, did just fine...


Bill

Bill Umstead
12-15-2004, 10:46 PM
sorry about the double post...

Racer Chris
12-16-2004, 10:30 AM
Bill,
You need to convert your teener to FP specs.
Then Pocono will be a little more exciting.
http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif
(BTW, you should wander over to 914club.com once in a while)

------------------
Chris Foley
www.tangerineracing.com (http://www.tangerineracing.com)