Run groups esp. ITS

[RR]

Steve U thanks for informing on comp board meeting. One issue that has surfaced is run groups. Was wondering why ITS must be paired with ITB? Big difference in speed and has proved to be quite dangerous. Few years back ITS was thrown in with GT, AS or Touring, which was fine. Then we were dodging out the way for faster cars, but fewer wrecks.

I am concerned with this years abnormal number of accidents, and people running cars that could be described as not up to par - resulting in wrecks. Can we address this issue somehow??

Thanks, Russ Jones

[robits325is]

I would prefer to run with ITB over American Sedan any day. Last year at the June or July race we were grouped together with AS and it was a mess. ITS cars are fast throught the turns and braking while the AS cars are fast going straight. We all ran about the same lap times making for a real traffic jam.

So far this year the ITB drivers have been great at watching their mirrors and leaving passing room.

Ideally, a class of just ITS cars would be the way to go...maybe someday

Rob Driscoll

[ITSRX7]

Russ,

I hear what you are saying, however I would rather be the overtaking car than the car being overtaken. Per the rules, and in practicality, it is my responsibility to make the safe move - and I would rather have that responsibilty in my hands than someone elses.

I do think it makes for better racing when there is at least 2 class differences in speed on the track. Our tracks are so slow in comparison to Pocono, Daytona, etc. the speed differential isn't THAT much. That is why ITS, AS and GT3, etc. run together at Pocono.

The NHIS crash in our run group wasn't caused by speed differential, just by a loose car in a critcal area, could have been two ITS cars...the crashes at LRP were:

2 ITS cars getting together
An ITB car on its own
An ITS car in it's own oil
An ITS car sliding into an ITB car that had spun on it's own...

Again, I hear ya...

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[RR]

Rob, after reading your post I will agree with you about AS, so I retract AS from my previous post. My point was to lessen or try and balance the amount of cars in our group (and other groups). Since ITS and ITB are so popular we seem to be maxed out. More importantly, people need to show up with good quality race cars with tires that are reasonably fresh. I witnessed many cars that were totally out of control, that were both not tuned or with inferior equipment. You cant run a quality race car on the absolute edge with other cars zig zagging all over the track when your lapping.

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by bmw#29:
My point was to lessen or try and balance the amount of cars in our group (and other groups). Since ITS and ITB are so popular we seem to be maxed out.

Now THAT is a tough one. I think the Region is looking hard at every group since the SSM/SM class(es) are making this a real issue.

Can't wait to have you back Russ!!!!

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[Jake]

I gotta say that keeping the number of run groups down has got to be priority #1. I'll run my ITA car with GT1 and ITC if I have to if it helps us get out of the situation we had at the last LRP event.

[gran racing]

"Since ITS and ITB are so popular we seem to be maxed out. More importantly, people need to show up with good quality race cars with tires that are reasonably fresh. I witnessed many cars that were totally out of control, that were both not tuned or with inferior equipment. You cant run a quality race car on the absolute edge with other cars zig zagging all over the track when your lapping."

I am trying not to read into this too much here...I'll assume you are talking about some very lacking cars.

Keep in mind this is IT and is an entry into racing for many people. I can't afford to run fresh Hoosiers all of the time.

Out of control cars - you are right. The drivers need to be smart and not do stupid things.

By the way...how many cars does ITA typically run? A lot! The overall run groups need to be reviewed by the various regions - I know NER is taking a look at them...

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[jhooten]

We have a run group that is all the IT cars and another that is the regional Mazda group (SM SRX7). The other run groups (a total of seven usually) are all national classes. The National and regional cars are not put in the same run groups unless the car counts are low and groups combined, especially on a reg/nat weekend. It seems the national class guys don't want us to be the spoilers in their races.

[gran racing]

how many IT cars do you have total then? What region? Just curious. We typically have 30 plus ITA cars alone. Probably about 15 - 20 ITB. Not sure ITS but a bunch.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[dickita15]

Originally posted by jhooten:
We have a run group that is all the IT cars and another that is the regional Mazda group (SM SRX7). The other run groups (a total of seven usually) are all national classes. The National and regional cars are not put in the same run groups unless the car counts are low and groups combined, especially on a reg/nat weekend. It seems the national class guys don't want us to be the spoilers in their races.

sounds like your from texas
we don't run regional nationals so the minnimum requirments of a national points race do not apply.
dick

[dickita15]

Originally posted by bmw#29:
My point was to lessen or try and balance the amount of cars in our group (and other groups).

as jake alluded to track time and number of cars in a group are inversley propotional

dick

[jhooten]

Yep, from the land of year round racing, Texas. We will have from 20 to 30 cars in the IT group and from 40 to max capacity for the Mazda group. I have seen 55 SMs alone take the start.

Our group is usually about 6 SP, 9 ITS, 10 ITA, 3 ITE, and several BG if memory serves me.

ITS will get smaller and ITA will get bigger next year with the Neons reclass. And I may make the jump to ITE because the 240s are killing my poor 85 Supra.

[Greg Amy]

Having lived and raced in Texas for many years before moving to the Northeast (long story...) I can say with confidence that you guys really have no problems in this regard.

Texas tracks are a lot larger, allowing more cars on at a time. Our biggest problems come at Lime Rock, which is a 1.53-mile circuit, only allowing 40 cars at a time. We dodged the Spec Miata bullet this year only by chance: we had 57 SM entries but the Northeast group has two SM-related classes. Fortunately, they got split up into separate race groups and everyone got to race.

We are also experiencing rapid growth in ITS and ITA, but yet to have experienced a growth in the IT2-compatible cars: Neons, 4-cyl Nissans, 2-liter-ish Hondas, etc. As these cars get moved to ITA, I predict we'll see a rapid growth in their participation numbers. Whether that results in increased entries overall, or a cannibalization from other classes, remains to be seen (no predictions from me, there.)

I miss Texas, especially the February Double National (imagine: racing in February!) but I certainly don't miss being out on an asphalt/concrete paddock with air temps at 110 degrees. I remember races out at Big Spring and Ardmore at airport circuits where the only thing within 150 miles to block the sun and wind was the side of your car...(imagine: comfortable temperatures in July!)

GA

[rbt510]

I agree, ITS and ITA fields are geting larger each year. I would like to see ITB and ITC moved together, as was done at 2003 NARRC. Most fun I have had all year. Speed differential is not as great. You could also add other classes like SSB and SSC, which tend to have a small number of entrants, at the regional level at least.

Bob

[This message has been edited by rbt510 (edited May 25, 2004).]

[Rabbit05]

I agree with Bob ! I had a blast running with the ITB cars. I didn t seem that we got in the way too much and we had an awesome race with a bunch of C cars together. What do you ITB guys think? And can/will this happen again?
John ITC Rabbit 05

[gran racing]

This sounds great coming from a person that currently races in ITA with ITC and may be in ITB in '05.

But where would ITA go? Can't combine it with ITS. Realistically I think ITA & ITC should stay grouped together - 30 plus ITA cars and about 5 ITC cars. What, about 15 - 20 ITB cars.

The real issue is with the other classes.



------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[rbt510]

Originally posted by gran racing:
But where would ITA go? Can't combine it with ITS. Realistically I think ITA & ITC should stay grouped together - 30 plus ITA cars and about 5 ITC cars. What, about 15 - 20 ITB cars.
[/B]

Dave,
I thought the main concern was speed differential, and secondly growing entrants in some classes. ITA can run by themselves, as can ITS. The 5 or 6 ITC cars cause poor racing for the 30 ITA cars because of speed diff. ITB and ITC are closer in speed. They can make up a 20 to 30 car field, add SSB and SSC to thin out some of the other crowded groups.
Bob


[This message has been edited by rbt510 (edited May 25, 2004).]

[Blix]

I run in the SSM/SM mess. I see a few things.
1. IF SM/SSM ran as SM only then the slower SM/SSM cars could be paired with ITS based on speed The downside is that because of the nature of the class, those arem't underprepared cars. bit rather underprepared drivers. so to speak. Perhaps, when SSM disappears the slower cars can be mixed in with a class that will help solve this, but I don't think that is an immediate solution.
2. There ARE too many cars in the IT/SM classes for the nubmer of run groups that we are being given. This leads me to the point that will make sense here, but I think will cause major issues for the SCCA.
3. The open wheel categories seem to have far fewer cars on the track at any given time than we do. It would seem logical to combine some of those race groups. However, I think that by nature, the open wheel classes are significantly more dangerous, and perhaps it is a good idea for SCCA racing to have fewer cars on track in those classes. From a pragmatic sense (and this isn't the only reason for this) I think that putting as many open wheel cars on the track as we do SM cars would lead indirectly to an increase in insurance rates, and thus an increase in entry fees.

Perhaps the solution is to work with the sports racer and open wheel guys to put together a set of groupings that will allow the open wheel cars to run safely, but yet in fewer run groups, such as FA, FC, FM, FF, CSR, DSR, FF, and CFF, NCF, SRF, FV, F5.

One of the big issues that I see is that the regions seem stuck on keeping the Formula Ford based cars togehter, rather than using them to fill holes in the open wheel groups, as they can really run with both

Just my opinon.

[gran racing]

Bob,
The speed difference between ITA and ITC has never been a problem. Besides, the ITC guys are usually midpack in the ITA field anyways. Now the issue with ITS and ITB - can't speak about that, not really sure.

I would love to see more room for IT cars. But as it currently stands, we already have plenty of run groups to fit a single day event in. How many national races are there at LRP each year? Maybe (as someone else thought of) make the regionals restricted?

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[RR]

Dave, you just posted something quite interesting. Our races are Regional, and we and not invited to Nationals. I notice Spec Racers and other open wheels National cars attend our Regional races. This gives them a much bigger schedule and limits ours. Could it be time to discontinue this trend and make Regionals truly Regionals.

[rbt510]

For 2004 there are two nationals and 3 regionals plus the NARRC runnoffs at Lime Rock. Getting more dates is most likely not an option, so you can't limit the number of races available to some classes. All classes except IT and SM are national classes, but you never know how many people are going to register for a each class or event. Lime Rock race on May 8th had 60+ cars in SSM and SM, but Pocono had under 15 and it ran with ITAITC. I don't think eliminating Open wheels classes, or any class for that matter is the answer. I would rather they adjust the race groups based on who shows up to maximize the track time and safety for everyone.....

------------------
Bob



[This message has been edited by rbt510 (edited May 26, 2004).]

[lateapex911]

Generally speaking, and others can correct me here, but aren't regionals the cash cos, and Nationals the (potential) money losers?

I am of the belief that, in general, Regional racing is waht makes the Regions their profit, and allows the show to continue.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Karl Bocchieri]

It would be interesting to see the balance sheets for the regions in relation to the profit/loss for regional,national,solo,and rally racing. Unfortunatly I think that most regions clump club racing together (reg.+nat.).

On a similar note I wrote the BOD and asked why stats of cars and classes in regional racing are not recorded and printed in Fastrack like they are for national racing. They said that they are going to start that soon. It will be interesting to see how many IT racers there are in comparison to the other classes, and their avg. participation numbers vs. other classes.

[RKramden]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
I am of the belief that, in general, Regional racing is waht makes the Regions their profit, and allows the show to continue.


Jake, next Comp Board meeting you go to, pay attention when Elisabeth goes over the numbers. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

IIRC, the region makes money on Nationals and Regionals, but loses money on the Drivers Schools. It's often hard to tell, as the costs of the Drivers School and the Regional the same weekend get lumped together as many of the costs are shared.

I know for other regions this is not always true, but in the Northeast, it's mostly true.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by RKramden:
Jake, next Comp Board meeting you go to, pay attention when Elisabeth goes over the numbers. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

IIRC, the region makes money on Nationals and Regionals, but loses money on the Drivers Schools. It's often hard to tell, as the costs of the Drivers School and the Regional the same weekend get lumped together as many of the costs are shared.

I know for other regions this is not always true, but in the Northeast, it's mostly true.

Well, its a long drive and it's tough to be there for the treasurers report! But I have made it often enough to know that the Regionals are more likely to pull the cash in.

And I was speaking generally, because nationally, I think it is even more the case.

In terms of groups, I do think that flexibility at the event is key, as the numbers do change. Lime Rock is the toughest, as it draws the biggest crowd, and the allowable racing time is shorter than almost any track in the country.

I give our folks good grades considering we have huge turnouts at a difficult venue.

That said, someone upstairs needs to understand that many race cars overheat at the speeds we were lapping at behind the pace car. A 'black flag all' was the obvious call, at least to me, as I drove by and got a look on the second lap and thought, "This is gonna take forever."



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[gran racing]

What makes thing tough is that several regions run regionals at LRP. I'm slowly getting over the fact that ITA/ITC had no race. And it is not the fault of the person that had the incident. (Ironically enough, my wheel bored out when heat cycling the tires one week prior to the race. So, yes it could have been me.)

What is hard is that if another region has issues with a group (yeah, me, me, me) they would say the same thing. This is the first time this year we had an issue. But to that person, it isn't the first time because they run several races at LRP with different regions. What is the solution? Unfortunately I have no idea. Wish I did.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[JeffYoung]

The ITA car counts at Lime Rock amaze me. At my home track (VIR), we are lucky to get 4-5 cars. 12-14 ITS cars is a good field and IT7 usually has 10 or so (maybe that's where all the ITA cars are........). Total fun group of 25-30 on a 3.27 mile track..(imagine that: room to run).

Down here, SM is the class that ate IT. Everyone is building one of the damn things.

[ITSRX7]

Ready for this Jeff? Sorry - no TR8's http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

1st Regional at LRP 2-3 weeks ago:

ITS/ITB: 39 cars
SM/SSM: 54 cars
ITA/ITC: 38 cars

LRP is a 1.5ish mile track with a maxed-out max of 40 cars per run group.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
Ready for this Jeff? Sorry - no TR8's http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

1st Regional at LRP 2-3 weeks ago:

ITS/ITB: 39 cars
SM/SSM: 54 cars
ITA/ITC: 38 cars

LRP is a 1.5ish mile track with a maxed-out max of 40 cars per run group.

AB



this is intersting as SM (nad the NE version, SSM, are closer to IT thatn anything, the total car count for IT is 131, well over 50% of the field.

RX-7s here are down...we have no IT7, and some folks have given up. This past race we had 4 I think, with 4 other regulars not on the track yet.



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[JeffYoung]

I would say that IT7 "saved" the RX7 in my region, except that the 3-4 fastest Ist Gen RX7s run near the front of ITA and the fastest is damn near as fast as the ITS cars.

Jake, you think at LRP, an IT7 class would help bring back those 7s that are just sitting around? I imagine that they are still, by number, the most popular Club Racing car out there. MARRS has a HUGE SRX7 population, and IT7 is big here in the SEDiv.

If there were a national set of rules for IT7 like SM, I think the car could benefit from it.

But still, the A counts at LRP AMAZE me, especially if there aren't a whole bunch of 7s. What kind of cars are we talking about? A bunch of CRXs? Or is there variety?

[lateapex911]

here's the count-
Honda Civics-6
Honda CRX-4
Acura Integra-4 (and 3 more that were no shows)
Mazda RX-7- 4
Mazda Miata -3
VW Golfs -3
Honda Prelude- 2
BMW 2002 - 2
Toyota MR-2 -1
Ford Escort - 1
Nissan 240 SX -1 (and 1 no show)

Honda seems to hold the lions share, with 16, folowed by mazda with 7

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[JeffYoung]

Interesting. That's a great mix, and what IT is supposed to be about. Any one make dominate? Or do the CRXs split time on the podium with the Acuras and the 240s and the RX7s?

Another A car that did well down here was the Protege. Interesting.

And Andy...no TR8s....uh...there's a REASON for that....lol.

[gran racing]

CRX and the Integra.

But that is just what has been more developed then other cars and people seem to gravitate to these. I still think the 240 could be a good car to have.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[lateapex911]

Well...it seems the guys in the NE think the Integra is the platform to have. Serra just turned a 1:01.9 in his in qualifying. Guys who have beaten the RX-7 development deal to death go out and get a new car, like an Integra with a stock motor and are instantly in the 3s.

The 240 hasn't seen much action here. I suspect it is due to high initial cost, and the relatively difficult development process.

The fastest CRX has turned low 1:02s, with a very experienced driver who is quite good.

With fields of 7 Integras, 4 CRXs, a 240 or 2, the best the rest of us can hope for is mid pack. My RX-7 sees the 4s occasionally and I feel the 3s are possible, but thats a long way from the front, esp. when it gets engulfed by all the cars with torque at the start.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[JeffYoung]

Jake, do you race other places, like maybe Watkins Glen or Pocono, where the 7 can get wound up and stay wound up?

[lateapex911]

At the Glen, the hills are tough...just not enough oomph... and I have raced at Pocono, but it was in a light crowd of 8 or 9, I ran 2nd....BUT, none of the fast guns were there. It was years ago, ...'97?

So a big "I dunno" about Pocono. I do run NHIS, and the car is stronger there, but it's still well off the pace, but I'll keep plugging and developing. Off to the dyno next week (If the A/F meter arrives) to do some carb tuning and some exhaust testing.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]