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67ITB
04-18-2004, 06:33 AM
So what went down at NHIS this weekend?

Matt Bal

irondragon
04-18-2004, 08:07 PM
Matt:
It was not what went down - but rather what went up.
In the ITS/ITB race I came down the hill into Turn 10 and there were two flying rabbits. One was horizontal and rolling, the other was vertical and rising. I was hoping not to be under when either came down.
The race was pretty much a cock-up. The Pace Car restart didn't work, because half the field thought it OK to pass the other half whose drivers hadn't understood the presence of the invisible green flag. In the ensuing time a car spun out at Turn 3 requiring a full course black, and subsequently a hasty but complete re-grid in pit lane. The rest of the race went to the finish.
A very strange race but I admire the quick work of the Grid types who got suddenly called to pit lane and who did the reorganisation just beautifully.
Still not sure why some of the strange things happened.
BEst Regards Bill Miskoe

m glassburner
04-18-2004, 08:13 PM
Everybody ok?? WOW!! would like to see some video of that!! mike g.

[This message has been edited by m glassburner (edited April 18, 2004).]

therooster
04-18-2004, 08:30 PM
I just was there for the school. Although I did not get signed off for the school (not for lack of trying. I was short on time because my car broke and I ended up borrowing 2 cars. That is the reason of this post.) I would like to publically thank irondragon and mmiskoe for their help this weekend. I have known both for a couple years but they went above and beyond trying get me signed off this weekend. Both let me drive their cars, and irondragon even spent time working on mine as I drove mmiskoe's or his. AND I had minor incidents in both. SO THANKS both Matt and Bill.

Chris Aylward

16v
04-18-2004, 09:34 PM
one word: carnage

------------------
Doug :)
NER.org (http://ner.org)
the16v.com (http://the16v.com)
briansgarage.com (http://www.briansgarage.com)

itbgti
04-18-2004, 10:00 PM
Well Matt...my Golf got the worst of the carnage, she is destroyed.

An ITS Civic (he just graduated from the school) spun out exiting ten...Jeff benaugh had no where to go but straight into him, and then his car got sent off spinning (completely airborn) into my side, which promptly tipped me over and spun me around....all four of my wheels are facing a different way, and the roof is crushed in.

Two interesting points:

Got home about an hour ago, unloaded her off the trailer, BADA-BING, she fires right up and purrs like a kitten, so I will transplant everything into a new shell.

This is irony....the guy that spun and caused the entire mess....well at the drivers class on Thursday night, he asked the group for help....his car failed tech due to old belts...I spoke up and said he can borrow my extra pair.....so he was only running do to me loaning out my belts.

As many people saw me today, I am in a very good mood, Jeff and I both immediately walked away from the accident, and that is all I can ask for.

Time to rebuild!

Greg Amy
04-18-2004, 10:06 PM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...I am in a very good mood, Jeff and I both immediately walked away from the accident, and that is all I can ask for.</font>

Ah, damn, what a mess, but I was glad to hear everyone was safe. I was kinda worried there with Alan's car laying on its side; I hear the incident was "interesting". I'm sorry to see what happened to Alan and Jeff Benaugh, not to mention Jeff Lawton having the whole front clip of *his* Rabbit GTi tweaked over by another driver (I'll let JeffL fill in the details).

Yep, cabin fever rared its ugly head today today...


[This message has been edited by grega (edited April 18, 2004).]

Diane
04-18-2004, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by itbgti:
Well Matt...my Golf got the worst of the carnage, she is destroyed.

Alan, I'm sorry to hear that! Isn't this your first race back after last year?

Sorry to hear of all of your mishaps. Hope everyone gets rebuilt soon!

Diane

67ITB
04-18-2004, 11:49 PM
Alan,
Glad to hear that you/everyone is Ok. So I guess now you can pull one of those "spares" out from behind the rental yard.
What was the end result of the ITB race? Did the Blethens get their cars together??? Was my car involved in any of this? ITS/ITA results???
Wish I could have been there, again sorry to hear about the incident.

Matt Bal

dpc
04-19-2004, 08:16 AM
Group 2 (ssm,sm,ssc&ssb) had 43cars on the track at the same time. Lots of new drivers that did very well. good time was had by all. dave

rbt510
04-19-2004, 12:16 PM
Alan,
NHIS has not been good to you.Glad everyone is Okay. Let me know if you need help with building the new car.
Bob

RSTPerformance
04-19-2004, 01:21 PM
Alan-

I never got to talk to you after the race. But I did ask a lot and was told you were ok which made me very very happy. Not sure if you realized but I was the car on yours and Jeff’s tail heading down into turn 10 (somehow I was able to pass about 7 cars going into 6 and I found myself behind you!!!). I saw the whole thing a little closer than I wanted.

When the civic spun I immediately went OMG... as the last two races Jeff's car raced his car and my car have been seriously damaged in accidents together (actually they have been my worst road racing accidents). So I had a little deja vous of another accident. As you know I am rather quick and loose through the turn 9-10 combo and as with you and Jeff I had no place to go either. I went for the only hole, which was UNDER you… I was trying everything possible not to hit Jeff as I watched you in amazement as you cleared the tire wall with the roof facing down. I was in total amazement as I plunged into the tire wall. Jeff’s rear bumper ended up hitting my right rear quarter panel and taking that out, and the tire wall took out my alternator belt. The accident was amazing and scary at the same time. I am thankful for 1) that you and Jeff were OK, 2) I escaped with much less damage than what I could have 3) that you and Jeff will be back THIS SEASON!!!

And moving on to the restart… What a mess…. Unfortunately because I got tangled in the tires in the accident I went basically to the back of the field (35th?). After the mess was cleared up from a back markers view it appeared as though we would go green, when the entire field came to the start finish their was no green flag, nor was their a wave off (the starter just stood their in amazement of all the ITS and ITB cars). There were no flags “double yellows” or any other flags at any station on the track. Apparently the leaders decided that they considered this a wave off, however the back markers and myself did not. I saw no flags and decided, as you should that the track was green. I passed about 25-30 cars by the time I got to turn 3 (where the corner workers were waving frantically to the front drivers telling them to get going because we were under green). Jason Benah followed my pursuit and actually passed me in turn 3 to take the lead for the first time in ITB!!!

Were we in the wrong??? ABSOLUTELY NOT I can remember an event last year where there was a full course caution put out and a half a lap later removed… The leaders were not at start finish but the entire field was to assume that when the flags come down the field is under green. This ruined a lot of people’s races. I have started restarts many times in the back (especially because we run with ITS) and always look at the flag stations rather than the starters stand. In the school (Both days prior to this race) students were preached that no flag means the track is green.

We did make a complaint about how the incident and the stewards did a great job to admitting their was a miscommunication. The starter was supposed to waive the green flag, but didn’t. The corner workers should have waited for the green flag before they took down their yellows, and they didn’t. I hope that this will never happen again.

This unfortunate mistake of the officials probably is what ruined my race. As I had mentioned earlier I lost my alternator belt and the unfortunate long process of re-gridding the field in pit lane killed my battery. I raced as long as I could until the battery just would give any more juice L. I think I could have won the race… but we will just have to go for it next time J. I pulled in 1 lap from the end got out and prepared myself for the victory lap with my brother, I stayed up way to many overnighters the week before not to enjoy that moment.

Stephen Won the ITB race, but not as easily as I had thought… His tire started to go low about 4-5 laps from the end and by the finish it was flat. We ran the victory lap on a basically completely flat tire. On the victory lap he was complaining that their seemed to be something wrong with the car!!! What really figures is last Thursday night my brother and I got in a tad bit of an argument. The Koni suspension we run has not been completely rebuilt yet, so the car had no suspension as of Friday night. Stephen basically gave up and wasn’t going to race. I told him he had to, and after the fight Thursday night on Friday he decided that he would race using suspension from a parts car in the back yard. Friday night the entire crew worked on his car getting the coil-overs installed onto a stock used suspension. That thing sat about 4 inches taller!!! He was about a .7 seconds a lap slower on the used stock shocks and struts, but that was still fast enough for him to win J.

Anyway, I think this will be a great season and I am looking forward to racing with all of you!!!

Raymond Blethen
RST Performance Racing
www.rstperformance.com (http://www.rstperformance.com)

ITSRX7
04-19-2004, 01:46 PM
Funny you should mention the start...I was the lead car during the restart and obviously didn't know why we didn't get a green or a wave off. Figured there was a problem toward the back.

Then in turn 4-5 we see the workers motioning us frantically to get going - so we figured for some reason the track went green...by turn 9 the black flag all was out...

Bottom line for me...as the first car - and having seen no flag, there was to be another try at a clean start. From the back, if the double yellows are down, you assume green and THERE has to be a wave off.

Crazy start to the season, just wish my AFM connector had stayed on. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

JLawton
04-19-2004, 01:53 PM
I had been battling Dave Austin for several laps. On the second to last lap, we ran side by side up from the bowl, through the back. I finally got ahead of him in 10 for fourth. He went wide, tapped me in the rear quarter and I spun to the outside of the track where another car (not sure who) almost ripped the nose off my car. Off to the frame shop.........

------------------
Jeff L
#74 ITB GTi

RSTPerformance
04-19-2004, 02:03 PM
Andy-

We (the back markers) didn't cause a wave off... I was the first one to start passing people I think... I did not pass anyone till I saw that there was no flag at station 1 (pit out). There was a flag at turn 12 (last station before start) so I decided not to pass till I saw start finish. Then I saw no flags at start finish, which would assume a wave off, but then when I saw no flags at station 1, which meant that the track was green, so I went for it. Then coming out of Nascar turn 2 looking into turn 3 I could see the workers trying to get everyone to go, so I continued on. Got tangled up with the VW in turn 3 when I went under him, he didn't see me and turned in, we bumped (we did talk and had a no/fault resolution and shook hands), he spun Jason passed me for the ITB lead and I continued on to the top of the hill where the black flag all was displayed.

There was no wave off, the green flag simply was not shown when it should have, and the corner workers were under the impression the green was displayed, as it should have been.

Raymond

PS: My brother did mention that everyone had their hands up indicating the acknowledgment of a "wave off" however that signaling did not continue to the back of the field as I never saw one hand up.

Greg Amy
04-19-2004, 02:17 PM
Ah, the light bulb fizzles on...

I was #6 in line, and like Andy, figured we had gotten a wave-off (I thought Andy was a tad bit fast out of 12). All the guys up front were waving their hands in the cars indicating a wave-off, all of us backed off, and none of us were racing. I had no clue what the corner workers were trying to tell us with the waving, but I figured maybe the pace car was out again and they wanted us to catch up. I had absolutely no idea until 3 minutes ago why they pulled us back in the pits, I assumed they did it because you guys in the back had gotten jumbled up and they had to get you all sorted out.

Any idea why the starter failed to wave the green? If the starter truly wanted a wave-off why did Race Control call for the dropping of the yellows?

Yeesh, what a mess. I hope we did a debrief on what happened so it can be avoided in the future.

RSTPerformance
04-19-2004, 02:35 PM
http://rstperformance.bizland.com/Opening%20Day%20Regional%2004/DSCN0951.JPG

Jeff's Car

http://rstperformance.com/Opening%20Day%20Regional%2004/DSCN0952.JPG

Alan's Car

http://rstperformance.com/Opening%20Day%20Regional%2004/DSCN0949.JPG

Stephen winnig on his flat tire.

Raymond

[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited April 19, 2004).]

nyracer
04-19-2004, 02:50 PM
So how did the ITS race finish up?

Greg Amy
04-19-2004, 03:43 PM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">So how did the ITS race finish up?</font>

IIRC,
- Jeff Henderson (BMW)
- Nick Leverone (Mazda)
- Robert Driscoll (BMW)
- Ben Philips (Mazda)
- Greg Amy (Nissan)
- Ed Tisdale (BMW)
- and the rest...

Andy was right up there on top, but fell out due to some engine electrical probs.

itracer
04-19-2004, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by grega:
Any idea why the starter failed to wave the green? If the starter truly wanted a wave-off why did Race Control call for the dropping of the yellows?


New starter. First race of the season.

Since I was one of the cars that "took advantage" of the situation, I was not pleased to see the black flag come out.

Once I heard that there was confusion amongst start, the corners, and control, I completely understand why they choose to black flag all. The fact that NO cars were sent back further than their prior pace lap position AND no one was spoken to after the race, leads me to believe that the officials may have felt it was not clear what the rules say.

I was curious as to what the rules say, so last night I poured over the GCR when I got home. I can’t quote it because it is at home, but I feel that there is a really grey area here. The GCR said that the course shall be full course Yellow. I’ll leave it to the rules nerds to sort this out, but I still believe that, due to the green course, we (Raymond and myself) were correct in our drive to the front.

PS Jeff's car (the Orange one) should be back by Pig Roast (July). The fenders were off before we left the track and the doors should be off by tomorrow.



------------------
Jason
ITB 17 (NER SCCA)
VW Scirocco

VWGal
04-19-2004, 04:07 PM
Thanks for the photos, Raymond. I was out of town with the kids (thank god, they would have flipped out had we been there) so I only heard about the incident when I spoke to Jeff last night. THe car doesn't look nearly as bad as I imagined. It won't be fixed for the May event at LRP but we will definitely have it ready for the PIG.

betsey

Tim
04-19-2004, 04:21 PM
Jeff or anyone who is in touch with him, call me, I have two A1 front fenders if you need them. one brand new, light, the other used oem. FREE

tim 203 253 2249

ITSRX7
04-19-2004, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
Andy-

We (the back markers) didn't cause a wave off...
Raymond



Ray,

Didn't mean to infer that your group CAUSED it, just letting you know what I was thinking at the time while I was wondering why the green didn't get thrown. The line was straight and pretty tight.

Bottom line, should have been a wave off.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited April 19, 2004).]

ITSRX7
04-19-2004, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by itracer:

I was curious as to what the rules say, so last night I poured over the GCR when I got home. I can’t quote it because it is at home, but I feel that there is a really grey area here. The GCR said that the course shall be full course Yellow. I’ll leave it to the rules nerds to sort this out, but I still believe that, due to the green course, we (Raymond and myself) were correct in our drive to the front.




Maybe we should debate this so we can all learn.

I submit the course is not green until the green flag is displayed - not when a corner drops the double yellow. It may be commonly accepted that when the corners drop the double yellow that the course WILL GO green but it can't be green until the starter shows the flag. Right?

I was on pit wall for 2 of the 3 run groups during the school all weekend. Seems as if this same thing was demonstrated by White and Sheppard...they bolted from the back without a green in their run groups.....the field was supposed to stay frozen. Isn't this the same situation?

Again, the lack of wave off created the confusion - no blame - just theoretical debate at this point.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

benspeed
04-19-2004, 05:24 PM
I'm no expert, but my thinking is that when the pace car comes out, the green must be shown at start/finish before racing commences. Otherwise it's a waive off. If it's a full course yellow and no pace car, the track goes green once the flags come down, no?

This is a good topic to debate.

Cheers,

------------------
BenSpeed
#33 ITS RX7
BigSpeed Racing
[email protected]
NNJR

dominojd
04-19-2004, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by grega:
IIRC,
- Jeff Henderson (BMW)
- Nick Leverone (Mazda)
- Robert Driscoll (BMW)
- Ben Philips (Mazda)
- Greg Amy (Nissan)
- Ed Tisdale (BMW)
- and the rest...




Greg 5th place not bad. You better start laying back or they won't drop us to ITA next year. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif



------------------
Crazy Joe
#7 ITS pilot

itracer
04-19-2004, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by ITSRX7:
I was on pit wall for 2 of the 3 run groups during the school all weekend. Seems as if this same thing was demonstrated by White and Sheppard...they bolted from the back without a green in their run groups.....the field was supposed to stay frozen. Isn't this the same situation?


It was a school and they (as instructors) did it on purpose to see if anyone followed them... they did.

------------------
Jason
ITB 17 (NER SCCA)
VW Scirocco

tims90rx7
04-19-2004, 06:29 PM
I was in about 12-14 position on the 'restart'. From my position there was no waveoff, nor did I see any hands being raised by those in front indicating that there was one. Everyone seemed to be at neutral speed until 3 where the corner workers were frantically waving arms to speed up. My first thought was that, in fact, the course was green. (it was about that time that cars started screaming by us) By 5 the black flag was out.

As this is my first time back racing in a couple of years I will leave the debate to those who have more relavent experience then I. It would seem prudent that on a restart, as this was, that a green flag from the starter take precident over corner stations to signal that the track is green.

I am glad that everyone involved in the accidents are fine. It makes my wife very happy that the safety features in place allow for those involved to climb out and shake hands.

I had a great weekend and am looking for to Lime Rock.

Tim Estes
#73 ITS

MMiskoe
04-19-2004, 08:59 PM
From a back marker view, the start deserved a wave off, I started on the throttle at 11 in order to keep up even though the flags were still up.

All weekend in the school it was explained that the course is open for passing UNLESS there is a yellow. I was one of the guys screaming into 3, glad it worked out as well as it did, it certainly had disaster written all over it. A worker at turn 2 might have helped.

No green - lift
No yellow at 1 - flat
Look ahead & see everyone is in line - lift
Get passed by 2 or 3 ITB guys & see turn 3 waving arms - Flat & stayed flat until 5.

Glad it came out as well as it did, three bashed cars is no fun, but three guys walking away is what counts.

Greg Amy
04-19-2004, 10:23 PM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...better start laying back or they won't drop us to ITA next year...</font>

No worries: my best lap was still 2 secs slower than the Flatout boys, and 1 sec per lap slower than Anthony's qually laps (how did ITA come out?).

It would have been a hell of an ITA battle, though (heck, it was a fun battle for ITS 4-5-6!) - GA

RSTPerformance
04-19-2004, 11:18 PM
and Anthony was only 2 seconds faster than the rest of the ITA field!!!

Boring ITA race IMO, best thing was seing Dan in the Miata keeping the rest of the Integras less than a half a lap ahead of the real I mean rest of the ITA cars http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Actually the great race in the ITA/ITC race was ITC, all the ITC cars were ducking it out... looks to me like that will be a hard championship to win this year... good luck http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Raymond

Trish
04-19-2004, 11:34 PM
I wish you guys could have heard the corner workers in 3 during that incident. They were yelling at you all to race then when you got the black flag all, Dave Hottle was explaining that the starter was a newbie with no experienced worker helping or guiding. One of you mentioned in a post that the starter just looked in AWE of all the ITS and ITB cars. Well, you ARE an impressive field. Great racing!

RKramden
04-19-2004, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by Trish:
They were yelling at you all to race then when you got the black flag all, Dave Hottle was explaining that the starter was a newbie with no experienced worker helping or guiding.

Dave Hottle has his opinions, but in this case, they are wrong. The starter has been working start for over a year, and is not a "newbie" as you put it.

[This message has been edited by RKramden (edited April 20, 2004).]

JLawton
04-20-2004, 07:56 AM
Besides the confusion on the restart, I was impressed with how fast they got the wreck cleaned up (glad no one was hurt!!) and grid got us sorted out. They did a great job. Overall, I think the day was well run.

------------------
Jeff L
#74 ITB GTi

dickita15
04-20-2004, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by MMiskoe:
From a back marker view, the start deserved a wave off.

uh I don't think I have ever seen a wave off on a single file restart.

mistakes were made on the restart and i guess black flagging and regridding was the right call but from a drivers point of view what are the rules you have to comply with. you can not pass the pace car unless waived by but the pace car was off the course. you can not pass under a yellow but the yellows were dropped. my review of the gcr indicated that a green is may be a mandatory part of restarting but there was no condition to prevent the drivers from racing so, and i hate to say this but, young mr blethen was the brightest guy out there at that moment.
dick patullo

Greg Amy
04-20-2004, 08:59 AM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...young mr blethen was the brightest guy out there at that moment...</font>

Dick, I know that was a hard thing to say; you are a man of great courage. We'll go through liquid therapy soon to help you ease the pain...

http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

ITSRX7
04-20-2004, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by Trish:
I wish you guys could have heard the corner workers in 3 during that incident. They were yelling at you all to race...

We did see these workers telling us to get going...but since there was NO GREEN FLAG, we (at least Nick and I) thought we were just being told to speed up to catch the pace car and not waste anymore time.

I am curious why the workers would think it was green when the green hadn't dropped. So not only did the starter not waive us off but they didn't tell the corners the track wasn't hot...right?

Chaulk it up to some first race rust and look forward to LRP where I will be in the middle of the grid...

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

dickita15
04-20-2004, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by ITSRX7:
[B] I am curious why the workers would think it was green when the green hadn't dropped. So not only did the starter not waive us off but they didn't tell the corners the track wasn't hot...right?
B]

andy
my understanding is that every thing that should of happened on a restart happened except the green flag being waved. the pace car pulled of the stations were told to drop thier yellows just the starter did not waive the flag, i do not belive the intent was every to waive it off although in the car you could not know that, exept when have you ever seen a waive off on a single file restart.
dick

ITSRX7
04-20-2004, 11:06 AM
I don't know about intent but the starter only has a few things to do - and the process of choosing to wave the green flag or not IS THE BIGGEST ONE.

If I had bolted from 10 and had a 10 car length lead coming out of 12 onto the straight, I would have assumed a wave-off would have followed. Just because we have never seen this happen doesn't mean it can't, Right?

Gotta have a green flag. If the track was green, then they wouldn't have brought us back in...

No drivers did anything out of the ordinary, confusion ensued and the Region did what it needed to do to get it straightened out IMHO. Having heard all the sides of the story, it would seem that the miscues came from the starter stand exclusively. If someone wants to debate that the front of the pack or rear of the pack did anything wrong, we should - so we the drivers can get it right in the future.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

itracer
04-20-2004, 11:06 AM
Devil’s advocate here:
Scenario #1:
What happens if the starter is waving the flag with so much enthusiasm that they loose the flag from there hands? They are not going to stop the race for that.

One thing that has not been mentioned (unless I was the only one to see it) is that the starter DID have their finger up for one to go on the PREVIOUS lap.

There is more than one way to indicate a green track.

Scenario #2: Pace car picks up the wrong car as the lead and waves them (more than one) by late in the pace lap, the green flag is thrown while they are still only 1/2-3/4 around the track. Flags drop, they race (green track).

I know that if it happens again (which I doubt it will), it will be more than Raymond and myself charging for the front.

~Jason
Who took the lead in an ITB race for the first time in his career! (But the race results don’t show it)


------------------
Jason
ITB 17 (NER SCCA)
VW Scirocco

ITSRX7
04-20-2004, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by itracer:

One thing that has not been mentioned (unless I was the only one to see it) is that the starter DID have their finger up for one to go on the PREVIOUS lap.

There is more than one way to indicate a green track

~Jason


Jason,

I think we are all trying to learn here so let's continue the good discussion:

I did see the one to go. If we are to assume the track IS green when the one to go comes out AND the pace car moves off the track, should I start racing right from the beginning of 12?

Does the starter then have no authority to waive off a re-start?

I see nothing in the 2004 GCR (sec 7.3) that tells of any other method of a track going green other than the green flag - you may be able to indicate that the track IS green but not that the track HAS GONE green. You guys did nothing wrong IMHO.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited April 20, 2004).]

RKramden
04-20-2004, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by dickita15:
uh I don't think I have ever seen a wave off on a single file restart.


I've done it once (waved off a restart) in the last 15 years. However, it was because of other things going on on the track, not the condition of the pack.

I've also seen it done at Lime Rock when the Pace Car crashed on the front straight just before false grid, and ended up stuck up on the side of the bank in an impact area.

[This message has been edited by RKramden (edited April 20, 2004).]

RKramden
04-20-2004, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by itracer:
Devil’s advocate here:
Scenario #1:
What happens if the starter is waving the flag with so much enthusiasm that they loose the flag from there hands? They are not going to stop the race for that.

This has happened at Lime Rock. No, the race was not stopped.

I have also seen the starter grab the wrong flag and start a race with a blue flag. :-)



Scenario #2: Pace car picks up the wrong car as the lead and waves them (more than one) by late in the pace lap, the green flag is thrown while they are still only 1/2-3/4 around the track. Flags drop, they race (green track).

Never seen nor heard of that happening, ever.
In the one case I know of where the pace car did mess up, it was known almost instantly and corrected before the restart.

[This message has been edited by RKramden (edited April 20, 2004).]

67ITB
04-20-2004, 12:56 PM
Great discussion guy’s. Sounds like a learning experience for all involved.
Would anyone be able to post the ITB results?

Thanks
Matt Bal,

ITSRX7
04-20-2004, 01:04 PM
I will also state this:

None of the drivers I knew of were mad and I am glad the officials took the time to re-grid in the interest of fair-play. The grid guys and girls did a great job as well.

AB

dickita15
04-20-2004, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by ITSRX7:
I don't know about intent but the starter only has a few things to do - and the process of choosing to wave the green flag or not IS THE BIGGEST ONE.


Uh, no disrespect Andy, but that could not be further from the truth. Look up multitasking in the dictionary and you will see a picture of a SCCA starter. from everthing i have learned about the incident there were 2 mistakes made, hey stuff happens. we will all live. non of the drivers in my opinion made any mistake, some just recognized the bizzare siruation and capitalized on it. had the tower not decided to regrid jason and raymond would be hero's. they lost nothing by trying.
dick

Greg Amy
04-20-2004, 02:35 PM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...but that could not be further from the truth.</font>

OK Dick, I'll bite: if the primary job of the Chief Starter is not to start the race, then what is?

RKramden
04-20-2004, 02:41 PM
To all the NER folks,

I'm the chief starter for the National at NHIS in two weeks. If any of you want to visit the starters stand for a race, let me know, and I can make it happen. Then, you can see for yourself what it is all about.

(First 4 respondents only, please.)

gran racing
04-20-2004, 04:41 PM
I'm really glad everyone was o.k. Those car pics don't look so good.

As for the flagging, I'm still a bit confused. Say on a start (not restart) the starter doesn't waive the green flag. If you get to station one and there is no yellow, do you assume it is green? And I thought that you couldn't start passing till the green was shown. Am I wrong here? If not, wouldn't the same theory apply in the NHIS situation?

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

dickita15
04-20-2004, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by grega:
OK Dick, I'll bite: if the primary job of the Chief Starter is not to start the race, then what is?

greg, don't change my words. what andy said was "the starter has only a few things to do" and I think that oversimplifies it. we (the workers running the race) made a couple of mistakes and i want to thank all the drivers in that group for being so good about it.
by the way if you were only 1 second off anthony's time that puts you a half a second faster than anyone else in ITA. you should probably start collecting lead. I know if matt was up for the race it would have been worth a second
dick

ITSRX7
04-20-2004, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by dickita15:
Uh, no disrespect Andy, but that could not be further from the truth. Look up multitasking in the dictionary and you will see a picture of a SCCA starter. from everthing i have learned about the incident there were 2 mistakes made, hey stuff happens. we will all live. non of the drivers in my opinion made any mistake, some just recognized the bizzare siruation and capitalized on it. had the tower not decided to regrid jason and raymond would be hero's. they lost nothing by trying.
dick


Dick,

No disrespect taken! We are all trying to learn.

Notice I said 'the process of throwing the green'. We know that there is a multitude of actions/decisions that go into the decision to start a race.

I guess to close this out, can we agree that even if the starter communicated to the corner workers that the track was goiung green, it isn't green until we see the flag? I think everyone did the right thing including regridding when the course was not indicated green and the front indicated a waive off.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

Greg Amy
04-20-2004, 04:54 PM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...I think that oversimplifies it...</font>

Fair enough (I wasn't trying to be flippant.)

I'd love to take "Ralph" up on his offer, though how about at an upcoming Regional, say LRP? I'm going to be helping out with instructing in three weeks, but if the offer stands (pun intended) I'd like to spend some time at S/F (I used to have Natl F&C and T&S licenses, never made it "up there"...)


...you should probably start collecting lead. I know if matt was up for the race it would have been worth a second
dick

DOH! Hey, he did such a super job setting it up beforehand that I told him he would have been bored all weekend with nothing to do. All *I* had to do was jump in and drive the damn thing...


[This message has been edited by grega (edited April 20, 2004).]

RSTPerformance
04-20-2004, 05:06 PM
I cannot say that if the situation happened again I wouldn't take advantage of it. I think that the actions of the cars that took advantage of the situation are what influenced control to throw the black flag and fix the problem. I agree with how the situation was handled, even though I probably had the worst outcome.

Other things to notice... In the supps there was no regulation to race length, our race was 48 minutes long. I think that whoever noticed this wasn't in the supps and prevented an early checkered deserves a hand. I bet a lot of people expected it to end at 30 minutes.

Also the other thing that this incident did show was how important we depend on our VOLUNTEER corner workers. Like everything else our faults usually show more than our positives, but I would like everyone to take a minute to realize how important they are to providing us a safe place to race.

Thank you;

Raymond

RKramden
04-20-2004, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
Other things to notice... In the supps there was no regulation to race length, our race was 48 minutes long. I think that whoever noticed this wasn't in the supps and prevented an early checkered deserves a hand. I bet a lot of people expected it to end at 30 minutes.


No time limit is the normal case, but because of tracks with very limited time (Lime Rock) we have become used to having a time limit. This point was questioned on the stewards radio net just before the start of the races, and confirmed that there was no time limit. The question was answered before the race started, and most of the workers were on the same page.

On races with a time limit, watching the clocks and figuring out on-the-fly if the race will end based on time or laps and getting the "1" board out at the right time is yet another thing that the starter does.

[This message has been edited by RKramden (edited April 20, 2004).]

racerdrew43
04-20-2004, 08:02 PM
What happened in the ITC race? Results?
Thanks

MK
04-20-2004, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by dominojd:
Greg 5th place not bad. You better start laying back or they won't drop us to ITA next year. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif



I TOLD him he shouldn't use the "X" button 'till NEXT year. Dammit.

16v
04-20-2004, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by racerdrew43:
What happened in the ITC race? Results?
Thanks

Jeff won by 2laps ;-)


Tim K had a problem, I believe Fred won, with Mini Megliola taking second



------------------
Doug :)
NER.org (http://ner.org)
the16v.com (http://the16v.com)
briansgarage.com (http://www.briansgarage.com)

moto62
04-21-2004, 03:49 AM
Originally posted by 16v:
Jeff won by 2laps ;-)


Tim K had a problem, I believe Fred won, with Mini Megliola taking second



I believe the ITC winner was Chris (big) Johnson in his ford Escort.


Original post from Ray B.
Boring ITA race IMO, best thing was seing Dan in the Miata keeping the rest of the Integras less than a half a lap ahead of the real I mean rest of the ITA cars http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Yeah! But that only lasted for the first four laps. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
Ray

R RACER
04-21-2004, 07:48 AM
What is a real ITA car? please explain CLEARLY Raymond when you make a post. Seems like there were a few Integra's in the 16's this weekend, I think you should expect times to drop at all the tracks this year with the new 04's,I just have a few more miles on them , since I had them since Oct of last year.They seem to compliment my car's setup very well, and the other drivers I have spoken seem to agree. Did you have them this weekend? If you would like a used set I would be happy to give you some at lrp, the set I was on this weekend were the ones I ran on the arrc last year, but I'm sure you can get some more time out of them.Email me off line if you would like them. It was great to see everyone after the long winter. Sorry to see a few guys have some early car rebuilding to do already.

------------------
Anthony Serra ITA 99

RSTPerformance
04-21-2004, 09:00 AM
A couple things.... This will be long!

Clarification on what was suppossed to be a wave off:
The starter wanted a wave off because tow trucks and ambulances where still on the track in turn 4 and in 9 repositioning themselves while the lead ITS cars came down the front straight. The starter was not looking at the field in aww. They where looking at the emergency vehicles still on the track. Control did say 1 lap to green and the signal for one lap was givin. The problem came about because normally start or control would signal green flag on the radios. They did not however they also did not say it was a wave off so because the pace car left the track and the previous time by control said 1 lap to green all corner stations assumed that it did go to green. The started decided it was unsafe for a green after the pace car left the front straight for the safety of the safety crews. Good decision, just some confusion with the comunication.

What I would have done:
From my position I would not have gone since no one else was and the field was "not racing". If I was a backmarker I would have gone, however a little more slowly. I was split by Raymond and Jason going into three. They where probably doing 80+ and I was doing 20 in third litteraly swerving warming up my tires. I happen to turn opposite directions when they flew by. I feel as though they and others probably wanted to take full advantage but at the same time made poor decisions to drive so aggresivly. Noone at the front had any idea they where charging up through. They and others took some risks to get to the front and I'm glad in the end it all worked out.

ITS looks like it will be the NER toughest competion class of the year... lots of very fast cars!

ITA Will be interesting as well. ANthony is blistering fast. I for one think that that car is hooked up and handles awsome... I was watching in 3 and one reason anthony is faster is because he is on the gas way sooner than anyone. He is on the gas and probably flat befoer the apex and the thing sticks and goes with little tire spin. You can see a little blue from the tires every few laps but WOW, that car cna handle. Hopefully Jeremy will rebuild and stay up with him. It will be interesting to see what happens at LRP since that track is more momentum than HP/tourque.

ITB Well our feild should be good since we have lot's of new drivers and several drivers that have had the same cars for a few years so they are finally getting fast! I think at least 10 cars have a chance at the championship. I hope that Jeff L, Jeff B, Alan, Paul, and Nat all get there cars fixed soon so I can try and stay up with them the rest of the season... Godd luck guys. 5 Super fast ITB cars DNF in the first race of the year! I hope that trend doesn't continue!

ITC This class only had 4 cars but probably hands down the best race. in the end it was 3 cars battling out and Brian M I'm sure learned a ton in his first IT race. They all where passing several times a lap and never ended up more than a few seconds apart. this is a class that with one mess up you will go from first to last very quickly! If anyone gets a chance watch them it was very enjoyable!

Stephen

RSTPerformance
04-21-2004, 09:13 AM
Anthony-

Just a joke related to all the posts about needed new classes and what not... sorry, didn't want to offend you!!!

I agree with my brother and I think that you have a great handling, well set up car, also I think your driving skills match that car perfectly. You proved that at the ARRC last year, and you have proved it race after race in the Northeast. My comment was more the fact that NONE of the ITA cars have come close to you (except I think Blaney in his CRX) in the last couple years. You are clearly 2 seconds a lap faster than any other ITA car time and time again.

Good Job IMO

Raymond

dickita15
04-21-2004, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
Clarification on what was suppossed to be a wave off: The starter wanted a wave off because tow trucks and ambulances where still on the track in turn 4 and in 9 repositioning themselves while the lead ITS cars came down the front straight.

What I would have done: From my position I would not have gone since no one else was and the field was "not racing".

Stephen

well at least I don't have to agree with both blethens in one thread (just kidding Stephen).
your account of the start is the first I have heard of this. but the best part of this thread is what should the drivers do.
I am still with Raymond and Jason. from a drivers perspective you can not pass under the yellow and you can not pass the pace car. other than that you are racing.
dick

RSTPerformance
04-21-2004, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by dickita15:
well at least I don't have to agree with both blethens in one thread (just kidding Stephen).
your account of the start is the first I have heard of this. but the best part of this thread is what should the drivers do.
I am still with Raymond and Jason. from a drivers perspective you can not pass under the yellow and you can not pass the pace car. other than that you are racing.
dick



I spoke to the cheif steward after the race because I wanted him to here what happened form a drivers perspective. He came back to me at the end of the day and let me know that he spoke to all parties (He didn't give any names, and shouldn't have) He said that it was basically a miss comunication and everyone would involved would make sure it never happens again. Yesterday I had the opportunity to speak to the starter and ask what really happened. Communication was the end result on what will be improved in the future.

I also agree that Raymond and Jason should have passed people but I wnat to make sure that everyone realizes you are taking a huge risk passing 25+cars if the other twentyfive are driving as if it was a wave off. Myself and several others had no idea of the comotion behind us. I guess this reminds us that we should always be checking our mirrors even 30 seconds after what we may think is a wave off. I am just happy only one car got hit out of the situation and not more. It could have been much worse.

Stephen

PS. The best part about people is we all have different views.. keeps life interesting.

dpc
04-21-2004, 08:15 PM
Does anyone know if NE is going to post all of the results for NHIS race. Dick, how did Grant end up? Dave

16v
04-21-2004, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by dpc:
Does anyone know if NE is going to post all of the results for NHIS race.

yup. Just put them online http://www.ner.org/RR/



------------------
Doug :)
NER.org (http://ner.org)
the16v.com (http://the16v.com)
briansgarage.com (http://www.briansgarage.com)

dpc
04-21-2004, 10:03 PM
Very nice, thanks for a great weekend. dave

lateapex911
04-22-2004, 12:02 AM
Am I the only guy in the world that doesn't have the right stuff to run XLS files? http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/frown.gif

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

dominojd
04-22-2004, 06:49 AM
Originally posted by lateapex911:
Am I the only guy in the world that doesn't have the right stuff to run XLS files? http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/frown.gif


I'm in the same boat.



------------------
Crazy Joe
#7 ITS pilot

RKramden
04-22-2004, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by dominojd:

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Am I the only guy in the world that doesn't have the right stuff to run XLS files? http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/frown.gif


I'm in the same boat.



http://www.openoffice.org/

It's free and, compared to Microsoft products, small.

dickita15
04-22-2004, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by dpc:
Dick, how did Grant end up? Dave
7th overall 1st in ITA Lite

16v
04-22-2004, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by lateapex911:
Am I the only guy in the world that doesn't have the right stuff to run XLS files? http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/frown.gif



This should be corrected as soon as I get the Acrobat Creator sw



------------------
Doug :)
NER.org (http://ner.org)
the16v.com (http://the16v.com)
briansgarage.com (http://www.briansgarage.com)

BillW
04-22-2004, 02:01 PM
Another option for viewing Excel files is to downloasd the Microsoft viewer tool:

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details...&displaylang=en (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=4EB83149-91DA-4110-8595-4A960D3E1C7C&displaylang=en)

Tkczecheredflag
04-22-2004, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by 16v:
Jeff won by 2laps ;-)


Tim K had a problem, I believe Fred won, with Mini Megliola taking second


The ITC race shaped up nicely and was fun to watch from the turn 3 after I parked the car. I had blown a head gasket at the end of the first qualifying session after polling the car. With help from Fred White, Lornezo Serra, Dave Brusso,Ken Schielke, Phil Gott, I was able to pull the head install a new gasket and make it out for the race. Held the lead for 5 laps with a couple of good looks from Chris Johnson in turn 3. The car spiked to 250 degrees before I got to turn one of the pace lap. I was hoping to make it half way and pick up a few point but it just didn't turn out to be my day - I finished with a DNF. Fred looked like he was having fun with Brian and Chris ran a good race. Hoping to get the motor back in shape for LRP but it appears that it could be terminal.
Tim Klvana
ITC #11

racerdrew43
04-22-2004, 09:21 PM
Tim, Sorry to hear of the mis-fortune, it was a good effort to get back on track
Nice Job Chris BIG Johnson!
See ya at LRP

moto62
04-23-2004, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by BillW:
Another option for viewing Excel files is to downloasd the Microsoft viewer tool:

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=4EB83149- 91DA-4110-8595-4A960D3E1C7C&displaylang=en://http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/...&displaylang=en (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=4EB83149-91DA-4110-8595-4A960D3E1C7C&displaylang=en)

Thanks for the link BillW. Thats what we were looking for.
Ray

Dreamer
04-24-2004, 09:38 AM
In reading through this thread, I definately see that the IT drivers of NER are an interestingly enthusiastic bunch of racers. The mindset is very positive and a lot of good humor passes through the group. I have noticed the brothers, Blethen, and their Audis have continued to be the cars to watch in ITB. Good brotherly teamwork while remaining totally competitive with one another. Have you guys ever thought about contacting the news media about doing a story on the twin thing in auto racing? You would make interesting subjects to promote racing in NE. It would be fun to have you guys interviewed as well as your competitors. Just a thought for all you guys and gals out there.

lateapex911
04-24-2004, 01:48 PM
: Tounge in cheek mode ON:

"The Brothers Blethen and the Awesome Audis".....

I guess this would fall under the mentality that any press is good press, eh?

: Tounge in cheek mode OFF:

Kidding, kidding!

Not only have the brothers provided some entertaining moments on the track, but they are poised to help the behind the scenes operations as well. Last night, we roped Raymond to help me Race Chair the Lime Rock National in June.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

moto62
04-24-2004, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by Dreamer:
Have you guys ever thought about contacting the news media about doing a story on the twin thing in auto racing? You would make interesting subjects to promote racing in NE. It would be fun to have you guys interviewed as well as your competitors. Just a thought for all you guys and gals out there.

Ohhhh god! Let's not go there. They already have a difficult time getting their helmets on. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/rolleyes.gif
Ray

RSTPerformance
04-24-2004, 07:22 PM
Dreamer-

While we love your comments about us, we do think that most people in the IT community here in the Northeast deserve as much credit as ourselves. They have IOO (In Our Opinion) had as much sucess as we have, we all are great racers together and for the most part really work as a a community to have fun together.

Our "Twin" Relationship certainly has worked well on the track, as we deffinatly work together for sucess, and we have very similar talents, although slightly different ways of showing it. If you are interested more or know of someone who is we certainly wouldn't mind any publicity for ourselves and the SCCA community.

Please e-mail us offline about your idea. We also would be glad to bring you as a guest to any SCCA event. (NHIS is 5 minutes from Laconia, have you eveer been?)


Raymond & Stephen Blethen
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited April 24, 2004).]

dpc
04-24-2004, 09:49 PM
Where is Dick when you need him?????? dave

JLawton
04-26-2004, 07:36 AM
I think Psychology Today would love to do an article on them!! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

------------------
Jeff L
#74 ITB GTi

DaveITB1
04-26-2004, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by JLawton:
I had been battling Dave Austin for several laps. On the second to last lap, we ran side by side up from the bowl, through the back. I finally got ahead of him in 10 for fourth. He went wide, tapped me in the rear quarter and I spun to the outside of the track where another car (not sure who) almost ripped the nose off my car.



After reading your post, I looked back through my video to review the spin. As the VIDEO shows,
[list]The angle of your fender shows that you came across my nose

By the time I hit my brakes, your whole car was across my nose. That is when I caught your rear quarter.

Lastly, the car that came across your nose was a white BMW ITS car. Sorry, I didn't catch a number. I hope this gives a clearer picture of what happened.

http://www.rstperformance.com/Opening%20Day%20Regional%2004/DaveAustinNHISspin.jpg

Dave
ITB#1

JLawton
04-27-2004, 07:47 AM
Not that I want to continue the debate........but I will!!

I have a nice black donut that is on my rear fender that could have been made only by side to side contact. Beleive me, I felt the impact before the spin!! It was probably better that I was out ahead, or we both would have ended up in the grass.

------------------
Jeff L
#74 ITB GTi

DaveITB1
04-27-2004, 08:24 AM
I have a nice black donut that is on my rear fender that could have been made only by side to side contact. Beleive me, I felt the impact before the spin!! It was probably better that I was out ahead, or we both would have ended up in the grass.
[/B]

Jeff, I am in 100% agreement with you. There was side to side contact. The video shows that.

But, the donut on your car couldn't have happened if you were"ahead" of me as your original post suggests. Was the donut caused by my front or rear tire? If the contact occurred as you originally stated, there would have been no mark on your side, but a pushed in rear quarter panel.

Look at my picture again. I slowed down enough to leave you room on the left. There is 1 lane + to the left of my car.

Lastly, I am still reviewing my video to determine who that white ITS BMW was, since he/she isn't fessing up in this thread. If I can determine the number I will share that with you offline. That car clearly didn't brake when you came across the track.

I hope you are back on the track in time for Lime Rock!!

Dave
ITB#1

Jake
04-27-2004, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by dickita15:
7th overall 1st in ITA Lite


LOL! I'm going to have to go after that coveted ITA Lite title at LRP on the 8th! Maybe I should get some letters made up...

[This message has been edited by Jake (edited April 27, 2004).]

ITSRX7
04-27-2004, 10:57 AM
The BMW you speak of is a former NERRC champion who got caught up in the mess. I wouldn't speculate too much on his fault unless you were in his shoes. He is one of the cleanest racers you will meet.

It looks like you guys may have been just out of his site line if he was at 100% coming through turn 10. (My conjecture)

Not placing blame, just pointing out, as you guys have above, that everyone has an interpetation of each situation - even if you are involved. Sometimes it takes video from behind to really figure it out.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

Greg Amy
04-27-2004, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by DaveITB1:
...I looked back through my video to review the spin. As the VIDEO shows...

How about making the whole video available, Dave, instead of just a single frame? That, coupled with the sound, your line, and other points of view, might go a long way towards resolving this public debate...

GregA

RR
04-27-2004, 03:32 PM
Dear Dave ITB 1
This is the white BMW talking. I dont know who you are but you are so out of line I want to vomit. "Why he didn't brake" you ask..are you a F---ing moron, I followed those two cars throughout the backfield watching them bump and rub around the corner down the hill and as they entered the straight(keeping my distance knowing what was in the cards). As they settled on the straight low and off the racing line, off the pace, I went for a SAFE pass. As I was making the pass, they again rubbed, the outside car struck the inside , which in turn set the rabbit into a spin. For your information smartass, both my feet where in (that means one foot on the brake and the other on the clutch in case you dont know). The rabbit slid across the track and ripped my rear end off. Their stupid little battle for second to last place cost me $1600 in repairs and a race next week at Lime Rock. Next time you go blaming fellow racers, do your homework, or better yet close your mouth.

16v
04-27-2004, 04:56 PM
http://the16v.com/SCCA/04/nhis2/images/DSC_7346.jpg

------------------
Doug :)
NER.org (http://ner.org)
the16v.com (http://the16v.com)
briansgarage.com (http://www.briansgarage.com)

ITSRX7
04-27-2004, 05:31 PM
Just for the record, Doug's picture above is NOT the white BMW in question. We are talking about an ITS car in this case.

RJ, let us know if we can help get you back before LRP.

Everyone has their interpretations! I also know Jeff L. (yellow VW) is a clean driver. We need some video http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

16v
04-27-2004, 10:46 PM
correct Andy, the rest of the images in the series show the S car already in the grass to avoid the incident, then the contact with the Rabbit in the LR.

The incar must be pretty intense

Greg Amy
04-28-2004, 09:35 AM
(chirp...chirp...chirp...chirp...)

DaveITB1
04-28-2004, 07:01 PM
Thanks for the suggestion Greg and Andy,

I'll try to capture the video segment, starting from the downhill. Do quicktime mpeg's play on this BB? If not, I can email it to interested parties.

Dave

16v
04-28-2004, 11:36 PM
Dave if you would like to email me the mpg or qt file I will host it on my site

------------------
Doug :)
NER.org (http://ner.org)
the16v.com (http://the16v.com)
briansgarage.com (http://www.briansgarage.com)

Nick Leverone
04-29-2004, 12:03 AM
I have one other thing to add to this mess, I meant to find the driver of the #1 ITB car. I am not blaming you for my lack of winning the ITS race that rests solely on my shoulders, but you need to know when the leaders are coming through. I also am sympathetic to everyone's race on the track and don't like to effect anyone's race as we come through the field, but you greatly effected my position by clearly not seeing me passing you exiting turn six. I could tell you couldn't see that I was up to your door as we were approaching the left side curb at the tree and instead of being forced to run all four wheels off the track or have contact I hit the brakes hard consequently allowing the second place driver to get by. So I ask in a nice way, just be aware of what is going on around you, and I know this was a tough situation because you were in your own race with two other cars when we approached but you have to see us.

The corner workers do a great job waving that blue flag with a yellow strip and they were waving it.

Lastly, the ITS BMW you speak of is one of the best racers I have had a chance to run with. He runs clean and smart as do most of the ITS guys at the front of the pack.

------------------
Nick Leverone
04 ITS Mazda Rx-7
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Nick Leverone
04-29-2004, 12:15 AM
I have one other thing to add to this mess, I meant to find the driver of the #1 ITB car. I am not blaming you for my lack of winning the ITS race that rests solely on my shoulders, but you need to know when the leaders are coming through. I also am sympathetic to everyone's race on the track and don't like to effect anyone's race as we come through the field, but you greatly effected my position by clearly not seeing me passing you exiting turn six. I could tell you couldn't see that I was up to your door as we were approaching the left side curb at the tree and instead of being forced to run all four wheels off the track or have contact I hit the brakes hard consequently allowing the second place driver to get by. You then forced me into the cones before pit in as I passed you heading onto the front straight. So I ask in a nice way, just be aware of what is going on around you, and I know this was a tough situation because you were in your own race with two other cars when we approached but you have to see us.

The corner workers do a great job waving that blue flag with a yellow strip and they were waving it.

Lastly, the ITS BMW you speak of is one of the best racers I have had a chance to run with. He runs clean and smart as do most of the ITS guys at the front of the pack.

------------------
Nick Leverone
04 ITS Mazda Rx-7
www.flatout-motorsports.com

DaveITB1
04-29-2004, 11:01 AM
Hey Nick,

I found Jeff after the race, but didn't find you b/c I wasn't sure which car it was. I try to follow the racers etiquette to find racers after an event about a bump, a cutoff, or even a great move. I remember that corner, and I'm sorry. There were a couple of ITB's on my tail at the time and I was battling them for 3rd position. For the past 3 years that I've raced in this group , I've yielded to oncoming ITS cars when possible. (I even wave the Blethens and the Volvos - and they are in my class). Prior to ITB, I drove in E-Prod and had to contend with GT and AS cars coming up on me 2-3X's as fast. I, unfortunately, am cursed with a race budget that gives me a car that runs midpack in ITB. But I'm OK with that. I've never intentionally impeded leaders of a race. I've always been happy to race against that group of cars that are about as fast as me. That, in my interpretation, is Club Racing. As for the white ITS BMW, I agree that he is a clean racer - I've never said otherwise. In the few races when I had to sit out a race due to a break in qualifying, I'd watch our race and root him on to victory (no offense, but he is a fellow BMW racer). Nick, I look forward to meeting you in person in the near future. I got into racing for the thrill and to meet like-minded people that share the passion.

Dave

Greg Amy
04-29-2004, 11:23 AM
On the other hand, I'd like to tip my hat to Tim Mullen, who went literally out of his way to let me by.

I was pedaling my little toy car as hard as I could, with a BMW E36 chasing my tail like a sailor on shore leave. Tim did a great job of self-preservation by stepping aside and letting me through. I'm sure the nearly-out-of-control squealing of my tires had a little to do with that, but oh well...

Unfortunately, he let the BMW through, too, but I get that's only fair...

Greg

moto62
04-30-2004, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by grega:
[B]I was pedaling my little toy car as hard as I could, with a BMW E36 chasing my tail like a sailor on shore leave.Greg[/B

Future 'A' car? Righhhhttt http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/rolleyes.gif
http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by moto62 (edited April 30, 2004).]

DaveITB1
04-30-2004, 07:05 AM
Here is the contact, as captured by my video, starting from the downhill.

My thanks to Doug from the16v.com for hosting it on his site.

http://the16v.com/media/ner/NHIS10spin.mov

Dave

Greg Amy
04-30-2004, 08:58 AM
Future 'A' car? Righhhhttt http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/rolleyes.gif
http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

Yeah, this coming from a guy that used to regularly whoop-ass on Hondas with his "uncompetitive" Mazda RX-7...

http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

Greg Amy
04-30-2004, 11:32 PM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Here is the contact, as captured by my video...</font>

Hi, Dave. I'm assuming you're looking for some feedback, as evidenced by your re-post on the other thread. I wasn't gonna comment, mostly because I wanted someone else to step into the quicksand first, but I'll be the first to volunteer to endure the ensuing s**tstorm.

First, please note that the video is of extremely poor quality; and second, I do not have a good sound card on my notebook, so I listened to it "muted".

Summary: at best it appears to be a racing incident. Judging by your lines through the top of the hill, you were aware that Jeff's Rabbit was there and modified your line accordingly. You guys were apparently side-by-side throughout that whole run.

However, at worst it appears from what little I can see in that poor-quality video that you were possibly beginning to track out towards the left edge of the track exiting the right hand turn (10?) instead of pinching it in to accomodate a car on the outside. Assuming Jeff was still there then you may not have left him racing room (or were hoping he'd lose momentum in the marbles on the outside). Regardless of who initiated the contact (either you drifting out into him or he pushing you over to the inside) you can tell the moment you made contact because your yaw rate changed quickly and you began to rotate to the right "faster" (plus you can see the video angle jump up for a fraction of a second at about time mark 8.8s). Right after that the Rabbit popped into view and off she goes.

It also seems possible that Jeff was slightly "in front", because if he was door-to-door to you - or slightly behind you - there's no reasonable way I can think of that he would have spun across your nose. Even if you were the slightest bit in front of him when you touched, it seems it would have punted him to the outside of the turn, not tiddly-winked him across the front of your nose to the inside of the track. Put another way, your point of contact (with whatever body panel that was) was behind his center of gravity. You rotated him clockwise, not counterclockwise.

I'll reiterate this: I think it was a racing incident. I think you guys were duking it out, and I don't think that either of you intended to cause harm or foul. I'd suggest you call it even, learn from it, and look forward to the next event.

Disclaimer (like I really need this): I was not there, I did not see the incident, I'm only Monday-morning-quarterbacking based on info posted in this thread. My family heritage is in no way responsible for these opinions.

GregA, who's wondering if he shoulda just turned off the computer and gone to bed...


[This message has been edited by grega (edited April 30, 2004).]

16v
05-01-2004, 12:00 AM
I've seen a LOT of crappy incar clips and you've complained twice about the quality of his video in the same post, that is pretty weak. Not everyone out there is using DV cams.
It plays, you can view it over and over if you need.

Dano77
05-03-2004, 08:19 PM
According to the last fastrak I read. If pcas are approved,your "un-competitive" nissan will move to ita.Correct? Dont start the my car is not a winner complaint when your beating the winner... The face of ita will change drastically next season. better re-build my IT7 car. Dan.