what does a new track need to be great [Archive] - Improved Touring Racing Forums

0100

11-18-2004, 10:53 AM

I hope we aren't dreaming.

Whatever you (we) do please don't build a go-cart track. Won't be worth the time and money. If we are going to build a track I hope it is one that is fun. Not a bunch of low speed turns.

Track layout(#2 reason I don't like NHIS)
Elavation changes
Runoff (#1 reason I don't like NHIS)

I'm not dreaming so...

I could careless about:

Showers
Power
Buildings

As it is now I don't use any of those amenities. Two days without a shower is nothing. I guess I'm just use to the Army life. Yes I shower everyday http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif now that I'm not in the Army anymore.

Bring a nice cheap camp shower. $6.99 http://www.campingworld.com/browse/skus/in...18&skunum=23464 (http://www.campingworld.com/browse/skus/index.cfm?deptID=3&subOf=97,18&skunum=23464)
Bring a converter or generator.
You can always stay at a motel.

Seriously I'm not trying to be an ass, but I hope people can over look Track ClubMed for a well laid out close road track.

Where is the site I'll head up now and start clearing. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by 0100 (edited November 18, 2004).]

Scott Koschwitz

11-18-2004, 10:55 AM

What are all these suggestions for creature comforts? You guys gettin' old? ;-)

My overarching comment agrees with what Dave Youngren said: build a track that follows the natural terrain (so long as it's not as flat as a billiard table). Tracks that follow the natural terrain seem to be the best tracks.

My wish list:

1) At least 2.5 miles
2) 40' wide
3) Designed with plenty of passing areas
4) Long front straight
5) At least one 2nd gear corner
6) Capable of being run in either a different configuration (like WGI Long and Short Courses) or both clockwise and counterclockwise
7) Lots of runoff room

joeg

11-18-2004, 11:36 AM

Or any race track that doesn't look, act, smell or emulate Nelson Ledges...

Tom Blaney[/B][/QUOTE]

Well Tom, I can see you haven't been to Nelson in a while...Fastest track around with great improvements in the last three years.

Don't knock it unless you give it a try again.

7racing

11-18-2004, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by Scott Koschwitz:

My wish list:

1) At least 2.5 miles
2) 40' wide
3) Designed with plenty of passing areas
4) Long front straight
5) At least one 2nd gear corner
6) Capable of being run in either a different configuration (like WGI Long and Short Courses) or both clockwise and counterclockwise
7) Lots of runoff room

I think I'm going to write this same list to Santa this year. It's pretty much what I was looking for. At least one long straight for the HP cars, and some good turns for the handling cars. Make it a good track for both and they will come.

Can I just add that the 2nd gear turn not be at the end of the fastest part of the track?

Jeremy

RSTPerformance

11-18-2004, 12:31 PM

Make the second gear turn the start of the fastest part of the track, and make the end of the fastest part a 3rd gear turn. inbetween should be a mixture of 4th and 3rd gear turns wiht elevation changes and every track needs to have a "photo" turn or signature turn. NHIS doesn't have much of one, but Road Atlanta's esses or Laguna Secca's "corkscrew" Actually I guess if NHIS had one it would probably be the use of Bryar's old turn 6 (still turn 6 at NHIS).

Raymond

Greg Amy

11-18-2004, 12:37 PM

What does a track need to be considered "great"? One need look no further than Virginia International Raceway or Barber Motorsports Park. Those are truly first-class facilities. However, if we're talking about a local club track, I think we can certainly settle for a lot less.

I'm also not one to wax poetic about creature comforts. I'm OK with Porta-Potties for two days, and I rarely use the track showers.

In a club facility I'm looking for - first and foremost - a well-laid out track with a good surface and plenty of runoff. Without that, nothing else matters.

I also don't give two shakes about spectator accomodations, because we rarely get enough spectators to make it worthwhile. Plus, a club track will have to be built in the boonies, making it very unlikely that it will attract a crowd.

The paddock area must be clean, flat, and dry. Paved if at all possible. There must be sufficient and convenient off-paddock trailer parking space so folks will be encouraged to move their open-deck trailers out of the way.

Flat concrete setup pads that are clearly marked as such so they won't be imstaken for the "I got here first" paddock spaces.

There should be a meeting club house and classrom, primarily for driver's meetings and class sessions for HPDE events. The way to pay for this track is via club racing (and not just SCCA), a driving school, open-track testing sessions, and various HPDE groups. Do it right and the facility will be rented every usable day of the year.

A 2- or 4-car tech barn so that Honda engine disassemblies can happen in good conditions and relative privacy.

Trees/shade interspersed throughout the paddock area. Keep this in mind before we start dozing all the vegetation.

Free.

JohnRW

11-18-2004, 12:38 PM

Somebody asked Mario Andretti what made a race track great. Don't know where I read it, but somebody here must have seen it, too. He ticked off a list, and it didn't include espresso machines in the showers and drive-thru registration windows...but it did include 'elevation-change' and 'no constant-radius corners'. Somebody can chime in with the rest of the list, if they can find it.

Complain all you want about Nelson Ledges...but for what ONE DAY of racing at Lime Rock will cost next season, you can rent Nelson for almost THREE WEEKENDS. Probably the most "SCCA-friendly" track management (Scott & Kerry) in the USA (although maybe Bill Scott comes in 2nd...?)The Nelson-rats will all be happily racing, while everyone east of the Hudson will be whining about a lack of dates at that crappy little go-kart track in Connecticut.

Oh my...did I just say that ?

tdw6974

11-18-2004, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by JohnRW:
Somebody asked Mario Andretti what made a race track great. Don't know where I read it, but somebody here must have seen it, too. He ticked off a list, and it didn't include espresso machines in the showers and drive-thru registration windows...but it did include 'elevation-change' and 'no constant-radius corners'. Somebody can chime in with the rest of the list, if they can find it.

Complain all you want about Nelson Ledges...but for what ONE DAY of racing at Lime Rock will cost next season, you can rent Nelson for almost THREE WEEKENDS. Probably the most "SCCA-friendly" track management (Scott & Kerry) in the USA (although maybe Bill Scott comes in 2nd...?)The Nelson-rats will all be happily racing, while everyone east of the Hudson will be whining about a lack of dates at that crappy little go-kart track in Connecticut.

Oh my...did I just say that ?
JOHN control yourself http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

Greg Amy

11-18-2004, 01:35 PM

Another point came to mind:

- can made into multiple interesting configurations so that the layout can be altered for different weekends *and* so two different groups can be using the track at the same time.

jcmotorsports

11-18-2004, 03:14 PM

a great track. hmmmm! i'd have to say elevation changes with blind apexes, stellar facilities(tower, rest rooms, paved paddock, etc.). i guess what i am looking for is barber motorsports park!
john costello
its rx7 #87

benspeed

11-18-2004, 05:46 PM

OK - sounds like it's time I call some of my investment buddies and rustle up some $$.

The track is what I care about most:

-2.5 miles
-safe runoffs-no barriers
-wide passing areas
-no constant radius turns
-good curbing
-elevation changes
-second gear turn leading to straight
-two good long straightaways
-second gear at end of straight
-long high speed sweeper at end of straight
-excellent braking markers
-no armaco-only sandtraps and safer barriers
-Nice big grid

The paddock is what I care about second:
-paved-no dirt or grass
-plenty of setup pads that are marked as "paddock here and suffer the wrath of all"
-Power - ok not that important

Ammenities
-Clean bathrooms and showers
-Tech barn
-Classroom
-seating
-food

Most important - owned by our club and managed by reasonable people!

Just put in the track and a massive paddock - I'll poop in the woods!

lateapex911

11-18-2004, 10:34 PM

Ben...You DO need to contact them. Dicks a creative guy...I am sure we can find a way to have them lapping their Ferraris with us as instructors when ever they please!

Money will be a BIG issue.

It WILL cost each member of the region something..and it WILL be a risk.

Still nothing great is ever acheived without some risk....

That said....

I am not a fan of pooping in the woods...we need some basic facilities ....if only for our wives and girlfirends.

(What KILLS me about LRP is the showers...they can't find $300 bucks to make those things perfectly acceptable?? C'mon...!)

The thing I LOVE about Lime Rock is the natural circuit nature of the place. It has character. And it it the best place to watch a race...but they could do even better with a little earthmoving...

Yes, a long straight, but serious braking is important at the end...maybe downhill and off camber..like T1 at the Glen...and a DIFFICULT entry onto it will ensure that talent wins races, not just big torque and high HP.

So, the bsics: amplitheater layout, natural characteristics, and a challenging layout of 2 miles is a good start. Financially, splitting into two circuits it is smart for rental flexibility, if the region sees that in the business plan. Along with the required control and timing tower, and basic facilities.

Then...after a year or two, paddock improvements, and if it's making money, other items like a lodge (how cool!) could be added.

As a club, we have members from all walks of life. Each one needs to pitch in his or her talents where they might apply. How great would it be if we had a paving contractor as a member? http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

oh yea...one more thing...NO gravel traps 1 foot from the edge of the track! Those things do more harm than good in a lot of cases and screw the schedule royally.

It should be : Track, grass, more grass, or, in areas where space is not available, track, grass, then pavement, and finally bundled and strapped tires. Pavement does a pretty good job of slowing spinning cars, without them skipping over the top, then catching and rolling into the wall as so often happens with gravel.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited November 18, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited November 18, 2004).]

Vantage #51

11-19-2004, 12:47 AM

Just for the record,about 98% of the items on the wish lists are covered by VIR,if you have never been,it is worth the tow ,no matter how far away you might live.
We are 22 hours, and would go back next weekend if they were racing!
Their motto"Fast,Fun and world class" is no exaggeration.
First facility that we felt like "customers" .

JLawton

11-19-2004, 08:29 AM

Track layout and run off are 1# & #2 in my book. I'll even live with a dirt paddock and porta potties. I think a large class room is also important.

I like the idea of starting with the bare essentials and adding as the track becomes profitable (??) (keeping initial costs low) There are enough clubs in the area that would love to add dates and run at a new facility. A little competition for Lime Rock would help bring those costs down as well............

------------------
Jeff L
#74 ITB GTi

16v

11-21-2004, 09:08 PM

Photo holes!! (I'm probably the only person who cares about this)

lateapex911

11-21-2004, 09:13 PM

Hardly! if YOU want it, we ALL want it!

PS, shoot me an email off line...thanks...

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

emwavey

11-29-2004, 03:20 PM

How about this:
http://www.njmotorsportspark.com/html/arch...al_drawing.html (http://www.njmotorsportspark.com/html/architectural_drawing.html)

-dave
8)

tdw6974

11-29-2004, 03:29 PM

Equal Time http://www.rauschcreekracing.com/rcmp/index.php

Bill Miller

11-29-2004, 06:40 PM

What's the status of the road course at Rausch Creek? I thought it was pretty much dead in the water. Also, the guy that ran the VIR project is running the Thunderbolt project in NJ. Hope they can pull it off!!!

As far as what makes a track great:

Natural elevation changes
Lots of safe runoff room
Good, adequate paddock (one that could accomodate 350 - 400 cars).
2.5 - 3 miles (or more)
Aspects that exploit hp/speed as well as braking/handling

My idea of a great track, a modern-day Bridgehampton!

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

JeffYoung

11-29-2004, 06:55 PM

Let me add one other characteristic: raciness. And no, I don't mean it has hot NASA chicks flashing skin.

I am blessed to live 1 hour and 30 minutes from VIR and run there (racing and club days in my street car) probably 8-10 times a year. I LOVE the track, and the setting. I can't imagine a better overall track experience EXCEPT....

The one dark secret (in my view) is that VIR, and Barber which is its equal in terms of facilities and close to it in my opinion in terms of the track itself, isn't very racy. Very few places to pass....end of the front straight....MAYBE going into NASCAR....from there on it, it's tough until you get to Oak Tree and the back striaght, and there's no passing in Roller Coaster for equal/nearly equal cars.

So, unless you have huge nads or HP, very few passing zones for such a long (3.27 miles) track.

A lap at VIR is intense, but sometimes it can turn into a big long parade.

Compare and contract to that road course/autocross course bastard Carolina Motor Sports Park. Nearly every corner is a passing zone. When I run there, I feel like I'm in a war every lap. The track has a high speed part, and a slow part, and each type of car is a little better than others in different places.

Roebling is kind of the same way. A big momentum track that has, for its size, at a decent amount of places to RACE.

So, add that to the list. Take that, Motorsports Country Clubs!

All that said, don't ever miss an opportunity to come to VIR. Facilities. Workers. Track. Paddock. FOOD. All as good as it gets.

irondragon

11-29-2004, 07:25 PM

I would like to have the NTC reconsider acquiring land and building a track in the area of Sanford, Maine. In the past I was told that this area was too far away to attract racers, and therefore not to be considered. I say that this is not true as the area is easily accessible from I95 and not more than 30 minutes further than NHIS for those coming from the West. If LRP goes to 20K/day, that 30 minutes might be cheap driving.
NTC please look at this area - I believe a track could go there.
Best Regards -Bill Miskoe NER ITS #26

irondragon

11-29-2004, 07:25 PM

gsbaker

11-29-2004, 07:28 PM

Well put. Personally, I believe there are driving tracks and there are racing tracks.

Driving tracks are gads of fun for a DE--very technical swoopy things happening, and lots of chances to explore different lines absent another car.

Racing tracks are invariably characterized by long straights leading into corners which lead to another long straight--a few au rouge wrinkles excepted.

If drivers are not concentrating on launch and braking, it's just a parade.

G

0100

11-29-2004, 07:58 PM

Good point, I want a track with lots of good passing areas.

I don't feel 30min farther north is a problem at all. A track in ME would be closer than LRP for me.

The guys coming from out west, say NY, I don't think would mind. If they make the trip to NHIS I'm sure they would make the trip to a real road course in ME.

I'm going to the glen next year.

Lets say the glen was NHIS and 30min extra drive was the glen. I would drive the extra 30 min for the better track.

This is all just my opinion.

But as they say location, location, location. A track in western mass(in our dreams), southern NH, or CT would be far better. BUT is it going to be possable.

Is there any other spots in southern ME? I would think ME would have the cheapest land and lots of different areas to look at. If the site is close to 95 that saves alot of travel time and would be a big + on attracting people. The MASS pike is an easy drive. Say LRP1 is where it is now, and LRP2 is 30 min father away, but right of the MASS pike. Both tracks being identical I would probably go to LRP2. HWY miles on tow vehicle. Probably use the same amount of gas. Probably get there the same time can travel faster on HWY vs back roads. Easier drive.

What about southern VT?

[This message has been edited by 0100 (edited November 29, 2004).]

lateapex911

11-29-2004, 10:00 PM

Hey, if Maine is as easy to "permit" a track as they are registering cars, then we should jump on it before they come to their senses!

Note the plates on my trailer...CT gave me hours of BS about not having a title for a 15 yr old trailer, Maine said "Send a check, we send a registration plate!" Deal!

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

irondragon

11-29-2004, 10:11 PM

More from the Dragon:
I drive through the Sanford/Alfred area quite often. There is car racing going on there. Mostly small oval track stuff. It doesn't look to me as though this is a place where people are sniffy and reject the idea of having fun with cars.
I also believe that it is an area where some input of $$ will be welcome. Don't forget that this region went all out to have a casino built there.
But the statewide referendum on the idea failed.
Not to say that a well thought out club race track would ever bring in the $$ that a casino could, but rather to suggest that this is an area where car racing could do well.
Anyone want to take a drive up and look around with me?
Best Regards - Bill Miskoe

tdw6974

11-29-2004, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
What's the status of the road course at Rausch Creek? I thought it was pretty much dead in the water. Also, the guy that ran the VIR project is running the Thunderbolt project in NJ. Hope they can pull it off!!!

Bill, Rausch creek is still viable as all permits,approvals, and plans have been done. Only need $$$$ to complete. I believe NJ is just starting the paper fight. T Weaver

------------------
Tom Weaver: Logistics & Technical Support Manager IE truck driver for 1980 RX-7 ITA #63
"Hemi Haulin' Rotary"

Bill Miller

12-01-2004, 07:55 AM

Tom,

I looked at the RC website, and saw the last article on the road course was over a year old. I know the dirt bike/quad racing is doing well. I thought they were going to use some of those funds for the road race track?

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

datadude

12-01-2004, 12:31 PM

MidOhio is over $30,000 for Sat and Sunday and no test days, which doesn't include everything. You have to be off the track by 5PM, not a minute later and off the property period on Sunday by 6pm. You have to go through their 'school'. Listing all your track wants is kinda like wanting tv, definitely not cheap or even reasonable or free, like everything on a list that makes a track "great". I'll take the few clean showers at Nelson compared to the slime at MidOhio showers or the cold water at LimeRock along with the paid attendant.

tdw6974

12-02-2004, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Tom,

I looked at the RC website, and saw the last article on the road course was over a year old. I know the dirt bike/quad racing is doing well. I thought they were going to use some of those funds for the road race track?

Bill, email me at [email protected] when you get chance. thanks T W

------------------
Tom Weaver: Logistics & Technical Support Manager IE truck driver for 1980 RX-7 ITA #63
"Hemi Haulin' Rotary"

Fred Fox

12-03-2004, 10:29 PM

A great track has a corner that can almost be taken without lifting!

Greg Amy

12-03-2004, 10:32 PM

...and will put you on your lid if you do. (a la Turn One, Hallett Motor Speedway. Don't ask.)

mtgmanracing

12-08-2004, 11:44 PM

Since I dont race yet, Ill talk about a few simple things that would make watching fun...even if it is just for families.

1) a nice terraced hill that way clownboys with their mobile homes in a bag dont get into your view.

2) How about some bbq pits and picnic area? that would be great after a good race!

3) A good scoreboard minimum PA second (though not as important if not a spectator track)

as for the track itself:

wide, long straights, NO CHICANES, a couple good elevation changes, a blind turn or two, a good full out turn (bank it a bit if necessary), a long pit lane and even paddock, a few garages for tech (or barns...steel buildings are cheap right?), a classroom, a modest facility (couple showers, clean bathrooms). Good access (since itll probably be in the boonies).

aeronca65t

12-09-2004, 02:03 PM

Considering the discussion above, this may be of interest to many of you (and please pass it on):
______________________________
Copied from www.autox4u.com: (http://www.autox4u.com:)
______________________________
Thunderbolt public hearing 12/13/04

There will be a final public hearing on December 13th in Millville City Hall on the 4th Floor at 6 PM in front of the Planning Board. The NJ Audubon Society plans to Cross Examine the professionals who spoke on behallf of Project Thunderbolt. We need at least as many green flag members and supporters to attend that hearing, as we expect the Planning Board to be in a position to vote on the project. Jane Galetto has informed the press that she will speak out that evening on the project.

Please rally your friends and family to attend one of the single most important evenings in the history of Millville and Cumberland County.

For more information regarding Thunderbolt Raceway visit: http://www.njmotorsportspark.com