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p99ro
08-07-2004, 09:52 PM
I`m a wondering. Help out a guy who had to work and couldnt go out to play.
Scott CRX ITA 09 NER

VTECAcuraGSR
08-07-2004, 10:16 PM
Here is what I recall...

ITS - Henderson by a mile!
ITA - Serra
ITB - Carlson
ITC - ?

Did I remember correctly?

p99ro
08-07-2004, 10:18 PM
Thanks.

Greg Amy
08-07-2004, 10:31 PM
Details! Details, please!

ITSRX7
08-07-2004, 10:39 PM
Quick ITS update:

Leverone on pole, then 5 BMW's. Autotechnic guys were fast and Ed Tisdale qualified great.

Nick lead the first lap and spun by himself in Big Bend under awesome pressure from Hendo. They were less that 6 inches apart down the front straight.

Nick battled back and set a new track record (1:00.8) in the process. Got caught up in some more carnage then got taken out at the entrance of West Bend.

Henderson and Driscoll drove clean, avoided the 'issues' and went 1-2 going away.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)



[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited August 08, 2004).]

Steve Ostrovitz
08-07-2004, 11:57 PM
One-flat in the Mazda? I can't wrap my brain around that. That's what I call gettin' down with the Program!

Great job Nick.

Steve O.

Tom Blaney
08-08-2004, 09:02 AM
If anybody has ITA results I'd like to see them, couldn't make the event, so I am pretty curious.

Jake
08-08-2004, 09:07 AM
With two protests in ITA I'm not sure when the final results will be. But I will tell you this, there looks to be a new LRP ITA track record - and Anthony didn't set it!

Here's a couple of short vids from my perspective in ITA:

http://www.racerjake.com/Video_files/LRPRX7.wmv
http://www.racerjake.com/Video_files/smoke.wmv

VTECAcuraGSR
08-08-2004, 09:51 AM
ITA was much closer than I thought it was going to be...

Serra to be expected starting walking away from yhe field early on and at half way was probably leading by a good 20 seconds to 2nd and third I don't recall being closer than 30 seconds.

By the end of the race however an ITA CRX with Hawthorne behind the wheel closed up on Serra by the end of the race within say 2 seconds at the finish. Hew was just flying! I am not sure if Serra was just cruising or if it was his tires going away.

ITSRX7
08-08-2004, 09:55 AM
I do recall Serra's qual time of 1:02.3 and nobody else in the 1:02's.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

Tom Blaney
08-08-2004, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Jake:
With two protests in ITA I'm not sure when the final results will be. But I will tell you this, there looks to be a new LRP ITA track record - and Anthony didn't set it!

Here's a couple of short vids from my perspective in ITA:

http://www.racerjake.com/Video_files/LRPRX7.wmv
http://www.racerjake.com/Video_files/smoke.wmv

Oh stop you have got to be kidding... Shaine sleeps all year long and comes out and pounds out 102's. I know how hard it is to crack into the 102's with my legal crx, and I have been at this for a long time. Unfortunatly this is bringing ITA into a very dangerous position.

lewllewellyn
08-08-2004, 10:49 AM
The Honda Civic ITA that finished in 2nd place set a new lap record, I am pretty sure. The leaders tires were probably going away at the finish,

It will be a while before the results are final. One of the 2 protests in ITA could not be completed as one of the parties had left the track. However, it will be completed via telephone, e-mail or other correspondence.

There was some really good racing in all the IT classes. The ITB race was really close and clean! Side by side for most of the race with little contact! Thanks to ALL in that Group!

Considering that 272 cars started 10 Race Groups, the Event went Pretty Well from an Operation standpoint. The metal-to-metal was reduced, but still more that we would like to see. However, if we ALL continue to work together, it will be better!

Thanks to all those who attended!!

Lew Llewellyn
Chief Steward

ITSRX7
08-08-2004, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by Tom Blaney:
Unfortunatly this is bringing ITA into a very dangerous position.

What position would that be?

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

Tom Blaney
08-08-2004, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by ITSRX7:
What position would that be?

AB



Where everybody who is fast is perceived as cheating and it goes from being fun to being a bitch fest....

R RACER
08-08-2004, 11:59 AM
After a long wait for the last race, I was very unhappy yesterday, first I missed all the normal regular drivers, including Tom, there is some real poor driving manners out there, lots of chopping, passing flags? what is that?, metal to metal resulting in damaged cars, Grant looked very upset yesterday, I had a lapped car totally chop me off in west bend on the last lap, ( you know who you are and you are very lucky that you didn't end up putting me in the hospital,with Shane in tow we probably would have ended losing both of our cars. I was in cruise control and my tires were not going away, I just drove my race. Shane picked up some speed from friday's qualifing of a 1:03.7 to a 1:02 flat on Saturday, good job for you, I guess your car has quite a bit of reserve or you were real motivated to catch me. I hope everyone comes to the NARRC runoff's. It should be real intersting.

------------------
Anthony Serra ITA 99

Rabbit05
08-08-2004, 12:51 PM
ITC honors went to Tim Klavana...I had a real fun time picking my way through the field trying to chase him down. I was pushing hard all race and had the Rabbit "hopping" all over..I got into some dirt on the outside of turn 2 after getting the lead, and that ended my race. I just tried to put in some good times at the end as Tim had a huge lead and the laps were running out. I managed to finsh second and third went to Fred...See ya in Oct. for the Runoffs.... http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

John VanDenburgh
ITC Rabbit 05

RSTPerformance
08-08-2004, 01:08 PM
What a great weekend for me!!! The Red Audi Finally went, I improved 2 seconds a lap since my last visit...

My Brother led the first 7 or 8 laps then Scott was able to sneak past and I followed in pursuit... We all ran 2 wide on every turn of the track for the first half of the race (Obviously Scott was having a bit of difficulty as I had to keep helping out the bro http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif ). The SM guys were great, almost the same speeds. We even were mixing it up with the leaders of the class a bit. Definitely a good race J Stephen got punted off going onto no-name at about lap 15. That left Scott and me upfront and alone. A few lap cars held their line that slowed me up a bit and Scott was able to build up a good lead in the last 5 laps.

I watched the video above by racerjake... I think that is you in the MR2. I would take that video of you punting the blue RX-7 off the net as it shows everyone your guilty. There was plenty of room for you at the bottom of the track (if you followed in line with the car that got past you on the inside). Instead you held the blue RX7 out to dry with no track room left on the outside??? Why???

In IT racing it is obvious that there will be some contact, minimal is best. We are actually racing and sometimes a little rubbing will happen. I feel the mirrors should be touching at all times, but nothing else!!! The issue for me is not rubbing but when someone doesn't leave you track room and actually puts someone at risk of injury to themselves or someone else. A bump where everyone stays on the pavement and going the same direction is a pain in the but when you get home and have to fix it, but a bump off the track is totally unacceptable.

Use your head and stay safe, I know every track in the northeast will fit 2 cars wide on every turn at speed.

Raymond "I finally beat my bro!!!" Blethen


Thanks again to all the workers for a good weekend!!! Very well run event http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

------------------
http://rstperformance.bizland.com/rstsignature.jpg
RST Performance Racing
www.rstperformance.com (http://www.rstperformance.com)
1st and 2nd 2003 ITB NARRC Championship
1st and 6th 2003 ITB NERRC Championship
3rd 2003 ITB ARRC Sprint Race
4th 2003 ITB ARRC Endoro
1st 2003 AS NERRC and NARRC Championships

Jake
08-08-2004, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
I watched the video above by racerjake... I think that is you in the MR2. I would take that video of you punting the blue RX-7 off the net as it shows everyone your guilty. There was plenty of room for you at the bottom of the track (if you followed in line with the car that got past you on the inside). Instead you held the blue RX7 out to dry with no track room left on the outside??? Why???


Ray - first of all, your race was the best one of the day. Awesome driving! I had a blast watching you guys.

Second, what the video doesn't show is that Grant (the blue RX7) got hit from the rear from a third car which spun him into me. (that third car was is the one that is being protested - not me) Me and Grant were going around big bend together - and there was plenty of room for both of us on either side. I don't blame you for coming the wrong conclusion - it's my fault for putting the vid out there without the explaination. It's very hard to figure out what's going on from the video clip - but if you look closely, you can see that I held my line, but at one point the RX7 adjusts his line into my path. This is when he was hit from behind and began to spin.

I'm just glad that Grant didn't get hurt. We've gone door to door with each other many times and have always laughed about it afterwards. No he wasn't laughing this time, but it wasn't because of my MR2.

[This message has been edited by Jake (edited August 08, 2004).]

Jake
08-08-2004, 04:50 PM
BTW - I didn't take the videos down, but my host is a bit flakey. If the previous ones don't work anymore try these links:

http://home.comcast.net/~fishja/Video_files/LRPRX7.wmv
http://home.comcast.net/~fishja/Video_files/smoke.wmv

FWIW, Grant's a friend of mine and we were looking forward to a good race. If I could have done anything at all to avoid his car spinning into me, believe me I would have.

[This message has been edited by Jake (edited August 08, 2004).]

ITSRX7
08-08-2004, 05:09 PM
BTW: Nice to meet Jake and Dave Gran on Saturday.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

ITSRX7
08-08-2004, 05:51 PM
[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited August 08, 2004).]

RSTPerformance
08-08-2004, 06:09 PM
Jake-

Thanks for the clarification http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Explanation does a lot, your off my hook http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

Raymond "video doesn't always capture the truth" Blethen

Greg Amy
08-08-2004, 07:27 PM
Looks like I need to be buyin' me one of them thar HondAcuras...them's the only cars on the lead lap in ITA...

ITSRX7
08-08-2004, 08:15 PM
Serra's is for sale in the classifieds section...bet its cheap! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/tongue.gif

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

Tkczecheredflag
08-08-2004, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by Rabbit05:
ITC honors went to Tim Klavana...I had a real fun time picking my way through the field trying to chase him down. I was pushing hard all race and had the Rabbit "hopping" all over..I got into some dirt on the outside of turn 2 after getting the lead, and that ended my race. I just tried to put in some good times at the end as Tim had a huge lead and the laps were running out. I managed to finsh second and third went to Fred...See ya in Oct. for the Runoffs.... http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

John VanDenburgh
ITC Rabbit 05
John - You looked amazing yesterday. I was hoping to have more time to race with you. I beleive you got caught in fluids as well as debris in Turn Two. After I came through (and thank you for rolling back off the track and not on to it), I was also very loose in two and three. Your car was really hooked up in the back through West Bend. Congrats on yet another track record, you are almost in the 4's amazing for a "C" car. I'll look foward to racing you in October. Fred I thought you and I were going to have a go at it yesterday, I know you had to use some avoidence maneuvers to keep your car in one piece, see you next race.
I too have been noticing some pretty poor driving the last two events. At NHIS I had the same "A" car spin three times in front of me. I wish I had seen what happened to Grant in Turn Two yesterday, but I was busy missing the mess. Grant and I go back to the days of flagging corners - he is a good racer and a gentlemen. Sorry I didn't have my camera going for this race. I think it's pretty bad when new drivers are driving over their heads when they should be learning how to control the car and build in speed. There are a couple of Honda CRX's and a Honda Prelude that fall into this category, nice looking CRX'S, marginal drivers at best. I was brought into this sport thinking we do this for fun, race hard but clean, bench race afterwards over a cold drink, and live to fight another day. Did I miss the change in philosphy somewhere along the way???? I still feel the "C" drivers are livng to that creed.
Tim Klvana
ITC #11
2002 NERRC Champion
2003 NARRC Champion



[This message has been edited by Tkczecheredflag (edited August 08, 2004).]

Nick Leverone
08-08-2004, 10:20 PM
The track was very fast this weekend, cool air temperatures and the sun kept the track warm. I have a question, if Shane did set a new record by how much under the existing. I feel the track was a good two to three tenth's quicker than I have ever driven it as evidence by my time.

------------------
Nick Leverone
04 ITS Mazda Rx-7
www.flatout-motorsports.com

gran racing
08-09-2004, 09:17 AM
Jake and Grant were doing just fine racing hard against each other as all of us would do if a beer were at stake! There was plenty of room for both of them through big bend until Grant received a “little help” to lose control. So no punting by Jake. The incident was extremely unfortunate and could have been much, much worse. He was sitting in the middle of big bend as traffic approached. What a horrible feeling! After all was said and done, Grant’s car certainly was not in the best of shape but fortunately he wasn’t hurt.

Hopefully he’ll be able to salvage the car and join us again soon. Jake and I always enjoy racing against Grant and his other RX7 compadres. I personally push it a bit more against the RX7s and Jake because I know we both respect each other and have built up trust that none of us will do anything foolish. Looking forward to seeing you out there Dick on Oct.

The ITB race was definitely the most fun to watch. Watching you guys from the hill was pretty amazing. Nice racing! And mid 1:04s? Wow. And I thought low 1:05s was crazy fast.


------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

dyoungre
08-09-2004, 10:51 AM
Anthony,
Based on the location of the chop, I believe that must have been me. If so I sincerely apologize, as I'm sure I misjudged your closing rate. Please email me directly at dyoungre_at_optonline_dot_net. I did not realize I had created such a dangerous situation; had I know I would have come by your paddock to apologize.

------------------
Dave Youngren
NER ITA RX7 #61

jwsbmw325
08-09-2004, 11:28 AM
Nick - congrats to you on the 1.00.08. You were flying for sure. Anthony S - I agree with you on there being some bad manners or lack of clue out there - as evidenced in our ITS race with a mid-packer taking Nick out on his way to a podium bid for sure. I myself got caught up in the mess, as a bunch of guys were all over the place, one nearly taking me out as I was forced to go around him on the outside up the hill and more just making a NJ Trunpike style mess is several turns. I'm not asking for everyone to pull off line and point us by, but when any front runner is coming back through, it would help not to drag-race into the corners and chop at the apex. Drive your line, but try not to make the guy coming back through do a hari kari style maneuver to get around you......

Tkczecheredflag
08-09-2004, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by dyoungre:
Anthony,
Based on the location of the chop, I believe that must have been me. If so I sincerely apologize, as I'm sure I misjudged your closing rate. Please email me directly at dyoungre_at_optonline_dot_net. I did not realize I had created such a dangerous situation; had I know I would have come by your paddock to apologize.


Dave - I think it was me you chopped in
T-7. I posted at the "Looking for Red Rx - 7" Topic. Correct me if I am wrong about this I know you were struggling as sparks were flying from under the car. [email protected]
Tim Klvana
ITC #11
2002 NERRC Champion
2003 NARRC Champion

Jake
08-09-2004, 01:33 PM
I don't want to start anything here (and I'm not talking about anyone in particular) - but I have 2 observations.

1- If someone has a problem with someone else's driving, I'd suggest taking the time to talk to that person directly after the race. (and not airing dirty laundry here) It gives that person the benefit of the doubt and a chance to improve. For instance, on Friday someone almost took me out doing a silly bonzai maneuver in qualifying, but I chose to talk to them about it in person instead of telling everyone else what a jerk they were.

2- What I was taught was to stay on line and it is up to the person passing to go off line and make the pass cleanly. I generally will brake early or accelerate a little slowly when I see Anthony coming so he has a safe place to make the pass, and we don't meet in an apex. And of course, if we do meet at an apex, I wouldn't squeeze him out. But I hope people aren't reading this thinking they should pull off line when a car is lapping. That can create a dangerous unpredictable situation. Since I lap people too, that would catch me by surprise.

ITSRX7
08-09-2004, 02:24 PM
Jake couldn't be more right. The key things in his post are critical but subtle.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I generally will brake early or accelerate a little slowly when I see Anthony coming so he has a safe place to make the pass, and we don't meet in an apex. And of course, if we do meet at an apex, I wouldn't squeeze him out.</font>

This is what makes for a safe, predictable situation. Understanding that you are being overtaken, making adjustments so that two cars don't meet at a critical juncture, and leaving racing room.

IMHO, too many people just "hold the line" with no other adjustments and bad things happen. Understanding that we aren't talking about cars racing for position.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited August 09, 2004).]

gran racing
08-09-2004, 02:56 PM
I also agree with Jake and do what I can to stay out of the way for the faster cars. Most of the time it can be done without interfering with either drivers race. Occasionally there isn’t much that could be done and a person may slow another car down a bit. But that is just a part of racing no matter what level we are talking about. And yes, I realize it can be frustrating! (I race with another club where my car is classed a bit differently and actually have the fun of being one of the leaders along with Jake)

The front runners also need to understand some other factors / perspectives as well. Many mid-to-back drivers simply do not have the same equipment be it Hoosiers (I for one use Kumos) or as good suspensions as some of the front runners. Some cars also have a limited performance potential compared to others. What this can mean is hitting that apex often becomes very important simply because the car would not be kept on the track otherwise or the car will be slowed to a point it would kill their race. PCAs and reclassifications hopefully will resolve some of the classing disparity.

Basically what I am saying is just because a person’s car might be able to hold a line at X speed does not mean that the other car can (having nothing to do with driver skill).

A person can’t correct something unless they are made aware that they are doing something that could be done differently. (And of course it should be done with respect)


------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

lewllewellyn
08-09-2004, 06:59 PM
I have received several E-mails in regards to the question of "staying on line". The best way I can answer this is from my own personal experience.

I attended a "practice day" at LRP a couple of weeks after my 2nd driver’s school and right before the Memorial Day weekend. The group of closed wheel cars was quite mixed from IMSA Camel Lights to GT1's and some showroom stock (like me).

When a Camel Light would blow by me, it shook the whole car and I about wet my pants. So, I did what I thought was the safest thing to do, I got out of their way.

The next lap, I received a "BLACK FLAG" and was told to report to the tower. When I got there, they asked "What the HELL are you doing?” To which I replied that I was getting out of their way. Then I was told very strongly, "Never do that again! You have to drive the line! That way, the overtaking car will "KNOW" where you are going to be!" It's their responsibility to safely pass you!

This agrees with the GCR which states something like, "It is the responsibility of the overtaking car to make a safe pass. The car being passed should not block the overtaking car" (I didn't get out the book, so don't expect it to be word for word, but that is the intent)

The only safe thing to do is to always drive the line. That way, any overtaking car will know where you are going to be! If there is contact, it would "probably" be the fault of the "overtaking car", not the slower car which is driving the line. In many cases that have ended up in a protest, I have seen both parties receive equal penalties for the contact.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

Lew Llewellyn

Greg Amy
08-09-2004, 08:03 PM
I'm with you, Lew, from both an overtaking and overtaken position. Staying on the line and being PREDICTABLE is the best offense and defense.

GregA

ITSRX7
08-09-2004, 09:12 PM
...except when 2 cars get to the corner at the same time. I think the situation concerning some is that some people are driving into cars that are 100% at their side. They are doing it under the 'must drive the line' syndrome.

2 cars side by side going into a corner means some adjustments have to be made by both in order for both to come out. It isn't always happening.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

lewllewellyn
08-09-2004, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by ITSRX7:
...except when 2 cars get to the corner at the same time. I think the situation concerning some is that some people are driving into cars that are 100% at their side. They are doing it under the 'must drive the line' syndrome.

2 cars side by side going into a corner means some adjustments have to be made by both in order for both to come out. It isn't always happening.

AB



You are absolutely right Andy! It seems like each one is taking the position that "they own the turn", when in fact both have the right to the turn. Adjustments must be made by both/all so that they both can go through the turn without contact!

In the ITB race last weekend, there was side-by-side racing with little or no contact most of the race. That proves that it can be done!

Lew

Tkczecheredflag
08-09-2004, 10:22 PM
I little common sense goes a long way here. Two cars are coming into the uphill, one is going 85 mph and the other trying to muster up 50 mph. The corner worker at Station 7 is waving, not showing, waving the blue and yellow, do you want the slower car holding the line or would prefer they give up the apex and pointing the faster car in. The "race line" is alot bigger and interpetative than just hitting the marks. I know I have opened up and let faster "A" cars in at the very spot and got a thank you or a wave afterwards. Do you want to be out in the marbles at 85, not me.
I know what the GCR says, but read section Section 1.2.4 says it "should not be given a strained or tortured interpretation and shall be applied in a logical manner," and read 9.1.2 again a tell me what it says about the resposibility of the driver being overtaken, that's a two way street too. Not beat a dead horse but we supoosed to help each other in tight spots.
Tim Klvana
ITC #11

Greg Amy
08-09-2004, 10:44 PM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...do you want the slower car holding the line or would prefer they give up the apex...?</font>

Tim, I'd prefer the former, but let's consider this from two perspectives:

First, a baseline for the discussion. Assume some amount of speed differential (let's use your 35 mph) to the car in front and you're both approaching the corner. Chances are you're going to arrive there at the same time, or damn close, but it's not a given. We're not talking about a situation where the trailing car can get door handle-to-door handle, we're talking about "Who's on first, What's on second, and I Dunno's on Third."

- OK, you're the faster, overtaking driver. You're coming up on someone else and you've got fractions of a second to decide what to do. Problem is, you don't KNOW what the other driver is going to do; thus, what are YOU going to do about it?

Remember, I'm sitting here typing this, with the luxury of time to think about it. These kind of decisions will have to be made in split seconds, without this luxury. Unless you've thought about this in advance, and planned what you're going to do about it, it's no longer instinctual and you're banking on a luxury you just ain't got. Oops, too late...!

The correct answer: you're going to PLAN that the driver in front of you is going to drive their line, plain and simple, and you as the overtaking driver are going to accomodate that expectation. If by some smile of fate you can get inside them before the corner, so much the better; but if not you know what to expect from the leading driver.

- OK, now you're the leading, slower driver. You look in your mirror and see the faster car coming up. You've got fractions of a second to decide what to do. Problem is, you don't KNOW what the other driver is going to do; thus, what are YOU going to do about it?

Correct answer: BE PREDICTABLE and drive your line, as that is what the overtaking driver is expecting you to do, and you're going to watch your mirrors. If by some smile of fate she can get inside of you before the corner, so much the better; but if not they know what to expect from you.

Now, let's look at the alternative: the slower, leading driver moves offline to "get out of the way." OK, move where? Which direction? Outside the line? Inside the line? Outside on left handers, inside on rights? Always to the left? Always to the right? What about double apexes? What about chicanes? What about wet slippery corners or dry corners with marbles? What about traffic: are you going left and the guy in front, right? What if you go different directions, do you compensate?

See where I'm going? At the very moment that the slower leading driver decides to drive offline - whether by courtesy, fear, or a sense of loathing - that driver BY DEFINITION becomes totally unpredictable to the trailing driver, and in most instances will not only become a hazard but will also ultimately slow down both cars. There is ZERO advantage to either parties in such unpredictability and any good driver will have the foresight and skillsets to "work the traffic" to everyone's benefit. The best drivers that have been commended for their ability to get through traffic have developed that craft based on the cooperation - by their predictability - of slower traffic. A good overtaking driver will plan on predictability and time their events to best take advantage of the traffic.

I'm sorry boys, but to claim otherwise reveals a distinct lack of racecraft.

Bottom line, use your best judgement but if you see me coming up on you, drive your line. By the same token, if you come up on me, expect ME to drive mine. Otherwise, we're gonna be doing the IT two-step...

Greg


[This message has been edited by grega (edited August 09, 2004).]

gran racing
08-09-2004, 10:44 PM
A little common sense goes a long way of course; you can't always go by the book. Heck yeah, if I see Tom, Anthony or one of the other fast guys (ITC cars included) I have no problem taking the uphill a bit differently. (needed to clarify) As in possibly turn in a bit later allowing a pass before the hill.

Tim, it is probably a little more important for you and other ITC cars to hit the apex and not lose any speed (for example on the down hill) then some of the A cars. If you lose your momentum, it really hurts. From a "faster car's" perspective I should try to set up the turn and allow you to carry as much through the down hill as possible. Either pass before the turn or wait just a tiny bit and get the car right after the turn. Basically like you said - it takes both parties to be sensible.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[This message has been edited by gran racing (edited August 09, 2004).]

p99ro
08-09-2004, 11:16 PM
Ding.
When I see a car I know is going slower I have to time my aproch to fit in a safe place . This may mean backing a little before the entry and faster out to over take the car. Now the slower driver "who I had a lot of experience with" must adjust a little as well. How do you think the Lemans guys do it.Racing to me is about driving well with others.It`s the challange of the drive.
Dong.
Scott Wish I had been there Haven CRX 09 ITA NER.

Scott Nutter
08-09-2004, 11:17 PM
grega,

Yes .


[This message has been edited by Scott Nutter (edited August 09, 2004).]

Tkczecheredflag
08-10-2004, 05:17 AM
Greg - I agee and concede. I hope this discussion has provoked drivers to think this through a bit more than we have in the past. If so I think we have accomplished a lot. Thanks
Tim Klvana
ITC #11



[This message has been edited by Tkczecheredflag (edited August 10, 2004).]

JLawton
08-10-2004, 07:05 AM
Having been a back marker for most of my career, I am very experienced at being passed. Have I screwed up in the past and held a faster car up?? You bet!! I'm sure we have all done that at some point and time.

However, I am very aware of faster cars approaching. If I feel we are going to meet at the apex, I brake a little early and let him by under braking. If I can reach the apex without chopping, I stay on line and keep my foot on it.

I also like the idea of talking to the other driver after the race instead of using this forum to call him a jerk. How do you think you would react in the next race when the guy calling you a jerk was coming up fast during the race....... How would you react if the other driver talked to you in a nice friendly way after the race......

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Jeff L
#74 ITB GTi

dickita15
08-10-2004, 07:28 AM
great discussion guys. i would like to see more like this
dick

JLawton
08-10-2004, 08:02 AM
I got to thinking about this more.......

It is always assumed that the slower car is in the wrong. I remember two years ago a very fast ITS RX7 took themselves out of the lead on a crazy pass http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif!!(I held my line) We talked after, no hard feelings and you can bet that I will help him in a race any chance I get!!

I have been dive bombed in corners where if I held my line there would have been serious carnage. They assumed I would move off line so they could make the pass!!

Common sense goes a loooooong way.........

gran racing
08-10-2004, 08:34 AM
Jeff,
You brought up a good point. People definately remember how drivers have acted in the past and take that into consideration.

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

ITSRX7
08-10-2004, 09:09 AM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">However, I am very aware of faster cars approaching. If I feel we are going to meet at the apex, I brake a little early and let him by under braking. If I can reach the apex without chopping, I stay on line and keep my foot on it.</font>

This is exactly what I was trying to explain. Great Job Jeff. It's how we all should drive.

Greg's is also right but he describes a different situation - a faster car APPROACHING a slower car at the apex. For my dollar, the faster car should be 'setting up' the slower car for a pass on exit - and the aforementioned predictibility will allow a safe and quick pass.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

Tom Blaney
08-10-2004, 09:31 AM
In my oponion, I truly believe that the slower car should drive the line as predictibly and as smoothly as possible, and let the faster car go around him/her. In a lot of race situations especially when there is a major disparity in speed, the faster driver (assume intelligent) should have already made a decision what he is going to do when he passes the slower driver in the corner. I normally assume that the slower driver is going to stay on his path, and that based on the speed that I am approaching him, I pretty much figured out where I will be when I pass him. If the slower driver makes an unplanned move than there will be a problem, because there won't be a whole lot of tire grip left for both drivers to readjust. The result is damaged cars and egos. Additionally especially in a close race between the faster driver and the fast car that is trying to pass him, the first of the two faster drivers will try and use the lapped car as part of his stratagy and will plan on that as part of the pass. So the slower lapped car now lets the first driver by but pulls up off the gas to be nice, and finds that the other faster drive just drilled him in the butt.

So my recommendation is two fold. First if you are being lapped, please drive your line keep your speed, and be preditictable. Second if your the faster car, keep in mind that this is a hobby, we all have to go to work on Monday, and Roger Penski is not watching your every move with pen and paper in hand.

JohnRW
08-10-2004, 11:08 AM
[This message has been edited by JohnRW (edited August 10, 2004).]

RSTPerformance
08-10-2004, 03:49 PM
When being lapped by faster cars (and smart drivers I trust) I try to leave room at the entrence under braking, at the Apex, or at the exit. It depends where I am being overtaken. I will go off line to help the faster car, if I know that my action is predictable.

I also try to give a point-by to let the driver know... Take me under braking, or take me on the exit.

The big thing I hate from a lapping car (the faster one) is when they pass you under braking then are a lot slower than you through the turn, Sometimes I just wish they would save that muscle for the streight especially if they are not safe enough driver to be passing in the turns... This seems to happen a lot with the ITS/ITB cars. I find it amaizing how much driver talent is different throughout the fields. You can tell a lot from seeing the drivers who can hold that momentum through the turns vs. someone just being able to point and shoot.

On the other side when lapping other cars I expect room, but I don't always get it. Many times I find the prime passing point to be under braking and through the apex. Some people might see it as a "Dive bomb" move but in my car I could easily go that fast without a problem through the turn.

Each time I have a close call I wonder to myself... was I (the passing car unpredictable) or is the slower car just clueless to their suroundings???

In any (every) case we should all be well aware of our suroundings and predictable.

Keep Safe;

Raymond

tdw6974
08-10-2004, 04:35 PM
Ray, you mention "point By" brings to mind the IMSA drivers meeting at Watkins Glen when I was in the Tech office and could not get out for the drivers Meeting. In this particular event they were running ALL the classes together GTO GTU GTP as you can imagine there was huge difference in speeds ie Corvette GTP near 200 mph at end of the straight. Imsa wnated them to point the over taking car by and Dereck bell spoke up and said there in could be a problem as in European racing they would point to where they were going to get out of the way. This lead to some good natured name calling etc etc. but worked out well in the end when everyone decided to do the same. Most interesting race was a Firehawk 24 Hr when 139 cars started lot of broken/bent cars that year. Just some thoughts from an old timer http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

m glassburner
08-10-2004, 07:53 PM
I think point-bys are great!! To me it tells me he/she at least sees me and now I feel dare I say it....a little more comfortable... http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif mike g.

RSTPerformance
08-10-2004, 11:18 PM
Predictability is safer but not the safest.

[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited August 10, 2004).]

RSTPerformance
08-10-2004, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
Predictability is great but not neccasarily the correct answer. If you are being lapped you should give a point by. If you are aware of your surroundings you would have most likly seen a pass flag and you definetly should have seen the car approaching. If you neglect to give a pass by you are not racing safely. By not giving a point bye you have done the worst possible thing to the overtaking driver.... you have given them the realization that you may not have any idea you are behind them. That creates an unsafe environment and makes the overtaking driver decide the end result and all he can do is hope and pray that it all works out in the end. Being predictable is not a safe driver... yes it makes the overtaking drivers decision easier but not any safer. GIVE POINT BYES!

I have been fortunet enough to get the opportunity to lap other vehicles. I find the biggest issue that I have is that the driver in front has no clue about there surroundings. This past weekend for example I was the car in second place therefor the second overtaking car. The first issue I saw was only one point bye all weekend. The only car to give a point bye in the ITB/SM race/practice/qualifying was the black ITB BMW. The other obsurd thing was that a lap car would be overtaken under braking by the lead car then move over and stay on line by slamming the door shut on me to make there apex. For god sake look in your mirrors if one car is lapping you and another is 2 car lengths back let them both bye! A race is completly ruined when lap cars do this. It is very unsafe and inconsiderate.

So I thank the Black BMW for the point bye and most importantly for being a safe driver. Your the only dafe driver that I saw that I lapped.... so anyone that got passed and had a blue pass flag or that got lapped by the blue/silver audi please be safer, more awaire, and more considerate.

Thank you
Stephen

PS I apologize if I didn't give anyone else a point bye and feel free to let me kow during the weekend if I don't. Unless of course you are racing with me http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif I have learned a lot about being a slower car now that I am a faster one.

Greg Amy
08-11-2004, 09:11 AM
I'm taking up a collection from the group to buy Stephen and Raymond their own IT.com login accounts. Who's in?

http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

gran racing
08-11-2004, 12:39 PM
Ah, but the big question is what would the other name be? RST Audi? Is this setting up a race for the RST performance name at the Oct. race? Winner takes it?

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

emwavey
08-11-2004, 05:32 PM
Wow this thread turned out to be very informative. Being new to this whole IT thing, and just having gone through a school in February, I made it a habit to use point-byes... especially since I was in the slowest class running. (IT-7 - GT1).

I've also found some relation to the idea of looking, ie, being aware of who's not only behind me, but who's in front. I found myself doing something that was mentioned... kind of helping the timing of a pass.

IF I knew some of the hot and heavy T-1 cars were approaching and they were going to meet me at the beginning or at the approach of a turn, sure, I'd stay wide and let them by... they were already there. Partially because they had the speed and particially because I may have let off a little early or whatever.

Having read Greg's post helps clarify something for me too. When it is close or the speed variation isn't as great, staying on the racing line and being predictable is helping me to understand when exactly to do what.

I also, believe it or not, did some passing. I found out about that timing thing and trying to set up a pass on exit... late apex, brake early, gas early, etc.

I think the part that I'm going to have to work on is passing under braking. It seems to be the least confidence inspiring type of pass... or maybe better put, the pass that requires trust of both drivers.

Please keep this thead going! I'm learning tons and hope to be a predictable and safe ITA driver soon.

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-dave
8)
Got Photos?... post 'em here: http://y3k.shacknet.nu:31338/gallery/

Scott Koschwitz
08-11-2004, 05:55 PM
I currently race in Showroom Spec Miata, though I originally intended to race in ITB (hence the registration on this site in 2001). Of course, the points we're discussing here are applicable in every class.

Now having some meager experience (two race weekends), I can chime in, for what it's worth.

I wholeheartedly agree with the comments about being predictable. Just this past weekend, I was nearly the victim of a lapped driver moving over on me at the entrance to No Name. Despite the fact I completely filled his mirrors through the Esses, and he got the blue flag at 5, he still moved over on me, just as I was moving right to pass. I had to back out of the pass until he realized he was getting passed. Contact was a bit too close for comfort. I just don't think he was checking his mirrors.

It amazes me that some drivers don't check their mirrors on a regular basis to check who's coming up on them. I always try to keep tabs where I am in relation to the cars ahead and behind me, and try to check my mirrors at the exit of each corner (assuming the next corner isn't coming up too quickly).

I'm also a big fan of giving a point by, which adds to my predictability for the passing car. The last thing I want to do is ruin another guy's fast lap in a qualifying session or his race.

I paddocked next to Stephen and Raymond this past weekend, and was surprised to hear so many of the (generally newer) Spec Miata drivers didn't appear to be aware of the cars around them, much less preparing to be passed by faster traffic, or giving a point by.

Stephen and Raymond: good paddocking next to you guys this weekend. You guys ran an impressive race. I'll see you at the NARRC Runoffs.

Nick Leverone
08-11-2004, 08:45 PM
As a guy who is usually doing the passing I must say that point bys are very important. It tells the overtaking car that you know they are there however this is only applicable if you are lapping someone because no one in their right mind is going to give up a position with a point by.

My general approach when over taking a lapped car or a car I am re passing because I was stupid enough to take myself on an off course excursion is this, LRP uphill, west bend, downhill if I am not MORE THAN 1/2 up the other drivers door before the braking zone I will back out and pull behind them, other corners you do not need to be as far up.

If I am in a battle with another ITS car at the front things change, every situation is different but I will press the pass a bit more if I am being pressed from behind and in this case I need more help from the slower car.

I thankfully haven't had too many situations passing cars, however I am the faster ITS Rx-7 from Jeff Lawton's earlier post. I thought he was leaving room on the outside leading to No Name turns out he wasn't, I took myself out of the lead and learned something from the experience. Hopefully we all learn something from every situation we encounter on the track this is what makes us better drivers.



------------------
Nick Leverone
04 ITS Mazda Rx-7
www.flatout-motorsports.com

JLawton
08-12-2004, 07:14 AM
Nick,
I didn't mean to drag you into this. Looking back at it, I was totally freaked that I had taken you out of the race! I just wanted to get the hell out of your way!! I'm glad we can laugh about it now!! You are certainly not one of the drivers I talked about in my previous post. You have passed me many times and have always (except for once http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif) done it safely and smartly (if smartly is a word.....).

However, as I mentioned before (and this does not include the top 3-5 cars in ITS) there are fast cars that scare the crap out of me because they will attempt to pass even if they are out of position to do so.........

Again, I think it makes for a better IT community in NER if we try to politely discuss it after the race or in an e-mail as opposed to harpooning on this site. (I've learned from experience......)

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Jeff L
#74 ITB GTi

Tkczecheredflag
08-12-2004, 07:39 AM
Jeff - You have to able to find the driver you would like to speak with, and Saturday the one driver who needed to be spoken with by the stewards and pther drivers is MIA, they took the quick road out. Funny thing I was warned about the very same driver just prior to the race, as a guy who drives over their head and spins frequently.
I have made my fair share of mistakes over the years and have been spoken with on and off line. We are big boys asnd girls and I feel this thread had been a good learning expereince for me. I think if we are careful about how we point out each others mistakes in this forum hopefully we won't offend eacj other and the learning can continue.
On a personal note, if I have offended anyone in this thread or previous threads I apologize as that was not my intention.

Tim Klvana
ITC #11
2002 NEERC Champion
2003 NARRC Champion

gran racing
08-12-2004, 10:01 AM
If you can’t find the driver at that race, then I would simply suggest trying to locate them the next race. Maybe the person doesn’t even realize that they are doing anything wrong. Sometimes it isn’t such a bad thing if the discussion waits until the next event anyway. There have been times I wanted to “talk” to other drivers but smartly realized I was still a bit too pissed off to have a meaningful conversation with the driver at that time.

“I think if we are careful about how we point out each others mistakes in this forum hopefully we won’t offend each other and the learning can continue.”

This is definitely true and I personally don’t have an issue if brought up properly. But then again I occasionally (well, maybe more then that) browse this thread as do some of my friends. In this case, no big deal. If I was doing something wrong, I would still rather discuss it offline wheither it be in person or via e-mail. Everyone has to remember that there are many people that do not browse this forum. I personally would be pretty pissed if someone was talking about me essentially behind my back in an open public forum. This only adds fuel to the issue and resolves nothing. (This is really being said as a general comment)

In my opinion, it would be very helpful to us all if there was a bit more grooming of new drivers. This could be addressed in a few ways. I’ve seen too many new drivers not utilize HPDEs and go directly to SCCA racing. They think they will learn everything through the SCCA schools. I remember the first HPDE I did. The instructor told me to look up at my mirror and watch the corner workers. What, is he crazy? I really needed to focus other things. And this certainly doesn’t apply just to me. I’m now on the other side of the fence and instruct at HPDEs and see this reaction all the time. Now everything is second nature and I process the information much, much quicker. Think of the person that does not fully (or not at all) utilize HPDEs and what is happening – input overload. Is it that person’s fault? I guess it depends on how you look at things. There should be a bigger push to utilize HPDEs. They are an excellent learning tool and provide tons of seat time and instruction.

I’ve also always felt that there should be a mentor program for new drivers. Heck, if a driver had an issue with a newer driver they could even speak with the mentor about their concerns.

Em – what ITA car do you drive? It’s always nice to put a face to a name. (I drive a bright yellow prelude)

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

Tkczecheredflag
08-12-2004, 10:27 AM
Dave - I agree with your points especially the mentor program. I drive ITC #11 the Yellow CRX
Tim Klvana

RSTPerformance
08-12-2004, 08:48 PM
Another reason to have an impound all... match faces with cars so you can either talk (respectfully) in impound or later in the day when you see them wondering the pits.

Raymond "I always go to impound, why don't you" Blethen

jwsbmw325
08-13-2004, 10:47 AM
Hey Guys I liek the mentor idea. I also think that 2 SCCA schools really isnt enough. I did a lot of BMW club driver schools before i started racing. And even though they are not race oriented, there was a lot of emphasis on being heads up, aware of flags, flagging stations, other drivers, etc.....maybe we should try to put something together?? Might save us all some dents and make our race weekends better. Who needs to finish a race thinking "man that sucked, this guy clipped me, and that guy blew a yellow, etc..." It should be fun and safe.

Tkczecheredflag
08-19-2004, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by lewllewellyn:
The Honda Civic ITA that finished in 2nd place set a new lap record, I am pretty sure. The leaders tires were probably going away at the finish,

It will be a while before the results are final. One of the 2 protests in ITA could not be completed as one of the parties had left the track. However, it will be completed via telephone, e-mail or other correspondence.

There was some really good racing in all the IT classes. The ITB race was really close and clean! Side by side for most of the race with little contact! Thanks to ALL in that Group!

Considering that 272 cars started 10 Race Groups, the Event went Pretty Well from an Operation standpoint. The metal-to-metal was reduced, but still more that we would like to see. However, if we ALL continue to work together, it will be better!

Thanks to all those who attended!!


Lew Llewellyn
Chief Steward

Lew
Are the reults final yet. I was looking for a copy of the "Final Results" sheets on line. Need those for contingency Hoosier Tire Money.

Tim Klvana
ITC #11