driver's side glass

[troyt]

I'm seeking clarification from the '05 GCR. I'm new to ITS, so indulge me with a question that has probably been beaten like the proverbial dead horse.
Can you remove the driver's side window glass and mechanism WITHOUT having to use the "gutting clause" from building a bulging NASCAR style roll cage?
Thanks, Troy

[jc836]

NO

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Grandpa's toys-modded suspensions and a few other tweaks
'89 CRX Si-SCCA ITA #99
'03 Dodge Dakota Club Cab V8-Patriot Blue gonna tow

[Greg Amy]

No.

[Bill Miller]

No

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Joe Harlan]

No!

[Mike Guenther]

Yes..............but its illegal. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

[lateapex911]

No.............

BUT...read the definition of what is considered "NASCAR" door bars carefully...it doesn't match many preconceived notions..

I think that, even if the door bar is already welded in, that I would rip it out and redo it in order to gut the door. It's big freebie in the rules if you ask me.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[turboICE]

On a related topic, I have written to request that NASCAR door bars be permitted on the passenger side.


In support of Performance Driving Experience (PDE) events, permit these classes to utilize NASCAR style door bars on the passenger side.

3.1.3.3. in the TTR requires "a passenger seat with the same safety equipment as the driver."

A NASCAR style door bar is a significant piece of the driver's safety equipment. As the TTR currently stands my ITA prepared car could not be used in a PDE because the driver seat has NASCAR style door bars and the passenger seat does not.

Rather than changing the TTR rules to permit a lower standard for the passenger door bars than the driver side has - the T, SS and IT rules should be improved to permit the use of NASCAR style door bars on the passenger side of the vehicle.

With Regards,
Ed

I think they are already permitted in touring anyway, but I have a friend who wants to use my car for a PDE but can't since the passenger side does not have the same safety as the driver.

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Ed.
240SX ITA

[This message has been edited by turboICE (edited May 03, 2005).]

[lateapex911]

The trip up with the request is the vagueness of the term "safety equipment"..



3.1.3.3. in the TTR requires "a passenger seat with the same safety equipment as the driver."

Who decides what is and what isn't "safety equipment"? A logical premise, reading the wording, might be that since "a passenger seat" doesn't say an "identical" passenger seat, that it can be anything. And, therefor, if IT can be anything, it must not be considered part of the term "safety equipment", ergo, neither are the door bars.

I can see that case being made very effectively to allow the car's use as a driver ed car.

Conversly, would it better for neither door to have them???? (The inverse logic suggests that the car would acceptable at that point for driver ed usage..)

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited May 04, 2005).]

[Bryan Watts]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Conversly, would it better for neither door to have them???? (The inverse logic suggests that the car would acceptable at that point for driver ed usage..)

For that matter, does anyone know for sure that the standard 2-bar "NASCAR" bars really provide more protection than a good X-brace with gussets? Let's be honest, none of the NASCAR bars in IT cars are built like the bars you see in NASCAR (at least 4 laddar rungs with multiple connecting bars between).

In my mind, bent bars can simply bend inwards in an impact just as much as they were bent outwards. Whereas, for an X-brace to fail, the welds must either break or the bars must actually stretch along their length.

Most T-bones we see in IT cars are in braking zones at 80 mph or less between fairly "light" cars...compared to NASCAR where 3400 pound cars hit each other at 160+ mph.

I actually know an IT car builder who is trying to track down a few junk cars to run an informal test to compare the two type door bars. We've just got to find the test driver who's willing to drive the impact car. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Bryan Watts (edited May 04, 2005).]

[ddewhurst]

Ed, you can do GCR type NASCAR bars in the passenger side doors today. You can not gut the door or glass.

Bryan Watts, are you approx 25 years young & the guy who raced WKA Karts in the past.

Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David

[This message has been edited by ddewhurst (edited May 04, 2005).]

[Andy Bettencourt]

Ed,

I think knowing that the NASCAR bars are optional in IT should rule out the neccessity for them on the passenger side.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[Knestis]

I tend to believe what I think Mr. Watts is saying. There was a great conversation here some time ago and good points were made on both sides of the question.

K

[turboICE]

1. I can understand how an organization like this creates vague and internally inconsistent rules, believing at the time that they are neither. But I would like to believe that they would correct it when it is identified to them.

2. NASCAR bars are defined:

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">If installed, shall consist of one or more sidebars that intrude into the door cavity and connect the main hoop to the front hoop</font>

Clearly style only means that a sidebar intrudes into the door. There is no requirement that they meet NASCAR build specs.

3. I actually see no allowance made for IT to use NASCAR style door bars on the passenger side. Beginning with SS as the base of IT cages, SS only permits the driver side tube to enter the door, no allowance is made for the passenger side, so it is not permitted. The additional IT safety rules do not add any permission for a tube to enter the passenger door.

Passenger NASCAR style door bars are not permitted and even if they were they could not be installed without gutting and removal of the window glass.

(Post is in response to several others)

[This message has been edited by turboICE (edited May 04, 2005).]

[ddewhurst]

turboICE, please read ITCS rule 17.1.4.D.10.a.5. Any number on additional reinforcing bars are permitted within the structure of the cage,

Your defination of how far a GCR NASCAR bar/bars extends towards the door area & the defination of someone else may be two different dimensions.

Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David

[Bryan Watts]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Bryan Watts, are you approx 25 years young & the guy who raced WKA Karts in the past.

I'm exactly 25, but I've never raced karts. I, like many, wish that my dad and I had known about them when I was younger. I have raced a little bit of Star Mazda in the past...mostly getting beaten up by guys younger than me who had been in karts. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

I'm a Spec Miata guy for now (well I've got the car, but haven't had time/$$ to race yet this year). Built an ITS E36 back in 2000, but ended up BMW CCA Club Racing it instead. Just lurking around here now, as I may be putting something together for ITS later this year or next...maybe by the ARRC's.

[This message has been edited by Bryan Watts (edited May 04, 2005).]

[turboICE]

David, I am pretty sure that intruding into the door cavity is pretty unambiguous regarding what is and what is not a GCR NASCAR type bar. By intruding into the cavity it by definition has to occupy space previously occupied by some part of the interior door structure.

I am familar with the clause you refer to and I do not believe that tubing extending outside of the plane of the main hoop and front hoop would be considered "within the structure".

But then again this isn't even why I posted, my belief is they are not permitted and I have asked that they be permitted. If they already are permitted then the committee will be sure to point that out to me in Fastrack.

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Ed.
240SX ITA

[ddewhurst]

Bryan, enjoy the site & enjoy your racing as you get to it.

***On a related topic, I have written to request that NASCAR door bars be permitted on the passenger side.***

***I am pretty sure that intruding into the door cavity***

Ed, I didn't say anything about intruding into the door cavity.


Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David

[turboICE]

You didn't say anything about intruding but the GCR does.
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Your defination of how far a GCR NASCAR bar/bars extends towards the door area & the defination of someone else may be two different dimensions.</font>In relation to the definition of a NASCAR style door bar the GCR does say something about intruding into the cavity. My point being that a GCR NASCAR style door bar would necessitate door gutting at some level. You were claiming that my definition differed from someone elses and that a "GCR NASCAR bar/bars" could be installed without requiring gutting - if they don't intrude into the door's cavity they aren't GCR NASCAR bar/bars.

Ed.

[This message has been edited by turboICE (edited May 05, 2005).]

[jc836]

Our CRX is equipped with the "optional" NASCAR 'style' door bars on the driver's side-BUT they do not intrude into the door itself. This set is tightly fitted against the inner door panel. So-this arrangement does not allow one to gut the door, but provides more strength to the cage. If one looks at a NASCAR car you will see that the construction of the bars in their case would require gutting of the door be it driver or passenger side. Our passenger side does have 2 bars, one of which is angled and the other is horizontal. I have a bit of difficulty with the idea that an X-brace is going to be any better unless it is heavily gusseted.


------------------
Grandpa's toys-modded suspensions and a few other tweaks
'89 CRX Si-SCCA ITA #99
'03 Dodge Dakota Club Cab V8-Patriot Blue gonna tow

[This message has been edited by jc836 (edited May 05, 2005).]

[turboICE]

Not sure what the difficulty here is.

GCR 22.1. provides a clear definition of NASCAR style bars in the context of SCCA rules.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">NASCAR-Style Door Bars -If installed, shall consist of one or more sidebars that intrude into the door cavity and connect the main hoop to the front hoop</font>emphasis added

If a bar is not intruding into the door cavity it is NOT a NASCAR-style bar under the GCR. It is just a regular old side bar.

[ddewhurst]

***If a bar is not intruding into the door cavity it is NOT a NASCAR-style bar under the GCR. It is just a regular old side bar.***

Ok Ed, so it's just an bent up ol bar that looks similar to the GCR NASCAR BAR. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif There is a rule that spec's that you can put additional bars in the cage tell hell freezes over. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/biggrin.gif

Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David

[Tom A]

On a somewhat related note, on a car with small vent windows (specifically an ITB GTI), can the glass be replaced with a piece of lexan with a NACA duct?

Something like this:
http://www.specmiata.com/images/karlsduck.jpg

I saw a few Miatas with this at the Thunderhill licensing school in March.

Thanks,

Tom

[Bryan Watts]

Tom...those vents are specifically allowed in the Spec Miata rules. Rule 17.1.9.C.7.i in the SMCS to be exact. There's no such allowance in the ITCS that I know of.

[turboICE]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Ed, you can do GCR type NASCAR bars in the passenger side doors today. You can not gut the door or glass.

Bryan Watts, are you approx 25 years young & the guy who raced WKA Karts in the past.

Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David

[This message has been edited by ddewhurst (edited May 04, 2005).]

David, you made a false comment, I pointed out the error - if you can't gut the passenger door, then you can't put in GCR NASCAR style bars in the passenger side. Not sure why the persistence that I have read the rules incorrectly and you have nailed them dead on in your first response to my note.

You can keep throwing -any number of additonal bars desired- at me in an effort to some how avoid acknowledging the validity of the point of my letter to the committee. If you don't agree with me request fine, but continuing to persist that I am in some way misguided because I just don't understand has become pointless. Clearly I have shown an undestanding of the rules and have made a request. Your solution of bars that look like GCR NASCAR bars but aren't doesn't work for me.

------------------
Ed.
240SX ITA

[Matt Rowe]

turboICE, Just as a clarification the rules for passenger safety equipment for PDE vehicles is intended to insure belts, seat construction and arm restraints are similar between the passenger and driver. Door bar requirements were not intended to be an issue. As this is an issue with the Time Trials rules we (the Time Trial Administrative committee) will clarify it. I don't see any reason to change the IT rules for something that isn't an IT issue.

In the meantime if you have a problem with using a particular car at a particular event contact me and I can work some key people to address the issue and do everything possible to make sure we don't keep you from participating.

------------------
~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[ddewhurst]

Ed, please respond after the CRB answers your letter request.

Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David

[jc836]

The word "style" appears to be the issue more than the rule itself. I think we all agree that for IT cars-we cannot gut or in any other way penetrate the passenger door with bars in any arrangement. Denver/Topeka agrees that what I did is allowed even though the functionality is not the same on the driver's side for a door that is gutted. Just another thought.

I cannot host and do not know how to post pictures-but have a set if anyone is interested in our solution. Just e-mail me.


------------------
Grandpa's toys-modded suspensions and a few other tweaks
'89 CRX Si-SCCA ITA #99
'03 Dodge Dakota Club Cab V8-Patriot Blue gonna tow

[turboICE]

Originally posted by Matt Rowe:
turboICE, Just as a clarification the rules for passenger safety equipment for PDE vehicles is intended to insure belts, seat construction and arm restraints are similar between the passenger and driver. Door bar requirements were not intended to be an issue. As this is an issue with the Time Trials rules we (the Time Trial Administrative committee) will clarify it. I don't see any reason to change the IT rules for something that isn't an IT issue.

In the meantime if you have a problem with using a particular car at a particular event contact me and I can work some key people to address the issue and do everything possible to make sure we don't keep you from participating.

Thank you for the response. I will readily admit that I was exploring what a PDE tech could infer what was included in term "safety equipment". I didn't view it as that large a stretch that the type of cage protection was included within the definition, though a definition was not given. And since Touring rules require a driver side NASCAR-style bar, I assumed that SCCA was viewing those as having more safety than other non-intrusive style door bars. As with any rules any clarification is appreciated on generic terms such as safety equipment.

Having many friends who are instructors at PDE style events, many of whom had to suffer though instructing me at one time or another, I can fully appreciate and support equal safety protection for them under the rules.


Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Ed, please respond after the CRB answers your letter request.

Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif


Will do on both items. If I am wrong, I will gladly take the educational input, as any improvement in my understanding of the rules is a positive event. I believe that NASCAR-style bars are an improvement in safety, but they would currently be prohibited under the current prohibition on passenger side door gutting.



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Ed.
240SX ITA

[turboICE]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Ed, please respond after the CRB answers your letter request.

Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David



David, is this sufficient?

http://www.scca.com/_FileLibrary/File/05-0...09-fastrack.pdf (http://www.scca.com/_FileLibrary/File/05-09-fastrack.pdf)


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Ed.
240SX ITA

[This message has been edited by turboICE (edited July 27, 2005).]

[ddewhurst]

Ed, don't ask me how I ended up on this topic again. In past posts I completely missed the rule words "intrude into door cavity" when refering to the NASCAR passenger side protection. I am sorry for my error in conversation with you. If your memo to the BoD pushed this for the passenger side protection thanks. Good job http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/biggrin.gif

Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David



[This message has been edited by ddewhurst (edited July 27, 2005).]

[turboICE]

There were no problems here. I had read the rules to mean no NASCAR bars on the passenger side (and their intro to the change indicates that was their belief as well) and wrote to ask them to change it and to permit the necessary gutting. I am sure I was not the only one they have ever heard from on the topic.

If I was wrong in my interpretation I definitely wanted to know and wanted to be told - people read plenty of things differently. If I knew for a fact I wouldn't need to post here. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

Building a new car this winter has me really interested in changes being made that will help me plan it out. There are a lot of things I want different than my current car that is for sure.

------------------
Ed.
240SX ITA

[ddewhurst]

Ed, I toasted a 1st gen RX-7 two weeks ago. As I strip the car for another build I continue to find amazing damage. & I have more looking to do. In short, both motor mounts are broke, the transmission mount is broke, the complete chassis in front of the fire wall is twisted towards the drivers side along with pushed rearward on the passengers side with the passengers side sub frame stuffed upward maybe 4 inches into the footwell area. As I continue to inspect the overall damage it takes me back to the stories of the NASCAR drivers who had MAJOR accidents & the way to strong chassis in the front of the cars. The drivers bodys took the brunt of the crash rather than the chassis. The chassis strength stood up well beyond the forces of the crash. I understand the super strong chassis is intentional for a rigid platform. Nothing in life is free......

Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David

ps: Disconnect the drive shaft, the water hoses, a few electrical wires & the motor will fall out. The motor is just sitting on the front cross member & the transmission cross member. The forces of a crash are unbelievable untill one inspects the damage.

[This message has been edited by ddewhurst (edited July 28, 2005).]

[turboICE]

Just what I needed to hear as I go to an instructor clinic and then double race - while I still have Isaac on my list of to buys!

Best of luck with the salvage.

Fortunately we don't need to worry about the front not absorbing impacts since we can't stiffen or tie the front in - I do like a sound structure around my body though!

------------------
Ed.
240SX ITA

[This message has been edited by turboICE (edited July 28, 2005).]