View Full Version : Reserved paddock @ LRP

11-17-2003, 01:56 PM
in discussions with racers and regional exec's at this past weekends mini convention the topic of paddocks at LRP came up.
Some people felt that there were issues that needed to be addressed, one was the flooding, the other being over crowding and last team/crew parking.

an idea was propossed to rent reserved / preffered paddock spaces out to competitors.

for a fee your club would guarantee you a marked measured space in a premium area ( front straight along fence-on concrerete pad...) where ever you prefer! no one other competitor would be able to encrouch on you space.

what do you think this is just an idea and the different regions are looking for input.

thanx brian mushnick
2004 road race chair ner

Greg Amy
11-17-2003, 02:15 PM
So, those that choose to not put up extra money over their entry fee will be automatically forced into the sub-standard, over-crowded, muddy areas?

Aren't the concrete pads supposed to be a flat, level community area for all competitors to be able to setup their cars? I know a lot of competitors don't realize this, but they are "setup pads" aren't they?

Will that revenue be used to improve the poor areas of the paddock so that competitors will not be forced to park in the mud or will those competitors on a tight budget be forever damned to oblivion?

How will the reserved parking areas be enforced? Will there be a new regional position of "parking admin", a person that will be there the day prior to, and early in the morning of, every event to organize and arrange it?

I don't see this in the same light as renting garage spaces. In cases such as Watkins Glen each competitor is offered an above-standard paved paddock space, albeit uncovered. Renting a garage space is a luxury over and above the standard. In the case of LRP, not every competitor is guaranteed a reasonable standard. The late-comers risk being forced into a sub-standard paddock space, motivating them to arrive as early as possible. That motivation gives people equal access to the standard spots.

What you are suggesting is the ability to "buy" the standard spaces, regardless of arrival time, making the motivation a financial one. In effect, you are suggesting that the regions take financial advantage of a poor situation by removing the first-come, first-served arrangements.

I just don't see this as a pleasant - or realistic - idea...

[This message has been edited by grega (edited November 17, 2003).]

11-17-2003, 04:38 PM
I don't know greg. I certainly wouldn't want them renting out the alignment pads that are scattered around the track, as I have enough issues with people using them to paddock on already. However, this might not be a bad way for them to raise the money to fix up the paddock, I don't think its a bad idea, as long as there was still plenty of decent space left.

Imagine this: Lime Rock (not the SCCA) marks off a few spaces, some for semis and some for smaller trailers. Then rent them out on a weekend by weekend basis. Then they take the money and put it into a REAL drainage/paddock improvement system...I think the PCA and BMWCCA guys, as well as some of the guys with real low sports racers would be happy to pay for those areas, and the rest of us would be getting the same mediocre spaces we ususally get.

Seems like a decent revenue stream for them...and out mediocre spaces would get better incrementally over time.

BTW, could we do something to put up signs or something telling people NOT to park on the alignment pads...

NER SM #02

gran racing
11-17-2003, 05:33 PM
I have to agree with Greg's points. So, I should have to pay extra money to get a grass spot with out air, shelter, ect. Oh, maybe they will mow my spot the day before the event?

And why shouldn't the track pay to bring the paddock spaces up to an adequate level themselves without us having to rent spaces to pay for it directly? These fees should be included in the entry fees and other revenue income made by the track. I am also guessing that the paddocks may be updated a bit with the additional series coming to LRP.

I would also like to see something done about the registration parking area - the drainage is horrible. Any time it rains, it is an adventure up there!

And don't get me wrong, I definately want to support Lime Rock. It is a wonderful track and want to see it stay for many, many years to come.

11-17-2003, 05:53 PM
The rumors I hear everytime we get into a bitch session about the LRP paddock (when wet) is that the track has been VERY limited in it's building/improvment requests because of the local community who wants them out anyway.

Could be bunk...could you imagine LRP with NHIS garages? HEAVEN ON EARTH!!!


Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region

11-17-2003, 06:09 PM
No first come first serve means that there is no reason to arrive early... Looks to me like this could have a severe impact on registration...

I don't think that this is a way to fix the problem, I think we would be better off to have "Paddock Nazis" as they do at the ARRC as well as at Pocono making sure that people only take enough room for what they need +/- 2 feet http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

Raymond "I'll be happy to sleep in a little more" Blethen
RST Performance Racing

[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited November 17, 2003).]

11-18-2003, 11:26 AM
Brian writes:

an idea was propossed to rent reserved / preffered paddock spaces out to competitors.


I'm all for it. Just as I shell out for a garage at NHIS, I would shell out for dry socks at LRP!

11-18-2003, 01:06 PM
I agree they need to do something at LRP. The NARRC event was a disaster in the paddock.
Someone has to start limiting enforcing what vehicles get into the paddock in the first place. Most "Crew" and friends should be leaving their vehicles up top. Besides those extra cars, the tiny area I had was made even smaller by a host of other non-racer vehicles let in Friday after registration was closed.
There was a time when the roads were not even paved, so things are getting better. If they could just make the roads a car lenght wider on each side and make the center driving lane a no parking zone there would be plenty of dry land for the racecars.

Paying for reserved real estate just to park is a bad idea. Now garages is a different story....


[This message has been edited by rbt510 (edited November 18, 2003).]

11-18-2003, 08:29 PM
no reserved paddock for me. dave

11-18-2003, 11:06 PM
Some random thoughts.....

How much does Lime Rock charge per weekend?? Somewhere in the $20,000 range. That's a lot of thousand dollars. And they are rented out for a lot of weekends.

It is the bumpiest track we run on locally, and maybe nationwide, with the exception of Sebring and Nelson Ledges, and that place isn't in the same league.

The showers suck, and are getting worse.

The bathrooms are pretty sketchy as well.

The A paddock is dusty in the dry, and muddy in the wet, and the B paddock is good in the dry, but an absolute lake in the rain....but it's advantages are nulified by it's distance from the action.

Electrical power in B paddock is what...2 outlets??

The public address system has little on a tin can and strings.

That said, I love the place. But I have major issues with the visible paddock improvements of late, or should I say lack of improvements. Yes, years ago, there was a general upgrade, which included replacement of some inadequate buildings, landscaping, as well as the paving of paddock B access roads. But keep in mind that the paving was likely performed more for the benefit of the Skip Barber school than for our comfort and convienience.

I'm not sure why burying some perforated pipes and dry wells to create actual drainage is such a big deal.

Now ...I'm unclear about the revenue stream from this....is the SCCA going to be the collector, and LRP the reciever? How much? Who regulates? And...the big question...what's in it for us, the guys who don't pony up for the semi decent spots?? If LRP is the reciever of the funds, what guarantee do we have that they will actually make improvements that matter to us??

To me, this whole concept reminds me of the go first class or be treated like cattle decision that we face when flying!

IF LRP is sincere in their desire to upgrade the facility, I propose that there is no selective surcharge for better spots, but that ALL entrants from ALL clubs are charged an extra fee that will go to a fund, and that the account be an open book. When the required amount is reached, the surcharge disappears, and the improvemnts are performed. BUT, I would want to know what improvements would be performed, the cost of them and the expected time frame of the surcharge before I would agree to such a plan.

In the mean time, I do see a huge need to reel in some of the more aggresive "space hogs". The folks who pull up parrallel to the fence in their huge motorhome with the big enclosed trailer and proceed to take up 4 teams worth of space for their one car.

Controlling the use and abuse of space would go a long way to ease 75% of the issues.

Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

11-19-2003, 04:52 AM
I Hate the mud at LRP and I'm certainly not going to pay for it. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/mad.gif

11-19-2003, 09:01 AM
I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. Here is how I have dealt wiith the problems of LRP and space:

First - the way I deal with the teams taking multiple spots for one car is simple. I never actually paddock and unload. I keep moving my rig when the security people tell me to move off the asphalt. It's not bad I have figured out a system to harness my canopy to the truck, leave the trailer attached. I quickly fold my chairs and presto we move. It looks a like something out of the Beverly Hillbillies but it works. I'm thinking about marketing the canopy hanress.

Second - For wet days I just stop at Lew White Appliance on Rt-7 and pick up a large refrigerator box to keep me dry while working on the car. They appear to be very absorbant and durable lasting for two track dates, as they dry well betweeen dates.

Third - I reminesce my days in the military. Back in the "good old days" a cold shower was refreshing and invigorating. My complaint about the bathrooms is the we have stalls for the toilets. I was hoping they would remove the stalls and promote more fellowship for our great SCCA Club.

Finally - One of my fondest memories was the day I took the children for a swim in the pond, by the run off area just past the short chute, prior to the esses just in front of the big spectator hill, behind Station 4. The boys really enjoyed the swim. The odor of the water was a bit stinky but we had a blast until the security people chased us away. Is there a chance we could make arrangements to enjoy the swimming hole on a regular basis.

Pesrspective is everything. Is the glass half full or half empty. I guess the first thing we need to do is get a glass.

Tim Klvana
ITC #11

[This message has been edited by Tkczecheredflag (edited November 19, 2003).]

11-19-2003, 10:43 AM

not to squash your idea anymore that we already have but...

If we could "rent" a spot it would sort of stink to rent a spot, then find when you go to the track that it was under 4" of water. The last race at LRP we picked a dry spot, I woke up and opened the door from the truck stepped out and my toes disappeared http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/frown.gif.

On the other hand I have always felt that going to the races is like going camping with a daytime activity... (We are not rich and do not spend the dough on a hotel, most of the time) Anyway when you go camping you reserve a space. Wow, now I sort of like your idea, as it would make things a little more organized. If you don't reserve a space you would be assigned a spot at registration correct? At that same LRP event we had 4 cars entered and our only dry spot was taken as we were on-track in the first race group.... errr that was annoying but what can ya do, we let him stay dry and we all got wet!!!

Here is a shot of Dad after taking a spill; we just made the best of it!!!


Raymond Blethen

PS: Brian I want to thank you for taking the time to think of ideas to make our experiences with SCCA better. You have really stepped up to the plate over the last couple years and it has not gone unnoticed. Thank you.

[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited November 19, 2003).]

11-19-2003, 12:42 PM
You guys/girls make me laugh.

there are many purposes to renting prefered spots.

1. Organize and structure parking in the crowded LRP paddock.

2. Generate alternative revenue streams in order to help keep race entries down.

3. (don't get mad) reward those people who are willing to pay extra, with prefered reserved parking.

If you did not want to pay that would be fine. any space that was not reserved would be availible, you would not be moved to a mud bowl in the cow pasture next door. how ever just because you get there early would not mean you would have the run of the paddock, reserved for a fee means just that unfortunatley there are people who are willing to pay extra for extra benefits just as there are people who can afford to spend more on race cars and transporters.

This is not a plan that has been implemented just an idea that has been thrown around. all the regions are working with the track to solve some of the problems that exist. these things take time and comprimise, drainage has been discussed with the track and hopefully some repairs will be scheduled for the spring. please keep in mind that last year we had record rain fall through the season this did not help either, next year it could be dry? who knows..

Tim you are the man LOL

Brian Mushnick NER

gran racing
11-19-2003, 08:32 PM
If we have to start paying for a dry / decent pad space, where does it stop? Should we have to pay to go to the bathroom? Oh yeah, that's right we already are expected to tip in addition to the $200 entry fee. I've also heard rumors about the idea of reserving the picnic tables during the lunch hour.

Really though, why shouldn't everyone be entitled to a decent spot? I'm not talking about great spots, but decent. This cost should be spread out by everyone that races at the facility.

11-19-2003, 10:24 PM
Thanks Brian for seeing the humor. Seems like it could be a long winter.
Tim Klvana
ITC #11

11-19-2003, 11:03 PM
Tim, you missed the BEST swimming hole! (It looks as though Mr. Blethen beat you to it....) Actually I remember swimming in the stream just on the noth side of the straightaway bridge one super hot pro Racing weekend. But make sure Ken Payson doesn't happen by to do some of his usual surf casting for rainbows, or your kids could lose an eye!

And lets remember to charge Ken for all those free fish he's been catching for his "free lunch"!

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> \"you would not be moved to a mud bowl in the cow pasture next door. how ever just because you get there early would not mean you would have the run of the paddock, reserved for a fee means just that unfortunatley there are people who are willing to pay extra for extra benefits\" </font>

the problem, Brian, is that the only spaces left after renting the good ones suck. I can't think of many paddock spots at Lime Rock that I would free associate with "extra benifits"!

The concept strikes me as elitist, and I have a hard time wanting to opay for a space that "sucks less"!

So, what are the revenue stream details??

Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

11-21-2003, 05:32 PM
interesting discussion as we are having the exact same one here in wdcr about summit point. the weekends are usually so crowded that people have started lining up to get in for a weekend event on thursday morning. this wastes huge amounts of people's time that they could have spent at work instead of sitting in their tow vehicle for 10 hours waiting for the gates to open. reserved paddock parking would eliminate much of this problem, and would save racers money they can spend on racing....


11-21-2003, 08:33 PM
I am against reserved paddock spaces. First of all, with entry fees $200 for one day events we don't need added expenses. And what happens when the person with the reserved space can't make the race? A prime space left empty while someone else gets stuck. Second, why should we give extra money to Lime Rock to fix drainage? They don't donate the Track, we pay to rent it. It is their business. Here are my suggestions for the paddock:
1)Only one space per race car.
2)Only one support vehicle per car allowed in the Paddock. I have seen three and four cars for one race car.
3)Put the car number on the Paddock pass. When one pass is isuued at registration for a car, don't issue any more to that car.
4)No motor homes parked arond the perimeter near the fences. They have to be parked sideways and take up several spaces.
5)No blocking off spaces for cars that are arriving latter or the next day.
6)Make these part of the sups and actually enforce them.
These suggestions won't help with the drainage, but they will free up space and cut down on congestion in the paddock.

ITC #0

11-26-2003, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by Tkczecheredflag:
I was hoping they would remove the stalls and promote more fellowship for our great SCCA Club.

Tim you are a sick man http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/tongue.gif

Doug :)
the16v.com (http://the16v.com)
briansgarage.com (http://www.briansgarage.com)

12-01-2003, 12:54 AM
OK, I have to reply to this thread. I went to my first race at LRP back in '66. And it was a real step up from the Bridge. Went back for a Vintage race in 2001, and guess what, the rest rooms were still the same trench at the bottom of the wall!

But I really wanted to tell you a story about renting space, paddock or garage. My home track now is Mid-Ohio. If you watch any of the pro races televised from MO, you know they have garages, which they used to rent on SCCA weekends. I say used to because since the recession, fewer teams could afford the extra bucks. So, what did the track do? They increased the track rental to the clubs and said that the club could rent the garages and collect the money (and of course, absorb the loss if they did not rent them all!).

So, a middle of the road solution would be moderate improvements, clearer sups, and better inforcement, IMHO.

PS, at the vintage event, I ran into a gentleman who lived in New York City, a few blocks from me, who I rode up to LRP with on my first trip. (Ever do 100 up the Taconic in a Renault R8 with a full cage?)

12-08-2003, 01:16 PM
I haven't been on this for a while but I wanted to share my opinions as well. I think that most will not pay for parking. However if we did so some type of reserved parking where the money got directly refunded equally to each car entry that didn't reserve spots then I am all for it. Keep the entries the same since I'm sure limerock has our entries up somewhat for future improvments and some type of fund. If not and they are just using our entries to pay for past debt then we need to think seriously about the managment team and if that track will be open in a few years. This way those with the money can basically get what they want and those of us that don't have money will get what we want... Money1 even if in the end all I get is 2 bucks then I'm all for it. I wouldn't mind giving someone a great spot for a decent spot if they bought me a coffee in the AM!

Also not to pick on Spiro13 but I had a few descrepencies. I hope you don't mind my opinion I tried to give you my reasons if I disagreed.

Originally posted by Spiro13:

1)Only one space per race car.
Yup 2 car widths wide to fit rig/trailer and your car next to it. Unless the space is deep enough to put the car behind it.

2)Only one support vehicle per car allowed in the Paddock. I have seen three and four cars for one race car.[/QUOTE]
As long as you are including the trialer open or not.

3)Put the car number on the Paddock pass. When one pass is isuued at registration for a car, don't issue any more to that car.[/QUOTE]
Not neccassary if they just checked for passes. Everyone only gets one per car as it is.

4)No motor homes parked arond the perimeter near the fences. They have to be parked sideways and take up several spaces.[/QUOTE]
most don't but if they do we should all say something to them! unless of course they have several cars. like motion dynamics.

5)No blocking off spaces for cars that are arriving latter or the next day.[/QUOTE]
This is your only terrible idea. This sport is for fun and we should be allowed to hang out with our friends. Several people also share tools. and some like myself have family members that are coming later. traditionally I can get to the track at least a day before my brother and father.

6)Make these part of the sups and actually enforce them.[/QUOTE]
We probably need to find a volenteer for this. I know that I wouldn't becasue it will be tough to make any friends.


12-31-2003, 03:07 PM
Coming from a tiny track, with an even smaller paddock, let me share an approach from Waterford Hills, which seemed to work:

We used a 'nominal' fee ($75, which went to the club, not the track) for assigned ANNUAL paddock spots, and limited the number of assigned spots; key thing, we had a 'general admission area, but it is called 'swamp' - you make the logical leap of faith. The key aspect: we marked the pavement specifically at widths - each person had a paddock number, and the spot was 20x18, for tow vehicle (trailer OR tow, not both!) and race car - NO EXCEPTION. That is enough room to paddock! The key thing I noticed this past year at Lime Rock was poor usage of space, total lack of policing excess vehicles, and not really a lack of good, quality paddock. Drainage will always be an issue when you look for a large FLAT region separated with pavement. Sorry!

Dave Youngren